TNG Interview with Dr. Gary Habermas

Best-selling author, speaker, and advocate for Christian apologetics, Dr. Alex McFarland. Best-selling author and apologist, Dylan Burrows.

Together bringing you truth for a new generation, this is TNG Radio. Did Jesus Christ really rise from the dead? Did Jesus Christ really even exist?

Did the Jesus we read about in the New Testament really live? Those are important questions, and we'll tackle these today on TNG Radio. Alex McFarland here with Dylan Burrows. And, you know, Dylan, we do a lot of shows. We do several, you know, probably a hundred recordings throughout the year, but I've never been more excited than I am today about the guest that we'll interview. And these are important questions that people are asking about the reality, the authenticity of Jesus in the New Testament. Aren't you excited about the subject matter we have today and our guest?

Yes, I'm excited. I'll let you introduce him more, but Dr. Gary Habermas is a professor at Liberty University. He's considered the world's foremost expert on the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ, so it's our honor to have him with us and to talk with him today.

Well, and let me say this just by way of introduction. People who have been to Truth for a New Generation conferences, people who have heard us together on James Dobson's radio program and so many other contexts, you probably know Gary Habermas as the great author and researcher on the resurrection, the ancient evidence for the life of Christ, but Angie and I know him as somebody who has immeasurably shaped our life. And I will say this, I give God the glory, but as a minister, as an apologist, just in the service of the gospel, a big part of who I am is due to the investment of Gary Habermas. Dr. Habermas, we just appreciate you so much taking time to be on TNG radio. Well, Alex, I'm so humbled to even hear that. In a way, it's hard to hear someone praising you, because I think to myself, yeah, that's not me.

But thank you so much for all you share. We go back a long way, and I am so thankful for you guys' ministry and what you've done for the gospel of Jesus Christ. Well, you know, I'm more excited than ever. I think about 22, now going on 23 years ago when I graduated from Liberty under your program, and I was enthused then, but I am more enthused than ever.

I'm more excited than ever about sharing the gospel with the world and how hungry people are, especially young people. So I guess I'll begin with this question. When you got into apologetics, and you began to teach at Liberty, and you began to research and write, did you ever envision Christian apologetics kind of becoming the cultural juggernaut that it currently is?

Actually, not at all. I spent five years at a couple other schools before Liberty, but I've been at Liberty since 81, and when I came in 81, it seems like I spent a lot of time with students dealing with the, is apologetics even biblical question? And now, it wasn't a large percentage of students, but to me, the small fraction, I mean, 15, maybe 20 percent, when I came here from other places, I was appalled is too strong a word, but I was really surprised that people who were biblically motivated and biblical thinkers couldn't seem to find apologetics in the Old and New Testaments and kept asking, why do we need this? Why should we just assert it and preach it's true?

Well, if that was the focus, 15 or 20 percent maybe in 1980-ish, you're exactly right. I'm almost 30 years, sorry, almost 40 years later, I'm told by publishing houses regularly, it's the hottest topic in their publishing line. Alex, you started, you started these citywide apologetics crusades way back in North Carolina, as I say, back in the day, and I was there with you for the first one in Greensboro, as I recall. It was fantastic. But now, Alex, look around the country and see how many big conferences are doing these citywide rallies with, you know, a thousand or two thousand or more.

I was just in one not terribly long ago with 3,000 people. It just, it is amazing how far it's spread, and that to me is very exciting. Well, it is, it really is, and for those that are not aware, apologetics is not apologizing, it's not saying I'm sorry or anything like that, but it's giving a reasoned defense for the faith, and we believe that compelling lines of evidence do point to the reality of God and the Bible and Jesus Christ, and you know, I think about this, we actually first used the word truth for a new generation, or the phrase, rather. In 1994, I was still a Liberty student, and we were doing a youth event, but it was a small, you know, 150 people, but like you say, when we rented the Greensboro Coliseum, that was kind of a real quantum leap, but Gary, speak to this if you would, because I think apologetics has been used by God because it does unify the body of Christ to a degree, and I remember I went around to all these pastors and youth pastors and Christian schools, and I said, listen, imagine if a theology lecture and a Billy Graham crusade could be combined.

That's kind of what we're after. It's going to be evangelistic, but it's going to be discipleship, and we're going to win the lost and equip the saved, and so many people said, you know, that'll never work, but it worked, didn't it? It's amazing, I cannot think of two topics, I mean I'm prejudiced, this is the area I work in, at least the apologetics area, and I can't think of a two-fold theme that is more important than what's the Gospel and what kind of commitment do people make to get in the door, so to speak, and then secondly, how are they equipped, because, Alex, part of this is, it's not just that Christians are energized since the 1980s and moving ahead and wanting apologetics, but the non-Christian world is incredibly energized, and to me, all you've got to do is write a blog on a Christian topic, especially one of the ones you already mentioned, Did Jesus Live?, and count, and it's possible that 80%, 70% of your reactions will be from fairly angry, atheist-sounding, skeptical people who are incredibly energized today, so I think this is kind of required at the church to be able to give answers. Well, that's certainly the case, and it's exciting to us that Liberty University has had such a large part in the development of apologetics in America and beyond over the past generation, and you have personally been a big influence in that, and in a moment after our break, we're going to come back and talk more about Liberty's role and your role in particular in seeing apologetics and worldview grow and become the phenomenon that it is nationwide and worldwide today, and so if you've just joined us, we're here with Dr. Gary Habermas from Liberty University.

We'll be back in a moment to talk more about apologetics, so stick with us here at Truth 4 and New Generation Radio. Christians don't necessarily agree with one another when it comes to questions of religious pluralism, homosexuality, the role of government, abortion, and war. Too often we manage these disagreements by ignoring them, yet we're called to engage the world for the sake of Christ.

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The 21 Toughest Questions Your Kids Will Ask, the book, study guide, and video series, you'll find it at AFASTORE.net. You know, in 2 Peter 1, verse 16, regarding the gospel of Jesus Christ, it says, We have not followed cleverly devised fables when we have made known unto you the power and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. So welcome back to TNG Radio, a man that's dedicated his life to telling the world about the evidence for Jesus is Dr. Gary Habermas from Liberty University, and we're so glad to have him on the program now. And before we resume our conversation with Dr. Habermas, Dylan, let's talk a little bit about Liberty. I know the website is Liberty.edu, and it's a great school.

I graduated from there, and let's give people a little info about the programs they've got. Well, certainly, Dr. Habermas, you're the one who's been foundational in so much of what Liberty has done over the years with apologetics. And now they've grown from having just one program to, you told us, seven different programs in apologetics. Give us a little bit of a taste of what people can experience if they're looking to study apologetics at Liberty University.

Well, thanks for asking that question, fellows. I currently teach full-time in, I guess you'd say, our crown jewel of the seven programs I teach in the PhD program in theology and apologetics, and we require courses in such areas like the resurrection of Jesus and Christian worldview and method and things like that and a bunch of electives. But that's PhD level. We also have another doctorate, a D-min, a pastoral doctorate with apologetics flavor concentration, but we also have...THM is a four-year master's degree. We've got one of those. We've got an MDiv, three-year masters, an MA in apologetics, and even at the undergraduate level, we have a BA and an AA, an associate of arts, all with apologetics concentrations or majors.

So anything from AA all the way up to a D-min and finally to a PhD. So it's amazing, because here at the school I talked about earlier, we're a fair percentage, a small percentage, but a fair percentage of students saying this is even biblical to a school today that has these more than half-dozen programs presenting the gospel in a way that is, I think, highly evidential. And that's phenomenal, and it's not just on campus, Liberty is leading the way online as well, isn't that correct?

Oh, it is. I mean, I read an article, it was a secular article, nothing to do with being written by Liberty, and increasingly schools have online presences, state universities, big schools have online, and this article was probably getting close to five, six, seven, eight years ago, and it listed Liberty as the fourth largest university in the US, fourth largest university in the entire country, and again, a secular station, and you have to count distance students, and the number fluctuates, but we frequently, with the up and down with how many distance students we have in particular, we've frequently been over 100,000 students. So I mean, when you think about where that started with the distance in the 80s, it has come a long way. And you know what's really cool, as a Liberty alum myself proudly, so traveling the country literally every weekend, literally everywhere I go, Dr. Habermas, people come up and they say, hey, hey, I'm a Liberty alum too, class of 99, you know, class of 79, you know, and God's hand has really been upon it, and I think, and I'll say this segueing to some different content here, I think part of the reason that God has blessed Liberty and is blessing Liberty is because from Elmer Towns, Harold Wilmington, and of course Dr. Falwell, up through yourself in the very present day, Liberty has been based on the Word of God, true to the Gospel, and God has blessed you guys in light of that. I think you're right, the leadership here has been fantastic, and of course all of us just kind of want that to continue.

We want leaders who, well, go back to our earlier points in the early segment, Alex, people who fear the Lord, people who want the Lord to get the glory and the attention, people who are talking more about others than about themselves, people who want to bless people's lives. And the way I often see it is, I live on a small lake, in fact I'm looking out the side window here at the lake as I'm talking, and if I catch a big bass on that lake, and I've done that a very few times, too few, but I've done it a few times, I'll hold that bass up and I'll shout, I don't care if anybody's around, out on their property or not, if I caught a big bass, you're gonna know about it. If my team wins Super Bowl, you're gonna know about it. If our teams win this or that or something else, we get a big honor like that, you're gonna know about it, there's nobody to hear it. Well, every time I do that, when I talk about a bass, when I talk about my team, whatever that is, I wonder why we're not like that about the Lord sometimes, why don't we just as, are we, why are we not just bold to say, hey, I've got some news that could change your life, that could not just make life better in the present, but that says something for eternity.

I mean, that is the best message. Well, you know, as we pull away for a quick break, and folks, stay tuned, if you're just listening now, we're having a conversation with Gary Habermas, and, you know, one of the great things about the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15, the last verse of that chapter, 1 Corinthians 15, 58, in light of the resurrection, Paul says, Therefore be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, for you know your labor in the Lord is not in vain. Gary, isn't it just a joy and an incentive and a great motivator to know that because the tomb is empty, and Christ is alive, and he will return, and there is a great reunion day ahead, we can stand strong, we can stay in there, and be excited every day, because in a transient world, we're living in the realm of reality. We are. We are. You said it so well, Alex. I'll just make one statement. In the New Testament, basically the resurrection is related to every major area of theology and almost every major area of practice, but the theological doctrine that it's most related to is that because Jesus is raised from the dead, believers will be raised from the dead. So as He is, so we shall be, that theme takes it from Jesus to us, and again, what could be more exciting? I mean, we've got a break. Stay tuned.

TNG Radio is back after this. You know, Alex has been writing for many years, and one of his classic books is still great today, as a basic introduction to the Christian faith. It's called Stand, Core Truths You Must Know for an Unshakeable Faith. This book will help you help your teens get off the roller coaster of doubt and onto solid ground. You'll read about the six pillars of biblical Christianity. They are, one, inspiration of the Bible, two, the virgin birth, three, the deity of Christ, four, atonement, five, Christ's resurrection, and six, Christ's return. You know, Alex mixes it up with humor and stories he gleaned from decades of working with youth and encourages teens to build a foundation of faith that will stabilize their lives and help them take a stand for Christ.

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Stand Strong America is a guide to bring courage and hope for you, the Christian, wherever Christian books are sold. Welcome back to TNG Radio, and before we go any farther, let me say a very sincere Merry Christmas to everybody. I know this show will be airing around the country pretty near Christmas, and so wherever you are, we hope that you have a wonderful time, a joyous, Jesus-filled Christmas. And we would ask that you pray for this ministry and consider Truth for New Generation in your giving. We have five major citywide events planned for 2019, and even as we record this, our board is working on a lot of the logistics behind what all we do, publishing events, broadcasting, all with a desire to evangelize the lost and equip the saved, to publish, broadcast, and do events, and to win the lost and equip the church. So keep us in prayer. Know that we're so grateful for you, for all that pray for us.

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We really appreciate it. And as we come back to our guest today, Dr. Gary Habermas from Liberty University, we have been blessed with this discussion about how apologetics has made such a comeback. But this is something that still confronts our headlines today. Even this month, we're looking at these atheist billboards that come out around the holidays that say Jesus wasn't even real. But that's something that doesn't even connect with what the scholarship says, says it, Dr. Habermas. Give us this information that you talked about before the segment about the idea that even the leading... Yeah, there's a real break here.

There's a catch-22. Increasingly, our naturalistic, educated world likes to say they're in tune with scholarship, and I'm sure the crowd that says Jesus never lived and puts the billboards up, I'm sure they'd like to say all the scholars agree with them. But Bart Ehrman, who calls himself an atheist New Testament scholar, and that's his title for himself, and he is probably the best-known skeptic in the country. And he says in his book, Did Jesus Exist? He says, if I remember the line correctly, he says that of all the thousands of professors in religion and cognate subjects that people who teach in colleges, universities, and seminaries, he says to his knowledge, not a single one of them would teach that Jesus never lived.

Not a single one. And yet, the folks who are trumpeting this stuff the loudest, that Jesus never lived here at Christmastime, they're saying that loudly, and they want people to think that scholarship agreed them, and Bart Ehrman kind of called them out, and interestingly enough, a lot of them were not very happy with him. I mean, I imagine they felt kind of betrayed, because, you know, he should be one of the ones saying, No, no, no, you're right, but he said, actually, no, no, no, you're all wrong, if you're judging by university professors who teach you subjects.

And I think that's really damaging, this often angry, loud, you know, group that claims to be speaking for scholarship, and they're not. And you know, Dr. Habermas, not only the reality that Jesus existed, but even the empty tomb. And I remember in your book, The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus, that you wrote, if I recall, you wrote with Michael Acona, also one of our best friends in the ministry. But in that book, you said something like 75 percent of historical scholars accept the empty tomb as an historical fact, and the majority of non-believing scholars accept such facts, and not just Christian scholars.

Am I remembering that book right? That's correct, and in a secular example, your second comment there, Michael Grant, the Roman historian, said that if we apply to the empty tomb the normal historical rules that we apply to any event, he says you really don't have any options other than to accept the historicity of the empty tomb, and that's a secular historian. So yeah, the number is about 75 percent, and you know what's amazing is that about 20 points higher than that, and then 90 percentile are the number of scholars who say, now I'm watching my words here carefully, but they would say that after the death of Jesus, his early followers, his earliest followers, Bart Ehrman said we can get it right back to the cross, he actually says that, that the earliest followers proclaimed that they had experiences that they believed were appearances of the risen Jesus, and you could say, well yeah, they believed that. But the point is, they taught that, that they really saw the risen Jesus, and they devoted their whole life to that teaching. Let me ask you this, how urgent is it that churches and families and believers know these things, be familiar and teach these things, and how can they begin to do that?

Well, I think it's very urgent, Alex, and I think it's very relevant. We often kind of crawl in a copy hole and are embarrassed of being called out or said you don't have any evidence or whatever, but there's an incredible amount of evidence for Christianity. I mean, we have more evidence we need, we frankly do, and if Christianity is truly the best word in the world, that someone could have eternal life today, and here we are at Advent season, it's one thing to have this fantastic message, it's also something else to say that it is so incredibly highly evidenced from an incredible number of different perspectives. You have evidence coming in from almost ten, heavy evidence from almost ten different perspectives, data that skeptics will often acknowledge.

We've got the best evidence in the world, but the most evidenced religious message. Amen. You know, and we're almost out of time, I want to say to everyone listening, you know, really there are only two people in the world, those who have Christ or those who need Christ, and we want you to know that Jesus Christ is real and He loves you, and God is not mad at you, God isn't trying to hold you at arm's length. Friend, Jesus is as close by as a prayer, and no better time I can think of than here at Christmas, when we commemorate the incarnation of Christ, call on Jesus and open your heart to Him, He'll forgive your sins, He'll restore your joy, He will heal whatever wounds you might carry, turn to Jesus, and you will find that He is everything, not only that we say He is, but He's everything that the Word of God promises that He is. And Dylan, isn't that the truly, truly great news, the good news here at this time?

Amen. There's no better time than now, and a thank you to Dr. Gary Habermas being with us, you can find out more about him at GaryHabermas.com, that's H-A-B-E-R-M-A-S.com, and to find out more about Liberty, go to Liberty.edu and find out more about the programs they have available to help you and your family grow in your walk with God. Thanks for being with us, we'll be with you next time here at Truth For A New Generation Radio. Truth For A New Generation, in association with Alex McFarland Evangelistic Ministries, exists to equip Christians with a Biblical worldview through conferences and camps. For information about upcoming events, visit TruthForAnewGeneration.com or give us a call at 877-YES-GOD-1. That's 877-YES-GOD and the number 1. TNG radio is made possible by the friends of Alex McFarland Evangelistic Ministries, P.O. Box 10231, Greensboro, North Carolina 27404. That's P.O. Box 10231, Greensboro, North Carolina 27404. Or give online at AlexMcFarland.com or TruthForAnewGeneration.com. Thanks for listening and join us again next time as we bring you more Truth For A New Generation on TNG Radio.