You know, I've realized I'm kind of picky when it comes to Bible translations. Yeah, you are, because you're the guy that underlines half the page and then argues with the footnotes. And I'm a good arguer. But, you know, I care about two things, faithfulness to the original text and just being able to read it without feeling like I'm reading a dictionary. Which is why we're grateful for the support of the Christian Standard Bible.
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I mean, you know, because all throughout the scriptures, Jesus is actually teaching: hey, when your brother sins against you, here's how you do it. Even the Lord's Prayer: forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. You know, it's presupposing we're going to have conflict. We're gonna need forgiveness. And surely in the family unit, we as parents are gonna have to say, I'm sorry.
Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson. And I'm Ann Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today. I feel like for me, and I want to know because I got two moms in the studio, my wife Ann and Melissa Krueger's back with us.
Often my contentment, joy in life was based on how well they were doing. What? No, this is mine. I felt like you were always great. Like, well, they're great.
They're fine. But that was called denial. That's where I lived.
So secretly, you were fearful? Oh, for sure. And if they're doing well, it was like, I'm good because they were sort of the source of my happiness, not my God. I think every parent would say that. I don't know, Melissa, is that true for you?
Yes. I mean, you had to battle it. I mean, but it was that was the place that was the easiest to kind of go to, default to. I mean, there's a saying, you're only as happy as your least happy kid. And I do talk about that in the book because I basically say that's a lot of pressure to put on the least happy kid.
I want to talk about that because I know we've put that pressure on our kids. And I. When my joy and contentment is based on the actions of my kids or the things they're doing, what is that communicating? And what does that say about myself? And even.
I walk and trust with God. It's just even convicting when I say that. Just to say it's convicting. I know. It is conv it's convicting to us all.
Yeah, I think we're all tempted to put our contentment in places that can't hold the weight of it. You know, I mean, maybe in other seasons of life, it was money or marriage or marriage or getting the perfect house. But then children come along and there's no bigger place we're tempted to say, this is where I'm putting all my eggs in the basket of contentment. And I just, I want to say to us as parents, we have to fight it because that temptation is going to be there. And it seems like such a good thing.
It does. It feels like a godly thing. Yes. And of course, in our hearts, it's right to want the best for our kids.
So I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is I can't put my joy and my peace and my contentment in how my child's doing. And I think people are like, how do I not do that? Yeah. And in your book, Parenting With Hope, which is raising teens for Christ in a secular age, you really do a great job.
I told Ann when I was reading this, I'm like, Ann, this is the book we should have wrote. Our parenting book. It is so good. I'm telling, listeners, I'm telling you, it's one of the best parenting books. And I've read a lot of them, and we wrote one.
And I'm telling you, this is a book you want to get. Especially with teens. Yeah, but you mentioned this, you talk about quite a bit. The idols. And this is so explain that.
This is insightful for parents. Yeah. I wrote, I started with the premise: you think I'm going to tell you how to get your child sorted. It's really about, I think, the biggest. Problem in our parenting of teens is our own idolatry.
And by idol, I don't mean, you know, a little statue that we bow down and worship. I'm talking about where we put our hope, our trust. What do we think success looks like for our teen? And I think that can be, there can be a lot of those, you know, but I think in our culture today in the West, the things pushing in on us as parents are scholastic achievement, sports, and activities, and social acceptance. And these three things are these cultural idols.
They're out there. We can see them everywhere, right? Everyone has a pitching coach at five now. You know, I mean, so we see it in sports for sure. Yeah.
We see it. And the whole reason I would say that the sports culture rose was because you need to be well-rounded so that you can get into a really good school. Why do we care if they get into a really good school? Because studies have shown that kids who go to college have a higher income. And better life satisfaction.
I don't even know if they say that, but they definitely say higher income. And we associate higher income with better life satisfaction. And then we have this whole social acceptance pressing in on us to be culturally normal. In our culture right now, that looks like accepting and tolerant of every type of behavior that there is. And so those things are pressuring our teens.
But they're really pressuring us as parents. And it is a lot to bear. I mean, I'll be honest. I mean, things like the cell phone and what that's doing to our kids, that's part of that social connectedness that we're told we have to do with our teens right now. And so to push and be different.
Is really tough. But I think these three things are pressing in on us, and we're in the stream, and we don't even know we're just floating along and we're going downriver, and we're going right along with culture because they're not overtly bad. You know, we tend to think it's sex, drugs, rock and roll. That's our battle, the old school battle. I actually think it's these really good things that become God things in our life.
It's just they get in our heart in a way that they're not supposed to be, and they really rob us of joy. Yeah, we see it over and over. They just rob us of joy. If my kid doesn't get in that school, if they don't make that team, if they aren't in the right group of friends. And then our kid feels the weight of that.
And so, because they actually do love us. They love what we love? Even though they might act like they don't love us, they actually tend to follow the same idols of their parents. One of the verses that I fear the most is in 2 Kings. It says, while they were worshiping the Lord, they were serving their idols.
And their children and their grandchildren did the same.
So they're worshiping the Lord, but they're serving their idols, and their children and their grandchildren did the same. I mean, you mentioned in the book about having a conversation with your kids and ask them what's important in our family. I don't know if that's exactly how you said it, but that's how I read it. We did that once. Maybe a couple of times, but I remember we sat at dinner table.
We had three teenage boys. And mind you, we're in ministry. Dave's a pastor. All we talk about is Jesus, I felt like.
So we assumed certain things would be said. Number one answer. Sports I would have told you that's not going to be true of our family. I mean, I'm the Detroit Lions chaplain, so obviously it makes some sense. My job was related to sports world.
But it was clear to them, like, it's not just dad's ministering to pro athletes. This is what we do. I remember when my youngest, who ended up getting a college scholarship, and he's the one that got to the NFL.
So he's a really gifted athlete. I remember at five years old, a soccer coach wanted him to play soccer. He wasn't playing soccer, he was playing baseball. And this guy said to me, We really want Cody to play. And I'm like, Yeah, we've, we're doing three sports.
You know, we've, he goes, Let me tell you, if he doesn't get on my team, he will never get a college scholarship. I go, He's five years old. I think he was six years old. He's, are you kidding me? He's like, You are making the biggest mistake ever.
You got to get rid of it. I'm like, This is a culture we're fighting as parents. Like, and you think if you're not on that travel baseball team, your son will never go to the next level. The pressure on parents is so intense. And it's hard because I played sports in high school.
You know, I don't know if you guys did, but those were great memories. Oh, yeah.
So, we want our kids to have those good things. And look, we all know we have an obesity problem in this country. I mean, for every level.
So we think, oh, well, sports are good for them. And they really are.
So I never want to say, hey, sports are bad. The culture around sports in America right now, I think, is really bad. That type of pressure, rather than, hey, Go in the backyard, play with the neighborhood kids.
Well, now there are no neighborhood kids to play with because they're all at travel baseball. Exactly. I mean, so it's a real problem. There's no one in the world. But a parent's thinking, but that's better than video games all day long all the time.
And I would actually agree with that. And so we've created this culture where those kind of good things, I think, are squeezing out really important things. I mean, I think now it's really hard for families to have family dinners. It's increasingly hard for kids to get to a youth group. It's even really hard for them to get to church because a lot of these travel teams take place on the weekend.
So, you're seeing what's happening. All these activities are squeezing out the things for life, is what I say. Because learning how to sit down and have dinner as a family with no phones on and have a conversation about how was your day, that's really important in the teen years. Did you guys do that? We actually did.
Our family time, though, what we prioritized was breakfast.
Now, we didn't actually eat breakfast at the table, but we all sat at the table. Everyone had to be at the table at a certain time in the morning. And that was when we prayed together and we read a devotional together. And I say that to people, and they're like, How did y'all make that happen? And I want to say it wasn't perfect.
There were days we missed, and it took 10 minutes. Yeah, it took 10 minutes. I had cards that had prayer requests for missionaries that we prayed for, for leaders in our life, for each person. We prayed for a different person. And, but what I can say about that time is.
I got to hear every one of my kids pray every week because every day a different person prayed.
So they were in the habit of praying for each other. We prayed for principals, we prayed for bosses, we prayed for presidents, we prayed for missionaries.
So it's interesting when these missionaries would come and visit, they'd be like, oh, that's Christine from Nepal. We've been praying for her. You know, and they actually, it builds community when you pray together. And so, here is something that takes 10 minutes. in the morning.
And it built so much community in our little family. And it didn't take that long, but I can tell you, it gets squeezed out by trying to get everything else in. And so that's just sometimes what I want to encourage: don't miss the really important rocks that your family desperately needs because you're trying to do what your neighbor's doing. You know, and it's not producing great results in our teens. They're anxious, they're fearful, they're scared.
And I think they're getting it from us. Yeah, me too. You know, because we're so invested in them. Yeah. That it's almost like our kids are bearing the weight of that.
Whereas, you know. The simple act of praying together as a family teaches them, yeah, the world is a scary place, but we're going to pray about that. And I've never seen my kids more desperate for prayer than in their teen years. They're very open. When you say, How can I pray for you?
They have a long list because they're dealing with a lot of pressures, a lot of anxiety, a lot of things at school that they're struggling with, or friendships, or classes. And so to ask that question, and we, Melissa, would food is always a gathering place. We would three boys. Yes. When we had breakfast together, it was like I made something, they would eat, but then we'd pray on the way to school.
That's good. And it just became a habit. And so putting those habits and rhythms in, I know it can sound daunting at first, but I like what you're saying. Like, just make some space. Maybe it's dinner or bedtime, something that you just take a few minutes to see what's going on.
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Now, here's my question for you, Melissa. How do we know if it's an idol? Yeah, I think that's something we've got to each pray about and think about. I find it's how I react when I don't get it. You know, if there's anger, frustration, tears, discontentment, you know, if it's robbing me of joy, that's sometimes a sign.
Maybe the problem is me. And it's also, here's the other thing. It's not just how I react when I don't get it. It's what I spend my time pursuing.
So I would say time, money, and thought life. What am I thinking about? I remember one time I heard a speaker who said, What do you think about when you're not thinking? I've heard that asked too. Isn't that a good question?
Yeah. What am I ruminating on? I've asked my kids that too. Yeah, it's a really good question. Then your kids will know.
Yeah. What you, what mom and dad. Oh, that's a good question. What do you think, as a parent, kids? What do you think I think about the most?
That's good. That's good. And you know, and I know some of these things, even what we were just talking about with trying to find family rhythms for spiritual growth, can seem daunting. And so I do want to say, if you haven't done those things, I think as moms, and I'm sure as dads, we carry around this weight of failure. Yes.
And so I do just want to say. Tomorrow's another day. Don't let what's happened in the past in your family be what. determines the future. I would go to my kids and say, let's say you've never had prayer together as a family and you've got teenagers.
I would just go to them and say, hey, I'm realizing this is something I missed as a parent. And why don't I want to say I'm sorry? Because there's a lot in this world we can't control. I'd really like us to pray together as a family. And I know that might feel so weird.
And I know y'all might think, what's going on with mom and dad? But it's something I should have prioritized a long time ago. Could y'all help me figure out a way that we could do this together as a family? It invites them in. It acknowledges, hey, maybe we didn't do it right.
And kids need to hear that from us. If I could say anything, we need to be good apologizers as parents to our teens. They are learning so much from our example in that, that we, I come to you and say, hey, I'm sorry I didn't do it right. I think the more we step into that, we can make changes in these years. Don't think you missed it.
And if you missed it in the teen years, you can still do it with your 20-year-olds. I'm so glad you said that. I was going to say the same thing of how to navigate that. And I would add this to consider it like trying to open a door to their heart of even empathizing with their life. Like, man, I can't imagine being a teenager in these days where the culture feels so chaotic, so crazy.
I can't imagine that's you carry a lot. I want to pray for you, I want to be able to be there and go to God for you on your behalf. Kids, whether they're believing in Jesus at that point or not, they're like, help me, somebody help me. Yeah, I know that our listeners have heard me say this, so I'll keep it short. But two of my sons said to me, as adult men and married now, Out of nowhere.
At a lunch, that I could tell, you know, at halfway through the lunch, oh, they've talked and they've set up this lunch, you know, and they both said. Yeah, we felt like the congregation was more important to you than us. Thousands of people were more important than And it was one of those moments mostly where it was like the second it came out of their mouth, I knew they were right. It wasn't like. I'm going to defend myself.
What do you mean? And I asked questions like, What do you mean by that? But it was one of those moments where I had to say, I'm so sorry. But what Anne just said, guess what? We're not done.
Even though they're not in the house anymore, I can still be a better dad for the next 20 years, and I'm going to do that.
So the apology, like you said, that is huge for our kids to hear us own up to our mistakes. That's right. And what a powerful moment it was for them to get to say it to you. Oh, man. And you to be able to say, Yeah, I'm sorry.
Dave's really good at receiving that kind of criticism. Criticism. And I know it. No, but not everybody is okay with hearing hard things from our kids. It is hard.
I'm not saying it was easy, but like you said, when we apologize, that vulnerability and humility opens up a relationship that they will lean into rather than lean away from. It's amazing. It really is when you get to, wow, doing what the Bible says to do actually works. I mean, you know, because all throughout the scriptures, Jesus is actually teaching, hey, when your brother sins against you, here's how you do it. And even the Lord's Prayer, forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.
You know, it's presupposing we're going to have conflict. We're going to need forgiveness. And surely in the family unit, we as parents are going to have to say, I'm sorry. What did you do for that devotional time in the morning? You said it only took a few minutes.
What exactly did you do? We did a lot of different things through the years. We found some good devotionals from different places that weren't actually about for teens. They were just general devotionals. You know, so we use some of those.
Tim Keller has some good ones, you know, just his on the Psalms. He has one on wisdom. Really short, but very biblical, really good. Right now we're using Aleister Begg's daily devotional. And so what I found, kids can actually go to that level.
You know, you don't have to have one, especially in the teen years. Maybe in the 10 or 11, you might do something a little more accessible for kids. But the teen years, you know, these kids are reading hard things in high school. And they're thinking deep things.
So they can really kind of rise to the occasion and really think through it. We've also just read through scripture. You know, I loved, we did the Gospel of John one year, and I said, hey, I want you to read this. I actually started it with. How do you tell a good lie?
And they were like, What do you mean? Yeah, how do you tell a good lie? I was like, What do you do if you're going to tell a good lie? And we talked about how you shouldn't tell many facts, you shouldn't name names, you should be really careful about how you tell a good lie. And I said, I want you to read the gospel accounts.
If they're telling a lie, they're really bad liars. They give way too many details. They tell cities they went to. They tell people they talked to. And I want you to think about that as we read through the Gospel of John.
We're all like, I want you to be my mom. Isn't that good? But you know, it's almost like you're doing apologetics with your kids. In secret. Yeah.
We should never assume that they know these things. I mean, I do feel badly. We did get my daughter got to college and she goes, Yeah, I realize I went through Christian school and was raised by y'all. And I don't know that I was ever taught how to study the Bible. And you're like, oops.
Okay, that's really bad. Because we did devotionals, but we never really talked about observation, interpretation, application.
So we all miss things, right? Of course. All of us miss things. And thankfully, she got to a college ministry where they're teaching how to actually study the Bible. We all need that.
Well, I think it's interesting. You know, we started talking about how our kids can be an idol. Really, their walk with God as Christian parents determine. is our happiness. I think a couple things.
One, I always used to preach this: idols never deliver. And even if they made the team or got all the A's or got this guy, it's like it still won't deliver. It'll still, you'll never be happy. But I think the thing we often forget, I forgot, is like the goal often for us as Christian parents is: I want a teenager who's walking with God so well. Like if they're 30 years old and walking with God, But they weren't at 15.
I'm good with that. And at 15, the mistakes they made were part of the things God used to get them to be a man or woman of God at 25 and 30 and 35. But when they're making those mistakes and they're in your house, you're freaking out because you think that's the end goal. No, it might be part of the way God's going to. That's what I would say to you.
We get so worried and fatalistic about the Mistakes our teens are making when, honestly, in the long run, that could be driving them to the father. It's such a short season. It's such a short season. This is the season, keep the door open. And one thing I'll say about that, though, is Rhonda, about what you just said.
Watch how you respond when other kids are doing bad things too. Oh, I was so bad at this. I was so bad at this. Go ahead, keep talking. What do you mean?
Your child is, if they hear you say, oh, Johnny, you know, I saw, I knew Johnny was going to go bad. And we all knew Johnny was bad. And, you know, and they hear this negative talk about your friend Johnny, who's doing these things and how he's, you know, not redeemable in some ways. If they make a mistake. How you talked about Johnny is how they're going to assume they're going to talk with them, that you would talk with them.
And so it's just something to be careful about. Like, rather, say, hey, maybe we should pray about Johnny. Because, you know, he really just needs to know Jesus. And he's on a journey. Yeah.
And let's just say the things going on today in school, like you have furries.
So kids are thinking they're animals and it's so easy. You know, the kids are transitioning. There's so much going on that you could roll your eyes about and be like, what? That is lunacy. What kind of kid you can make so many?
And I've shared this before too. One of our sons was talking about a boy, and here's what I said. Is that the guy, like that bad kid that smokes pot all the time? And so if we can respond with love and grace, just like all you have to do is read the gospels and see how Jesus responded because he dealt with everyone in the same manner. Yes.
Respectful, loving, drawing them to the Father. Yes. And this will sound impossible to be that kind of parent. And so what I always want to say to parents is the only way you become that kind of parent is abiding in this book. Yes.
Like we, that the fruit of the spirit is born by abiding. Jesus says, if you abide in me and my words abide in you, you're going to bear much fruit. It's not that you start putting this fruit on. You don't start tying it to your tree, so to speak. It's born, but he's given us one method by which this happens.
And that's we plant ourselves in his word. We pray. We're with the people in the church. That's that foundation we need. We want that for our kids, but in this season, that's what we need.
We need the word nourishing our soul. We need prayer to give us hope. We need the community of the church.
So we have people who will stand with us in this so that we'll know we're not alone. But that's the only way that happens. It's impossible to do it in our own strength. And let me just add: if you're listening and you're thinking, I need prayer so bad, you can contact us. We will pray for you.
We have a team that will pray for you. All you have to do is go to familylife.com/slash pray for me, and we will pray for you. Every parent needs that. Wow, that was another great conversation with Melissa Kruger. Yeah, and again, her book, which you need to get, or you know, somebody needs this book.
It's called Parenting with Hope: Raising Teens for Christ in a Secular Age. And you can get your copy right now by clicking the link in the show notes at familylifetoday.com. Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry celebrating 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most. Yeah.
