Hey there. Thanks for listening to the Greg Laurie Podcast, a ministry supported by Harvest Partners. I'm Greg Laurie, encouraging you.
If you want to find out more about Harvest Ministries and learn more about how to become a Harvest Partner, just go to harvest.org. Well, as you can see, we're doing something a little bit different today. We have the desk set up here. And by the way, this is called the Randy Alcorn desk. And let me tell you why, because the first time I interviewed Randy Alcorn, our guest that I'll introduce in a moment, in 2010, we needed something to do the interview at, so we built this desk. And we've used it many other times for other interviews, but we always call it the Randy Alcorn desk.
So we've got the guy himself back at his desk. But Randy Alcorn is a prolific author. He has written more than 40 books, including the book Heaven, which if you have not read this book, you ought to read it.
You ought to have one in your library. I think this is the finest book on Heaven I've ever read, and I've read quite a few. Also, he is the author of the book If God is Good that deals with human suffering. He is also the author of the gold medallion winning book, Safely Home.
And he has interviewed on radio stations and TV stations and writes a lot, but he doesn't get out and speak all that much. And so I'm really excited that he's taken time in his busy schedule to be with us today. Now let me explain what we're about to do. We're going to have a Bible study slash conversation. So you're not going to hear a sermon preached from a pulpit, but you're going to hear a sermon or maybe I should say multiple sermons in a discussion format as we dig in together. We're going to open the Word of God. We're going to read through it. We're going to talk about what it means with a man that knows his Bible.
And can speak authoritatively to topics like Heaven, suffering, and much, much more. So let's give a warm Harvest welcome to Randy Alcorn. Randy, thanks for coming back. Tell us a little bit about your family and where you live. I live in Gresham, Oregon, just east of Portland. Well, you know, it was raining when I came down yesterday, so I felt right at home. But then I've been married to my wife, Nancy, for 35 years and she's terrific. She was with me last time, wasn't able to make it this time, but it was really fun because though we have... One of our grown daughters lives just up the street from us and so we're around those grandkids all the time. My other daughter was married to one of the pastors at my home church, a church that myself and another pastor started 30-some years ago. But just three weeks ago, the whole family moved down to Upland. So yesterday on my grandson's seventh birthday, I was able to fly into Ontario Airport and be there for his birthday even though they had moved three weeks earlier. So thanks to Harvest, I was able to be with my grandson on his birthday.
That's fantastic. Well, let's just dive right in and talk about some very weighty issues. Let's start with the topic of suffering.
You know, it's been said there are two kinds of people in the world, those who are going through a crisis and those who will go through a crisis. It would be nice if we could live in a pain-free world and a suffering-free world, but of course that isn't the case. And you have written about this in your book, excuse me, of God is Good. And here's what you say, and this is how my voice will sound the rest of the time.
Sorry. So you wrote these words. Most of us don't give focused thought to evil and suffering until we experience them. This forces us to formulate perspective on the fly at a time when our thinking is muddled and we're exhausted and consumed by pressing issues. People who have been there will attest that it's far better to think through suffering in advance.
So Randy, here's a question. There's somebody listening to this right now watching this that has just gotten the worst news imaginable. The doctor has called them and said these tests have come back positive, you have cancer. Or they recently heard that their husband or wife is going to leave them. Or they got that call that a loved one has died and their world, it seems like their world has ended. And they have that muddled thinking, what now? And of course they're probably asking, why has this happened to me?
That's one person listening, but then there's other people listening that like things are going pretty well. You know, the sun's shining, the birds are singing, no problems on the horizon, everything's going according to plan. But suffering is either here or it's going to come. So talk about A, the why of suffering and B, how do you prepare for suffering? I remember many years ago hearing Ray Stedman say, woe to the man who must learn principles in the time of crisis. We need to learn those principles in advance.
And I was talking with Darrell Scott whose daughter Rachel was the first one killed at Columbine. And I asked him, how do you prepare for suffering? And his immediate response was become a student of the Word of God. God's Word prepares us because it teaches us that this is a world that's under the curse. So I think one of the best ways we can cope with suffering is to anticipate in advance it's going to come. As 1 Peter says, do not be surprised by the fiery ordeal you are experiencing as if something strange were happening to you.
I mean it's telling us, expect it. And any theology that tells us God's children don't suffer is a theology that is not of God, it's of the devil. Because the fact is that we are to prepare for suffering because God promises us. He who would live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. In the world you will have tribulation, Jesus said. Don't be surprised at that fiery ordeal.
Peter says we are going to experience it, we need to be prepared for it. Yes, but Job is probably one of the best examples of a man who suffered. He is always cited because so much calamity came into his life effectively in one day. Where he lost his livelihood, he lost people that worked for him, he lost his health. But the worst thing of all is he lost 10 of his children.
They were killed. But yet Job, we read in the book of Job that he worshiped. Job worshiped and said, naked came I into this world, naked go I out, blessed be the name of the Lord. And then he went on to say in Job 23, all that I know where I might find him, that I might come to his seat, I would present my case before him and fill my mouth with arguments. I would know, I would want to know the words he would answer.
So effectively Job is saying, I don't like this, I have my arguments, I have my questions. But then he goes on to say, when he has tested me I will come forth as gold. So what about the person that is facing tragedy and they have all those questions.
And then secondly, what did Job mean and what does it mean that we could come forth as gold? Well the questions that we have of the Lord, he doesn't mind our questions. We should bring them to him.
He has answers but he doesn't always have the answers that we want that are direct and exact. He gives us principles and basically calls upon, reveals himself and his character and calls upon us to trust him. And this is what happens when you face adversity, when you face suffering and we all do. God is using that in your life to purify you in the fire of adversity as gold is purified in the fire. And the New Testament picks up on that same thing. You see it in 1 Peter 1 in terms of being refined by fire as gold.
And then 1 Corinthians 3 talks about the wood and the hay and the stubble as opposed to the gold and the silver and precious stones and all of that. And then when I look at the life of Job who you mentioned, Greg, I see one of the fascinating things is at the end of Job 42 where it talks about Job's friends who haven't really been true friends in a lot of ways. Well they were for the first week because in the first week it says they said nothing. And their problems because they were real comfort to Job for that week and the problems started when they opened their mouths. But anyway it says then that after God restores Job's fortunes and blesses him and heals him and all that kind of stuff, it says everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. And then in verse 11 of Job 42, the last chapter it says, they comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the Lord had brought upon him. Now this is fascinating because this is not one of his friends talking.
This isn't like a quote from somebody who might be wrong. This is the inspired writer of the book of Job saying they consoled him over all the trouble the Lord had brought upon him. But then we look back and we say, but wait a minute, the Lord didn't bring that trouble on him. It was Satan who brought that trouble on him. Just like in 2 Corinthians 12, you know Paul says, my thorn in the flesh is a messenger of Satan. Yet he says, but it was given that I might not become conceited. Well Satan would want him to become conceited. God didn't. So God is seen as having his hand even in our suffering.
Wow. You know at the end, God blessed Job. He doubled the things that he had before. But what's interesting is he did not double the amount of children he had. And that's because his children were still alive.
He had children in heaven and children on earth. And we're going to talk more about that in a moment. But you mentioned this, that it was allowed by God. And we wonder, why does God allow these things in our lives?
And this brings us to the topic of the sovereignty of God. And a verse that is often quoted is Romans 8.28, coming back to Job's counselors. You know I know that when someone is suffering, we always want to say the right thing. And you look at those three counselors of Job and you talk about saying the wrong things at the wrong time.
And you know people will do that. They'll come and say, well, you know, cheer up. There's always someone worse off than you. Well that doesn't help.
Because there's always someone better off than you as well. Or if you've lost a child, people will actually say, do you have any other children? You might say yes. Oh well that's good.
Oh well yeah, you can spare a few here and there. You know, trust me, I've heard everything. After our son went to be with the Lord, people said amazing things to me.
Some helpful and some very unhelpful. And one question that someone said to me or a statement was, well, are you over it yet? They said this to me two weeks after it happened. And it's like, no. I just said, no, I'm not over it yet. And I don't know that I'll ever get over it.
I'm getting through it. But one thing that brings comfort to me, and I think all of us, is to know that there is a God in heaven that is in control of our lives. And that brings us to the topic of the sovereignty of God. Now, a verse that's often quoted when someone is suffering is, well, remember Romans 8.28, all things work together for good to those that love God, another called according to His purpose.
And that is totally true. And we should quote it. But what does that verse mean? I wonder if people fully understand the meaning of that verse. So maybe give us some explanation on Romans 8.28. Well, certainly, Romans 8.28, as you lead up to it, has talked about suffering. For instance, back in verse 18, it says, I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing. Yeah, turn to Romans 8, you guys, because we're going to look at this a little bit.
Are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. And then he talks about how the creation is in suffering. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.
It's like the animal kingdom, the suffering there. It's all looking forward to the redemption of the earth itself. Because remember, the ground was cursed, the earth itself was cursed. But the Bible promises God is going to make a new earth. He made the original earth, and we no longer live in Eden. And we don't live yet on the new earth.
We live in the in-between place. And so verse 20, for the creation was subjected to frustration. And that was the curse that the creation was put under. And then it says, God had a purpose though, even as he placed the curse. His intention was that ultimately the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay.
And brought in the glorious freedom of the children of God. It's saying, hey, the whole creation fell on our coattails, it's going to rise on our coattails. Verse 22, we know that the whole creation has been groaning. Not just human beings, the whole creation.
It's just not right. You look around you, you look at animal suffering, you look at natural disasters. You look at people suffering and dying and you say, this is just so wrong. And God is saying, right, and that's the consequences of sin. And that's one thing we should think about when we look at suffering.
That's how bad sin really is. And that will help us appreciate the amazing grace of God. That he would take that suffering due to us for our sin and take it upon himself.
So that one day in heaven when we see him, we will not be able to say, and should not say now if we really understand. Well, God, it's like you just didn't care. And then can you just imagine him stretching out his hands, you know, nail pierced, the scars. And saying, do these look like the hands of a God who does not care?
I mean, he's given himself for us. So the whole creation has been groaning, anticipating the deliverance that's going to come. And verse 23, we ourselves who have the first fruits of the Spirit, we groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as children, the redemption of our bodies.
Isn't this interesting? This says God's children groan presently. Oh, have you ever had the thing where, oh, just we should all be smiley, you know, Christians. And at every moment, and it's kind of a fake it till you make it type thing where we were just so smiley.
You know what? If you're just so smiley all the time and you're never groaning inwardly because of the suffering of this creation, it's probably because you're an out of touch, insensitive person. There's a time where you need to just say, look, I can have the joy of the Lord, but that joy is not a superficial happiness based on how well things are always going. It's a joy that is rooted in Christ as I look to him, the author of my salvation, and I believe his promises that he is at work in this world sovereignly, he is going to cause all things to work together for good, but right now there's a lot of suffering in my life and many other lives.
How can I serve you today, Lord, and represent you accurately and humbly, not in some triumphant way all the time as a Christian, but really ministering to people who have great needs. For in this hope we are saved, but hope that's seen is no hope at all. Hope anticipates, and this isn't, when you see the word hope in Scripture, it's not wish.
It's not wish, it's this hope, it's a blood-bought reality. Jesus Christ made it so that forever we would be delivered of our suffering, and then it says in the same way, verse 26, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We don't know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. God so identifies with us his beloved children. The Holy Spirit within us groans with us. You could say, wow, even God is not happy, even God is burdened by the condition of this world, but he paid the price and redemption's coming, and he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will. Do you love having people who are prayer warriors that pray for you? Well, how about the Holy Spirit of God praying for you? You think he's a prayer warrior?
Yeah. I mean, that is so encouraging, and then that all builds up to verse 28, and we know, we know based upon everything he's already said, we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him who have been called according to his purpose. We know that in all things, each and every thing, God is at work. In all things means in the original Greek, in all things.
All things, no exceptions. God is at work in those things, called according to his purpose for those whom God foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his son. So God is using our trials and our suffering to conform us to the image of Christ, to make us more like Jesus, to draw people to us, because you know what? People are not drawn to faith in Christ because God rewards his children with the finest houses and the finest athletic success, and we drive the finest cars, and our lives are just always happy. People are drawn to Christ as they see someone who is facing the realities, the sufferings of life.
Somebody like them, except they're responding with a supernatural sense of grace and faith and trust, and then they're drawn toward that. That is the way that we exemplify Christ, and that's what God brings to our suffering. So does Romans 8, 28, when it says all things, does all things include suffering? They don't just include suffering.
That's primarily what they're about, suffering. Paul and Silas are a great example of that. I mean, they're thrown into a prison, and we read at midnight, Paul and Silas begin to sing praises to God. The prisoners listened, and of course the earthquake came, and the jailer was about to kill himself, and Paul said, do yourself no harm, we're all still here, and what does he say?
Sirs, what must I do to be saved? It was their testimony, their songs in the night, that won him over this hardened Roman jailer that cruelly beat them himself, and then he ended up washing the stripes in their back and took them to his home and so forth, but it is a powerful testimony when we can glorify God in times of extreme adversity, and you mentioned verse 29, whom he foreknew he predestined to be conformed into the image of his own dear son. It seems to me, Randy, that God's end game is to make us like Jesus, not to make us happy as much as make us holy, but if we live a holy life, we'll live a happy life as a byproduct. You know, if you chase after happiness, you'll never be happy, but if you chase after holiness, or to be more specific, if you follow the Lord and put him first in your life and seek to be made like him, you'll know that adversity can accomplish God's purposes, but you know, when someone dies unexpectedly, and we all know that loved ones will die, we expect our grandparents to die. They're usually the first to go, then in time, our parents, and even though we expect it, it's still very hard when it happens, but then perhaps something unexpected, like a sibling dies, or a spouse dies, or a child dies, and they're young, and we think this isn't fair. You know, they had so much potential, so much promise, they had their whole life to live, and so we ask the question, well, was it their time?
And so here's my question to you. Once someone dies young, did they die before their time, as it's sometimes stated, or did they die at the appointed time, and is there an appointed time for death? In Psalm 139, the Lord says that the days of our life are determined in advance.
The days of our lives are appointed to us. Now, we never should take verses like that, and say, oh, well then that means that we shouldn't do anything to try to save somebody's life, because this is their appointed day. No, we should of course try to do what we can to save a life, but we should also say that even though to us, it seems like this person died before their time, that God had a time in mind, that God is sovereign. And you know there are Christians who argue so much for human responsibility, and for accidents, and for the power of Satan to bring disease an accident, and there are certain amounts of truth in that, but they fail to recognize the sovereignty of God. And you know, it's of no great encouragement, and no encouragement at all for me to think, in terms of if a drunk driver took the life of my child, my beloved one, then if I think that my child's life was in the hands of that drunk driver, or was in the hands of Satan, what am I believing about God? I'm not believing in a sovereign God. No, my child was in the hands of God. Now, God didn't do what I wanted him to do, folks, is there anything new about that? I mean, do you just write out a prescription for God, and if you have, how well has that worked for you? This is what my life is supposed to look like, Lord.
I mean, I have had many days where I've had great plans for that day, of what I was going to do over that week or that month, and then suddenly something happens, and they are completely radically changed. We either accept the sovereignty of God that he knows better than we do what we should be doing today, and he's sending us divine appointments, or we just say, God, you're really not in charge. So even with the death of a loved one, just remember this, God is preparing a place for us, but God is also preparing us for that place. That's what he's doing, and every time somebody that we know and love is taken to be with him, what I've found in my life, my heart is more prepared to leave this world and to go to heaven, because where your treasure is there, your heart will be also so many of my treasures. Greg, my friend who died as a teenager, Jerry, my best friend from childhood who died of cancer at age 38, my mom who died in 1981, shortly after I had had the joy of leading her to faith in Christ. You know, these people are waiting for me, and Jesus is going to extend, open his arms to me, and I'm also going to be reunited with God's people.
Yes, that's right. And Spurgeon said, dying is but going home. Indeed, there is no dying for the saints. You know, when a Christian dies, they go into God's presence.
They go into heaven. But where is heaven? You know, Paul talked about being caught up to the third heaven. So is heaven really far away, or is heaven closer than we think? That's a great question.
Not that any of your questions are less than great, but really because, you know, think about it. Where is heaven? Well, Paul talks about being caught in the third heaven. As you say in 2 Corinthians 12, he calls it paradise. Remember, Jesus said to the thief on the cross, today you will be with me in paradise.
Now, there's an example of somebody who couldn't do anything to work for his salvation. It's the thief on the cross. Today you will be with me in paradise because you've looked to me, and we need to look to Jesus. But what is this place?
Where is this place? Well, remember in 2 Kings chapter 6, where Elisha is praying, and he says, Lord, open your servant's eyes. Now, what does the servant see when God opens his eyes? He sees right around him chariots of fire and horses and angelic warriors. Now, did God just create those and make them there so the servant could see them? No, they were already there. The servant just didn't have the eyes to see them. Right now, we're surrounded by angelic forces.
There is a world next door. You could make the case that heaven is far closer than we imagine instead of remotely being way out there somewhere, being more of a universe next door so that when a person dies and leaves this world, they have a very short trip. They're taken by the angels as Lazarus was, but then they go right into the very presence of God. Yeah, the Bible says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Paul says I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. He doesn't say depart and go into some suspended state of animation or into soul sleep or purgatory or whatever.
So it's immediate. So, you know, Randy, you write books of theology. I mean, that's really, when I look at your book, Kevin, this is a theological book made understandable.
You've taken a very complex subject and made it very understandable and approachable. Same thing with your book, If God is Good. But you also write fiction. You're a great fiction writer.
I really liked your book, Safely Home. And in the book, you have a story that you have conversations on earth and conversations in heaven happening simultaneously, showing the connection between the two. So use your sanctified imagination as a writer, as a student of scripture, but as a writer of fiction, and tell me what happens when a Christian dies.
Here's how we usually hear it. They see a great light, right? And then they're hovering over the place where they died and they're looking down, and then they go on to describe what they say they've seen. And we'll come to that topic in a moment of people who've written books about this.
But to the best of your ability, how do you envision this? Like, when a Christian dies, what happens next? Well, when we die, we actually relocate. We don't cease to exist, we relocate. So right now, if Greg and I were to walk out this back door on the platform here, and you heard the door close, and you could no longer see us, what would you say? Well, Greg and Randy cease to exist. I mean, they don't exist anymore.
Well, of course not. You would just realize, I can't see them or hear them, but they're still there, they're just where I can't see them. That's what happens when people die. They leave this world, but they're relocating.
They're not ceasing to exist, they're going to another place. For the believer, we go into the presence of Christ. You know, and Paul says in Philippians 1, that's better by far to be in his presence than to remain here.
But they go into the presence of Christ. So what I envision happening is, we see the Lord. We see the risen Jesus with the scars on his hand.
He gave his life for us. We fall at our knees before him, and he pulls us up to himself and embraces us. And then we're told that in the resurrection to come, we will ultimately sit down at tables. They'll come from the east and the west and sit down at a table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob.
Not those who used to be Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but the real Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And if we know Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, if they're who they were, then all our loved ones who are with the Lord, they will be there. Christopher will be there. My mom will be there. All of the people that we've known and loved that love Jesus will be there. And who will be in charge of the seating arrangements?
Jesus. And he'll be the one, the center of conversation. And when he talks, I just imagine that when we're all talking around the table, there's a group here and maybe Charles Spurgeon is sitting here and maybe six or seven of us are listening to him. And then Greg Laurie is sitting over there and hundreds are listening. Alone.
No, alone. But then at the head of the table, here's Jesus. And when Jesus talks, everybody stops and turns and looks at him. To be in the presence of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. To be in the presence of our loved ones with real bodies that are like Christ. And he said, you know, I'm not just a spirit.
A spirit doesn't have flesh and bones as I have. We will literally eat food and drink and be in each other's presence. And what happens at banquets?
People are laughing. We get together at our home for Sunday Night Football. I'll miss it tonight. But we get together for Sunday Night Football. And we just laugh and we eat dinner together. And we will experience that kind of relational pleasure with our Lord and with each other for all eternity. Amen. Isn't that great?
I'm looking forward to that. Well, Paul, we mentioned this already, Paul was caught up into the third heaven. And he said, I saw things that are really indescribable.
It's not lawful for a man to utter King James. So he didn't give us a lot of detail. He described it as paradise. The royal garden of a king I think is probably a definition of it. Probably the most beautiful thing Paul could envision in his earthly life and experiences.
It's like the royal garden of a king. But then John the Apostle speaks in great detail in the book of Revelation about what heaven is like. Okay, so I bring these two examples up because there are books that are written, books that have been very popular that have a very wide audience or people alleged to have gone to heaven. And they say, here's what I saw in heaven. And it's amazing how people will believe what they read in these books. I spoke with someone recently and they asked me why we didn't have a picture of Jesus on the wall at our church.
I said, well, we don't really know what He looked like doing. She said, well, in this book, and she named the book, a description of Jesus is given as though that book is like the gospel or something. And I said, well, I wouldn't put my confidence in what just someone writes in a book. The only book I put my confidence in is the Word of God. But let's think about these books for a moment that allege these experiences and things that people have seen. Should we read these books? How reliable are these books?
And what could be the potential danger of some of the things in them? I think we need to, if we choose to read those books, and I think in some cases it's fine to read them, but read them and view them through the lens of Scripture. And Acts 17, 11, where the Bereans were more noble than those at Thessalonica. And they searched the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were true. Let's just look and evaluate in terms of what God's Word says. Because remember, God's Word is inspired.
It's God-breathed. And these other books, including mine, are not. But when somebody tells of an experience, they may be 100% sincere. And I think some of the bestselling books written by Christians are very sincere.
I think they're drawing on certain memories they have and they piece certain things together. But one of the books that talks about a rainbow-colored unicorn being in the presence of God, and then I hear somebody else saying, you know, isn't that going to be great? We're going to see a rainbow-colored unicorn. But the Bible doesn't say that. The Bible doesn't tell us everything about heaven.
If God wants to have rainbow-colored unicorns, that's totally up to Him. But just because someone says that they died and went to heaven and saw it, in the old days, death meant you didn't come back. You know, in other words, like when somebody has what, you know, that we say they died, we mean that earthly human scientific medical instruments could no longer measure their heartbeat or their brain waves. But in the old days, if somebody appeared to die, but then they came back, you'd say they didn't really die.
And so sometimes these experiences, we just don't know. And some of them are evangelical Christians. A couple of them are pastors who tell their story. And I've met a few of these people.
I think they're great people and they're sincere. But here's my concern. I have read numbers of others written by people who don't know Jesus and who come back and who say all kinds of things about how you don't have to worry. God loves you just the way you are, and you don't have to change. And you can go right on living the way and thinking the way that you want to. You don't have to connect with Jesus Christ.
You can stay away from the church, which is full of hypocrites anyway, and on and on. And then you're going, okay, now, who's the angel of light there? Scripture says Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So my concern is even when you read the Christian books about heaven, measure them in light of God's Word.
But also remember, don't let that open a door of susceptibility or gullibility on your part to other books and future books, which will surely be written because any time there's a bestseller of one kind, a bunch more are written like that in hopes that they'll be a bestseller. And just remember that some of these may be made up. Some of these may be from the devil himself and be intended to communicate something that is not true and not honoring to Christ. That's right. Paul said, If I or even an angel from heaven come preaching any other gospel, then that which you have already heard, let him be accursed. And Satan is described as an angel of light.
But you mentioned remembering. Okay, so when we get to heaven, we're going to be in a resurrected body. Ultimately we're going to receive a resurrected body from Christ.
It's going to be us. You're going to be you. I'm going to be me. You'll probably look the same. I'm going to have hair.
I'm hoping for an upgrade here, a serious upgrade. But remember that movie Men in Black where they had that little device and they would do a memory wipe. You wouldn't remember anything. Sometimes when I hear certain people preach about heaven, it sounds as though they'll be a collective memory wipe.
You know, well, I'll have just a lobotomy or something where, oh, I don't remember anything about earth because the former things have passed away and there's no tears. So therefore I can't remember those things that are said because they would bring sorrow to me. Or I'm not aware of what's happening on earth because if I saw something bad happening, then heaven wouldn't be heaven.
This is how it's often presented. So here's my question. Do people in heaven remember things on earth? Are they aware of what is still happening on earth? And do they care? Well, sometimes we know that people in the presence of God in heaven know what's going on down on earth.
We get little clues. For instance, in Revelation 6, we have the martyrs, they've died. They're in heaven with Jesus and they're saying, how long, oh Lord, before you bring judgment on those who persecuted us? And they're not asking, Lord, have you yet brought judgment? They seem to know that he hasn't yet brought judgment.
How do they know that? Well, because I think they're observing the events on earth. Now remember, God is working out his unfolding drama of redemption on planet earth. Heaven is interested in what's going on down on earth. Is God interested in it?
Absolutely. Are the angels interested in it? Yeah, they're fighting in it. They're concerned on our behalf. So doesn't it make perfect sense that God would allow his children in heaven to know enough of what's going on that they have a sense of history so that when they return to the earth with Christ and his second coming that they're not suddenly snatched, earth?
Oh, I'd forgotten all about earth. Oh, what's this about? Even Moses and Elijah in the transfiguration, they're discussing with Jesus what's being acted out there. He doesn't have to tell them what's going on. They know what's going on.
Why? Because they presumably have observed it. In Luke 15 where you've got Jesus saying that whenever a sinner repents, there's rejoicing in the presence of the angels. Not rejoicing by the angels but rejoicing in the presence of the angels. Well, who lives in the presence of the angels? God's people and probably many of the people who have prayed for those very people to come to faith now are witnessing the answers to their prayers. Isn't that a beautiful picture?
It is. So in heaven, people would be aware of the passing of time. You mentioned the tribulation martyrs. They're saying how long, O Lord, holy and true do you not judge and avenge our blood and those that dwell on the earth? They're aware of time passing. They're aware of an injustice.
When are you going to avenge our blood and those that dwell upon the earth? So there is an awareness in heaven but something you've mentioned in your writing is there's perspective in heaven. My granddaughter the other day was playing with one of her dolls and the head came off. She was traumatized. Not traumatized but, you know, all the head came off. Well, I know I'm either going to fix the doll or buy her another one. So I said, don't worry about it. It's okay. But, Papa, the head came off and it's okay, you know.
Just don't tear the heads off. Yeah, that's right. But, you know, something happens in life, we think this is the worst thing imaginable but in heaven I have perspective because you talked about things, how God can refine us as gold. So maybe I would see, you know, this bad thing happen but I know that this bad thing is going to lead to this thing, to that thing, to this ultimate amazing thing. So with perspective I could be aware of those events but I'll know all things as I'm known. Yes. So I would see it differently, wouldn't I?
Exactly. Perspective, you know, the key to heaven, what makes heaven heaven, is not ignorance. It's not like, oh, God keeps us from knowing that there are bad things that have happened or are going to happen. Hey, when we look at the scars in his hands and feet, that's a reminder forever of the most horrible thing that ever happened. And by the way, what do we call that day when the most horrible things in human history happened? Good Friday.
How can we call it Good Friday? Only in retrospect. Only in retrospect when we call it Good Friday because as horrific as it was God brought the ultimate good out of it. Likewise, people who are now in heaven can look back at their lives and remember the pain, the agony, the terrible things that have happened but not be controlled by them, not be dominated by them but can learn from God himself what God was accomplishing, causing all things to work together for good. Oh, when that happened to me, you mean you brought these people to Christ? When that happened to me, you made me more like Jesus so that my life was a shining example to other people that were touched by it? You mean you accomplished these things for all eternity, things that otherwise would not have been, a good that would not otherwise have been without the bad that I went through?
Thank you, Lord. Now that's what faith is. Faith is saying, one day I will see Romans 8.28 to be fully true. But you know what? It is true right now and faith is trusting God that it is true.
Yeah, that's right. All things work together for good. Maybe God's definition of good is not always the same definition that we have of good. You know, and I think when we get to heaven, some things that we thought of as bad were good and some things we may have thought of as good may have been somewhat bad. We're going to get an eternal perspective and we're going to remember things and that's going to be important because the Bible speaks of a judgment seat for Christians. Now, there's a great white throne judgment for non-believers and if you're not found written in the book of life, you're cast into the lake of fire.
But at the judgment seat of Christ, also known as the Bema Seat, Scripture says in 2 Corinthians 5, 10, We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that everyone may receive the things done in his body according to what he has done, whether it be good or bad. And you know, it's an interesting thing because the word that is used there for bad means evil of another kind. Or another way to translate it is good for nothingness. So it's not so much a judgment about good and bad, but it's like, what did you do with your life?
Did you squander or waste your life? Rewards are meted out for faithfulness. Responsibilities are given later. When we rule and reign with Christ, as Jesus spoke of ruling over ten cities and so forth, the crown of life is mentioned, the crown of rejoicing and so forth. So, talk about the judgment seat of Christ. And so this is sort of now talking about Heaven's effect on us now. Okay. I'm going to Heaven.
That's great. There's a judgment seat. I'm already in Heaven when that happens. So I don't have to worry about it. But I don't want to come empty handed in that day. So how should that affect me now? Well, it should affect us dramatically because 2 Peter 3 talks about the fact that in light of the destruction of this old world that's going to come at the return of Christ, in light of the new heavens and the new earth he has promised, it says what sort of people ought we to be now in terms of life and godliness. Well, if you know where you've come from, you know God's intention in Eden and the fall and how sin brought destruction to the world, and you know that Jesus Christ has in the present era redeemed and saved you, and you know that in the future you're going to live in this perfect world, the home of righteousness, then you want to get a head start now on living righteously. You want to live out the reality of the redemption that Christ has accomplished, not just in the world and will accomplish, but what he has done in your heart and your soul. You also know in terms of the continuity of this life and the next, because if we're going to stand before the judgment seat of Christ, as we will each of us, even as believers, it means Randy Alcorn is going to stand before the judgment seat of Christ, giving account of the life I have lived right now and am living right now.
That's Randy Alcorn. So I don't look at this life and say, oh well, it doesn't matter, it will all come out in the wash. I mean, since Jesus died for all my sins, I may as well sin today. And you know, what if I did righteous things?
I mean, what difference would it make? I can't earn my salvation by righteousness anyway. You know, we can think short term, and this is what we end up doing. If we don't think in terms of eternity, don't think in terms of the judgment seat of Christ, don't think of giving an account of our lives, we're far more prone to waste it because why does my time matter anyway? But God says redeem the time.
Why does money matter anyway? I may as well just spend it all on myself. Well, that's the attitude of someone who's acting as if this world under the curse were their home. No, don't live for this temporary residence. Anything that you accumulate here, you're going to leave behind. Live for your eternal home. Don't lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, Jesus said, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven.
They'll never perish, and when you die, you'll go to be where your treasure is instead of when you die, you're leaving behind your treasures. So should a believer give of their finances to the Lord? What about like tithing? Is tithing biblical? Is that only from the Old Testament, from the law? Or is that something a believer should do today? And what about giving to the Lord?
How does that work practically? In my book, Managing God's Money, and maybe a couple of other of my other books as well, I talk about tithing as the training wheels of giving. And what that means is that in the Old Testament, God called upon his people to practice the tithe. There were actually three different tithes, but one of them would be roughly equivalent to the church because it was to the priests and Levites as their spiritual leaders and representatives. And so they were to tithe, but it was never all they were to do because there were tithes and free will offerings. That's throughout the Old Testament. Free will offering isn't new in the New Testament. And in the New Testament, there are free will offerings, but a lot of people say, yeah, but are we under obligation to tithe? And the way that I would put it best is that just do what God taught his old covenant people to do, to start there.
Don't finish there, don't act as if that's the pinnacle, but just start there. And then another thing I would say to people is, look, because many people will argue and justify giving far less than a tithe, and I would just say, do you really want to stand before the Lord and say, okay, God, I believe that you wanted me to give at a lower level than poor Old Testament saints who had not seen the redemptive work of Christ and did not have the indwelling Spirit of God, and then I, redeemed by Jesus Christ, having seen his sacrifice for my sins and living in the wealthiest country in human history, felt free to give less than you called upon the poorest saints in Old Testament times to give. If you think that argument is going to fly at the judgment seat, more power to you. I actually don't. That's just my opinion.
Oh, no, and I agree with you. In fact, in your book, The Law of Rewards, you write, what's the biggest misconception Christians have about giving? That when we give our money away to a church or a ministry to help the needy, it's gone.
While we hope others will benefit from it, we're quite sure we won't. We think we're divesting ourselves of money, disassociating from it. Once it leaves our hands, we imagine it has no connection to us, no future implications, but now, implications relevant to our lives. But now is our window of opportunity not to divest ourselves of money, but to invest it in heaven. This is, again, just getting back to the idea that life goes on. We never die. And so these things we do on earth have eternal ramifications, and we have a reward waiting for us.
Lay it for yourself. Treasures in heaven where neither moth nor rust do corrupt, or thieves breaking in steel. But Randy, we've used all our time up, and I want to say that this interview that I did with Randy in this service is almost completely different than the one I did in the first, and it'll probably be different than the one we do in the third, so we're going to take all of this and put it together on one CD and DVD for people to hear all of these questions answered.
But now we're going to just come to a couple of, I want you to tweet your answers to me now. Okay, I'm just going to ask you quick questions, things people ask about heaven. Okay, Randy, will our pets be in heaven? Well, let's just say that because the whole creation includes suffering that is non-human suffering, it includes animals who are suffering now that are looking forward to the redemption that we will experience, and based on Isaiah 60 and Ezekiel 47 and some other passages that speak of animals in the context of the new earth, I think there will be animals on the new earth. It'll be connected to what was on the old earth, and the question then, will some of those animals be pets which we have had? Well, that's totally up to God. There's no biblical proof of that, but I would suggest that wouldn't it just be like the Lord to lovingly entrust to our care animals which he made, Satan didn't make them, and he put it into the world and gave us a special relationship with. Will there be coffee in heaven?
I think there will be, and this is interesting because, you know, here's the thing. Who made that coffee tree? Who made those coffee beans? Once again, did Satan make that? No.
No. And some people say, well, wait a minute, though. I mean, if like you have a caffeine addiction, we will be free of addictions or whatever. Well, you know what?
Things will be as they were intended to be, and we won't be addicts, but we can still enjoy the blessings of God's creation. Nice. Nice. Amen. So much more I could ask you, but let's close with this, Randy. A person is watching this right now, and they're saying, you know, I don't know that I'll go to heaven. You know, there is a hell too. Just like there is an eternal heaven, there is an eternal hell. One person wrote, quote, eternity to the godly is a day that has no sunset. Eternity to the wicked is a night that has no sunrise.
It goes on. I mean, we can't believe in an eternal heaven and not believe in an eternal hell. The last thing God wants is for any person made in His image to spend eternity separated from Him in hell. This is why Jesus died on the cross for us, as you've already said, but here's my final question.
How can a person know with absolute certainty that they will go to heaven when they die? You know, for believers, this life right now is the closest we are ever going to get to hell. For unbelievers, this life right now is the closest they will ever get to heaven unless they turn to Jesus Christ, abandoning all hope of earning their way to heaven and look at the finished work of Jesus Christ on their behalf.
They cannot think that they are accomplishing two percent or one percent or a fraction of one percent of their own salvation because that's contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is not by works of righteousness, which we have done, but according to His mercy, He saved us. So each person must look at the reality of the dead-end street of their own sin, rebellion against God, repent of that, confess their sins, and say, God, I turn to You, to my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Come into my life. Transform me on the basis of what You have done that I might experience heaven forever.
That's the only way. Amen. Thank you, Randy, for coming and joining us today.
Let's thank Randy Alcorn. Thanks. Thank you.
Thank you. There might be some of you that have never made this commitment to follow Jesus Christ. You don't have that hope of heaven. And I want to close our service today by giving you that opportunity to get right with God. So if you have never asked Jesus to forgive you of your sin, if you do not have this certainty that you will go to heaven when you die, then respond to this invitation I'm going to give to you now as we close in prayer. If you would all bow our heads to our prayer if you would. Father, I pray for every person here, every person listening and watching.
If they do not yet know You, Lord, help them to come and believe in Jesus and be forgiven of their sins so they can have the certainty that they will go to heaven when they die. While our heads are bowed and our eyes are closed, if you want to know that you will go to heaven when you die, if you want Jesus Christ to come into your life right now, if you want your sin forgiven and you want your guilt taken away, if you're ready to say yes to Jesus, wherever you are, I want you to stand to your feet and I'm going to lead you in a prayer. Again, just stand to your feet and I'm going to lead you in a prayer. God bless you. Just stand up. God bless you. Wherever you are, stand up and I'm going to lead you in a prayer of commitment to Christ.
Are you watching at Harvest Orange County, Harvest Orange Crest? Just stand to your feet and I'm going to lead you in this prayer as well. Outside in the courtyard, in the amphitheater, you stand up. Up in the court building, you stand as well, watching the screen there and I'll lead you in this prayer of commitment. Anybody else? You want to know that you will go to heaven when you die. You want Jesus to come into your life. Stand to your feet now.
God bless you. Anybody else? Stand up now. One final moment. Stand now.
Anybody else? God bless you. God bless you and you.
Amen. One final moment. Stand now. God bless you. You that are standing, I want you to pray this prayer out loud after me. This is where you're asking Christ to come into your life.
So again, as I pray, pray this out loud right where you stand. Lord Jesus, I know I'm a sinner, but you died on the cross for me and absorbed the wrath of God in my place and you rose again from the dead three days later. Now come into my heart and be my Savior and my Lord. Be my God and my friend. I choose to follow you, Jesus, from this moment forward. Thank you that I am now going to heaven. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen.
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