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Carolina Journal Radio No. 842: Recent developments could end long-running school funding case

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai
The Truth Network Radio
July 8, 2019 8:00 am

Carolina Journal Radio No. 842: Recent developments could end long-running school funding case

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai

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July 8, 2019 8:00 am

North Carolina has been dealing with the Leandro school funding lawsuit for 25 years. But recent developments suggest a resolution to the long-running case could be in sight. Terry Stoops, John Locke Foundation vice president for research and director of education studies, analyzes the latest recommendations and courtroom developments in the Leandro dispute. Some state lawmakers want to give survivors of childhood sexual abuse more time to take their alleged abusers to civil court. You’ll hear highlights from a recent N.C. House debate over a bill that would allow an adult as old as 38 to file suit in a child sexual abuse case. One N.C. congressman used a recent U.S. House debate to draw attention to the boycott, divestment, and sanctions – or BDS – movement against Israel. Rep. Patrick McHenry, R-10th District, asked colleagues to support an amendment to take action against those who support the movement. You’ll hear his argument. One of the most contentious debates in the N.C. General Assembly this year involves fishing. Sponsors of a bill dubbed “let them spawn” want to set new size restrictions for certain fish caught in N.C. waters. Opponents contend the measure would kill the state’s commercial fishing sector. You’ll hear arguments from both sides. The U.S. Supreme Court has closed the door on partisan gerrymandering cases with a 5-4 decision in North Carolina’s Rucho v. Common Cause case. That means the state will not be forced to redraw election districts for 2020 congressional elections. But a similar legal dispute in state court still could affect the future of N.C. House and Senate election maps.

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Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai

From Cherokee to current tagging from the largest city to the smallest town and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome Carolina Journal radio why Michiko got during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state. Some North Carolina lawmakers want to give victims of childhood sexual abuse more time to take their abusers to court you learn why one of the most contentious debates in this year's general assembly has involved fish you hear lawmakers debate the pros and cons of a bill dubbed let them spawn North Carolina Congressman Patrick McHenry draws attention to the boycott, divestment, and sanctions or BDS movement. It targets Israel and you learn our recent US Supreme Court decision could affect North Carolina's future congressional elections as well as those across the country.

Those topics are just ahead. First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline.

What does it mean to guarantee a sound basic education to school-age kids in North Carolina. That's the question at the heart of a decades-old court case that's now back in the news. Dr. Terry stoops is vice president for research is also the director of education studies for the John Locke foundation.

He judges now at the very latest on the case, known as Leandra Terry, welcome back to the shell. Thank you. It seems like the not of this whole case, which date back dates back to the 1990s actually is whether or not kids are receiving a sound basic education and that's actually a phrase from the North Carolina Constitution so how do we measure that wealth usually measured by looking at test scores. When you start looking at student performance measures, you find that there are some places. Some schools are doing better than others and typically the idea is that the reason why some of these schools are doing better than others is due to money and that's really the question that were going to have to face is that will increase in funding raise student achievements and and that has always been the question with Leandra since the case was filed and 94 and decided by the Supreme Court 97.

What role should money play in being able to provide what the Constitution provides, which is a sound basic education. We had some school districts who sued essentially saying they did not believe that the constitutional requirement was being fulfilled in their areas, but then you said the North Carolina Supreme Court ruled so tell us about what the Supreme Court said, and then why is this case still lingering on what the Supreme Court did was to decide that. No, there were plenty of students in North Carolina. The warrant receiving sound basic education and so to be able to monitor the states compliance with the constitutional requirement. The case was remanded to await County Superior Court and for years, judge Howard Manning was overseeing the implementation of Leandra.

He wrote some very influential memorandum about the implementation of Leandra and of course he would have hearings and asked the states about. It's what it's was doing to try to meet the constitutional requirements. Judge Manning retired in 2015 and Judge David Lee was appointed in his place to oversee this case in 2017, the plaintiff and the defendant came together and said that they wanted an independence consulting firm to look at the issue of what the state should do and that's where we are today. The group West. Ed was hired to look at the case look at North Carolina's education system and determine what the next step should be Terry. It just seems that this is a case that it's inherently could go on forever. It's already gone on since the 90s. So have we even determine what we think the actual measuring stick will be.

Is it a dollar amount and once we meet that point were to say yes. The constitutional requirement has been met or is it student test scores are how do we measure and that's the key in other states and by the way, this was a multistage strategy by some folks to increase its education funding was to file these types of lawsuits also didn't just happen North Carolina.

It happened in other states as well. In other states have had very different experiences and some there were massive increases in education funding, which didn't always translate to increases in student achievement because the relationship between the those two is rather inconsistent in the research really shows that it takes more than just money to increase student achievement and some other states, lands Flatts of the increase in funding this recommended is may be put into place, but some of the other recommendations are followed. So what happens, North Carolina will be really interesting to see going forward.

The real question at the heart of this and this is where were absent in 2019, with the Leandra case is will the judge order the Gen. assembly to spend more money. That's really the concern because in the past.

Judge Manning has not been willing to tell the legislature to spend a dollar amounts. And so Judge David Lee may decide that that has to happen. Of course, that would be a crisis with the separation of powers, the judiciary, telling the legislative what to do, so that's that's really what were all waiting for us to see if if he goes ahead and does that not only constitutional crisis potentially but just an issue of effectiveness, as you said, there is not a a a direct connection between spending and student achievement.

So it seems like if that order were to come and it were, and the order were to prevail, my goodness, how would we know the kids were learning that's actually right and when you look across North Carolina.

You find that some school districts are much more productive than others. In other words, some school districts are really able to spend their money in a very effective way. Union County is always the example of a low spending hi achievements County, as far as student performance in North Carolina, but we have lots of counties that receive far above the state average per pupil expenditure.

The don't produce good results. And so even if you look just anecdotally in North Carolina you see that there is no consistent relationship between spending and student achievement, but because we don't really have a good sense of how to raise student achievement. The idea is that well since we don't really know let's just put more money into it. We'll figure it out as we go along. He mentioned the West End report the independent consultant. We also know that Gov. Cooper has a commission that's meeting on this are those two things connected the West End report and the governor's group you absolutely the governor of course wants to find a way to increase education funding and believes that this Leandra case is one way to do it and so he put together a commission of this is occurred in other states where the governors of put together commission to make recommendations on what should be included in the action plan for the judge to order the state to do so. We know that monies can be part of it, but what other types of reforms are going to be included. This commission is gonna recommend a whole range of different things including some charter school. Some school nutrition policy.

There's a very broad look out over prekindergarten wanted is is rather prominent one in this commission a whole range of policies with hopes that the judge will implement these policies through a court order along with the increase in funding so is the governor's group then trying to make recommendations that that plate off of the West End report and dovetail with that or they coming up with their own separate list of things I think should happen. How will that work well. They came up with their own separate list and they released preliminary report of some of the list of things they believe should be included, but the commission hasn't seen the West End report.

So until they know what senates and whether they their recommendations merge with what West End says we don't quite know what they are going to recommend it seems odd that they would make recommendations knowing that a consultant is preparing a report. Why wouldn't they wait. Well that's that's a reasonable question, but they don't want to wait. I think they would have this in place in preparation for 2020.

I think this is all about the timing for the next gubernatorial election and the possibility of a a change in the leadership of the Gen. assembly so we see some strategy some some political strategy being played out. This isn't just about policy and I think that's the one thing that people should know about the Leandra case is that there is policy involved, but this is really around the politics and finding a way to ensure that the Gen. assembly spends more money on schools. Thank you very much say with this much more Carolina journal radio to come in just a moment tired of fake names tired of reporters with political axes to grind.

What you need to be reading Carolina journal, honest, uncompromising, old-school journalism, you expect and you need even better, the monthly Carolina journal is free to subscribers sign you'll receive Carolina journal newspaper in your mailbox each month.

Investigations into government spending revelations about boondoggles who the powerful leaders are and what they're doing in your name and with your money. We shine the light on it all with the stories and angles.

Other outlets barely cover but there's a bonus print newspapers published monthly by our daily news site gives you the latest news each and every day lot onto Carolina once, twice, even three times a day won't be disappointed. It's fresh news if you'd like a heads up on the daily news sign up for our daily email do that Carolina Carolina journal rigorous unrelenting old-school journalism. We hold government accountable for you. Welcome back Carolina journal radio why Michiko got some North Carolina lawmakers want to make it easier for victims of child sexual abuse to go to court Republican representative Dennis Riddell explained this is a bill about helping to prevent child sexual abuse. This is not a happy topic that any of us want to discuss that it's a necessary one. The AMA calls child sexual abuse of silent epidemic in our land. The bill seeks to resolve that epidemic by doing several things. Currently there are 42 million survivors of sexual abuse in our country.

If you take a conservative number that half of those 42 million are victims of childhood sexual abuse of 21 million victims in our land and our nation revolve into the Vietnam Memorial is over 58,000 names on that memorial to account for the 21 million victims of child sexual abuse would require over 350 Vietnam Memorial walls and 58,000 names times 350. That's the extent of this it is an epidemic, one for women will be sexually abused before their 18th birthday. One in six men will be sexually abused before their 18th birthday. Those four ladies you saw in the cafeteria enjoying the lunch together likelihood of one being a victim is 100% last Saturday.

Those menus all playing softball likelihood that one in six of them as a victim hundred percent. This is an epidemic. It's a silent epidemic. Everyone here in this room everyone hearing my voice knows at least one, two or maybe three victims of childhood sexual abuse if you say no I really don't know anybody like that simply because the people you do know who are victims have chosen not to disclose it and that's what makes us crime so insidious Riddell's bill would allow adults to go to court to address abuse from their childhood days.

Why victims of childhood sexual abuse sometimes take years or decades before they have the emotional strength to face down your abuser. The impact of a five-minute, despicable and vile act with the child has lifetime consequences for the child and virtually none for the abuser less than 10% of predators spend any time in jail. List of emotional problems that survivors go through a legion, the greatest of shame.

That's another reason why it's a silent epidemic who wants to talk about being violated as a child who wants to bring the subject up, so most victims.

Another typical human response to a traumatic event is repression and that's what most of the victims of childhood sexual abuse and of doing is repressing it.

Not talking about it doesn't solve the problem. We know today from brain science. That trauma inflicted on a child and child sexual abuse is the greatest of both trauma inflicted or experienced by a child can damage the brain. The child's brain is developing through their juvenile years up into adulthood up into the mid-20s.

The brain is still growing and still making connections, and we know today from MRI studies and research that a victim of child sexual abuse. The trauma stops the development of certain parts of the brain that state representative Dennis Riddell is explaining a bill to help more victims of childhood sexual abuse take their abusers to court is talking about long term negative impacts on the abuse victims brain. This can be undone through therapy and they can get back to a normal life but there is damage done and that explains what happens with most of the victims of childhood sexual abuse and up with many antisocial pathologies that have a higher incidence of drug abuse, higher incidence of being re-victimized. A higher incidence of suicide, a higher incidence of health issues a higher incidence of anger, of isolation, feelings of hopelessness, betrayal, ambivalence. This all plays out in their life and they end up becoming often times customers, clients of our social services network or juvenile justice system and other healthcare networks.

The average cost for a victim over their lifespan of services needed therapy so forth is over $210,000 at the average cost per victim whose pain that often times it is the victim or to be the taxpayer in the community.

So what would Riddell's bill do what this bill does by extending the statute of limitations for a civil suit for victims of child sexual abuse allows us to shift the cost to the perpetrator and away from either the victim or the rest of us 75% of women who seek treatment in various programs were victims of childhood sexual abuse cost annually. Our country is over hundred and $50 billion. Currently our law reads as follows. If you follow suit for criminal child sexual abuse. There is no statute of limitations you can file that suited age 85. You can file that suit at age 18. However, in the area of civil suits to recover damages for the damage done to that young soul to the damage done to that wounded heart. You only have between the age of 18 and 21.

Currently there is an exception, possibly for a 10 year additional. To be added depending on your age and the realization went when you were abused.

Think about that most victims H out at 21 they cannot recover any costs they are prohibited by law from doing so.

They've been damaged but who do they go to for justice. What this bill does is extend that age from 21 to 38 understand friends at slow.

The average age of disclosure for a victim of childhood sexual abuse is 5252 I'm dealing with the realities of what I can get done. My bill originally had 45 years as the age I brought it down to 38 to try to get the support we need to get past we need to do something rather than nothing. It is time it is past time for North Carolina to get serious about preventing child abuse for North Carolina to get serious about helping those who are victims and for North Carolina to stop being a safe haven for predators. If you are a predator. All you have to do typically is keep your victim shut up until the age of 21 and you have nothing to worry about is that the kind of state we want to be a place that is a harbor safe harbor for child predators. I think not.

Critics fear the bill could open the door to frivolous lawsuits representative John Corbett asked Riddell about that topic.

Would you mind touching base. If you know about what others what occurred in other states that have also extended time periods to a similar extension is ours. Several states have a longer period than 38 indeed seven states, Alaska, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Illinois, Maine, Minnesota, and the territory of Guam have no statute of limitations at all on civil proceedings.

Now the seven states.

I just listed. Can anyone tell me where the wheels have come off their justice system because they have been inundated with faults accusations, the answer is no, and has not happened in other states where this is been done where the expected limitations with event eliminated altogether for civil suits or it's been extended.

Most recently, New Jersey established the statue limitations for civil law for civil suits. At the age of 55. This was done in the last several months. The trend in our land friends is recognizing the brain science is out there. The long term debilitating effects it has on a child to be abused like this and ability to finally come forward only as an adult you been listening to debate about a bill to raise the statute of limitations for civil suit involving childhood sexual abuse will return with more Carolina journal radio in a moment. If you have freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups across North Carolina all in one place North Carolina it's one stop shopping for North Carolina's freedom movement and North Carolina You'll find links to John Locke foundation blogs on the days news Carolina reporting input takes Carolina journal radio interviews TV interviews featuring CJ reporters and let foundation analysts, opinion pieces and reports on higher education from the James Dean Martin, Center for academic renewal, commentary and polling data from the scimitar's Institute and news and views from the North Carolina family policy Council. That's right, all in one place North Carolina that's North Carolina spelled out North Carolina Try it today. North Carolina is changing not just day-to-day but outward to our minute to minute. Even 2nd to 2nd, how can you keep up with the changes, especially the ones that affect you, your family, your home, your job, make the John Locke foundation and Carolina journal part of your social media diet on Facebook like the John Locke foundation like Carolina. Journal follow us on Twitter at John Locke in C and at Carolina journal news, insights and analysis you'll find nowhere else. Thanks to the experts at the John Locke foundation and thanks to the first-class investigative reporting of Carolina journal. Don't wait for the morning newspaper. Don't wait for the evening news if it's happening now it's happening here the John Locke foundation and Carolina journal.

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So now not only will you enjoy what you buy. You also support freedom. Don't forget log on to today, something nice and help defend freedom, help support the John Mott foundation will go back Carolina journal radio amateur coca during a recent U.S. House debate on retirement security one. North Carolina Congressman tackled a different topic, 10th district Republican Patrick McHenry asked colleagues to support an amendment, it was against the boycott investment and sanctions or BDS movement. The BDS movement is an epic is an effort to weapon eyes. The world economy against one simple state one state, the great state of Israel and the Jewish people there trying to weapon eyes our economy are dollars against our only ally in the Middle East.

It's a democracy.

This is an effort for us today today to say that we will stand against this movement. This movement is about anti-Zionism, anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism.

Let us speak with one clear voice today that we as American people will not stand for this economic warfare we will stand with our ally and we will stand with the Jewish people in Israel he and the Israel state why weapon eyes our economy against Israel to destroy Israel to choke off economic growth to choke off economic opportunity and thereby weaken the state of Israel to get rolled into the sea.

That is unacceptable. That is the notion of the BDS movement. It may be polite in certain companies to say you bought you boycott Univest you sanction the state of Israel is not polite to save your anti-Semitic. But what the BDS movement says is that your anti-Semitic what you say by supporting the BDS movement is that your okay with discriminating as people because their faith. This body has a long history of working together in a bipartisan fashion.

I work for three years to hammer out a bipartisan approach to stopping the BDS movement that that got rolled into the bill that was passed in January in the Senate 77 centers joined together in Sanibel over here to the house. We waited four months with no vote on that bill and is not because we are a bipartisan support to stop the BDS movement.

We do we do in this chamber we stood together in a bipartisan form to stand against hate and to stand against anti-Semitism, but the leadership over there. Don't want us to have a vote on that bill. So today were saying let's have the vote. Let's stand up for the state of Israel. Let stand against hate. Let stand up against his anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism that underlines it. Let stand up for our Jewish friends and allies and let's speak with one voice that the BDS movement is anti-Semitism. That's US representative Patrick McHenry Republican from North Carolina's 10th district on a largely partyline vote. The Democratic led U.S. House rejected McHenry amendment will return with more Carolina journal radio where doubling down on freedom at Carolina journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet. And now get twice as much freedom when you also listen to our podcast headlock available on iTunes headlock is a little bit different. It's a no holds barred discussion that challenges softheaded ideas from the left and the right, like Carolina journal radio headlock is smart and timely but with headlock you'll hear more about the culture wars get some more humor as well. We guarantee great information and a good time to double down with S.

Listen to Carolina journal radio each week and listen to headlock to remember, you can listen to head or subscriber download each week iTunes Carolina journal radio and headlock just what you need to stay informed and stay entertained both brought to you in the name of freedom by the John Locke foundation.

Welcome back to Carolina journal radio amateur coca. One of the most hotly contested issues during this year's session of the North Carolina Gen. assembly involved fish specifically a proposal dubbed let them Spohn it was designed to place new restrictions on the types of fish fishermen can catch in North Carolina waters representative Larry Yarborough says the bill follows years of failed performs virtually North Carolina's reform has not worked. North Carolina seems to be the only solar state that has done this badly almost impossible to do anything about it since then and I think you can see why you are confusing scientific claims that seem to be in direct conflict stories about the good hard-working people in danger of losing their lives struggling to make a living with these declining fish populations. It's a very difficult issue and it has proven to be too much for a volunteer board of commissioners as well as departmental bureaucrats who just want to keep their jobs and work through this minefield. Yarborough cited evidence, scientific reports indicate that too many of these fish are being harvested as juveniles and is not enough reproduction going on when the wildlife resources commission has a population is over fish they set the size limit where the fish are old enough to reproduce. That's what led them Spohn those figures in Marine fisheries department. Goalsetting size limits that would allow 75% of the fish a chance to respond at least once. It's a simple idea is not going to solve everything, but it's a star. The idea paystub mixed response representative Larry Pittman doesn't believe new regulation is necessary. Believe all this billows about is for the social pair of special such as use CCA deletes all the fish to themselves is what this is about, and the reduction in numbers of fishermen commercial fishermen is not because if you were fish is because I've been regulated to death. Many of them just couldn't continue under the strict regulations been put on them so this is just about killing off the commercial fishing industry's more representative Jay Adams supported the change. He cited the legislatures need to protect the public resource folks. I have looked at the data over the last 35 years and you can decide to skim the blade but I'm telling you, if you look at it is clear this resources been terribly depleted and now we talk about what we have.

We are looking right now that the complete collapse of the fisheries. We got a representative pricey Harrison opposed the bill. This proposal is not based on scientific need to fisheries and format within the Gen. assembly's intent in enacting fisheries Reform Act. That process, it was created which the science comes from Division III fisheries stakeholder close advisors includes all the experts in this area in an official and commercial fishermen, environmentalists, university professors all participate in very deliberative process in adopting fishery management plans for each of the important fisheries to North Carolina and we have a current Division I fisheries, whom we heard from yesterday and Rolesville is committed to this process and commit to making tough decisions and committed to scientific reform and I think we need to on to a defendant that representative Bobby Heinig opposes the measure for reasons not to allow special interests to regulate our resources to keep hard-working, taxpaying citizens from working it out after subsidies or special treatment just like to make a living for their families, said resource has been overfished and will shut it down. Finally, enforce the current rules and implement the current rules don't punish everyone as just another attempt fishing industry.

I know that you have a friend of a brother whose cousin has a friend who knows a guy that has a boat that you went out of five years ago a call fish when I need to keep in mind and please keep this in mind, this will keep the God who catches the bait that you caught the fish with the looking will literally destroy hard-working salt of the Carolinians ability to put food on the table. This bill has far reaching negative consequences legislator had been cutting and cutting the commercial fishermen for years. Eventually you will die out and they'll be all his representative, Keith Kidwell shared the thoughts of his fishermen. Clients are prepared literally hundreds of tax returns for fishermen in Beaufort County. I know these people personally upside down have long discussions with them on things that they have to deal with the regulations that they deal with his fishermen. The commonality I find I've never had a single fishermen to tell me I'm quitting fishing because I can't catch fish.

They quit because her overregulated. That's their words not mine have all told me the exact same thing as nonelective fish.

There's an abundance of regulations running our fishermen out of business in North Carolina.

Please note that the people who oppose this bill by a larger from the coastal counties represent the coastal people who are dealing with these fish sure you money or looking at is huge if we put these commercial fishermen out of business last 20 years we have lost hundreds of jobs, matches, fishermen, people not just talking about the 687 guys go out on the boat or the individual he goes out and those of himself talk about the processing houses when talking about builders that we have news to North Carolina and there are no longer there because there is no more fishing business talking about people who repair the boats that are no longer implied when talking about the net makers and the people who repair the next one to sell the baked. All of those businesses are gone, you should North Carolina this bill is not officially it is a job killer but representative Billy Richardson offered a different view the stalks of croaker were 197 spot were to be about 413,000 fish 21 for the tongs now is 85,000 functional definition is doing the same over and over and over and expecting a different result. We set for 50 years now. Fisheries work will split the Santos work. We are entrusted by the people of the state of North Carolina responsible. These are not my factual which you choose to stick our lives we truly believe this evidence that we are not facing a serious problem if you didn't document conviction, but the facts are overwhelming. We must fix this problem. This bill is not fixable with this restore some signal lawmakers split nearly evenly on whether to institute new fishing regulations will return with more Carolina journal radio involvement real influence. You either have it or you don't and at the John Mott foundation we have it, you'll find our guiding principles in many of the freedom forward reforms of the past decade here in North Carolina.

So while others talk or complain or name call. We provide research solutions and hope our team analyzes the pressing issues of the day jobs, healthcare, education, and more. We look for effective ways to give you more freedom, more options, more control over your life. Our goal is to transform North Carolina into a growing, thriving economic powerhouse, the envy of every other state research is how policymakers make decisions that ensure you keep more of what you are. Expand your choice of schools for your kids. Widen your job opportunities improve your access to doctors.

The recipe for stability and a bright future for truth for freedom for the future of North Carolina. We are the John Locke foundation. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio I'm Donna Martinez is the court ruling, North Carolina had been waiting for. And now it is in the United States Supreme Court in a five for decision in Choate versus common cause has upheld North Carolina's disputed congressional maps is a victory for the Republicans in the Gen. assembly, who drew these maps by cohost Mitch coke, I joined me now to discuss the ruling which is been following this case, very, very closely match interesting. I don't have the opportunity to interview you on the show like this but glad you can join me for this segment. Since you are an expert here on this. We have Chief Justice John Roberts of the Supreme Court who wrote this opinion what he say basically he said that partisan gerrymandering which is the type of gerrymandering that was at issue in this case is something that the federal courts cannot address this has been the type of argument that some justices have accepted for a number of years there has been debate on the Supreme Court about this issue of partisan gerrymandering and whether federal courts should get involved at all, there's always been a block on the Supreme Court that is said no. This is a political issue.

Judges cannot find any kind of legal standard that would help us decide how much partisanship is too much when you're drawing election maps. There's also been another block that has said no. This is something that is terrible in our system and we need find a way to come up with a way to determine when some level partisanship is too much, but there's been debate for decades about what that standard is basically that the decision that came down from Chief Justice Roberts was look whenever gratifying to standard. There are five justices on this court to agree with that. So partisan gerrymandering cases should no longer go through the federal courts at all now.

It obviously was not a unanimous decision it was a five for writing for the dissent was Justice Elena Kagan and she had some incredibly pointed and harsh words about this decision.

Tell us what her view was that she expressed deep sadness that her conservative colleagues. The five members voted in the majority voted in the way they did and basically she says the gerrymandering is anti-is anti-Democratic in the most profound sense. That's a direct quote from her because it deprives people of their ability to fully choose who represents them and she said of all times to abandon the court's duty to declare the law. This was not the one basically Elena Kagan was saying the five justices in the majority you punted on this. We could have come up with a way to come up with a standard that would say that some level partisanship in drawing election maps is too much at this decision and these maps were really about political advantage and we should make clear that we know that the use of of race in drawing districts is unconstitutional and that is very clear and that is not the question at all, that was afoot here, in this case were talking about partisan political advantage. Mitch explained to us, just remind us how this works every 10 years. Who is it gets to draw the maps and why you every 10 years after we get new census data. In this state. In North Carolina the Gen. assembly gets to draw maps for not only Congress but also its own seats.

The state house and state Senate that process takes place after the census in the first year after the census for decades now every time that has happened. The party that's in the minority in the Gen. assembly has gone to court and said that there's been some problem with the maps and usually they put the processes involve claims of racial gerrymandering and as you said, racial gerrymandering has been determined to be unconstitutional, but there has also been arguments about too much partisanship and that's something that's been floating in the courts for a number of years there been different tests put forward his ways to determine whether a map is to partisan or or okay constitutionally. That Supreme Court is never been able to agree on a standard but now this decision because of the five justices in the majority joining together of said were never to be able to find a standard partisan gerrymandering is bad but federal courts cannot get involved because there's no way for us to have a standard that will work if the federal courts then cannot get involved here in North Carolina then does that mean the status quo is that the Gen. assembly, whichever party is in control after each tenure census they draw the maps. That is exactly right. But one of the things it was interesting in Chief Justice Roberts opinion is that he said look we all know partisan gerrymandering is bad, but there are other ways to address this Congress could take steps Congress could pass a law that would force the states to change the way they draw election maps, state legislatures could take steps and we know that there bills in North Carolina that would change that. He also suggested in some cases that state courts could be mentioned specifically the Florida Supreme Court, which throughout the congressional election mapper Florida because it violated something within that state's constitution that calls specifically for fair districts so he said look, the federal courts have no role in this. But that doesn't mean other actors can't get involved moving forward then how do we try to address this question of, for example, Bob Phillips of the common causes said that what he is looking for and other advocates are looking for competitive districts." Fair districts.

Does that mean we have to go to an independent commission take this out of the hands of the Gen. assembly. What are the options. Well, there are options involving either setting up an independent commission or having some legislative staffers set up temporarily to do this process the bills moving through the North Carolina Gen. assembly. I should say sitting in the North Carolina Gen. assembly. They really haven't moved would address this issue in a couple of different ways but a cabbie ought to what Bob Phillips said one of the interesting pieces in Judge Ross Chief Justice Roberts ruling was.

He talked about all these various arguments for fair election maps and said it was hard to determine what exactly is fair if we got 13 competitive congressional districts in our maps.

We have 13 congressional seat if we have 13 competitive districts. It could be possible in one election for all of them to go to one party because one party has a particular advantage during election cycle. They win all of the competitive races so they have all 13 seats he said is that what you be by fair or do you be much by fair that there should be some sort of proportionality that if Democrats get 51% of the vote statewide that they should get somewhere in the neighborhood of 51% of the seat. He said if that's what you want and what you really want is for the Gen. assembly to draw districts so that each party is assured to win pretty much all of the districts each time around, he said, and that's exactly opposite of what's being talked about in this case, is it the fairness issue. You have to decide what's fair first and after you decide what's fair then you would have to decide how to go about doing that and that he said this could be very difficult as you mentioned, there are number of bills that are not moving but sitting in the Gen. assembly at least is as you and I are talking so what comes next.

Any thoughts on the likelihood of the next move by someone or somebody well I think there's going to be an additional push to try to get some action on those bills, but the other thing we haven't yet mentioned yet is that although the Supreme Court has ruled.

There's also a state court case dealing with the legislative districts. That's gotta be taking place a little bit afterward talking now to the month of July. That case is going to go to court challenging the maps under the state Constitution. That's a whole different kettle of fish. The plaintiffs in that case, a that there are provisions in our state constitution that banned partisan gerrymandering.

So be very interesting to see if the state courts including the state Supreme Court decide to throw up the niche you have been paying very close attention to all of these types of of map cases do you anticipate we can ever reach a point where these said districts whether it's congressional or general assembly seats when it where they don't go to court where someone doesn't say this isn't fair. At this point I can't see it. About the only option perhaps would be if they have some sort of independent process that everyone buys into this point we are very fascinating much coke, I think so much text on the time we have for the program this week on behalf of Mitch and me. I'm Donna Martinez. Thanks for listening help you join us again next week for another edition of Carolina Journal rating Carolina Journal radio is a program of the John lock foundation to learn more about the John Locke foundation donations that support programs like Carolina Journal radio send email to development John Locke done call 1866 jail left info 1-866-553-4636 Carolina Journal radio is the John lock foundation Carolina spring market maintaining Carolina broadcasting system, Inc. all opinions expressed on this program are solely those did not merely reflect the station. For more information about the show. Other programs and services of the John lock foundation John Locke toll-free at 868 JL would like to thank our wonderful radio affiliates across Carolina and our sponsors. Carolina Journal radio. Thank you for listening. Please join us again next week

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