Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. If you have a question on the Bible, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Unity Baha'i, Islam, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Atheism, Agnosticism, Evolution, UFOs, occult stuff, Christian theology and doctrine, all you got to do is give me a call. Last night I did, after this show, I had an hour break and then I went in and did online ABN Sat TV, and it goes out to a lot of the continents, different nations, and different TV networks, and we discussed the issue of Father Confession and its heresy. And so, not a big deal, tonight I'll be on, we're supposed to be discussing the new apostolic reformation and a little bit of the Father Confession stuff. There might be someone on tonight who is going to defend Kenneth Hagin.

So I think that'll be an interesting possibility, we'll see what happens, and you just never know. But that'll be on ABN Sat TV or trinitychannel.com, trinitychannel.com is one of the places you can go check it out to. It'll be in three hours from now, no, it's three hours, no, no, two hours from now, that'll be 8 p.m. eastern time, so there you go if you want to check it out. All right, Four Open Lines, if you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276, why don't you give me a call and we can talk, all right? Let's get to Calvin from Raleigh, North Carolina, Calvin, welcome, you are on the air. Hi, Matt. Hi.

Where are you going? I recently, I had read a book, a Gnostic Bible, called, well, it's a Gnostic teaching, it's called Sister Sophia. In it, it has some type of discussion that Christ had with his disciples, and the discussion, it's like in-depth type discussions as to how, as to belief, and what Christ was about. Have you ever read a book called Sister Sophia, or that type of Gnostic-type teaching?

No, I've gone through stuff over the years that's Gnostic, and it's just false, you don't put any credence in it, that's all it is, it's just pseudo-priggable material that people wrote because they say Jesus said this or that, and there's no documentation to show it, it's connotic scripture. The church knew what was the truth and rejected those documents as false documents, it's just another work of the devil, okay? Not just another work of the devil, okay, gotcha, gotcha, would that be also of the emulation to some of the books that were taken or left out of the Bible, because at the time that the Bible was being created, the people that was putting the book together, some of the books were not in their favor, so they on purpose left it out. They were left out because they were never in, so you can understand this, when the Old Testament was given to us by the Jews, and the Christian church didn't have any problem with anything in the Old Testament, when the New Testament came along, it came along because the apostles wrote, and so the New Testament church recognized their authority and collected them, and that's it. There wasn't any other book, hey, let's exclude this and put that in, no, they just took what the apostles wrote, and that's what scripture is. So the other stuff that comes later on, people say, oh, it was taken out of the Bible, no, it was just never part of the Bible.

You know Paul wrote things, for example, and he writes to the church, he's writing authoritatively as an apostle, so that's in, and you know, if Bob from another country says, oh, Jesus appeared to me in a vision, this is what he said, the church is going to go, yeah, right, go away, and then people say, oh, see, they took that out of the Bible, what, it was never in, what are you talking about, okay. I got you, I got you, okay, thank you, Matt. You're welcome. All right, Matt, God bless.

Okay. Hey, folks, I want to give you a call, 208-377-3790, I say it so many times, I don't even think about it, I start thinking about it, going, wait, is that the right number, yes, it is, no, no, I miss all the numbers here, it's 877-207-2276, man, I'll tell you all these numbers in my head, all right, let's get to Valerie from Utah, Valerie, welcome, you are on the air. Hi, Matt, how are you today? I'm doing fine, by God's grace, so what do you got? Well, I was just listening to Pastor Adrian Rogers on his show, before your show, and he talked about baptism, and being, he believed that being baptized in Christ, we need to be submerged, versus sprinkled, and I just wanted to get your take on that, if you don't mind, I'm going to disconnect our phone call, and so I can listen to you on the radio.

Well, I probably, well, no, I'll hear you okay, I'm just driving, so it's all good, I can hear you okay, so anyway, I would like your take on that, please. Sure, I believe that Jesus was sprinkled, not immersed, I also believe that people mistakenly think the word baptism automatically means to be immersed, and it doesn't, and I can show from scripture that it's not the case, but nevertheless, Jesus was baptized, and that's in Matthew 3.15, and it specifically says there that Jesus was to be baptized in order to fulfill all righteousness. Well to fulfill, what does that mean? It means Old Testament law.

So what did he fulfill? Well, he had to be 30 years of age, and this is out of numbers 4, then the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron saying, take a census of the descendants of Kohath, sons of Levi, the families, from 30 years up, even to 50 years old, who do work in the tent of meeting, had to be washed with water, and we can see that in Exodus 29, that to be consecrated, they had to be washed with water. Now that's what's interesting, because it says in Exodus 29, 1-4, it says to be washed with water, okay, and in Leviticus 8.6, it says to be washed with water, the priests, to be in this position to be washed with water, and in Numbers 8.7, it says, and thus you shall do for them. Now check this out, this is Leviticus 8.6 and 8.7. When Moses had Aaron and his sons come near and wash them with water, and thus you shall do for them, for their cleansing, sprinkle purifying water on them.

The washing of the water was by sprinkling. Now people are blown away by this, but that's what it says in Leviticus chapter 8 verses 6 and 7. So plus there's a verbal blessing given, you know, Exodus 29, 39, 43, Numbers 6, 22-27, that voice out of heaven, this is my beloved son whom I'm well pleased, and then he had to be anointed with oil, and thus you shall take the anointing oil and pour it on his head and anoint him, Exodus 29, and it goes on. So Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit, he had a verbal blessing, my beloved son whom I'm well pleased, he was 30 years of age, and according to Levitical law, he had to be sprinkled. So there you go.

Now people are surprised by that. Now here's something to think about this, now I'm going to show you something here. This is Joel 2, 2-28, yes, it says, it will come about after this that I will pour out my spirit on all mankind. Pour out my spirit. That's what the scriptures teach, to be poured out. So in that the Holy Spirit is poured, all right.

So if that's the case, we know that that is the case, let me see if I can find more of my notes here, pour, baptize, okay. And so we know that the Holy Spirit is poured out upon. This is Acts 2, 16-18, but this is what was spoken through prophet Joel, and it shall be in the last days God says I'll pour forth my spirit, verse 18, in those last days, I will pour forth my spirit. So there's just lots of places where the Holy Spirit's poured out, in Acts 2, 33, received from the father of the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured forth this, which you've seen. So the Holy Spirit is poured forth, that's how it's prophesied, that's what it is. Now what's interesting is that's what's called the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the pouring forth of the spirit upon people.

Okay. The pouring forth of the spirit, okay. Now in Acts 1, 5, for John baptized with water, but you'll be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now. But if John baptized with water and it means immersion, then notice what it says, for John immersed you with water, you'll be immersed with the Holy Spirit not many days from now. But that doesn't fit, because we're not immersed in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit's poured out upon us. That's the biblical, so besides that, all of Judea was going out to John to be baptized. There were 300,000 people in that whole area, and it says all of Judea and Jerusalem were going out. So how many people are being baptized by John? If he was doing this five days a week at eight hours a day in the Jordan River, there's the issue of hypothermia in the water, but he'd have to be baptizing them like one a minute for eight hours.

It just doesn't make sense. And so I've got more I can show when this kind of thing is going on. John baptized with water, he'll be baptized with the Holy Spirit. So if the Holy Spirit is poured out, could it be that you'll be baptized with water means you'll be poured with, the Holy Spirit will be poured on, or the baptism will be poured on you by John. That's how he could do it for thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of people.

And since Jesus was baptized, according to the law, it looks like he was sprinkled. All right. And I can go more, there's more stuff like this. No, that's fantastic, you know, I love Adrian Rogers listening to him.

I like a lot of the programs that I listen to here on the radio. So but when he had just, I was baptized as a baby as a Methodist, and I know that baptism doesn't save me, it's my faith in Christ and what he did for me on the cross, what he paid it all on the cross. So I know that that's where I'm saying that.

And baptism is just a symbolism. But I just, you know, I find it interesting that the different religions and how they either immerse you or they sprinkle you or that kind of a thing. So I just want to kind of get that, get your take on it, because I value what you have to say. I've listened to you for years and years and years, and this is my first time calling in. So I thank you for taking the time with me today to, you know, show where it originated in the Old Testament, it kind of prophesied forward, I feel like from what you've said, kind of what it was, was a prophecy going forward when it comes to Jesus. And so I just, I thank you for taking the time to talk with me today about that and educate me on it.

Well, I take a view that's not very popular, but the more I study it, the more I'm convinced, well, let's take a look at what it says. And when you start doing that, you go, wait a minute, maybe it's not as clear and cut dry as people say. You know, that's my opinion. Exactly.

Exactly. Well, again, thank you for your time today, Matt, I sure appreciate it. And I will look forward to calling in on another time when I have another question. Well, I hope you do.

That'd be great. I will. Thank you so much. Have a good afternoon. You too. God bless. Thanks. Bye bye. Okay. So what do you think of that, folks? There's a lot more I could have taught on that. This is absolutely not popular, what I'm saying.

But I'm reading the scriptures and going from what it says, and that's why I hold to that position. Hey, guess what? There's the music. If you want to give me a call, all you got to do is dial 877-207-2276. We will be right back. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right. Well, welcome back to the show. Why don't we get on the air with Matt from Winston, whom we just lost.

You want to talk about the King James. We'll be calls back. We can talk about that. And now let's get to Mike from Denver. Hey, Mike. Welcome. You're on the air.

Hey, Matt. Thanks for taking my call. Sure.

All right. I just had a question I thought I would like to pose to you. I know that you're a Calvinist, and I was listening to a debate from several years ago between it was Seitan Roving Kate, who's a Christian apologist, and Eric Ovin, who's also a Christian apologist, and an atheist, David Smalley. They were talking about, you know, the theodicy, which gets talked about a lot. And Cy, who's also, I believe, a Calvinist or a Presbyterian was saying that, well, God is not all loving. God hates some. Do you agree with that?

I just wanted to know what you would take that. Of course. Yeah, it's Psalm 5-5 and Psalm 11-5, God hates all who do iniquity. Yeah.

That's what it says. Okay. So I'm just curious, because why do you think so many of these atheist, creo-Christian debates kind of go around in circles when, why don't more Calvinists just say, well, there's no problem with evil, it's God's not all loving that stops the problem of evil, right? Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. See, hold on. You just mixed some things. You said God's not all loving.

Okay. Now, that's not a biblical statement, okay? All loving. Atheists will often bring this up to me and say, well, if your God is all loving, I say, excuse me, nowhere in the Bible to say God is all loving.

And also, what does it mean to be all loving? Does it mean there's no justice, no holiness, no mercy? Are you taking one aspect of his nature and then raising it above other attributes and then judging God by the one, called the fallacy of composition?

The engine's blue, therefore the entire car is blue. False. So I say you have to take all of what he is, called the doctrine of divine simplicity, so they often misrepresent who God is when they do this. Now, the Bible says in verse 48, God is love, which is really interesting. But it also says he's just, it also says he's holy.

So there are several attributes we have to combine and say how do we work with them all. But yeah, the Bible does say, just for people who aren't sure about this, I'll show you. The boastful shall not stand before your eyes. You hate all who do iniquity. That's Psalm 5-5. And Psalm 11-5 says the Lord test the righteous and the wicked and the one who loves violence his soul hates. So yeah, God does hate people. He hates those who love iniquity and do violence. So when they say God loves everyone, where does it say that in scripture? It doesn't say that. But now Matthew 5, 42-48, it says God loves everyone in a generic sense, what we call providential love, as the sun and the rain fall upon everybody.

That's how he loves everybody, in that sense, or different senses of it. So anyway, go ahead. Okay. Um, maybe like, maybe they're getting at like 2 Peter 3, he's patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance, maybe in the context of hell they're getting at. Does that get us anywhere? No, that's, okay, this is not an easy one to get through quickly. You quoted 2 Peter 3, 9, not wanting for anyone to perish but for all to come to repentance so that we have to ask the question, can God want one thing and arrange another?

And the answer is yes. If God wants everyone to believe, you know, not wanting for anyone to perish, then why is it, for example, in 1 Samuel 3, 14, God said that the iniquities of Eli's house will not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever. Or we go to Mark 4, 10-12, where Jesus speaks in parables and they ask him why, and he says so people will not be saved. And so we have to harmonize everything, not wishing for anybody to perish. Who's the any, or who's the all when it says for all to come to repentance. This is not an easy one.

I can offer several things, it takes about 10 minutes to go through the teaching on this. But so when we talk about people going to hell, then we have to get to Romans 9, 9-23. And then we get into the issue of, and a lot of Christians just don't like this because they don't like this part of scripture, what if God, although willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience, vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.

And so he does this kind of a thing. And then there's Proverbs 16, 4, which says the Lord has made everything for its own purpose, and even the wicked for the day of evil. So often what happens is people bring up one verse, for example, God is love. And then they represent God with the one verse, or God loves everyone, God's loved the world. That means he can't hate anybody. It's not true.

And they stunt their own spiritual, exegetical growth when they do that kind of thing. Okay. Believe it or not, I was talking about this today for a couple of hours earlier today, in line with some people, so, sorry, there's a lot there. All right, thank you.

Maybe I'll call back later and we can follow up on the topic. Thank you. Well, that's okay. So, you know, with the issue of theodicy, with Reformed people, there is no problem of evil. God uses it.

He ordained it. It doesn't mean he caused it. Are you familiar with ultimate proximate and efficient causation? Are you there?

I can, need to brush up on that. Okay. No problem.

So, how about this? Adam and Eve were in the garden and Adam chose, of his own free will, to rebel against God. So Adam freely chose to sin. He is the efficient cause of his own rebellion. God didn't force him. The devil did not force him.

He made his own free will choice and he rebelled and sinned. He's the efficient cause. The proximate cause of Adam's rebellion is the fact that God allowed Satan into the garden.

God made the trees, made Adam put them in that garden. So that's the proximate cause, the circumstances and the situation. But that does not mean God is the efficient cause.

That's Adam's fault. The ultimate cause, God is the ultimate cause of everything because he created the universe and everything in it. And then proximate is he created the circumstances and the place where we're in, but the efficient cause is we do it of our own free will. And so this is another issue of why evil's in the world and God can work with it but not be the efficient cause of evil.

He can have proximate control over it, but he's not the efficient cause and so therefore it's within his sovereign plan. Okay? Okay. Thank you. All right, buddy, God bless. All right. Yeah, those are interesting conversations and it's worth talking about those things more.

I like to teach on those and go through them more slowly and in more detail so Christians can get grounded into more understanding of how God can work sovereignly through various situations because he's a great God. And we have four open lines. If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276 will be, I mean, no, it's kind of hard to get really confused.

Man, I'll tell you, it's already at the bottom of the hour. Wow. It's flying by. So let's get to Alberto from Georgia. Hey, Alberto.

Welcome. You're on the air. Alberto. Hey, buddy.

Are you there? Alberto. I did hit the right button. I'll give him some more time here. Maybe he's doing something else.

He wasn't ready. He calls in frequently. Let's just put him on hold.

And let's see. We've got a couple of minutes. Let me jump on to the next caller. Don't know who it is.

Let me just jump on. And, hey, welcome. You're on the air.

Who's this? How are you? I'm okay.

My name is Margaret. Hello? Yes. Are you there?

Yes, I am. I hear you. Oh, there's a break. Oh, man. I'm sorry.

Could you hold on? We've got a break. There's the music.

Just bad timing on that one. The whole other room. We'll get right back to you after the break.

All right. Hey, folks. We have three open lines. Why don't you give me a call? 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live. Taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right. Welcome back. Everyone, if you want to give me a call, all you have to do is dial 877-207-2276.

Three open lines. Give me a call. We'll get back on the line there with Margaret. Are you still there? I am. Okay.

Hello? Yes. All right.

So what do you got? Well, I guess I just wanted to tease out a little bit the conversation you just had about the garden and Adam's will and God's, I guess you could say, providential. And I agree with the idea that God created everything, he gave Adam a will, he allowed Satan the serpent, and then Adam, of course, chose. And then what died was the spirit. And so, of course, the body and the soul lived, because he talked and there was shame and they had a physical body. And so the spirit died, and that, to me, what's being worked out now is you have to be born of the spirit of God, that's salvation. I clearly understand the Scriptures to say that that's offered to all people, all man. And of course you choose, and something like a vessel made for this and a vessel made for that.

What's your question? Well, I mean, do you actually believe in predestination, that God's left one and stands the other? Of course.

That's what it sounds like. Don't you believe in it? You don't believe in predestination?

No, I believe we're all predestined to choose. Well it doesn't say that in Scripture, it doesn't say that in Scripture anymore. Well, do you have any verse, do you have any Scripture?

Let me tell you, if I knew of it, I would tell you ahead of time. I often help people disagree, oh no, that verse is over here, and I help them out. I know of no verse. What do you do if God forgot to love the world that he came, you know, the very basic Scripture right there? Yeah, well, I'll answer that, but notice the issue of God predestining, that's not John 3.16. Okay, so the issue of God predestinating, that's something that God does, because the Bible says so, and for Christians to reject it is to reject Scripture. But John 3.16 says, God so loved the world he gave his only begotten Son, that all the believing one, pasapistulon in the Greek, all the one believing, it's singular, doesn't say whoever.

Hold on. So it says, do you so ever believe on the... No, no, no, let me finish. The Greek word for whoever is hos, hos. It's not there in the Greek in John 3.16. What it actually says is pasapistulon, all the believing one. That's the literal Greek.

A lot of people have no clue about this, and I have to show it to them. Well, I don't understand all the believing one as that person who made the choice to believe. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Well, you do the hold on, hold on, but I'm sharing as strongly and as adamantly as you that I understand that in fight intimately with the Lord.

I know the Savior, and I know him as my Savior. Okay, okay, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Let me ask you a question. Let me ask you a question. Let me ask you a question.

Let me ask you a question here, okay? Well, you just deny God's word in your rebellion is what you're doing, and you're not listening. I'm trying to help you, then you need to listen. Okay. I'm not trying to force you to do anything. I'm trying to get you to listen for a second. You don't want to listen.

Okay. Well, she's obviously not someone who wants to hear what the word of God actually says. She is someone who is submitting the word of God to what she thinks it says, to her ideology. I tried to get her to listen. She repeatedly refused to do that. I had to hang up on her. She repeatedly refused. So, you know, okay, I'm not going to get into an argument with a woman on the air.

So, I wanted to tell her and show her. I was going to show her the verses that use the word predestined and see if she was going to agree or disagree with what the word of God says, but I was going to ask her a question because this is something that people ask all or say all the time. He simply wants everyone to be saved. Well, does he say that, and where does he say that? And he'll say he wants all men to come to repentance, not wishing for any repentance to perish. And when I talk to them, literally, he was speaking about these very verses this morning for a couple of hours, about an hour, I guess, online at another venue, talking and teaching on this.

And people were hearing, and we're going through things, and I was explaining what it means, what's related, because here's the thing. We have to harmonize all of scripture. We do not want to take one verse and then raise one verse above the other verses. When she brought up John 3.16, and I showed her what the Greek said, she basically kind of dismissed it and went on to something else. She wants all to be saved. I was going to ask her, very simply, I was going to ask her, are you sure that God wants everyone to believe?

And she's going to have to say, well, yes. Then I'm going to take her to Mark 4, 10 through 12, where Jesus speaks in parables, and they ask him why, and he says so that people will not believe. Then you have to ask the question, why is it, if God wants every individual, as they say, to be saved, why does Jesus speak in parables so they won't be saved?

That's not the case that every individual will be saved. That's the difficult question to ask them, and they don't want to even get that far. She wouldn't even listen, trying to get to that place of having a conversation. She's willing, she's welcome to call back again, but she's got to be polite.

And I just want her to actually deal with what the text says, not with what she thinks it says in her denial of God's word, because that's what she was doing. Alberto from Georgia, are you there, buddy? Yes, sir. Sorry to interrupt earlier with the traffic they're putting here.

It's all right. Yeah. What do you think about preachers that demand holy living from the congregation, yet they themselves don't live up to the very demands that they demand from their members? Well, that's hypocrisy. That's hypocrisy. That's bad.

They shouldn't do it. Okay. That's what I think. You know?

Yeah. So they'll put you in shame for the congregation when somebody's supposed to be revealed your sin and put you in shame for the congregation, but the whole thing's all rigged up. I mean, like it's all set up between the church members and the deacons and all that.

Then they claim that God told them, something got there from the day before, we can ask for forgiveness. Alberto, what are the things I noticed? Go ahead. You're interesting. You're different. You call up and not complaining at all.

I enjoy your calls, so please keep calling. Yeah. But you're different.

I'm not from you. I did that. You're a bit different in that you see things and then you ask these questions that you usually about the inconsistencies of people's actions, beliefs and things like that. It's really interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

I hear what you're saying for that lady. I have to deal with the same problem I'm talking about with my brother or other people because then they talk all their life about a certain denomination or they're not willing to learn the real Greek words, which was intended in the original language and that time was written in manuscripts. A lot of people don't know that. You know? Yeah. I mean, we've been studying it for years and years instead of being quiet and listening. But just because I've been studying it for years doesn't mean I'm right, but I have been studying it for a long time and so I can actually go through and find the verses that talk about people being predestined and what I want to do is see like she just didn't want to hear her.

I mean, she just kept going. Mm-hmm. One thing to another to another and, you know, it's a problem. It's pretty common in the church, you know, because they don't have a good foundation. Yeah.

Yeah. So I had to deal with that situation. It was the deacons. I tried to say something. They thought they screamed. They shout you down and I'm willing to listen. You know, even my pastors, my original pastor I had out in Florida, but his wife, when I was in Sunday school class, I said, I said, question, she started screaming, interrupted me constantly. Don't let me ask the question in the Sunday school class, she was being really rude. You know, even the deacon, one time the preacher was trying to preach and the deacon in front was constantly interrupting the preacher and everybody was quiet. That's him. He was constantly interrupting the preacher, interrupting the preacher.

That's a particular instance. I don't know if it's representative of all people, but I have talked to thousands and thousands of Christians. I've been on radio for 17 years. My website's had almost 150 million visitors. We've got thousands and thousands of emails. I've talked on PalTalk, Discord, Clubhouse, Facebook, Skype. I've talked to thousands of people and I've learned a lot of things.

It doesn't mean I'm right about everything, but I've learned a lot and I'll tell you, a lot of people just submit the word of God to their own feelings and I like to shake them up. That's true. Yeah, well, what about this? What about that? What about this?

When you get someone who doesn't want to, and it happens in a lot of places because they already have God figured out and you're not allowed to rock their boat. But at any rate, yeah, and there's inconsistencies everywhere and stuff like that and you see them. So that's what it is. Okay? All right. Thank you.

Thank you for your great knowledge through the scriptures. God bless you. Okay. Well, God bless, man. God bless. All right.

Hey, folks. We have four open lines if you want to give me a call. I don't know if the break's coming up any second, but the number 877-207-2276. Please give me a call and we can talk. It's up to you. All right. We'll be right back after these messages.

All right. Welcome back, everyone. If you want to give me a call, all you have to do is dial 877-207-2276. Let's get to Mark from Winston-Salem, North Carolina. Mark, welcome. You're on the air.

Mark, hello. I'm talking to you. Hopefully, you can hear me.

We just may have to hold off a little bit. Okay. We'll put him on hold and let's get to the next caller, which is Kevin from New York. Kevin, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, Matt. Yeah. You asked me to call in, so here I am. Okay. What do you want to talk about? So addressing that lady's point, obviously... Oh, you're breaking up.

You're breaking up. Can you repeat that? You're roboting there. Hello. Can you hear me now? Okay. There we go. Now we can hear you.

Go ahead. Yeah. So obviously, God has predestined people. I don't know what that woman's understanding of that is because she didn't get to the point. But the point is that I was trying to say is that I would agree that God desires that none should perish but all come to repentance. And he said, well, then why did Jesus speak in parables so people wouldn't believe?

Well, I think God, you know, because he knows everything, he knew those people wouldn't believe anyway. Well, hold on a second. Israel had their... Hold on. Let's address that.

Yeah. Is there a place, do you think, where people, without God's intervention and, you know, any work on their souls, anything like that, where, let's just say, they're just their natural state, you know, unbelievers, and someone preaches, is that enough to say them in and of it by itself in their freedom? What, just by hearing the word of God? Just that, without God working on them, doing anything, just hearing the word, is that enough? Well, hmm, that's a tough question because it says that faith come by hearing and by hearing the word of God, and how would people hear it unless a preacher is sent, right? So the Bible definitely says that faith comes from hearing the word of God. Now if you're asking, does God go an extra step to prepare people to hear the message? I think that's true too.

Okay. Because the question then becomes, as an unbeliever, in his state of unbelief, is he capable of believing in God out of his own sinful free will? Since the Bible says the unbeliever is a hater of God, doesn't seek for God, can do no good, doesn't desire him, is full of evil, is dead in his trespasses and sins, so then he would not be able to of his own free will, logically, right? No, I believe we have the free will choice to choose God, it's just that people reject it because they're hardened, dead in their sins. But if the Bible says the unbeliever, period, the unbeliever cannot understand or receive the things of God, that he does not seek for God, he does no good, he's a slave of sin, so how would someone like that just believe? Well, because the Holy Spirit is your husband.

You're not hearing. Okay, so, in other words, he can't, you're saying he can't of his own free will, right? That God has to do something, right? Well, see, but here's the thing, because I believe that the Holy Spirit draws all men. Jesus said if I'd be lifted up, I would draw all men to myself, so I think that we're all drawn... Technically, technically, technically, hold on, hold on, technically, Jesus said that, it's not the Holy Spirit who draws, but Jesus who draws, okay? Okay. All right. Well, are they not one God?

Yeah, that's another topic, but Jesus says if I lift from the earth, I will draw men to myself, John 12, 32. So it's not proper for you to say the Holy Spirit does that. Okay. Okay.

That's fine. Yeah. Well, the Holy Spirit's job is to convict the world of sin and righteousness, right? Right. That's right. Exactly.

So they hear the word of God preached, they understand, wow, I've broken God's commands, I'm a sinner. There you go. That's the Holy Spirit's job.

So I would say it's part of the drawing process. Good. So then, you're admitting then that an unbeliever of his own, just own naked, unassisted free will won't believe in God, right? Oh, yeah, I could agree with that without hearing the preaching, yeah.

How would they... Well, even with the preaching, I mean with the preaching, okay, they have to be convicted, right? The Holy Spirit convicts. Jesus says you cannot come to me unless the Father draws you, John 6, 44 and John 6, 65. He says you can't come to me unless it's been granted to you from the Father. And the Bible says that you have been granted to believe, Philippians 1, 29. So this is, more and more, we're seeing what God does, right, not what man does, right? Okay.

Right? Okay. But I believe that every man has been granted the measure of faith, it's just people put it in the wrong things, and God grants those who come to him to believe.

Okay. Well, this is what Jesus says, let's balance it, let's balance it, because this is good conversation. So Jesus says in John 6, 37, 38, 28, John 6, 28, they were saying to him, what must we do to work the works of God? And Jesus said to them, this is the work of God that you believe in him. Believe on the Son, yep. So it's the work of God that a person believe in Jesus, right? Absolutely.

Okay, good. So then why is it some don't believe in Jesus? Because they harden their hearts, it says that God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. That's true out of James, that's true. So is it the only way to believe because God grants that you believe? No.

It's because God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. Okay. But it says in Philippians 2, or 129, it says to you it has been granted, has been granted is the aorist passive. What translation is that, Matt? It's the NASB, but I'm giving you the Greek.

Okay, it's the aorist passive. Oh, okay, because I don't, I'm a majority text only kind of guy. Like I'm not King James only, but I'm majority text only. I reject all the other manuscripts. You can reject all you want.

So if it's not in the majority text, I don't believe it. Which one do you want me to go with? King James? King James, New King James, modern King James, Geneva Bible, yeah.

So pick one, right? And so let's go to Philippians 129 in the King James. Okay, go for it. Okay.

It says to you it has been given in behalf of Christ, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer. Okay. It has been given to you, it is given, right? That's the verb, right?

Echariste. Yeah. Okay. It's the aorist passive indicative. What that means is, it's the past tense that you receive the action, and it's indicative in its proclamation, it's actually a fact. So it has been given that you believe, or it's been granted that you believe. It's been, it occurs to you.

Who does that? And man, can I suggest that it's granted because you have humbled yourself. Oh, so God grants it to you because of how good you are. Wow. No, no. Yes. Yes.

Yes. There's none good but God. Well then why'd you say because you humbled yourself? Isn't being humble a good thing? Well you have done it, the Bible definition of good is perfect.

There's none perfect but God. Nope. Nope. Nope.

Nope. No. No. No. No.

No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.

Yes. So this is the Bible definition of perfect. You don't have any verses for that.

People do that all the time. They make up theology. God's standard is himself. God's standard is himself. Not us. Yeah, exactly. And he's the only perfect one.

That's the standard. Yes, we are not. So if it's up to us to believe, just simply up to us completely and totally, why is it I'm not saying it's totally up to us.

I'm not saying it's totally up to us. I believe that salvation is all God's doing. I believe that. I believe that God is sovereign. I just, I also believe that he has created us with a free will choice and he foreknows who will believe and who won't. And then those he foreknew would believe he is elected and put in the Lamb's Book of Life at the foundation of the world. It's prejudiced for us to be conformed within the image of Jesus.

So he foreknows who's gonna believe. Alright, do you have any verses for that? Any scriptures? Yes, 1st Peter 1-2. 1st Peter 1-2 says that? 1st Peter 1-2 according to the four... Yeah, the elect according to the four knowledge of God the Father. Can I read it?

Let me read it, okay? Who were chosen, right, according to the four knowledge of God the Father. So you're saying then that God knows what people are gonna do and he saves them based on what he sees they're gonna do?

No. So it's not based on what they do. Okay, so what is it based on then? What's the foreknowledge mean? This foreknowledge means he knows everything.

Does it? Where'd you get that? Yeah.

Where'd you get that? Well, you can't take away from God's foreknowledge. No, you're assuming foreknowledge means that he knows the future in all things. It might be.

I'm saying I do this with Christians all the time. Don't assume it. What does it actually say?

Can I say something? I want to see what you think about it. Okay.

Okay, so check this out. So before time began, before God created anything, he foreknew all his sheep that would believe. So before we ever existed, he has chosen us. We believe, right, because he knows who all would believe. So before anything was created, he knew you, me, everyone that would believe. So in time, it appears like we're choosing God, but in reality, it's him that chose us first.

So you just said we believe because he knows all who would believe. That doesn't make any sense. That doesn't make any sense. It's a non-coherent state. Well, yeah, from our perspective, it doesn't. No, no, no, it's incoherent, period. We believe because he knows who would believe.

That's not, that doesn't work. We don't believe because he knows who would believe. We believe because he granted that we believe. In fact, Acts 13 48 says many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. They're appointed to eternal life. That's why they believe, because God appointed them to eternal life. And why were they appointed to eternal life?

Because they believe on the Son. No, that's conditionalism. That means that God is choosing them from the foundation of the world because of a good quality he sees in them, namely that he'll believe in Christ. Yes, it is.

Yes, it is. You are saying that God will choose someone based on his foreknowledge that they will believe. You're saying his choice is based on something he sees in them. That's favoritism. It's rejected in Scripture. No, it's not favoritism. It's God working through free will creatures and still being sovereign. It's favoritism.

It's humanism. God does not have people saved because of a good quality in them. Would you agree? I agree. No, there is nothing good in us. Okay, good.

So is there a condition which people are, you know, God looks into the future, so to speak, whatever that means. Okay, for now we won't get into that. No, no, no, no, no. What do you mean no?

What, what, are you there? God, no, no, no. Hold on, I want to clarify because I don't want you to think I'm one of those Armenian morons that think God is the time.

I wouldn't call them morons, but, but anyway, go ahead. I believe that God has always known everything and there was never any point where he did not know all things, ever. Good. Now this foreknowledge of God that he obtains, has, obtains, whatever you want to call it, is it based on... Well, he didn't obtain it, he just only had it. Yeah, that's right. Is it based upon what he sees people will do? No, it's based upon what he knows. Well, you don't understand? What he knows, what's it based on? Okay.

What's it based on? Here's the answer. It's based on his decrees, not on what he understands people will do in different circumstances. Because they can't exist and do anything under any circumstance unless God grants that they exist. But he would only grant that they exist if it's his will and choice to do that. Therefore, the reason they would make any choice is because ultimately it's the foundational work of God. And this is why he knows what will happen.

Now that's the right answer. But we don't have time right now to get into it. Call back tomorrow, buddy, okay? It's a great conversation, all right? Well, okay, is it done?

Yeah, we'll be right at time. Sorry, there's the music. Hey, folks, I hope you enjoyed that. I did, I loved it. Hope you call it back tomorrow. May the Lord bless you, by his grace. We're back on here tomorrow. Talk to you then. Another program powered by The Truth Network.