Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick Live. Mac is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at Carm.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers. Taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Hey everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick, and your list of Matt Slick Live if You want to give me a call on this lovely June 11th, 2025? All you've got to do is dial 877. 2072276, and we can get to your calls.

You can also send an email to info at carm.org. Info at carm.org And um And then we can get to you there.

Alright, we've got nobody waiting right now. And let's see, there's this, there's that. Put this over here. I always have lots to do at the beginning of the show.

Now, um So I had an interesting discussion last night online with um With an Eastern Orthodox person, and nothing bad came out of it. This is one of the few good conversations I ever had. We talked about the sovereignty of God and the majesty of God and all kinds of stuff. And got into the issue here of talking about um The knowledge and wisdom of God. And what I tried to do in this discussion was to was to witness about the truth of who God is.

and what he d has done. See, a lot of uh people don't seem to put together The issue of God's great sovereignty and his great wisdom. With uh everything works in the world. In Ephesians 1.11 it says that all God works all things after the counsel of His will. All things after the counsel of his will.

All right.

Okay.

So when I ask people what does that mean, A lot of times, they don't really want to answer the question. And it's usually in the context of the sovereignty, majesty of God, including election, predestination. And people have an inherent resistance to the sovereignty of God. They want their own sovereignty. One of the questions I asked the same gentleman a couple of nights prior with something very simple that he refused to answer.

It was a simple question. Does God know what it would take? and how to do it to bring any individual anywhere, any time. that's ever lived. Into the faith.

In other words, does God know what it needs to what He does God have the ability to bring anybody into the faith anytime, anywhere? That's the question. He wouldn't answer the question. And the reason, I believe, he wouldn't answer this question. Is because if it is the case that God can do that, which it is the case.

It is the case that God knows exactly what is necessary. what to do with anybody, any time. In order to bring anybody into the faith. He did this with Paul the Apostle. He uh opened the Hearts of Lydia to believe the things that were spoken of by Paul.

Isaac sixteen fourteen. Jesus opened the minds of the uh disciples.

so they could understand what he was teaching. And we and in Proverbs 21:1 says that God moves the heart of the king. where he wishes it to go. And so This question is a difficult question for a lot of people. particularly if they are resisting the the the divine sovereign doctrines of grace.

So, if God does know how to bring anybody to the faith. And as they like to say, uh doesn't force them. But he's got to be a gentleman, of course. That's that's what they say. And that uh has to uh work with God's with person's free will.

It has to always be about human free will. Always. And so uh When When I ask uh the question Does God know what it takes to bring anybody into the world, into the faith, to convince anybody by their own free will to believe? They won't answer the question. Because the next question is then why doesn't he do it?

And they I've asked this question before. Mm-hmm. And I'll tell you that They They do not like the question. They don't like having to face the idea that God chooses not to bring every individual into faith. What they'll do this kind of a preamble of so of stuff.

is They will uh Go to 2 Peter 3.9. You know, God is patient towards you, not wishing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance. And also 1 Timothy 2.4. that uh he desires all men to be saved. This is a question.

It's a good question. It's something I wonder about. Why does he say that? And yet He speaks in parables Jesus speaks in parables so people will not believe. That's uh Mark 4, 10 through 12.

And he He, um knocked Paul off his horse in Acts chapter nine. and got Paul to believe, you know, and spoke to him audibly. And did that. Why does he do it to everybody? And it's a question I don't have an answer to.

It's a question I don't have an answer to. Except to say Well, 'cause he chooses not to. That that's the only answer I have. He just chooses not to do that.

Now why does he choose not to do that?

Now that's the question. I don't know. Because why would he say he doesn't want any to perish, but for all to come to repentance? and yet chooses Not to save people. He speaks in parables, Jesus does, so people will not be saved, not be forgiven.

And so I've been thinking about this for quite a while. And I I don't have any answers, so I'm just gonna muse out loud a little bit this thing. We're made in the image of God, we have what's called the communicable attributes of God. that um we can think just as God thinks. You know, God loves, we can love.

God hates, we can hate. God reasons, we can reason. These are the communicable attributes of God. And we have this aspect called free will.

Now, free will is that which is consistent with your human nature. You can't choose to do something you can't even conceive of. If there's no concept in your mind about something, you can't make a choice about it because you're just unaware of it.

So your free will is limited by your nature to be able to choose that which you can become aware of or conceive of. And if you can't conceive of something, how do you make a choice of it? Because there's no options there for you.

So what is this free will?

Well, free will is like that and People can be approached with the gospel, have the the gospel preached to them. And They will choose to reject.

Now, this is because their hearts are wicked and deceitful. And in line of this, Jesus says that no one can come to him unless it's granted by the Father. John 6:65. Why doesn't God grant it to everybody? And You know, as the answer is, well, because he chooses not to, there's another answer.

And this is a more difficult answer. But for God's glory. And That one, you know, makes me scrunch my, you know, my brow to guttered, you know. What does that mean? Because God says we're made for His glory, Isaiah forty three, seven.

And he is the greatest of all beings. No one is equal to him. No one is beyond him, he answers to no one. His ways are not our ways. And You know, I'm okay with that.

But I'll tell ya. Maybe you're like this. Why doesn't God intervene in more people's lives. Is it because there's something about free will that he submits to? Is it because there's something about free will that we don't understand, how it re relates to God's nature and his omniscience?

Is there something about God knowing things that we just can't even begin to understand. I mean, all of these issues and questions And I'm not sure how to answer them. But these are some of the questions, though. that I wonder about. And I think about.

And I don't understand how to answer 'em sometimes. Yeah.

So I don't know. Anyway, these are some of the things I I wonder about. But I know this. That you can't come to Christ unless it's granted by the Father, John 6:65. and that God grants that you have repentance, Second Timothy two twenty five.

So Okay. Why doesn't God do that? More. And here's another question. You know, my wife has a lot of medical issues.

She really does. And I do. appreciate all your prayers for her. It's it's very, very difficult for her and getting worse. And um It's it's just very it's very hard on her.

And I pray on a regular basis, you know, please heal her, and God doesn't.

Well, here's the question.

Well, why doesn't he? I'm not complaining. I just well, just Why? Why doesn't he heal people? of various things.

Like, I have ringing in my ears. It's very loud. Had it for over 30 years, it's really annoying. But it's what it is. I prayed countless times for God to heal.

He doesn't. And it reminds me of Paul the Apostle. He says that he was buffeted with an infirmity in the flesh. But the reason was to keep em humble. God works with our will, with our bodies.

There's something deep down inside. that we are accountable to. And God knows, there's something in the Maggiodei. the image of God that we are made in, the Imaggio Day. that uh that we're just not aware of.

at least I'm not aware, maybe some better theologians than me uh are.

Now, as I was discussing this, we'll get to the caller after the break coming up in a couple of minutes, but as I was discussing this. Does God know what it takes to save anybody anywhere, anytime? The person said it was a loaded question. and refused to answer it. I know why he refused to answer it, because it didn't fit his theology.

Because the seriousness of it just didn't. Because in his theology it's all about free will. It's all about your cooperation with God. That's all it is. God and so that question is just out of bounds.

So I looked up what a loaded question is. It's a question that is built on, has a built-in assumption. often a controversial or unjustified assumption.

So that any straightforward answer appears to admit something the respondent doesn't agree with. It's kind of like a trick question.

Well, I actually typed in and asked, I went to an AI source, and I said, Is it a loaded question to ask? Does God know whatever it takes to save anyone? And now I've just, you know, I just give it a shot, and it says, no, it's not a loaded question. because it's just a straightforward yes or no. Yes, he does.

And uh A loaded question is such that if you answer one way, you lose. And this guy said, Well, do you s you still beat your wife? And I said, well, that's not a true dichotomy. Like I said it to him. I said, it's either the case that God knows whatever it takes to bring people to faith or anybody and everybody, or not the case.

There's no middle option. No third option. It says you're presenting something that's different. And it was interesting to see how people worked So hard against. the will of God.

Now here's a question. What do you think about free will? What do you think? Do you think your free will is the sovereign decider of everything? Do you think you, in your wisdom, are the sovereign decider of your salvation?

You and your free will are the sovereign decider of keeping your salvation. Those are good questions to discuss about. with people. Join a call me 877-207. 2276.

We'll be right back after these messages. It's Matt Slick Live, taking a call at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, everyone, welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, it's easy 877207.

2276. All right, let's get to Chris from South Carolina. Chris, welcome. You're on the air. Man, how you doing, buddy?

Hanging in there, man. More hanging than in there, but hanging in there.

So well we're getting older. Yes. Yes. You know how we have seasons? Mine's in the hurricane season lately, so that's what I tell everybody.

Well, my my summer's just beginning, so But uh the question that I have and I The question is I have and I was asked um many, many years ago, a couple of decades ago, I was sitting at mind and mom's business, and an individual came up to me and asked me this, and I've never forgotten it. And I didn't know the correct answer, and I told them I didn't know the correct answer, but the question was. Is someone goes to heaven if they've never heard of Jesus? Like, let's say someone's in the middle of. A desert or a jungle or somewhere, you know, in a real Antarctic or wherever.

And I was like, well, I don't, I thought for a second. And I was like, well. I don't know if God would want to Send someone to hell. for not believing in him. Or or all, but I'm thinking that was probably the wrong Answer and the guy got very upset about it.

And he stated the only way to go to heaven is through Christ, which is true. And like I said, I wasn't as knowledgeable then. But what do you think about that scenario? All right, let me lay it down first. There's two views that we need to look at.

One's called exclusivism and one's called inclusivism. Exclusivism says that they have to actually hear the name of Jesus and the gospel preached in order to be saved. Inclusivism says no, not exactly. There might be someone in a desert or a jungle to whom God could communicate sufficiently uh the doctrines or the truth uh to save him. Since it is God who is the sovereign king and can give someone a vision or a dream about a helper, a messiah, a deliverer, and the person.

Submits to that without properly knowing Jesus.

So I'm an inclusivist in that sense, in that though the only way to salvation is through Christ, God has His ways of communicating to people who have not specifically heard Him, but They can the equivalent understanding By visions, by dreams, by whatever it is that God would work in an individual because God is the sovereign king. But such a salvation is not aside from Christ, but only through Christ. And I believe that God can reveal Himself and the person work of Christ, whichever level and manner He chooses to, to anybody that God chooses to. That's my position.

Okay.

So you're saying that, like, let's give an An example like a Native American eight hundred years ago Here in the US Um Could see God through Mother Nature or whatever. Is that kind of what Mother Nature? No, I wouldn't say that. I would say that, let's just say it was an American Indian 800 years ago. And he's pondering the nature of God and existence.

And why is he pondering? Because God is working on his heart. And he's out there by himself on the plains one day and he sits down and looks at the sunset. And he believed that there's a great Creator, a single Creator. This is because God's working on him.

And then later, God could put it upon his heart that he's a sinner, that he's failed, and that this man appeals to God and says, Well, I just trust in what you have. Is that enough to save him?

Well, think about the Old Testament saints. They didn't know the name of Christ. they had a sacrificial system. and they were able to be saved by the looking forward to the Messiah. Even though they didn't know who he was, or did they didn't have an understanding, it would certainly seem that the Old Testament saints did not have an understanding of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

And yet they were justified, as it says, Abraham was justified by faith because he believed in God.

So it's only because of that, like Romans 4:3, Abraham believed God, was credited with righteousness, that he did have the knowledge of the true God because God spoke to him, God communicated to him. Could God do that to a guy, an American Indian, 800 years ago on the plains? Yes, he could. He could communicate to him. He can speak to him audibly if he wants.

Speak to him in a vision or a dream.

So I don't have a problem with that. But I don't want anybody to think that, oh, well, then you don't need Jesus. That's not what I'm saying. Quite opposite. It's the only way to be saved is through Christ.

And then what you said about uh creation.

Well, there's three revelations of God, and one is in creation, one is in Scripture, and one is in the person of Christ. And so the things of God can be known, as Romans 1 says, in creation, the majesty and greatness of God.

Now, that's not enough to save somebody, but they will know that there's a creator and a worker of all things. And so they can come to believe that there is this one being, who does this.

Well, then. What happens if the Holy Spirit is convicting such a person? Can he do it?

Well, of course he can. He convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment, not just people who might have heard the word of Christ.

So I believe that God could save people in the Americas and Indians and Aborigines as well. How did it ever happen? I can't say it did. Did it not happen? I can't say it didn't.

But I can say that for example, God is working in the Muslim community of the Middle East, and there's reports of about a million to a million, one to two million Muslims a year are coming to Christ because of visions and dreams. And the Christ that they have heard of is Esau, that's his name, in the Koran. And he's specifically said in the Quran, not to be God, never to have been crucified. And yet they're coming to faith in him in spite of what the Koran says that they've been indoctrinated with.

So, God's able to communicate himself to people.

So, I think he can do that whenever and however he chooses. And I could say more about this, but I've been talking a long time. Go ahead. No, go keep going. You're doing good.

Ha ha ha. Um I remember reading a book. years ago called Bruchco. It's really a good uh book. by Bruce Olson.

Bruchko, B-R-U-C-H-K-O. And it's about a guy Uh he had blonde hair, blue eyes, I think, and he was a Lutheran, and then he says later he got saved, so if I remember correctly. And uh God called him to go to I think it was Columbia, South America, and preach to the Motolone tribe. I I'm I'm maybe not representing every detail correctly, but this I read it like thirty years ago, but it made an impression on me. And so Uh he went there.

And long story short, they received the gospel. He was good at languages, learned their languages, and preached to them. And they received Christ. And later they were talking about this. I'm skipping a lot of really good details about there's some interesting stuff that happened, but I'm just getting to the heart of the issue.

And he asked them, Why did you believe? And they said, They have a prophecy. There was a prophecy in their tribe, in their their nation, their their their people group. Of a man with white hair who would come to them with the words of God written on banana leaves. Look at banana leaves or Bible pages.

And so they were ready to believe because it was there. There's a tribe, I forgot where, And I'll tell you about this after we get back. Oh okay. That has biblical stuff in it and tribes. But we got to hold on, okay, because there's a break.

And I'll tell you about that, too. Hey, folks, you're right back after these messages if you want to give me a call. The number's 877-20722. Seven, six, be right back. It's Matt Slick Live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, everybody, welcome back to the show. Chris, are you still there? Yes, sir. All right.

Are we Per second. Maybe my friend Charlie remembers it. He's he's got a good uh memory for book names. Uh Eternity in their hearts. That's the book.

That just flashed in my mind. Eternity in their hearts. I don't know what that book is. Anyway, uh. There was There was a missionary trying to witness to there's two things that I remember.

Um one is there were these two tribes that would war with each other, and when one would flee, let's say they're they caught a guy or they're chasing a guy, he could run through the jungle and he could jump into a little square made of stones. like a square was you know six, eight, ten inches high, foot high, I don't know. But just something like that. And there's no fence, there's no doors, there's nothing. He just jumps inside and it meant that nobody else could attack him.

And the enemy would find him standing there. All they gotta do is just throw a spear at you kill him. But they wouldn't do it because it was off limits. And it was reflective of The city of refuge. in the Old Testament.

Where does concept come from? Then there's the an issue of firstborn uh son and of the kings being exchanged. and by the first born son being exchanged between two leaders of different groups, peace was was given. There's some really interesting things all over the world like this, where it's like wait a minute, those are biblical things. In fact, in ancient Chinese characters, you know, they're symbols or are pictures that have evolved.

Well, the most ancient uh symbol for a boat is a a mouth. which is a symbol of a human, with a number eight. Eight mouths. In a boat symbol.

Well, I'll use a boat. Why boat with eight mouths? Eight people? Noah's Ark. And garden is a snake with a tree.

Or sin is a snake with a tree. And these weird things that are ancient.

So God has these all over the world. And so I believe he's prepared the hearts and the minds of people and cultures to be ready to hear the truth when the Holy Spirit calls upon them. And so I'd like to say that God casts his net further than we do. But nobody can be saved except through Jesus Christ. without exception.

There's no other way.

Now, what about Mormons and and stuff, Jehovah's Witnesses?

Well, they believe in false gods. Absolutely.

So their faith cannot save them. In fact, it's a detriment to them because their faith is in a direct false God. And if they don't repent of that false God and the false gospel, then they're going to be damned when they die. But you could have a native, for example, who's unaware, who may believe something false, but God works on that person to bring them to monotheism and then salvation by grace, and then an appeal and a hope and a trust in what God can do. And just like the Old Testament saints, that's what happened.

And they were saved.

So that's why I'm an inclusivist in that sense, not an exclusivist. Though I think that might give some people a raised eyebrow when I say that. But as long as they understand it's only through Christ and Christ and God's revelation through people, different places, different times, the way He does, then no problem. I hope that helps. Yeah, it helps a lot.

And I think that I used the wrong term. whenever I said Mother Nature, 'cause I that's a different way of looking at it. Here's People ask me, hey, how do you know that there's a God out there? you know, God didn't Send us a book. or video or anything and says, okay, here's While I'm here.

you know, it's through faith. When I look at m the world and I see mountains. And I see trees and I see the reproduction of humans. And I see examples of what humans need in this world. Uh we need water.

Water here on Earth is a solid, a liquid and a gas. You take out one of those, we no longer have water. It's the cycle that it goes through and everything.

So whenever I look at the world and the was was created also say, okay, this didn't come From nothing.

Something had to create this. Yeah, that's extremely powerful. to believe that. To say, okay, yeah, something was here, you know, and how long was God here? You know, was he here?

twelve hundred trillion years ago or 50,000 years ago. You know, it's extremely complicated, and that's where the questions people always ask me, especially people that. don't know that much about God that are my age and younger. Yeah.

That don't People People want to look at it. And They want an answer. And the answer I I think is like you said like right in front of you. And if God gives us all the answers to every single thing, then why would we need? to be having as much faith.

You know, when you were talking about suffering and all. If we didn't suffer and we had everything we needed, living in the Garden of Eden. You know, people wouldn't People won't be as loyal, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. and uh have as much space as like this. Yep.

So one of the well-being White. No, go ahead. Go ahead. No, no, you go ahead, that's all right. Um What I'm g getting at is Do you think that too?

Like The like why we're going through pain and suffering and all here on earth. Like, um, Because people are like. Why why is why is the devil here? You know, why why does the devil Put these thoughts in people's minds. To think of evil things and to change their way from God or.

not go to God. and be and be persuaded by man. in certain religions, like what you're talking about. Muslims and all that.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's it's these are tough topics and they're they're good topics worth discussing. And um And you're just good. And I think, you know, you're dealing with these issues and relating them to people and talking about them. And I think it's a good thing to do.

So keep it up. All right.

Well thank you. All right.

Okay, brother.

Well, God bless.

Okay.

All right, that was good stuff. That was good stuff. I like that. Hey, if you want to give me a call, the number is 877-207-2276. Let's get to Jason from Tennessee.

Jason, welcome. You're on the air. Hey and Matt, good to talk to you. I've listened to you for a long time now. Actually, I'm thirty nine and I started listening to you on and off.

Okay.

Since I was in college, so I was about eighteen, nineteen years old. And I remember actually back then purchasing your I think you call it the mother of all notebooks. Yeah, something's huge. Yep.

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah, so I got that thing down to. of staples and got that all printed out and putting it in a giant binder. And as a giant reference for a long time.

Um, but I'm calling today. Uh, I may have called a long time in the past, but calling today because uh, something that's been on my mind is. Um You know, you hear as a Calvinist often people talking about um God is the author of evil. There's certain people, I'm on X, and there's a couple. Um People who are more on the free will side who talk about God as the author of evil.

My question is pertaining to. Of Primary and secondary causes. And if you could kind of define that and then talk about how. How I understand that we are responsible, as Scripture says that we're responsible for our sin. God is not the author of evil, but can you explain that?

How primary and secondary causes kind of Go. I don't know if it fixes that, but kind of explains that. Um Yes.

Okay, so primary causation would be in the context of Christianity it's God's direct and sovereign action that brings about uh an event. Brings an event to actuality.

So, for example, creation of the universe is a direct cause, direct work, creation of mankind. Miracles like the parting of the Red Sea. These are by the direct hands of God. He's the primary cause. Our regeneration.

God is the primary cause of our regeneration. We don't regenerate ourselves. God does this. A secondary cause is something that occurs or is caused to occur within the realm of the primary.

So created means of action. it could be whether personal or impersonal.

So such things as human decisions. We can generate our own decisions. But the reason we generate our own decisions is because God is the primary, or I'm going to say, the ultimate cause.

So, God is the ultimate cause of all things, which means that nothing can occur without Him. Let me take a tangent here before we get to the break. There's what's called efficient causation, proximate causation, and ultimate causation.

So Adam was in the garden. He chose to eat the fruit. He disobeyed. No one forced him. He is the efficient cause of his own sin.

God is the proximate cause of his sin in that God created the garden, allowed the snake to come in, said, don't eat of that fruit, and allowed Eve to tempt Adam. And so God's the one who arranged the condition in which an efficient cause occurs.

So God is, he's the primary cause by creating everything, but inside of that, the secondary causes are the results of those beings and issues that are independent of God's direct action. Hold on, we've got to breakly right back, okay? Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick Live, taking a call at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, everybody, welcome back to the show. Last segment of the hour, let's get back on with Chris. Hey, you're f you're in Idaho, right? Huh.

Oh. Chris? You there? Hey Chris, test it. Oh no, wrong one.

Hold on, put him on hold. And get back to adjacent. I clicked on the wrong thing.

Sorry about that, but maybe Chris will wake up. Anyway, all right, Jason, sorry. I clicked the wrong one. Harry, no problem. No problem.

You got one here. All right.

So did that help any? I I gave you a lot of stuff, but does that help? Yeah.

And I I um as I've pondered this, I started out, I think natural it's natural for new believers to Um, lean more towards a free will view of soteriology. And then I made a a graduate 'cause just 'cause we live in um in space and time. And we experience what we seem to think is this Uh um Well autonomous free will. I then tried to balance it out. I dabbled in.

Yeah, yeah. That's a heresy. A lot of people believe, yes. That is how, yes. I leaned towards I tried to balance it all and I went towards Mullinism for a while.

and listened to a a lot of uh William Lane Craig. But I just saw some inconsistent. He's too smart. He's too smart to be a modelist. I'm surprised.

Yeah, but it's not a good idea. And then I listened to you, and I listened to James White and a couple other guys, and I was like, you know, this Calvinism. It kind of puts us in the right place. It puts God where He belongs, it puts me where I belong. And, you know, when you look at it, I think it's part.

Part of it is just we have a hard time as creatures within time. In space, we don't fully understand and grasp that. Like, there's no way for us to talk about eternity, there's no way for us to talk about. God outside of time because all of our language is time-based. And so I think one of the big things that people have a hard time.

Putting together when it comes to these causes and responsibility and things. It's just people just don't understand. Um time and space. Yeah, you're right. And I've had many discussions on ultimate, proximate, and efficient causation, primary, secondary causation.

Um uh and also which relates to this is um is the infinite knowledge of God of of both actuals and and um Counterfactuals. Counterfactuals are things that don't exist, but they're potentialities. Out of an infinite set of potentialities, God actualized one. And yet, inside of that, we have free will.

Well, what kind? Libertarian or compatibilist? And the discussion gets to be multi-layered and multifaceted. Good end. I I boil it down to uh this is my opinion.

People who hate Reform theology love their own Free will. That they elevate it above everything else, and that in so doing, they risk idolatry. They risk it because they want to say that such free will is autonomous, just like you mentioned. That it is independent of other things and is completely self-generated, and therefore it's by their own will, and it's up to them.

Well, that's humanist philosophy. That is humanism. And it's really bad. And there's lots of there's some other issues with it related. But even and I say to them, did Jesus have free will?

Yes. Well, in John 5:19, John 5.30, he says he could do nothing of his own will, but only what he saw the Father do.

So did he have free blood?

Now they're stuck because his free will was to do the will of God the Father and nothing of his own initiative, but he had free will. This proves compatibilist free will and that the sovereignty of God is compatible with human free will, which is what Jesus certainly possessed, and that Jesus came to do the will of the Father.

Well, there you go. And Jesus' will was not independent or autonomous from the created order of God in in the sovereignty because he's a human under the created order and had to work within that.

So, yeah, it gets to be difficult, but people are let's just say. obstreperously recalcitrant. when it comes to this.

Well, Matt, I appreciate your reply there. Let me ask you a real quick question. Your website, you've been known for someone who is full of A lot of knowledge on various topics. I know Mormonism is something that you've been really strong in. uh from your past.

Can you tell me like what Can you name one or two things that you think that you excel in? being obnoxious. In theology, in theology. Oh, uh I think well, if I could dare uh say uh I think I'm pretty good at the doctrine of the Trinity, uh the personal work of Christ, and uh justification by faith and salvation. Uh So that I can defend really well the nature, godhood of God, the work of Christ.

related to the law And our salvation. Those I know very well. And dare I also boast a little bit further, hope it's not too much of a boast, is I could stand up on a stage, for example, and from memory just teach on Calvinism, quoting verses. I could do it for an hour to two hours without opening a Bible because for notes, I just have it memorized.

So I know those topics pretty well. I hope that's not uh A boast, but I I've been doing it for so long to the Taikan, so I know those pretty well.

Okay.

Awesome.

Well, thank you very much, Matt, for what you do. I appreciate your time, and have a great rest of your day.

Well, you too, my brother. God bless. Thanks. Appreciate it.

Alright. Yeah.

All right, that was Jason, and I had a good discussion with him. Let's get to Chris from Idaho. Chris, are you there? Yeah, Matt, how are you? Good.

Hey, we've talked before, haven't you called before? I've said, hey, where Nado are you? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I've called a few times. I listen, I tune in quite a bit and.

I um subscribe to you on Facebook so your live feeds pop up. Oh good. Remind me, what city do you live in? Yeah, but That's what I thought. Have we ever met?

Yeah, we met. I went to one of your Bible studies. I think it was. a Bible study um off of Emerald and Orchard or something like that somewhere around there, but uh you were my brother came with me and you met him and we were kind of all discussing I I forgot what the topic was, but it it was pretty interesting.

Well, just to let you know, um, we live in the same city, um On first and third on third Thursday of each month, we just have people come over to the house and then they just talk.

So you're welcome to to do that. You can just call you can email me and say, hey, you know, and tell me who you are and stuff like that. We'll do that. But also, I'm seriously considering starting a Bible study on the book of Hebrews. And we teach it every other week instead of every week, just every other week.

And something like that.

So, anyway, just thinking. But probably we'll do that because we can't get into Hebrews.

Okay.

It's uh well, I have a friend who Um He just moved back into town. He he moved to Oregon for quite some time and he's back in church. All right.

You know, meet up sometime and kind of talk about that. You can kind of pick your brain a little Sure, you ever want to do coffee someplace sometime? Yeah, we could do that too, you know, because it's right here, local and everything. Yeah, no problem. Nice.

That'd be great, yeah.

So, um Okay. Yeah, so the question is regarding the final battle between God and Satan.

Okay.

Is that a physical or spirit like Another thing that I'm trying to like reconcile like Jesus is all good and want to get something that's complete evil. How does that how does that work?

Well, um There is going to be a physical battle, and Armageddon is it. I've been to the valley, seen it. It's incredible. But it's going to be a physical battle and a spiritual battle. Jesus, Paul says in Romans 6:12, it's going to be Ephesians 6:12.

We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities of darkness.

So there's going to be a spiritual aspect of it, but it's going to manifest physically.

So it's going to be both. And if you go to Matthew 24, Luke 17, two men in the field, one is taken, one is left. The ones who are taken are the wicked, not the good. And That hill I will die on, because when you read the context, that's just what it is. And so they're going to be taken to a place of judgment.

And when they ask Jesus, where are they taken? In Luke 17, he answers the question: where the body is the vultures gather.

So it looks like this is all part and parcel of the final battle of judgment. There'll be physical and spiritual things going on all over.

Okay.

Yeah, and then another thing down So We're kind of losing you. I think it might be driving or something, but you're kind of going in and out. Try it again. Oh, sorry, hold on one sec. Is it better?

I think so. Yeah, I was just Yeah, I was just saying like uh it the idea that, you know, Satan is completely evil and him going up against God who's all good. I mean, Jesus would have to have some type of Some type of angst or something in him, right? I mean,. It broke up, but angst isn't something I think that Christ would have.

It implies a deficiency. But the question is: why doesn't he just snap his fingers and Satan's gone?

Well, there's more to history going on, and it has to do with us being made in his image and the righteous judgment of God upon people who have served the evil one.

So that it's not just snapped his finger, now they're in hell, they didn't do anything, but that they are culpable for their own choices. And in their rebellion against God, it will come to The culmination of all things at the Battle of Armageddon, then the new heavens and new earth will be made.

So, okay. Nice. Okay.

Well, hey, I think that covers it. And yeah, I'll shoot you out an email and we'll try to connect sometime for sure.

Sounds good.

Sounds good, man.

Okay.

All right.

Okay.

God bless. All right, back. God bless. All right, bye.

Okay.

All right.

Yeah, Idaho. Been here 21 years. Wow. Cannot believe that. From Southern California.

I'm glad I'm not down there where all the riots and everything is happening. And I call it the People's Republic of California. My wife and I left. One of the reasons we left was because we didn't like the politics that was going on and how they were invading the home school society, how they were trying to make us do things and say things and teach our kids in our own home.

So you forget that stuff. We got out of there. But anyway, there you go. That's just a side note. But I hope you've enjoyed the show.

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