Where there is Debt, there is Slavery

From the Salvation Army, you're listening to Wonderful Words of Life. Welcome back, everybody, and welcome Cheryl Gillum, our newest host with the most. We're glad that you're here.

Thanks, Bernie. The Salvation Army is sheltering in place all over the country, as well as, you know, on the front lines of trying to provide human need. And I don't know how it's been for you, Cheryl, but it's been kind of crazy working from home for me. I don't know. Yeah.

Our house is a little tiny, and I have a 17-year-old trying to do digital learning. And so trying to find a good space to work and not feel like you're, you know, like I'm claustrophobic and I need to get out. So there's been times I've gone out into the deck and worked and just trying to get out and get some fresh air, but it's been challenging. But it's also been good to be around your family and to be able to interact in ways that for a long time we haven't been able to. Sure.

We live and work in the Atlanta, Georgia area in the southern part of the United States. And one of the interesting things about Atlanta for the listeners that may not know is we have a lot of pollen in the air from the trees and such. So it's a terrible time to be going through a pandemic where everybody's nervous about conditions like cold type symptoms.

And this pollen, you don't have to be allergic to it, but you'll come out in the morning and your car will be like a tint of green because there's so much dust on it from the pollen and you can cough or sneeze and then everybody around you is nervous. We're going to get through this. I am convinced that God is very much aware of what's going on in the world and He has not forgotten us. He will not forsake us. But I also believe that we need to be wise in our interactions and remain socially distant and just wait.

Just wait this out. It's going to be okay. And I should say, too, that our hearts go out to all of the people who have been caught up in either a furlough or a termination or a layoff of some sort.

You, too, are not alone. There are millions of people joining the unemployment lines and our country is doing its level best to keep up with that. And we want you to know if there is something that you need or you're having trouble meeting or finding a resource that you need in your household, please reach out to your local Salvation Army.

There are people there willing and waiting to serve. Now, we've been talking with Mike Harris and in this episode, he and I began to discuss debt. It's a topic that brings a lot of stress and baggage for many. So to be clear, we aren't 100% anti-debt. Mike mentioned specifically in this episode that there are some positive debts. But Cheryl, for you, when it comes to stewardship, what are your thoughts on debt? I also think that I'm not anti-debt. I mean, we need debt to build up our credit, right?

And so there are some positive things in regards to that when you want to buy some of those bigger ticket items, like a vehicle and a house and all that. But I do feel like we need to use wisdom concerning our debt. I don't think God punishes us for having debt. There are some consequences when we're unwise in our spending and our spending is definitely more than what we bring in or things to that nature. But I do think that debt can hold us captive. And so in regards to that, I do feel like we need wisdom, like you mentioned in the beginning.

It can be overwhelming. And there are some positive consumer-type debts, like owning a home, which, of course, affords you shelter and then offers some significant tax breaks to you as well if you're someone who is going to then be itemizing. Owning a car, which gets you around to and from, hopefully, your employment through your employer.

Those might cost more than you have on hand, but that would be considered a positive investment in my mind. So if you're out there and you have debt, don't fear. But listen to what Mike has to say throughout the episode, because there are some really good nuggets of wisdom.

Absolutely. So today Mike Harris is going to share some thoughts and advice on how to live within your means and avoid unnecessary stress from unnecessary debt. Welcome back, everybody, to this week's series on financial things from our guests' perspective.

Mike, it's great to have you back. I hope that you're finding some strength in sharing these ideas and really just kind of working through what God has brought you to. Yeah, it's actually been interesting because it's helped me to formulate some of my thoughts and ideas and even my attitudes and, obviously, to bring the big biblical principles into these particular subjects.

So it's sort of a journey for me as well, Bernie. Well, there's a scripture in Proverbs 22 that alludes to this thought that where there is debt, there is slavery. Proverbs 22 says, the rich rule over the poor and the borrower is the slave to the lender.

Mike, help me understand that idea. As I think about debt, and I've heard people say that debt is sin, I don't know that I can go through scripture and be that specific. But I can tell you, and the scripture here basically says that, that if you are in debt to somebody, then they have a hold on you.

And really, nobody should have a hold on us except Jesus Christ. So although I won't categorically say that debt is sin, I can certainly see where it allows something of the world to have a piece of us. Now, the question comes up, and I've had this conversation before, where people say, I've got debt to the bank for my house, I've got debt for my car. Well, that's different, I think, because you've got an asset over here that offsets the debt over there. So technically you could argue you're not in debt, it's simply a way of buying something.

So I don't see that as the issue. What I'm seeing as the issue is things like excessive credit card bills, where people build up this mountain of debt on their credit card, and then you pay off the minimum amount every month, and you just incur greater debt because the interest rates are astronomical, the penalties that come with it. It's crazy. And that's where you start to go down that slippery slope of debt. And that's where suddenly somebody has a hold on you. And now I'm glad to say, Bernie, I've never been in that kind of debt.

I haven't. But I've seen where people have been in that kind of debt, and it dominates their lives. When the phone rings, they're fearful.

There's a knock on the door, they won't answer it. And that's what happens when debt comes. And if I look at debt as sin, perhaps that's where you therefore see it, because it starts to dominate your life, and it takes you to a place that you shouldn't be going. I'm sure it's similar around the world, but here in the United States as a college student, you don't have really any credit to speak of. You are immediately in debt because you're having to pay the school for what they're owed, and they set up these loans with you, which thankfully are usually at a lower percentage rate.

But over time, then you discover that you want to buy something while you're in school, and maybe you don't have the cash flow, and you begin to develop your credit score by getting a modest credit card and starting to put things on it. And then one payment in a minimum form leads to a greater payment in a minimum form because of the idea of compound interest. And for our listeners, I think the thing that I'd love for them to hear the most is how we might be able to tackle some of these things that we get ourselves into, particularly debt.

I agree with you, Mike. Owning a home is not really considered bad debt. It's debt, but it's a debt that's reasonable because it leads to an asset that you have. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Yeah. And a car is a means to an end because you need to get to your job. And we live in such a commuter society, particularly here in the States, as opposed to maybe the small town that you grew up in in England, Mike, where you could walk to church and walk to your job or perhaps- You've never been to country. Those things.

My little imagination of England. But for our listeners, help me understand how can we navigate some of these traps that the world gets us into? I think the first thing is to establish a budget.

I mean, in this day and age, I found myself sort of falling into this trap as well. I mean, back in the day when I owned my first bank account, you'd wait every month for the statement to come in the mail. You'd sit down, you'd reconcile your bank account, you'd look at the outstanding checks, the outstanding deposits, and eventually you'd know how much money you have. Whereas now, I just go to my app. How much money do I have?

Oh, it's right there in the app. So because of that, I don't work with a rigid budget as much as I used to. I have a budget in my mind and it works reasonably well. However, if I think about my children, my daughter's 20, my son Michael 18, my son Christian 16, they've got a different starting point to me. And that starting point is, oh, how much money do I have in the bank? Well, what you have in the bank doesn't really tell you what you have. You could have debt over here. And so what we're seeing is, you know, people living on this mindset that what's in the bank is spendable money.

But if you owe money, it's no longer spendable. I think you need to sit down and create a budget. And my big belief is you live off 70% of your income. Try and live off 70%. 10% goes to God. 10%, I think you should put away for savings, for long-term savings 10%, maybe for short-term savings. If you're in debt, maybe that second 10% is additional money to pay off existing debt. But I think basically working on a budget is the key.

So that way you know what's coming in and therefore we can manage what's going out. There are some great Christian financial planners and people that teach living within your means. I think of Dave Ramsey as one of them. We're not looking for any endorsements, but I know he's got some great resources out there, both on the internet and in the form of books.

And there's podcasts and all other kinds of things that you can listen to when you're not listening to Wonderful Words of Life, of course. But Mike, I'm grateful for the idea that you say live within a budget or use a budget to help you live within your means. Now we're talking, of course, after taxes. You're going to have to pay those whom you're obligated to pay.

In the United States, you are immediately obligated to about a 15% tax bracket until you start making more money. And it's important for listeners to understand the idea, you said it, God gets 10%. Now, it's something that we practice as stewards, but that is also a faith thing because it immediately takes away from what you perceive as the money you have available to spend. You're trusting the Lord with that money. And as we've already said in this series, you cannot out-give God.

Why don't you learn to trust Him with the resources that you already have? Come back and join us next week to hear more about Mike's ideas on all things finances. And we pray that you're hearing something that is a blessing to you. God bless you. The Salvation Army's mission, Doing the Most Good, means helping people with material and spiritual needs. You become a part of this mission every time you give to the Salvation Army. Visit salvationarmyusa.org to offer your support.

And we would love to hear from you. Email us at radio at uss.salvationarmy.org. Call 1-800-229-9965 or write us at P.O.

Box 29972, Atlanta, Georgia, 30359. When you contact us, we'll send you our gift for this series. It's totally free for listeners like you, one per household while supplies last. You can also subscribe to our show on iTunes or your favorite podcast store and be sure to give us a rating. Just search for Wonderful Words of Life. Follow us on social media for the latest episodes, extended interviews and more. And if you don't have a church home, we invite you to visit your local Salvation Army worship center. They'll be glad to see you. This is Bernie Dake inviting you to join us next time for The Salvation Army's Wonderful Words of Life.