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These are the words, these are the words, these are the words of life. Welcome back to Words of Life. We are so excited to have on the show with us once again an old friend of ours, author and professor Jason Thacker. He joins us once again to have a conversation about technology through the lens of our faith. Welcome back to Words of Life.
I'm Bernie Dake, and we are privileged today. To have back on the program Jason Thacker, our friend from 2022. Welcome back, Jason. Yeah, thanks guys for having me. I really appreciate it.
We're also privileged to be joined by our very own producer, Chris Benjamin. And as always, Chris Hoffer in the background doing the record engineering. We love it. Hey Jason, tell our folks that might be new to the program who you are and what you're doing these days. Since I was there last, I have transitioned to a full-time professor job.
So I teach philosophy and ethics here at Boyce College and Southern Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, and then serve as a lay elder in our local church and been writing books and talking a lot about a lot of what we're going to talk about today, actually. But my wife, Dory, we've been married for almost 12 years and have two boys, an eight-year-old and a seven-year-old at home. And so let's just say that is always a fun time, especially when daddy gets home. That's awesome. You know, when you were here in 2022 and talking about Technology that doesn't seem like a long time ago, but so much stuff has happened since then.
It feels like it's been ages. Yeah. We are glad you're back. When you were with us last time, you had the release following Jesus in a digital age. What are a few big things that have taken place in the tech space since we last spoke?
Yeah, I mean, kind of the biggest one seems to be what everybody wants to talk about. It's wall to wall media coverage. I mean, news stories, whether it's in education or work or in public policy matters or warfare, just the rise of the kind of popular conversation surrounding AI. I mean, AI is everywhere. That seems to be what everybody kind of wants to talk about these days.
And for good reason. I wrote back my first book back in 2020 was called The Age of AI, focusing on kind of artificial intelligence, how we think through the future of humanity, which is kind of a bold statement, but I do think that there are some kind of major worldview shifts that are taking place with AI, how it's shaping and informing us. But then also, how it was already way back when, before we were talking about in kind of popular conversation, already shaping really every aspect of our world. And I think we see that even more at kind of a fever pitch, almost kind of a hype cycle. We're at the very top of it, I think, where everyone is talking about AI, how it's shifting and changing everything.
And it's pushing along some really good conversations that I think really need to be had, especially among believers. to think about how these technologies are shaping our view of God. How it shaped our view of ourselves. I think that's one of the biggest questions we can ask today: was it mean to be human? But then also, how do we engage the world around us and do so with hope?
and myths a lot of the technological changes of our day. Nothing about quantum computing, I guess, coming your way then, huh? It's behind the scenes, I'll just say to that. Hey, you're listening to the Salvation Army's Words of Life. We're going to take a quick ad break, and we'll be right back.
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And they do it by connecting the faith ecosystem with the latest research, technology, and values-aligned AI. That's high-tech for a higher purpose. See the research yourself. Just text the word join to 46816. Again, that's join to 46816.
We looked back and when your series launched in twenty twenty two, that was in the summer of that year. And then November of that same year, Chat GPT came out. And that now, of course, every student is using ChatGPT to get their degrees. And that's a whole level of possible scary future doctors out there or something. But it is more of a household conversation.
I mean, I think even just in 2022, there were a lot of things that you were stating that Bernie wasn't aware of yet. And now all of this is just common knowledge, it seems like. Yeah. Yeah, you definitely see kind of a fever pitch, almost kind of a hype cycle, and that's what I like to remind my students. But even times when I'm just traveling and preaching and teaching.
It's really interesting. A lot of the questions I think we're asking today aren't all that new per se. We think of the novelty, all the changes, what technology is doing, and there are some new things and new opportunities and challenges before us. But I think with as with all technology, I think AI specifically We're asking a lot of those age-old questions. Specifically, who is God?
What does it mean to be human? We're just asking them in light of some of these new opportunities. It's encouraging to me that there are many more Christians kind of engaging in this space. You know, a few years ago, you could count a few of us on one or two hands. And now it seems like there are more and more Christians getting involved in the space, which is really encouraging.
And that really started from initially with my book and a statement of principles I worked on a number of years ago. We were trying to encourage the church to interact with the world as it is, not just the way we want it to be, and to prepare ourselves to engage some of those questions and to be part of the conversation as they're happening. Because it's interesting to me, no matter where you look. Whether it's in academia or whether it's in the workplace or in government, and even in our own homes, sometimes as families, we're asking some really, really important questions. About the role of technology in our lives and specifically what it's doing to us and how it's shaping and forming us as people.
That's what I wrote about in that Following Jesus book. But it's also something that I think is really prevalent, especially in the AI conversation as well. Just to slow down. I think in many ways we as a society, it's always more, better, faster, stronger. It's always efficiency and convenience at all cost.
But I think from a Christian worldview perspective, we need to slow down. At times, at least just to consider and ask questions: like, what is this? And where are we heading? And what's it doing to us? Rather than just always rushing headlong into innovation for innovation's sake and uncritically adopting, or for some listeners, uncritically rejecting these tools.
I think we need to have a critical lens to engage, not to just wholeheartedly adopt or reject, but actually to step in with hope. And especially step in with the fullness of the Christian worldview to address these really important questions and realizing the whole time none of this stuff catches the Lord off guard. which is deeply encouraging to me. It's not like we made something. He's like, I don't know what to do with this, or how do we think about No, he's God after all.
He's the maker, the creator of everything. And so he's given us certain principles to live by, even amidst changing circumstances. And I think that's kind of the place and the posture and kind of the demeanor that I hope. Listeners, but really Christians in general, really step into these conversations. There's some exciting things.
There's also some daunting things and kind of serious questions that we need to be asking right now. I love what you said about the need to kind of slow down and consider and ask the questions. Because I think of two thousand seven when the iPhone came out and how like immediately everybody who had the finances to buy an iPhone, we adopted that technology. And now, you know, here we are. There's barely anybody we know who isn't walking around with a phone in their pocket, social media.
I think of just that generation that came up with that technology without us really asking all those questions of like, what is this going to do to us as a society? And you're just really now kind of seeing the ramifications of that, just blindly accepting this new thing without slowing down to say, hey, this might change the world as we know it, you know.
So. I think this is kind of that next. I don't know, inflection point. AI is that next thing that, yeah, we should maybe pause here before we just like accept it into everyday life. When we think about a kind of Christian engagement and a host of political, social, ethical issues, but not less than technology.
is to slow down and ask some of those critical questions, to slow down to ask. What's really going on here? What's the tenants of the debate? Those types of things to slow down and ask some of those to cultivate wisdom. And virtue for engaging in an ever-shifting and ever-changing society.
And so that's one of the things I encourage with all technologies, but specifically when it comes to AI. A posture that I think is really helpful for Christians is that we don't just see these things as mere tools that we use. They are tools, we do use them, but they also are shaping our perspective of the world. And so, again, it's not like we're anti-technology. It's funny over the years, people reviewing and reflecting and engaging with my work.
Will say, oh, in this book, he's so negative of technology. And you're like, that's not really what I'm for. I'm not pessimistic with technology, but I'm also not just kind of this utopian kind of vision of everything's getting better and look at all the benefits, and we just embrace innovation for innovation's sake. The goal is to really cultivate that critical lens, not critical in the sense of tearing down, but just being thoughtful. and engaging these things.
These technologies are good gifts from the Lord. We can use these for the kingdom. We can use these to build the kingdom. But also, we'd be naive to think that they're not doing something to us and that the goal or the purpose of the technologies may not always align with that of our stated goals and purposes, especially in ministry. And I think that's going to take a little bit more of that kind of critical analysis and slowing down rather than just kind of headlong innovation for innovation's sake, or for many of us, maybe just kind of sticking our heads in the sand and act like it doesn't exist.
I don't think either of those are actually a proper Christian response. for how we engage and think through some of the challenges as well as the opportunities before us in this age of AI. We pray that you're enjoying and being blessed by this conversation. We're going to take one more ad break and we'll be right back. Did you know that Gen Z and millennials are leading the resurgence in church attendance?
That's right. New research out from Glue and Barna as part of the State of the Church Initiative shows that Gen Z and millennials are now attending church more regularly than older generations. This is a historic reversal in church trends. And GLU, spelled G-L-O-O, is at the center of all of this. They're the technology platform for the faith ecosystem, connecting you with the latest research, technology, and values-aligned AI that supports churches.
And ultimately, human flourishing. Glue is on a mission to serve those who serve: the pastors, leaders, publishers, and more in the faith ecosystem. That's high tech for a higher purpose. You can stay up to date with everything happening at Glue and across the entire fake ecosystem by texting JOIN to 46816. And when you text today, they'll send you the latest research from Glue and Barna about this historic church trend.
Again, that's the word join to 46816. I want to talk about this article that you wrote in May called You Are Not a Machine and AI is Not Truly Like You. But in that article, as well as your book that came out in twenty twenty, The Age of AI, In that book also, you talked about technology is not neutral. And when you're talking about what does it look like when we just jump in headfirst, and how could these technologies be shaping our worldview? I'll give you a perfect example of something that concerns me.
I had a friend who was telling me that the way they use ChatGPT is it's in their car and they will talk to it working through some kind of problem, whether it's a work problem or something like this. And it's feeding back information based on what they're saying. And you're trusting that that technology does not have any kind of agenda, that it is completely neutral, but who's to say it doesn't? And that it's not just little, I don't have a better word for it, than just like little microaggressions almost from this technology that is shaping you a little bit differently than the person you were before you had really kind of enveloped yourself so much in it. Yeah.
And it's not just the information that it's feeding back or the quote conversation. And I think we need to be really clear. That's why I wrote that article for NAE: to say. You're not a machine. One of the most ironic things about this age of AI is that we often have all these questions about AI and its powerful and the way it's, quote, thinking and the way it's processing information.
And it seems to take on or at least mimic and imitate certain human characteristics, or at least characteristics that we long have assumed it meant to be human, to be a thinking thing, or to having these kind of relational connections. But it's interesting when you think about these, they're machines. There's a difference, as one philosopher said, a difference between a subject and an object. We are subjects. It's I and thou and me and you, and we have names.
It's interesting, though, with these machines, is we often give them names, especially in robotics, we give them faces. We have conversations about AI agents. That's really popular in the tech space right now. These personas that the AI will take on that you can interact with. There's rise in many conversations about AI therapy kind of chat bots, not just for counseling and therapy situations, but especially even young people engaging in kind of relational quote connections with these machines.
And I think when we start to blur that line to say, Well, you're not a machine though. Like you, you're not like that. It may look, it may imitate it, it may reflect certain things, but there's a fundamental difference. I think that's really meaningful. When we get into this, because the ironic part is that we often humanize these machines, treating them as if they're like us.
Wondering about if they'll ever wake up one day, kind of that Hollywood thriller kind of movie plot about the robots waking up one day and taking over. We have all these dreams where we, in many ways, make these machines kind of like us, we humanize them. In the same respect, I would argue we're actually dehumanizing ourself.
So it's not simply. That the content and the information, but also what are these tools doing to us in the way we interact with other people or the value we see in other people? Or are we substituting and replacing rather than coming alongside and kind of augmenting our work? And those are kind of fine distinctions, but I think they really matter in these conversations because what is that doing to how we see one another? as human beings?
Do we see each other as just kind of a sum of their parts? Just the usefulness that they bring to our lives, or are we starting to see really that embodied community that God created us for? And at least those are some questions I think we need to be thinking through and addressing from a distinctly Christian perspective. The Salvation Army's mission, doing the most good, means helping people with material and spiritual needs. You become a part of this mission every time you give to the Salvation Army.
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