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September 13, 2019 9:26 am
One member is examining the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints from a biblical perspective view .1 Mormonism sponsored by Mormonism research ministry since 1979 Mormonism research ministry has been dedicated to equipping the body of Christ with answers regarding the Christian faith in a manner that expresses gentleness and respect.
And now, your host for today's viewpoint on Mormonism welcomed this addition the viewpoint on Mormonism. I'm your host, Bill McKeever, founder and director Mormonism research ministry with me today is Eric Johnson. My colleague at MRM we continue looking at an article that was in the August 2019 addition of & magazine article written by Terrence M. Vinson of the presidency of the 70 it was titled the essential role of revelation and as we been explaining throughout this week.
Many times Christians find themselves being frustrated because the latter-day St. rather than answer the evidential questions that are being handed to them. They often respond by the fact that they know what they believe is true and they tend to blame the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost on those truth claims and that can be very frustrating and so we know by this experience that revelation as is understood by members of the LDS church is very important to the member and so we been going through this article and I do think Eric that we have seen a lot of problem areas a lot of conclusions that Mr. Vincent has that I think can be questioned even deeper and yesterday we are talking about a quotation that he gave from Dell and Oaks, who serves as a first counselor in the first presidency, where he cited a lot of Bible verses and as you mentioned yesterday some of the uses of those Bible verses were a little bit questionable but today we want to go on because Mr. Vincent continues, citing Dell and Oaks in the same talk that he gave it comes under the subtitle the witness of the Holy Ghost Oaks says one of the greatest things about our heavenly father's plan for his children is that each of us can know the truth of that plan for ourselves that reveal knowledge does not come from books from scientific proof or from intellectual pondering. As with the apostle Peter, we can receive that knowledge directly from our heavenly father through the witness of the Holy Ghost stop either because he seems to be putting it within the context of merely knowing about heavenly father's plan for ourselves with this only work within that small capacity or wouldn't you think that if this premise is true that it would work in other areas as well and this is what I mean by this Dell and Oaks before he became a general authority in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, he served as the president of Brigham Young University and then he was called to be an apostle, but his background is in law. He held the position of the Supreme Court judge so Mr. Oakes is very familiar with the use of evidence is very familiar with this and one time I remember having a conversation with an LDS member who was an attorney and I know I probably offended him by asking this question, but I asked do you treat your vocation the way you treat your religion. In other words, if merely putting a question before the Holy Ghost quote," in getting an answer from the Holy Ghost with that seem to settle all matters. So if that's really how it operates, then why didn't Dell and Oaks in his courtroom merely say you know what prosecuting attorney defense attorney just sit down instead of providing evidence. Let's just pray about it though. I'm sure Dale and Oaks didn't do that he would be silly to do something like that. But what did he listen to all those many years in his courtroom. He listened to evidence any how to make a decision based on evidence and I'm sure that some of that evidence was based in what they call scientific proof such as DNA evidence. For instance, he had the listener that he had a way that kind of evidence. So when we as Christians expect that of our LDS counterparts.
Why do you think were so frustrated when they act as if evidence doesn't mean anything that you think Dell and Oaks would know better.
So if it works. In this capacity.
Why wouldn't it work in other capacities as well. If those capacities are important to us. I find it fascinating that he said Oaks says that reveal knowledge does not come from books from scientific proof or from intellectual pondering.
But when you take a look at what was just talked about in the previous paragraph he cited before those different verses from the Bible but he cites from around nine, 10, four and five. He says the book of Mormon teaches that God will manifest the truth of spiritual things onto us by the power of the holy ghost well then, if you can't get reveal knowledge from books than that doesn't seem to make any sense.
How did you ever get the idea that you could pray about the book of Mormon or about the religion of Mormonism to determine if it was true. Why do you even have to cite for Moron I 10, four and five because it seems like it should just come naturally without having anything in a book tell you to do that. I think you raise a good point. Sometimes when we read these articles in Mormon publications. They tend to make it so simplistic that discernment is easy to come by. It really isn't in many cases, of course, in order to properly discern truth from error, you have to have a basis from which you make that determination. I think that gets back to what we been talking about this entire week.
If the basis for your truth claim is not in the Bible will then obviously you can come up with all sorts of things that you believe to be true, and I think he talks about that in the What is he say there Oaks says when we know spiritual truths by spiritual means we can be just as sure of that knowledge.
As scholars and scientists are of the different kinds of knowledge they have acquired by scientific methods. That sentence really doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Merely because just because a person may be assured that what they believe is true whether it's in the spiritual sense, or in this case a secular sense that something that has been acquired by scientific methods.
Both parties can be just as sure of their position, but does that mean that both parties are correct. You see that's the problem I'm having with this. I don't really care how sure someone might be about what they believe they could be very sincerely wrong on what they are so assured of just the same as the person who claims science supports his position. How many times do we have to say it. The science of the 19th century is often not the signs of the 20th century or even the 21st century and the science of the 21st century may in many areas not be the signs of the 22nd century. So how can you make sure in your heart that what you're believing right now is absolutely correct. It's very difficult it's very difficult.
This is why we have a lot of controversy in this fallen world that we live in. So I really don't care how much assurance, an individual may have. And I wouldn't expect somebody to believe what I believe just because I have an assurance of what I believe the question is is is the assurance I have based in what is true. That's what's important.
And again I would say that the premise the foundation of what Mormons claim to be true. In my opinion is faulty because a lot of these positions at Latter Day Saints hold do not concur with what God has already revealed in the New Testament Noah Mormon may argue that that New Testament passage is incorrect and I would say okay let's talk about that then show me your evidence as to why you think that verse is incorrect. Don't tell me it's incorrect. Just because you have some profit in your church who said it was incorrect.
That's not going to be convincing, especially not to me and I hope it wouldn't be convincing to most professing Christians and may Latter Day Saints with her in a day without is then take you to other scriptures because they do have four standard works, and so they can't take you to the doctrine and covenants and show you how God has a body of flesh and bone, but it contradicts the Bible.
So it's it's interesting how the Bible stands for what it is you can write another scripture that contradicts it.
But both of them cannot be true, but in your analogy, though Eric wouldn't you agree that citing the doctrine and covenants to us should not be convincing because we are not convinced that the doctrine and covenants has its genesis in God himself. I believe the doctrine and covenants outside of the verses they plagiarize from the Bible is merely the ideas of Joseph Smith since most of the doctrine and covenants or revelations that he allegedly received that puts a big? Audit if what he is saying, does not conform to what God is already had to say. As I mentioned earlier in the week, then either God has a memory problem probably shouldn't be believed or worship to begin with, or Joseph Smith as a fallen, sinful human being was mischaracterizing what God has said and given us the impression that what he's telling us has to be true. Vincent goes on and writes this in the article on page 50.
He says although spiritual knowledge and intellectual knowledge are different. Both are important to comprehend the things of the world.
We must be intellectually enlightened to know and understand the things of God. We must be spiritually enlightened revelation is an essential factor in knowing the things of God the things of God cannot be learned solely by study and reason but will you and I would not say the things of God can be learned solely by study and reason.
We do believe in faith but then the study and reason that we do will lead us to a conclusion that will be in conformity with the facts and the evidence that is available to us. And again it goes back to our foundation of what we believe to be true is New Testament when it comes to our Christian faith. That's where we run into complications when we are talking with our Mormon friends because there are some Mormons who believe that a lot of the verses that we like to use in a given situation are not to be trusted. When you have the church telling them that they believe the Bible only as far as it is translated correctly. Many Latter Day Saints don't take it any deeper than what it says and they automatically write off any verse that you might bring up and they don't want to be involved in what they call a Bible – yet. As Christians we feel the Bible is very important.
Let's look at what these verses have to say, let's understand what the writer meant when he wrote certain things. There's nothing wrong with that. I usually find little Mormon brings up the old Bible bash argument.
It's when they been on the ropes so many times and they can't answer the questions in a reasonable way that they have to get rid of those verses that you been bringing up as if they really don't have that great of importance when it comes to the discussion that you're involved in. He goes on in the next paragraph and he cites from doctrine and covenants section 9 versus seven through nine. When we just read verse eight, real quickly beer bill it says but behold I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind. Then you must asked me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you. Therefore you shall feel that it is right that is the crux of Mormonism.
You have to feel it is right and as we been talking about this past week.
If it's not conformity with the evidence of what the Bible teaches, then I don't care how you feel. Your feelings can be deceiving you. Are we to assume that a lot of the people who believe false teachings that are mentioned in the New Testament really didn't feel that what they believed was right. A lot of people believe what they feel is right. The question is, is it really right. That's the whole argument were merely asking are your presuppositions correct and is it correct to blame the Holy Spirit if they in fact are not correct is what you been told believe based in truth, or did that truth claim come from another source besides what you think is the Holy Spirit. Thank you for listening you would like more information regarding his research ministry. We encourage you to visit our website www.mrm.org you can request a free newsletter Mormonism research. We hope you will join us again as we look at another viewpoint is