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Prophecy of War Part 2

Viewpoint on Mormonism / Bill McKeever
The Truth Network Radio
September 6, 2021 9:08 pm

Prophecy of War Part 2

Viewpoint on Mormonism / Bill McKeever

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September 6, 2021 9:08 pm

An article by Seventy Matthew S. Holland in the August 2021 Liahona magazine (“Prophecy of War”) and how Joseph Smith correctly predicted the Civil War. Bill and Eric go through the article and critique some of the assertions made by Holland.


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Holland, and what Mr. Holland is going to do is try to give us the impression that the things that Joseph Smith said in section 87 of the doctrine and covenants came to pass, thus proving that Joseph Smith had prophetical insight and therefore shows that he was in fact a prophet of God.

Now we probably should've gone through section 87 yesterday but since we didn't let's recap and let's go through section 87 in the doctrine and covenants, and before I do, I just want to reference a pull quote that's found on page 28 underneath Matthew as Holland's picture it says in Revelation.

Joseph foresaw the American Civil War and other calamities. I want to point out the word revelation and that's what I meant to read right now.

This is supposedly a revelation given to Joseph Smith and it supposedly has to do with the Civil War, verses one through three says this in section 87 verily thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass. Beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls, and the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place for behold, the southern states shall be divided against the northern states and the southern states will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations in order to defend themselves against other nations, and then war shall be poured out upon all nations, and so yesterday when we were going through some of Mr. Holland's bullet points. He has his bullet point number one that this conflict would proceed war being poured out upon all nations. Verse three lesson 50 years from the end of the Civil War.

The first of two world wars began.

Let's be a little bit precise here, even though they are called world wars they did not really involve every single nation in the fighting of those two wars so technically it didn't pour out upon all nations.

It may have had some effect. Of course, on other nations. As far as trade is concerned, but are we really going to connect the first and second world war, with the rebellion in South Carolina and that was the point I was making yesterday and it gets even worse than that.

You'll recall if you listened yesterday.

I also cited from Mormon apostle Joseph L. Wirthlin, who in 1958. Not only talks about the Civil War that then he gives a long list of a number of conflicts between nations going clear up to the Korean War and then in brackets. The editor of this manual and I might mention this is found in the doctrine and covenants student manual religion 324 and 325 on page 194 in brackets. It lists the war in Angola Six-Day War Yom Kippur war and the Persian Gulf War Bill, do you know of any historian who might try to link with just World War I into or as Wirthlin has pointed out all these other wars with the Civil War and that was the point I was making yesterday. No, I think it's the height of ridiculousness and as Matthew Holland is doing on page 29 of his article when he says less than 50 years from the end of the Civil War. The first of two world wars began again. I think he's repeating something that is just silly. I guess we could call that the traditional post hoc ergo proctor Hawk logical fallacy. In other words, the reason why we have the first and second world wars because of the Civil War in the United States. That's nonsense, but you have to understand folks coming from a latter-day St. mindset you're looking for anything that can hopefully convince you that Joseph Smith had some prophetic insight. But even this idea of an eventual Civil War between northern and southern states was not something that was unknown at the time Joseph Smith gives this alleged prophecy. On December 25, 1832.

As I mentioned yesterday, four days before he gives this prophecy.

A local newspaper, the Painesville telegraph included an article that reference this idea that there could be eventual Civil War it was called the crisis.

Painesville telegraph ran that article and if you kept up with current events at that time that there could be an eventual Civil War. If the tension between the northern states religiously. Washington DC was not settled between it and the southern states. Holland continues on with bullet point number two and he writes all these conflicts would eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls reference to verse one.

To this day more American lives were lost in the Civil War than all other US wars combined, US Pres. Abraham Lincoln himself noted in his second inaugural address quote. Neither party expected for the war, the magnitude or the duration which it has already attained."

And however bloodied. The Civil War was its death toll pales in comparison to that of the two world wars that followed were the combined estimates of casualties range anywhere from 70 million 260 million lives. This is probably one point that I hear latter-day Saints bring up and that is no one really seemed to expect that if Civil War was to take place that it would be a long lasting war and to prove his point, Holland cites this statement from as you said Eric from Pres. Abraham Lincoln's second inaugural address, but if war happened and after the first land battle that would've been the battle of Bull Run or the battle of first Manassas, depending on what side of the fence you are on at that time because the self cold certain battles differently than the North did. But let's say it ended with first Bull Run in Manassas. We know that about 3500 men were either killed or wounded at the battle of first Manassas on both sides combined even if it ended there. Would you think that the Mormons and wanting to make Joseph Smith a prophet who has this revelatory ability.

They would say even 3500 would probably fulfill that prediction of death and misery of many souls. I have no doubt that they probably would've looked at it, even 3500 as fulfilling that now we know that the Civil War went on for four grueling years and depending on which statistic you read were looking at probably around 600,000 deaths, but also many of those who were part of that number died of sickness not from bullets, not from cannon fire. They died from sickness which is not unusual in a war like that and I know they want to make it sound like will see who would've ever imagined it was going to be that high will remember Joseph Smith doesn't give us a number. He just says the death and misery of many souls, many is a word that can have a broad range of definition, it could be as low let's say as the first Battle of Bull Run 3500 dead and wounded so you can easily try to apply this to even something as the battle of first Bull Run. That's the tricky thing when you're trying to take a look at something that just as Miss said that he's prophesying, you can turn words into whatever you want them to mean in so many souls, what is that mean in fact at the beginning of verse one it says verily thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass Bill with us shortly come to pass them in this is 28 years later before the Civil War begins.

I don't know if shortly could be 28 years and then tack on the decades that separate the American Civil War with the first world war that begins in 1914.

Then of course we got World War II and depending on which nations you're talking about were involved in World War II that goes to the 1930s. We didn't get involved course until 1941, but England, France, they were involved in the war with Germany even before that.

But there's all these years separating them, and this is why I think it's not a very good argument to try to connect the first and second world war, or even these other wars that Joseph Wirthlin tries to throw in there.

Nobody who is a qualified historian is going to connect those conflicts with South Carolina. Why is Matthew Holland doing this and I want to go back to an earlier premise Latter Day Saints need to believe that Joseph Smith was in fact a true prophet of God they must be honest. Modern LDS presidents don't normally give predictions. I mean, Joseph Smith gave a few but we don't see modern Mormon leaders doing this they seem to be pretty smart and staying away from that quagmire. Can you imagine if let's say Thomas Monson or Gordon Hinckley, Russell and Nelson were to predict future events and it doesn't happen the way they say. Certainly they're going to bring down a lot of criticism on them and even Russell M.

Nelson proclaimed that he is having prophetic insights during the night where he has to get up and write things down to see actually written down that is so profound. If you were to ask most Latter Day Saints name one thing let's say that Russell M. Nelson has done since he became president would be the one thing most people would probably bring up it would probably be don't call the church. The Mormon church. Don't call yourselves Mormons. Is that really a prophetic prediction and one thing that I think about with the first Gen. conference.

After COBIT started when they did not invite anybody in and to the conference center was that Russell M.

Nelson said he was surprised by the events that took place in speaking to nobody.

He was surprised he seemed to show shock that we had gone through what we had gone through. Up until that time when that general conference was held in that private auditorium. So if he was really the prophet of God. Couldn't someone else argue will something is huge as this pandemic and how it's affected so many people.

Why was it that Russell Nelson didn't seem to know about this now. I guess they could argue will do you really expect God to inform our profits of every little thing.

Well, this is a little thing, though, that's the problem. But when did you ever hear of any of these leaders predict something ahead of time. I mean look at the stock market crash of 1929.

Did you hear any Mormon prophet or apostle predicting that happening tomorrow.

She'll were going to continue looking at this article. Prophecy of war prescription for peace, written by more than 70 Matthew S. Holland.

Thank you for listening.

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