This broadcaster has 662 podcast archives available on-demand.
Keep up-to-date with this broadcaster on social media and their website.
June 20, 2020 10:44 am
.1 examines the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints from a biblical perspective viewpoint when Mormonism is sponsored by Mormonism research ministry since 1979 Mormonism research ministry has been dedicated to equipping the body of Christ with answers regarding the Christian faith in a manner that expresses gentleness and respect. And now, your host for today's viewpoint on Mormonism. What does the Mormon Lucifer have that the Mormon Jesus doesn't have welcome to this edition of viewpoint on Mormonism. I'm your host, Bill McKeever, founder and director of Mormonism research ministry plan with me today is Eric Johnson. My colleague at MRM we continue looking at the book Jesus the Christ written by James Talmage, Mormon apostle, he was actually commissioned by the first presidency of the church to write this book and it is become very famous book, so much so that it was given away twice as Christmas gifts to various church employees, and other general authorities by the first presidency of the church between the years 1981 and 2017. Today we want to look at what James Talmage had to say about the Council in heaven and though he doesn't say anything really, that's all that different from what other Mormon leaders have said there's an interesting connection that we want to make in today's show, starting with page 32.
What does James Talmage say regarding this counsel in heaven. Eric and now becomes our purpose to inquire as to the position and status of Jesus the Christ in the anti-mortal world. From the period of the solemn counsel in heaven, in which he was chosen to be the future. Savior and Redeemer of mankind to the time at which he was born in the flesh. Now this counsel in heaven that's being referred to.
This is what starts all the controversy leading to what Mormons call the war in heaven. What happens is Jesus. As you just heard Eric say was chosen to be the future. Savior and Redeemer of mankind his brother in Mormonism's brother Lucifer does not like this choice and so he is going to rebel against his father in heaven, the one Mormons call Elohim as well as his brother, Jehovah, the pre-incarnate Christ, he is able to convince one third of God's spirit children to join him in this rebellion. He and those spirit children lose this battle and are eventually cast out of heaven to become the devil and his demons. The devil and his demons are destined for outer darkness.
Come judgment day.
So when you hear a latter-day St. pride himself in the fact that he is a literal child of God and that God would never punish his children with such an awful judgment has been tested outer darkness you might want to remind him that all of those going to outer darkness are considered the children of God according to Mormonism so they really wouldn't be exempt for that reason alone, but bear in mind, Lucifer, and those spirit children that become the demons are cast out for what appears to be what infraction a serious one, yes, but one infraction that we know of, but this leads us to another statement by Talmage. If we go 100 pages past the one that Eric just read on page 32 we have this citation on page 132 of Jesus the Christ. He wrote Christ, the creator of heaven and earth tabernacle as he then was in mortal flesh may not have remembered his preexistence, state, nor the part he had taken in the great Council of the gods, while Satan and on embodied spirit he that disinherited the rebellious and rejected son seeking to tempt the been through whom the world was created by promising him part of what was holy, his still may have had, as indeed he may yet have a remembrance of those primeval seems now the question I asked at the beginning of this show. What does the Mormon Lucifer have that the Mormon Jesus doesn't have well here we find the answer. He may still have a remembrance of those primeval scenes or what took place in that spirit world.
Prior to our mortality and what Mormons called the mortal probation you see, we don't remember anything that took place before our birth, our memory was wiped clean of anything that took place while we were still in the presence of heavenly father and heavenly mother. Our heavenly parents, and I guess I should say that if you lived in the 19th century, it would be heavenly father and heavenly mothers because Mormon leaders were teaching during the 19th century, when polygamy was going very strong. That heavenly father was in fact a practicing polygamist. Now I know they don't emphasize that nowadays. But that's how it was described during the 19th century when we left the preexistence to come into our mortality to take on a body of flesh and bones as we have now all our memory of that preexistence was wiped away. According to Talmage, that's not true with Lucifer. Now, if it's not true with Lucifer, Eric, I'm wondering is that not also true with all the demons demons have somewhat of a remembrance of what took place when they were cast out of the presence of heavenly father, heavenly mother and all the rest of us children of God as understood by Latter Day Saints. It seems, according to Talmage that Lucifer had an advantage of knowing what that was all about.
In the preexistence where Jesus would not have known about this and he says still may have had as he may have a remembrance of those primeval scenes in the tempting, he seeking to tempt this being you go to Matthew chapter 4 and that is where Jesus tested in the wilderness, and you can read through the first seven or eight verses to understand three different temptations. I'm not seeing where there is an advantage that the devil has that Satan has when he's doing the tempting and even if he didn't have any kind of advantage. Jesus headed them off at the pass by quoting Scripture. So Jesus had the upper hand and was able to refute what Lucifer had and it says in verse 11. The devil left him, and the angels came and attended him. So even if he had this advantage that it hears that Talmage is saying he had. He certainly was not able to get Jesus to do what Lucifer wanted. Okay will switch gears. Now let's go to another topic that we find in Jesus the Christ, and that has to do with the creeds. Now we know from the 1838 account of the first vision that when Joseph Smith was visited by God the father in Jesus.
He was told by these personages that all the churches were wrong there creeds are an abomination and their professors are corrupt, what does Talmage have to say about in particular, the Athanasian Creed found on page 756 of Jesus the Christ. The creed of Athanasius at the Council of nice.
And it says nice not nice ESL not quite sure can vote by the Emperor Constantine. 325 A.D. a formal statement of belief concerning the Godhead was adopted later, a modification was issued known as the creed of Athanasius and though the authorship is question the creed has a place in the ritual of some of the Protestant churches no more conclusive evidence that men had ceased to know God need be adduced than the Athanasian Creed, why he only credits Protestant churches because the Athanasian Creed is held by all the traditions of Christianity as far as I know why he singles out the Protestant churches is unknown to me. I wonder how many Latter Day Saints have ever even read the Athanasian Creed and if you haven't I would encourage you to do so. In fact, even if you're professing Christian and even if you're not a latter-day St. I would encourage you to also find the Athanasian Creed and just read through it. It's not very long, but I remember having a conversation one time with a new convert out of Mormonism who was struggling with the idea of the Trinity and I remember saying to him will let's walk through just the first couple of sentences of the Athanasian Creed to see if that perhaps may help you and I did that with him and it was amazing how he kind of just lit up said will that makes perfect sense. I never understood it quite like that. See this is why reading. These creeds can be actually beneficial to us in understanding the doctrinal positions at the early church had contrary to Mormon myth. The creeds were not invented. The creeds were used with Scripture to explain Scripture. They were there to invent new doctrine, as many Mormons have been led to believe.
Let's go to another topic.
Let's talk about what he had to say regarding the Lamanites because we were talking about the three neophytes in the book of Mormon. Then he goes on to talk about the Lamanites, and he uses some real derogatory language. In his book and you might say well okay will that was the prejudice of his day. Remember, this book was written in 1915, but it's still in the book today and given twice as a Christmas gift by the first presidency will what did he have to say about the Lamanites on page 49.
He wrote the neophytes suffered extinction about 400 A.D., but the Lamanites lived on in their degraded course and are today X stance upon the land as the American Indians so the American Indians that we have today as he says, are those who were in their degraded course I don't think that would be very politically correct. Do you not yet. He doesn't stop there. He goes on to say something else about this group of people on page 742 of Jesus the Christ. For many decades. The neophytes retreated before their aggressive foes making their way northeastward through what is now the United States about 400 A.D. the last great battle was fought near the hill Camorra and the neophyte nation became extinct.
The degenerate remnant of Lehi's posterity, the Lamanites or American Indians have continued until this day.
The degenerate remnant of Lehi's posterity, the Lamanites or American Indians have continued until this day.
Again, not a very politically correct statement to be sure, but here's what's fascinating about all this when he says for many decades. The neophytes retreated before their aggressive foes making their way northward through what is now the United States.
If you're going to believe the Mormon story you have to start according to some of their scholars in Central America and then somehow they move up north. Clear up to New York, a distance of thousands of miles they are allegedly being chased by these aggressive foes that he mentions here but they get into what's now known as the United States, according to Talmage about 400 A.D. the last great battle was fought near the hill Camorra in the neophyte nation became extinct. It would appear that Talmage didn't hold to the two Camorra theory in the reason I mention that not to go into a lot of detail on this, but there are some real difficulties that Mormon scholars have when it comes to the book of Mormon lands.
It seems like in the beginning, the book of Mormon lands were clearly up in the New York area, but then they tended to start down in Central America and some scholars say that it had to remain in the Central America area 11 scholar.
If I remember correctly said something about the radius of where these book of Mormon lands were couldn't of been over 300 miles will now you have this group from Central America moving north up into New York and this is where the last great battle was fought so you have millions of people were to assume moving northward to fight this great battle. If you want to believe the book of Mormon and the way James Talmage explains that story that would be a truth claim that you're supposed to adhere to.
Today, thank you for listening. If you would like more information and research ministry. We encourage you to visit our website at www.mrm.org you can request a free newsletter.
Mormonism researched this again, as we look at another viewpoint is