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Awaiting Jesus Christ or the Antichrist?

Understanding The Times / Jan Markell
The Truth Network Radio
June 15, 2019 8:00 am

Awaiting Jesus Christ or the Antichrist?

Understanding The Times / Jan Markell

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June 15, 2019 8:00 am

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One man says he's not afraid of the Antichrist.

Neither are we because we'll never meet him. You're in a church tonight that is studying Bible prophecy and yet it's a doctrine that is being ignored by many people who claim to know Jesus and go to church all around the world and they're not studying this anymore. This should add to you boldness and power in your witnessing and in your faith. Today Jan Markell continues to discuss various aspects of the rapture of the church with Dr. David Reagan. We believe the pre-tribulation rapture of the church is one of the most important and maligned doctrines within the church today. We believe Satan wants to rob you of your future and make you think you are going to face the Antichrist.

And the Bible is clear that the church escapes that wrath. Today Jan talks to David Reagan about these and related issues. We carry Dr. Reagan's newest book, The Rapture, Fact or Fiction. Even if our seminaries and pulpits are quiet on these issues, understanding the Times Radio and Olive Tree Ministries will keep it in the forefront.

Now here are Jan Markell and Dr. David Reagan. Well, I'm saying that the rapture could happen between that fat line and the skinny line. But where are we?

I don't know. I think we're really close to that big line. I think we're really close. We are seeing amazing things taking place in the world around us. The world's gone nuts and yet everything's coming together just exactly as God promised. Welcome to the program. You know you hear me say that all the time. Things aren't falling apart.

They're falling into place. Let me just introduce today's program here and give me just a moment to do so if you don't mind because I recently spoke at a prophecy conference with significant attendants, happened to be in Canada, and right before Pastor Jack Hibbs, and that's whose voice you just heard, right before he got up to speak about the rapture, this is about a month ago now, a conference attendee stood up and shouted to over 2,000 people that there was no rapture in the Bible. And he disrupted the event for several minutes before being literally hauled away by security.

And he hollered all the way to the door as he was escorted out of the building. There was no rapture. There is no rapture. And I was reminded that there is a vicious attack on our blessed hope. So we talked about that for the first half of our programming last weekend. And I'm continuing the topic this week with Dr. David Reagan of Lamb Lion Ministry.

And why two weeks? And you know I very often will do a two-week series on something very important. And frankly, I could not survive without the hope of our Lord's return at any minute, perhaps today. And technically, the rapture is a pretty signless event, but there are many signs predicted for last generations, such as the decline of the church, increased apostasy, the rebirth of Israel, all the 2 Timothy 3 signs, and a myriad of signs for the tribulation and second coming.

But they are casting a shadow on our generation. Thus, my conclusion is that Jesus is coming in the clouds to take his church home, quite frankly, at any moment. And that is why I'm willing to spend two weeks talking about it and also carry a new book by Dr. David Reagan, The Rapture, Fact or Fiction. Before I bring David Reagan on, let me just read two paragraphs about what Terry James says about the book. Terry is co-editor of the Rapture Ready website along with Todd Strandberg.

And Terry writes this. He says, the topic of the rapture is presently under extreme persecution, if I may use that term to express the assaults being made on a biblical doctrine. Terry says, I and others who teach the pre-trib rapture are frequently inundated with invectives that accuse us of leading people to fail to recognize the Antichrist when he comes on the scene.

Terry James says our antagonists use every scriptural gymnastic imaginable to try to obscure the fact that the Bible plainly teaches the pre-tribulation call to the church by Jesus Christ. One more paragraph, Terry James goes on to say, this is why I say Dr. Reagan's book, and that's the book we're talking about here, is simply the best book because it presents so simply, i.e. the writer's style and language in describing this most glorious event in the Christian's future and seems to indicate that he has at his fingertips some sort of purification filter. His presentation makes sparklingly pure.

The scriptural spiritual water, the doctrine of rapture, thus is made crystal clear for the reader. And then Terry James concludes, there is no fluff in Dr. David Reagan's book, just a marvelously plain explanation of all one ever needs to know about that twinkling of an eye moment. So, Dr. Dave Reagan, welcome back to Understanding the Times Radio. Well, thank you, Jan.

It's always a joy to be with you. Wow, Terry James really set a mouthful there. Oh, he said a lot more.

It was all glowing, I'll tell you that. Well, one of the things that he emphasized was the purpose of the whole book. I was going through my library here one day, and I noticed that they fell into two categories.

Either they were highly theological, like a very fine one that was published recently by Ed Hindson and Mark Hitchcock, but very theological that the average person could not understand. And the others were very, very detailed and understandable, but so detailed, running three, four hundred pages, that you could hardly see the trees for the forest. And I thought, why can't I just put together a simple book that answers the questions, most frequently asked questions, and also deals with the most frequently made objections. Short, sweet, to the point.

That's what I tried to do. And you've done that in roughly a hundred pages. So you've done it to the point, and like you have said, and I've heard you say it, Satan is so opposed to this glorious hope, because he doesn't want us to be people of hope. He wants us to be people of despair, fear, gloom, and doom. Yes, as our society falls apart and falls into a pit of immorality and violence, and the whole world seems to be descending into that pit, he wants us to be living in utter despair and fear. And the pre-Tribulation rapture gives great hope, so he doesn't want that. Right, but there are some, let's be honest here, there are premillennial folks out there who basically believe, as we do, with this one exception, and that is they do not like the pre-Trib rapture. They believe in a post-mid-Trib or pre-wrath, whatever, and maybe they'll come up with some new ones here eventually.

But when they attack, and when they contend, they contend pretty contentiously. And I know you've noticed that as well. I think what's puzzling people is how did it happen that both the seminaries, and then as a result the seminaries dropping the topic that we're talking about, of course the pulpits have dropped it, and then Pastor Tom Hughes, he's a Calvary Chapel of 412 Church San Jacinto, wrote a wonderful article.

I know you're very well aware of it. He came up with a bunch of reasons why. Number one is referring to seminaries and pastors. They don't understand it. Two, they fear offending members. Three, they are concerned about scaring people. Four, they fear losing the tithes if they talk about the end time events. In other words, if we have a 20-year building program, maybe we shouldn't talk about the Lord's coming tomorrow. And this isn't all churches.

Please don't hear me say that. And number five, they are afraid, and this is legit, they are afraid of being identified with the loony fringe such as Harold Camping. They don't want to go there because Camping and Weizenhunt and others have so damaged this topic.

That's right. I would say amen to every one of those points. And it's very sad because the pulpit today across America is very silent about the return of Jesus, and yet all the signs of the times have come together as never before and are shouting as loud as they can that Jesus is coming soon. And not only that, and let's go back to seminaries and pulpits, if Peter and Paul and John and Jesus can talk about the topic. And let's focus in on the Rapture here. If all of those biblical figures can talk about the Rapture, surely our pulpits could talk about it at least now and then. Amen.

I agree 100 percent. You know, it's interesting that the number one argument that I run across all the time against the Rapture is it's too new to be true. And it's interesting that when Martin Luther started the Reformation by arguing that salvation is by grace through faith and not by works, the Vatican challenged him and he went to the meeting at the Diet of Worms. And the Vatican representative, his number one argument was, your statement that salvation is by grace through faith is too new to be true. No pope has taught it for 1,200 years.

It has to be false because it's too new to be true. And he also said none of the popes and other church fathers taught it. And Martin Luther said, well, that's interesting because Jesus did and so did Peter, Paul, and John.

Yeah, exactly. And some early church fathers did too, David. Well, they certainly taught immanency.

They taught immanency any moment. I'm going back here just for a minute. I don't want to quite leave this attack on the Rapture.

I've recently got a hold of Dr. Michael Brown's new book. It's called Not Afraid of the Antichrist, Why We Don't Believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Now, here's why I bring it up. I bring it up because he's got a couple hundred pages here and I'm going to try to say this respectfully. It's same old, same old.

It's John Darby. Of course, we have to face persecution. I don't think he sees a distinction between the Second Coming and the Rapture, which is so important that we distinguish between the two. My only point is, can they not come up with something new? I say they can't.

No, they can't. I have not read his book. I've read the essay he wrote about the book. In the essay, the only thing he emphasized, other than it all started with John Darby in 1830 and therefore could not be biblical, his other argument was basically that people who believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture are just sitting there waiting for the Lord to come and have no concern about the deterioration of American society or the problems in our society like abortion and so forth. And that, of course, is absolutely ridiculous when you consider that Tim LaHaye, who was the foremost promoter of the Pre-Trib Rapture, was up to his ears in all kinds of political organizations that were designed to come against abortion, same-sex marriage, and every other horrible thing going on in our society.

Yeah, good point. Just the very title of Michael Brown's book, Not Afraid of the Antichrist. As if you and I are. As if you and I are. You and I don't give it a nanosecond worth of thought. Why should we? I'm not living looking for the Antichrist. No, we're looking for Jesus Christ.

And I wish these folks could get that in their minds. Let me just play a short clip to back up a little bit what we're saying. It happens to be Pastor J.D. Farag, a man I'm very, very close to and appreciate his eschatology outreach on YouTube every week.

Let me just play this clip. And then, David, I want to come back and comment with you. See, if Jesus coming for his church isn't imminent, then there's no hurry.

And there's certainly no worry. If you don't believe that, just try bringing up a Pre-Tribulation Rapture and that you're dogmatic about it and bring it up and try to engage in a conversation with a member of a modern day Laodicean church and watch what happens. There's a satanic component to it. I believe that this is why even mentioning a Pre-Tribulation Rapture causes so much hostility and so much controversy.

It comes packaged with a satanic divisiveness within Christendom. And Satan, if he can get us on the rapture doctrine, he's got us. He's neutered us.

He's rendered us impotent. Because now there's no urgency. There's no, if you will, now in our Christianity. Because see, now there's something else that needs to happen before my Jesus can return for his bride.

And I'll tell you straight up, don't be messing with or delaying the coming of my Jesus. Because I want to go home. This is not my home. And this is not your home.

We are renting here. We are aliens here. We are nomads here. Probably a better word than aliens. Aliens is a weird word, a King James word. We are foreigners here. This is not our final destination. Satan has succeeded in dividing the body of Christ so much so that the church today has become focused on who the Antichrist is instead of who Jesus Christ is. If you just join me, you're listening to Understanding the Times Radio.

Jan Markell here. I have on the line from Dallas, Dr. Dave Reagan, because we're carrying his newest book, The Rapture, Fact or Fiction. You can find it in my store. You can read it in two, three hours, folks. And it's put very simply all the issues concerning the rapture, particularly if someone is kind of new and they just don't know what to think about this topic.

Maybe it's too complex and too confusing to them. This is perfect for you. Give my office a call anytime. You'll find it in print and e-newsletters that we carry.

You can sign up for those at I've got Dr. Reagan on the phone for the entire program talking about the rapture. Is it fact or fiction? Dr. Dave Reagan, I have said, and I even said it at your conference almost exactly a year ago, part of the attack is attack on dispensationalism itself. And you talk a little bit about the dark history of Amillennialism. You've already referenced the Catholic Church and how that plays into some of this and some of what the early Christian leaders believed. Why don't you reference that for a moment or so, because I think that the history here needs to be understood a little bit better. Yes, all of the early church fathers, almost without exception, were pre-tribulational in viewpoint.

There were some exceptions, but not many. What happened was, in about 400 AD, Saint Augustine wrote a book called The City of God, which became the basis for much of modern-day Catholic doctrine. In that book, he developed a new eschatology, and it was called Amillennialism. And basically what it just simply said was that we're in the millennium now, and we started at the cross, and it's going to continue until Jesus comes back. At that time, I think he thought that would be in a thousand years, and then the Lord would come back, but that didn't happen. But what he did was spiritualize all of end-time prophecy and say that it did not mean what it said.

It meant what he said. And so he spiritualized all of it. The church jumped on that immediately, because basically what it said was, God has washed His hands of the Jewish people, and because of that, He is giving all their blessings to the church. So the church is really the kingdom, and not a future kingdom for the Jews, as the Bible promises. But the church is the kingdom, and therefore the church grabbed that immediately, said, yes, we are the kingdom of God on earth, and the pope is his representative, and all nations on planet earth should submit themselves to the pope.

So that became the number one end-time doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. And for the next 1,200 years, if you wrote anything contrary to that, you were burned at the stake, you were burned with whatever you wrote. So during that time, people had no opportunity really to present any other viewpoint, and there would be very rarely any other viewpoint presented, because only people who really knew what the scriptures said were the priests, because no one had Bibles. Bibles had to be done by hand, so people didn't have Bibles, and most people in the Middle Ages couldn't read or write anyway. This is one of many reasons why the development of the rapture concept took a long time, is because you didn't have people reading the Bible and studying the Bible on their own. They just had to believe whatever the Roman Catholic Church said.

But once the invention of the printing press occurred and made Bible printing much cheaper, and once the Bible was translated into common languages like English and German, then the common man in the late 1600s, early 1700s, began to get copies of the Bible and read it and say, hey, the Bible says this, the church says that, there's something wrong somewhere here. And as they began to focus on eschatology, they began to see that everything had been spiritualized, and the first coming prophecies meant what they said, therefore the second coming prophecies must mean what they say. So the premillennial viewpoint, which is based upon what the scriptures say, that viewpoint came back in in the 1700s, and then people began to notice that there was a difference in the rapture and the second coming, and they started talking about the two as separate events. So by the time of Darby in the early 1800s, this was a very common idea that the rapture was something separate and apart from the second coming. It just didn't fall into Darby's lap in 1830.

It was something kicked around for almost three centuries, and this has been proved beyond a shadow of a doubt by a new book by William Watson. He is an English researcher in English literature, and he has researched over 350 books, he said, most of which have probably not been read in 200 years, and he found all kinds of references to a rapture separate from the second coming. I think it's important to point out the serious distinctions between the rapture and the second coming if you'd like to take a few minutes. And let me just say again in this book by Michael Brown, I'm quite sure he doesn't see a rapture, he sees a second coming, but then he builds a whole book on attacking those of us who believe in our blessed hope, which refers to in book of Titus. But why don't you take a minute or two to talk about why it's so important to see the difference?

The difference is pretty obvious. Anybody listening, go over to 1 Thessalonians 4 and start reading there in about verse 13 and read the story of the rapture, and then go over to Revelation 19 and read the story of the second coming. Those are the only two lengthy passages in the New Testament that describe the Lord's return in detail.

Here's the problem, they have nothing in common except they both focus upon Jesus. In 1 Thessalonians 4 Jesus appears in the heavens. In Revelation 19 he returns to earth. In 1 Thessalonians 4 he returns back to heaven, but he doesn't do that in Revelation 19. In 1 Thessalonians 4 he appears for his church. In Revelation 19 he returns with his church. In 1 Thessalonians 4 he appears as a deliverer, delivering his church from the wrath of God. Whereas in Revelation 19 Jesus returns as a warrior to pour out the wrath of God on those who have rejected the grace, mercy, and love of God. In 1 Thessalonians 4 Jesus appears in grace, but in Revelation 19 he appears in wrath. In 1 Thessalonians 4 Jesus appears as a bridegroom for his bride. But in Revelation 19 he returns as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

They just have nothing in common. And the only way you can argue that they are related to each other is to say, okay, they all happen at one time. What happens is Jesus appears in the heavens, we go up and meet him in the sky, and then we immediately come back down to earth. The yo-yo rapture. But that makes no sense at all.

And furthermore, that raises a lot of problems. As you well know, Jan, if you put the rapture and the second coming together, then you have no one to go into the Millennium in the flesh. Because if they happen at the same time, then everyone who is saved is glorified, and there are no people to go into the Millennium in the flesh. And the only way you can get people to go into the Millennium in the flesh is you've got to have some distance between the rapture and second coming, and that of course is the Tribulation. During that time many people will come to the Lord, most will be killed, but some will live to the end of the Tribulation. And those who accept Jesus during the Tribulation and live to the end of it are going to be allowed to go into the Millennium in the flesh, and they will repopulate the earth. But if you put those two together, the rapture and second coming is all one event. You have no one in the flesh to go into the Millennium. Dr. David Jeremiah, I'm going to have him build on what you've just said.

Okay. Now, here's where the disconnect is for most people who get confused about the future. The rapture and the second coming of Christ are not the same thing. The rapture is when Jesus comes back to take His people back to heaven with Him, then Tribulation on the earth takes place, and then the second coming is when Jesus comes back, and the Bible says He comes with all of the people of God and with all the angels and sets up His kingdom on this earth.

Now, here's the answer to that young girl's question. There are no signs for the rapture. The rapture could happen at any time, but the New Testament is filled with signs for the second coming.

But guess what? Every event casts its shadow before us, so if there are signs for the second Advent and they tell us that the second Advent is coming, that means the rapture is seven years before that, so the rapture is sure to coming, isn't it? So when we study the prophecies of the Bible and we see the regathering of Israel and we see the collection of the nations of Europe and we see all the things that are happening on the prophetic scene, what we know is this. Our redemption is drawing nigh. The Bible tells us that Jesus is going to come back, and I know I might embarrass myself a little bit by saying this, but I tell people everywhere I go, I expect to be here when Jesus comes back for the rapture. I believe that things are so close that if the Lord lets me live out my life, I'm going to see the rapture, and I've come up with a little slogan, I'd rather see the upper taker than the undertaker, wouldn't you? Hey, Reagan. Sometimes people will criticize the fact that we do talk about signs of the times, but my goodness, as David Jeremiah just said, what's happening is all written in the Bible, but even if it's a foreshadowing of what's to happen in the tribulation, the second coming, it's casting a huge shadow right now.

It certainly is. I just appreciate David Jeremiah so much. Another one I appreciate is Ron Rhodes. I don't know how well you know Ron.

Oh, very well. He's a great prophecy teacher. We had him speak at our conference a few years ago on the concept of the pre-trib rapture, and he was talking about those who believe in a post-trib rapture who put it together with the second coming, and he said, folks, the description of the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4 ends with the statement, therefore encourage one another with these words. He said, now we're going to combine the rapture with the second coming, and here is what you're saying to people. You will go through seven years of God's wrath. You will suffer through the terrible reign of the Antichrist.

You will experience the agonizing seal trumpet and bowl judgments, which will grow progressively worse and increasingly painful, and most of you will die painful deaths as martyrs. Therefore, encourage one another with these words. I've heard him say it. It's brilliant. It doesn't work.

Yeah, it doesn't work. Talking to Dr. David Reagan this hour because we carry his newest book, The Rapture Fact or Fiction. He's got about 21 points that he's analyzing throughout the book. He looks at the questions, the objections, comes up with a conclusion, and you know that if you follow this ministry, the conclusion is a pre-trib rapture.

It could happen any minute. David Reagan, I got this email recently. Let me read it.

I know what your response is going to be. Darren writes this. He says, I take the gospel into the prisons to the lost on a weekly basis. My wife and I attended your conference last year. We got the DVDs. I showed the conference DVDs to the inmates. This is in the prison here. He says, now these inmates, get this folks.

I'm going to get choked up here. Now these inmates can't get a hold of information going on outside the prison, but they could tell from these DVDs that his return is close. I showed them again to the inmates. He said, and now the chapel is packed. Inmates are sharing their faith boldly.

They are not willing that any should be left behind, and inmates are coming to Christ left and right. I have been doing this for years, and I have never seen a response like this. Thank you. God bless you.

We hope to attend your conference as well. David, you and I aren't surprised really. No, Bible prophecy, if taught properly, is a great tool of evangelism.

Chuck Smith proved that. He founded the whole Calvary Chapel movement on the teaching of Bible prophecy. Go on the internet, look up his name on YouTube, and you will see him preaching on the campuses of the colleges and universities in California to those young people and baptizing them by the thousands. All he was preaching in every sermon was Bible prophecy and the imminent return of Jesus. It's a great tool of evangelism.

Absolutely. Fits hand in glove, and that's what this prison evangelist is saying. Since he started introducing eschatology to the inmates, he said his chapel is absolutely packed. Pastors always tell me, well, Bible prophecy is just not relevant to the present. I've got too many problems in my congregation.

I've got to preach about it. And my point to them is, if you can ever convince your congregation of two truths, you will totally change them. Number one, Jesus really is coming back. Now, most people who claim to be Christians believe that with their head but not their heart. Believe it with your heart.

And number two, that is an event that can occur any moment. You convince people of those two things, they will commit their lives to holiness, and they will commit their lives to evangelism. And what more could you ask for? You can learn more at David's website,, And check out his weekly TV program, Christ in Prophecy, Christ in Prophecy.

You can learn the airings of that program, which I've had the privilege of being on a couple of times, at David, just a few more places I want to go. Then I've got to take my first break and then come back, and we've got some other topics that I want to consider. One would be the fact that the tribulation, it's really all about the Jewish people. And of course, then we get pounded for saying, ah, you guys want another Holocaust to happen, because that kind of happens in revelation to the Jewish people. But the purpose of the tribulation is for the salvation of the Jewish nation, not for the church. And I just think that the churches today do not understand nor do they have much of an interest in understanding the whole concept of Israel history, present, future, period. Replacement theology has taken over, many denominations, they just can't possibly comprehend how God still plans to deal with Israel. It's hard to believe, as most of Christendom does, that God washed his hands of the Jews because they're the killers of Jesus and has no purpose left for them.

And that's a horrible teaching. Yes. In fact, the Bible says all Israel will be saved. If they live through that tribulation, they're going to be saved because they're going to see him. In fact, Jesus himself said, I'm not coming back to this earth until the Jewish people are willing to say, Baruch haba b'shem Adonai, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.

That's right. When I get back, I want to talk about Dr. Reagan's got some 21 points in this book. He's got things laid out, the concept of the rapture, the questions concerning the rapture, the objections concerning the rapture, then of course, the conclusion as it concerns the rapture and all of this on just over 100 pages with footnotes. I think I read it in maybe two hours, a handy tool. And if somebody is trying to wrap their brain around the topic and they're saying, I have read books and they are so complicated, they are so theological, not saying that there's anything wrong with theological books, that's outstanding, but maybe not everybody can fully understand what's being written when it's highly theological. This one is written simply and it will be understood, I think, very, very quickly and very, very simply as well. When I come back, we've already touched on some of the objections.

We've already talked about the fact that there's a lot of pushback, actually in pushback by believers in premillennialism, not to mention pushback coming from amillennialism, preterism, Kingdom Now type theologies, which those are false, the post-millennialism and Kingdom Now, dominionism, false theologies, a lot of pushback there, but pushback from within our own camp as well. We'll pick up on this in just a minute or two. Don't go away. We now insert both still shots and video into our online YouTube presentations. For those of you who are visual persons, check out our YouTube channel under Jan Markell. You can also download the mobile app if you are on the go and are unable to stay by a radio or computer.

You can download the program to your devices. New programming appears every Saturday morning and is posted to our website as well, Thank you for trusting Olive Tree Ministries in an age of deceit and deception.

We'll try to be there for you in unstable times. It is now on the horizon, Understanding the Times 2019, Saturday, September 21st. Tickets will go on sale June 1st. They are general admission only and are $25, but include a lunch. After June 1st, we're asking that you call the Brushfire Agency at 888-338-5338 or sign up online at

That number again is 888-338-5338 after June 1st. We're featuring six speakers and we begin at 845 a.m. Church doors open at 7 a.m. The location is again Grace Church in Eden Prairie, Minnesota, just outside of Minneapolis.

Consult our website for hotel information. Our speakers include Dr. Robert Jeffress. These signs that have been around for a long time, they are increasing in frequency and intensity. I think something big is about to happen. I believe we're in the last days. I believe the Lord is going to return.

Amir Sarfati. And at the last trumpet, we're going to be out of here. There will be certain events around the world, and there will be the last trumpet, and we don't know the day, and we don't know the hour, but we understand the times and the seasons. Pastor J.D.

Farag. Because there's coming a time, and I believe it's very soon, when that trumpet's going to sound and everything here matters no more. I mean, shouldn't that affect us the way we live our lives? Pastor Jack Hids. And he's not only spoken to us in his word, he is speaking to us right now in world events.

He's requiring you and I to take what we're seeing in the world and match it up against the word of God. And Jan Markell. I believe that the world is longing for a man with a plan, for a Mr. Fix-It. It says down at the bottom of here, is there a leader who can stop the chaos? We will also have a greeting from Laurie Cardoza-Moore from proclaiming justice to the nations. The event will be live streamed at no cost.

Again, that Saturday, September 21, just outside of Minneapolis. We invite all remnant believers to better understand the times and become watchmen on the wall. Make friends for life at this annual conference.

Learn why things aren't falling apart, they are falling into place. I'm not afraid of the Antichrist because I'm not going to face him. I'm looking for Jesus, not the Antichrist. And furthermore, Jesus Himself said in Luke 21, 36, when speaking of the signs of the end times, He said, when you see all these things begin to happen, look up, be watchful, for your redemption is drawing near. And He said, pray that you can escape these things. Jesus told us to pray that we can escape them.

It's biblical to be an escapist. We love hearing from you if our two-part series on the Blessed Hope of the Church, known as the Rapture, has been an encouragement, write us through our website, That's Call us central time at 763-559-4444. That's 763-559-4444. Think about financially supporting our radio outreach on almost 850 radio stations with a tax-deductible check to Olive Tree Ministries, Box 1452, Maple Grove, Minnesota, 55311.

That's Box 1452, Maple Grove, Minnesota, 55311. Now back to Jan Markell and Dr. David Reagan. First Thessalonians 4, 13. But I do not want you to be ignorant.

Ooh, listen to that. Church, don't be dumb. Concerning those who have died in Jesus, fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have died in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means proceed or go up to those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven.

Isn't that cool? He's not sending no angel. He's going to do this himself. From heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel and the trumpet of God and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up. That's the word rapture right there. Together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Therefore comfort one another with these words. Listen, what is about to take place? When will it happen? No man knows the day of the hour. Could happen tonight. Could happen tomorrow. Are you ready? I hope you're ready. First Corinthians 15 tells us what's going to happen in that moment. Imagine just walking along, sleeping, whatever we're doing. Gosh, I hope it's not too fast because you know, when you're startled, you kind of, you don't know what's going on.

I hope it's slow enough to like, Oh my God. I told you. You should. Can you imagine? Amen. You need to accept the Lord.

Dude, it's too late for you. What's going to happen? First Corinthians 15 51 says, Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep or die, but we shall be changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye.

18 hundreds of a second and the last trumpet for the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. Well, that was the brilliance of Jack Hibbs. Pastor Jack Hibbs sharing a lot of platforms with Jack lately.

Wanted to play that little kind of humorous insights that he has. Let me just quickly say that if you do write to us, particularly if you're sending a gift, would you tell us what you're listening to electronically on one of our 850 stations or podcaster? Just tell us how you listen, won't you? We're very active on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube. We're inserting images now into our YouTubes so you can see exactly what we're talking about. Everything we're talking about, we'll show you.

And the YouTube channel is under Jan Markell. If you'll get my print and e-newsletter, you can call for those or sign up online. A lot of what we talk about, including the products that we're offering, and we are offering one this hour, all offered in our print and e-newsletter. And the one we're dealing with today, the product, the Rapture Fact or Fiction, Dr. David Reagan, his newest book, a skinny one. You can read it in two, three hours. And I'm prompted, again, have a double emphasis on the Rapture because as I said, introducing this program, I was recently at a conference in Canada where somebody literally jumped up and hollered for five minutes.

There's no Rapture. Disrupted 2,000 people there to learn about these events. Screamed and hollered and had to be literally picked up and hauled out. What upset him? Our blessed hope. Go figure.

We're in strange times. He was carried out. He looked back at the security team and smiled.

Great big smile, I'm told, because he got his point across. There's no Rapture. Well, if he's a believer, he'll be pleasantly surprised someday.

I promise you that. So, Dave Reagan, let's move on here because we want to hit some of the more specific topics in your book. And you've got a bunch of the objections to the blessed hope.

Let's talk about a few of them as we have time. Oh, it's not in the Bible. Okay, David, how can you write a book about a topic that isn't in the Bible? Talk to me.

How did you do that? That is really the number one objection I always run into. The second one being it's too new to be true. But number one is how can you believe something that's not even in the Bible? The Word's not in the Bible. Well, first of all, we need to understand that the Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek and one portion of it in Aramaic. So, Bibles have to be translated. The Latin Bible, which was translated by Jerome and published around 400 AD, that was the basic Bible of Western civilization for 1200 years.

Most people don't know that. They think the King James has been the only Bible used in the West. But no, the King James has been around 400 years.

This was 1200 years from 400 AD to 1611. That was the basic Bible of Western civilization. In 1 Thessalonians 4, 17, they can find the word rapture. It's right there where it talks about us being caught up to meet the Lord in the sky. It uses the word rapamur, which is a declension of the word rapio.

And that is a translation of the Greek word, herpazo, which means to be taken out, snatched out, caught up, whatever. First of all, the Word is there. The Word doesn't have to be in English for it to be a biblical word. Even if it weren't, the point is that there are many, many biblical words and concepts that are not found specifically in those words and concepts in the Bible. For example, the word Bible is not in the Bible, neither is the word Trinity, or Atheism, or Divinity, or Monotheism, or Shekinah Glory, Age of Accountability, Incoronation, and I could go on and on. All of these are biblical concepts, none of them are specifically stated as such, but they're there. That is just what I call one of the silliest arguments you could come up with is the Word is not in the Bible.

I would agree. Another thing that is thrown at us as an accusation is, well, you're a bunch of escape artists. You want to escape the wrath to come. Well, you bet, and the Bible talks a lot about the Church escape at 1 Thessalonians 1-10, 1 Thessalonians 5-9. You bring this up, you bring it up very effectively, so why don't you talk to us about these verses that promise us that we will escape the wrath to come.

Well, certainly. One of the reasons I believe in a pre-tribulation very strongly is because the Bible promises us that we will not be subjected to the wrath of God. This is a very important promise.

It is a promise that is repeated several times. You'll find in 1 Thessalonians 1-10 where it says that we are waiting for Jesus to come and will deliver us from the wrath that is to come. You'll find it again mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 5. You'll find it in Revelation 13 that we are not going to be subjected to the wrath of God. The tribulation from beginning to end is the wrath of God. There are people who say, oh, well, it's just the last part of it.

No, all of it from beginning to end. For example, the seal judgments, they come from the throne of God, and at the end of the seal judgments it says these judgments are the judgments of the Lamb. That means Jesus Christ, these are His judgments.

He is the one that opens each judgment. And when you get over to the end of Revelation and you get to the point where they are going to have the final bow judgments it says these are the final judgments of God, not the first or the beginning but the final. From beginning to end it is the wrath of God. People who try to put us there are just simply violating what the Word says, the promise of God that we will not be subjected to the wrath of God. You know, David, talking about its new book, The Rapture Fact or Fiction, and there's this thinking out there, particularly the pre-rathers, and you've already referenced the minute the tribulation hits, the minute the church is gone, the minute prominent politicians are gone, the minute certain governments cannot function, the minute there are planes crashing from the sky, the moment of the rapture, the moment after the rapture, it's chaos, it's lawlessness. And for some of these pre-rathers and others to say, as you've just indicated, oh my, the first part isn't all that bad, there will be a peace treaty, there might even be peace in the Middle East, hey, it's going to be not so bad.

Oh, it's going to be bad. In fact, the Bible indicates that in the first seal judgments one-fourth are going to die, one-third are going to die in the next series of judgments. Let's just play the math here for a moment. We have about seven billion people in the world today, let's just say for the purpose of math, that one billion of those are taken out in the rapture, leaving six billion. If you take out one-fourth of those in the first series, and one-third of those remaining in the second series, that means that by the middle of the tribulation, one-half of humanity will be dead. Unthinkable.

You and I participated in the filming of Billy Crone's series on the seals, and you're right, the seals are unthinkable, and oh my goodness. Jesus Himself says that if He didn't reach to an end, no one would survive. Exactly. And you mentioned escapists. I'm always called an escape. Well, you're just an escapist. You don't want to face the Antichrist.

In fact, that's what Michael Brown is saying today. These people are escapists who don't want to face the Antichrist. Well, I don't want to face the Antichrist.

Of course not. But I'm not afraid of the Antichrist because I'm not going to face him. I'm looking for Jesus, not the Antichrist. And furthermore, Jesus Himself said in Luke 21, 36, when speaking of the signs of the end times, He said, when you see all these things begin to happen, look up, be watchful, for your redemption is drawing near. And He said, pray that you can escape these things.

Jesus told us to pray that we can escape them. It's biblical to be an escapist. Noah was an escapist. Enoch was an escapist.

Lot was an escapist. And I want to visit that in just a moment. Folks, we do have some prophecy conferences coming up that we want you to be aware of. Remember, we are now offering tickets for our event September 21st, and that's just outside of Minneapolis, Minnesota. And look, we sold I think 1,300 tickets in about a day and a half. Don't wait till the last minute.

Go to,, or call 888-338-5338, 888-338-5338. It's general admission only, $25. That includes a lunch for September 21st outside Minneapolis. We've got a lineup, Dr. Jeffress, Amir Safadi, Jack Hibbs, J.D. Farag, yours truly, Laurie Cardoza Moore. Dave Reagan, you have a conference coming up.

Do you want to give a little plug for that? Dave Reagan Yes. We have an annual Bible prophecy conference that's held in mid part of July.

This year, I think it's July around 13th. Our theme this year is going to be concerning the defending of the faith. We're going to have your wonderful colleague, Eric Barger.

We're going to have him, Eric Barger, as one of our speakers. He'll be speaking about the apostasy in the Church. And we're going to have a speaker defending creation, Ron Rhodes will be defending the second coming of Jesus, which is coming under increasing attack. In fact, someone sent me a picture the other day, Jan, of a billboard somewhere, I don't know where it was, that atheists put up.

Atheists. And it said, Jesus coming soon? Are you tired of waiting?

Isn't it ridiculous? 2000 years? Come to our rapture party on May the 21st. An atheist rapture party?

But this is the kind of stuff that's going on. But we've got a stellar group of speakers scheduled. We'll start on a Friday evening with a concert by Marty Goetz. And then our keynote speaker this year is Kelly Shackelford, who is head of the largest law firm in the United States that's devoted entirely to the defense of Christian liberties. And he's going to give us an update on the attack on Christianity in the military, in education, in the public arena, and so forth. And then all day Saturday, we'll have a great variety of speakers. You're speaking too, right? Yes, I am.

I'll speak on the divinity of Jesus, which is under increasing attack. And how do folks get tickets for your event? We're just going to open up the doors, let people come in, come to our website and register. You got to register at That's right. Don't forget to do that, folks. You have made a couple of statements, and I find them intriguing because you have said that Enoch was taken out of the world in a rapture. But Noah represents Israel, who goes through the trial of the flood, but is saved. Many are saying Noah is a type of the rapture. And I found your analysis to be extremely interesting that Noah represents Israel.

He goes through it. He's saved, just as Israel will be. Yes, I tend to believe that Enoch was a Gentile. I tend to believe that Enoch being taken out of the world before the flood was a type of the rapture of the church, and that Noah and his family is a type of the Jewish remnant that God is going to preserve through the Tribulation. That to me is sort of symbolic of the promise of the rapture. But let's talk about some who actually were raptured. We've got Elijah. We've got two witnesses.

Oh, yes. The concept of a rapture is not something that is just out of the blue sky. Some people say, well, who ever heard of a rapture? Well, there's a lot of raptures in the Bible.

People don't understand that there are so many. In fact, I think in my book I list a total of eight raptures that we know of that are mentioned in the Scriptures. Enoch, of course, being the first one to be taken out, but there are others as well. For example, in addition to Enoch, we have the prophet Elijah, who was taken out.

Of course, most people are aware of that one. The third one is one that most people are not aware of, and that was the horizontal rapture of Ezekiel, who was taken from Babylonian captivity back to Jerusalem to see some things. And then another one is the ascension of Jesus, of course. Another one was Philip, who had a horizontal rapture. And then another one is Apostle Paul, who said he was caught up to heaven. The Apostle John was caught up to heaven. The two witnesses are going to be caught up to heaven. So the concept of a rapture is not something that's just very minimal. You find all the way through the Scriptures. Want to play one more clip here, and it happens to be of the late Grant Jeffery talking about the very things we're talking about.

Real short clip. We find in 1 Thessalonians 2 19 a wonderful phrase in which Paul writes, For what is our hope, or joy, or crown, or rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming? Paul says the rapture, the resurrection, is our joy. He says it's our rejoicing. It's our hope.

It's our crown of rejoicing. So do you rejoice in the hope of the resurrection? You should, because while other generations of Christians died in faith without having participated in the rapture before their death, they will ultimately participate in the rapture when you and I are raptured. But for those of us living, we have the promise that if we are alive when Christ comes, we'll not have to pass through the portals of death, but we'll pass from life to life eternal. And that is worth celebrating, folks.

And that is why we're talking about it now for two weeks. Yes, after two weeks talking about this topic of the imminent return of the Lord Jesus Christ, because there are signs that indicate that indeed it could happen perhaps today. If you've just joined me, you're listening to Understanding the Times Radio. I'm Jan Markell, and I have on the line Dr. Dave Reagan from Dallas Lamb Lion Ministries,, Be sure to check out his weekly TV, Christ in Prophecy, on all over the world. That's the beauty of Christian television is the outreach that it offers. And David, I'm so glad in your book, and we're carrying it again, the rapture fact or fictions in my store, give us a call. I'm so glad you included in your book, because not everyone does. And that is the example of the Jewish wedding. And I said earlier that the key to the latter days started in 1948, but their history goes back millennia. The Jewish people, tribulation is for the salvation of the Jewish nation, but the Jewish wedding makes the pre-trib rapture so obvious.

Oh, it sure does. I outline it in quite a bit of detail in the book about the betrothal, which is very different from our being engaged. They were considered married from the moment of the betrothal. And then there's the waiting period to make sure that the bride is clean, and while the bridegroom builds the house for them to live in. And of course, Jesus, he has betrothed himself to the church.

We're in the waiting period now where he is building those mansions, he said, for us. And then comes the fetching of the bride, which always is a surprise. It usually comes in the middle of the night. The bridegroom comes with his friends, and they blow a trumpet, and the bride has to be ready at any time. So she's got that dress close by, and she's ready to jump into it, get going. And then the union occurs. They go back to the room that the bridegroom has been working on, and they consummate the marriage there over a period of seven days, like the seven years of the Tribulation. And then at the end, they come out and celebrate their marriage with all their friends, just as we're going to celebrate our union with the Lord Jesus Christ, and the greatest feast the cosmos has ever seen, called the Marriage Feast of the Lamb. And so, yes, every aspect of the Jewish wedding process is pictured in the Rapture itself.

JAN MARKE It's so important, folks. I think it seals the deal, to be honest. Okay, David, point number 7 in your book, is there any mention of the Rapture in the Old Testament?

Talk to me, is there? DAVID Yes, and in the Old Testament, there are not any specific references to the Rapture, because the Rapture, this comes as a great surprise to many people, the Rapture is a promise to the Church, and the Church only is Jesus, the Bridegroom, coming for His Bride. Old Testament saints are going to be resurrected, we're told in Daniel chapter 12, they're going to be resurrected at the end of the Tribulation. However, there are verses in the Old Testament that hint at the concept of a Rapture, and I have those listed in my book. They hint at the concept itself, not specifically saying it's going to be the Rapture of the Church, because the Church is a mystery in the Old Testament, but there are certainly passages that hint at this. For example, there's one in Isaiah 26 verse 20. So, these are certainly concepts of the Rapture that are contained in the Old Testament without a specific prophecy of it. JAN MARKE It's a couple of verses, actually three, that I get a lot of questions on.

It does have an answer, it's actually kind of an easy answer. It would be 2 Thessalonians 2, 1-3. Let me read it. It's about the man of lawlessness, 2 Thessalonians 2, 1-3.

I want to explain it, folks, because it's confusing people, because you don't really understand how it moves from kind of one major topic to another moment in time. Actually, it says, Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure, or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter, as if from us to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. Okay, David, you address this.

Let's unpack this for a moment. Well, it's very important, Jan, because this is basically the only scriptural argument that people raise about the rapture, the pre-trib rapture in particular. But the interesting thing here, Jan, is that normally, almost always, when they bring up this argument, they will put down verse 1 and verse 3, and they skip verse 2. And the reason they skip verse 2, in other words, they'll read it like this. Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering to him, let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come until the apostasy comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed. So it says, see, we're going to be here when the man of lawlessness is revealed.

But it's not referring to that. It's referring to verse 2, where it talks about the day of the Lord. Verse 1 talks about the rapture. Verse 2 talks about the second coming of Jesus.

The day of the Lord is usually used in the scriptures to refer to the tribulation plus the millennium. And he's saying here, somebody has told you a false letter from me that the day of the Lord has come. This is a strong argument on behalf of the pre-trib rapture, because what happened here is that while Paul was with these folks, he taught them about the rapture. Then somebody sent them a letter, said the day of the Lord has come.

They had been taught that they wouldn't be here when the day of the Lord came. So they're writing Paul and saying, hey, did we miss the rapture? And he's saying, no, you haven't missed the rapture. The day of the Lord hasn't come. But when it does come, when the day of the Lord comes, you're not going to be here. And it's not going to come until the apostasy comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed.

And neither one of those things have happened. So you have not missed the rapture. But I think we have to clarify that when folks read about the day of the Lord, that is not now, that is not the rapture. It's later. It's far later.

No, you're exactly right. It is later. And his reference to that day will not come is not referring to the gathering in verse one. It's referring to the day of the Lord in verse two, the day of the Lord. That's generally the tribulation, folks. So it jumps in time. Lots of verses in the Bible jump in time.

So 2 Thessalonians 2, one through three, it jumps in time. It starts with the rapture, but then it moves on to the tribulation and on further. This whole passage just absolutely proves that he taught them that the rapture would occur before the day of the Lord. And they thought that somebody wrote them a letter and said, well, you're in the day of the Lord. They thought they'd missed the rapture.

David Reagan talks about this and much more in this about 100 page book that we're carrying in my store, The Rapture Fact or Fiction. Actually, we're selling it for $10. If you want to order it then by mail, it's $6 shipping. You can just order by mail if you'd like to. $10 plus six shipping that's in the U.S. only if you're out of the country.

Please get it on our website so that shipping can be calculated., It's just 100 pages. And again, easy to understand, easy to hand to someone who may be just a little new at some of this and you don't want them to get real bogged down in something so deeply theological that they'll just close a book and walk away. They won't from this particular book.

They won't do that. And that's the beauty of it. David, quickly, the rapture in the book of Revelation, you and I know Revelation 3.10 is the classic verse. The first three chapters to the church, then he says in Revelation 3.10, you're going to escape the wrath to come. Isn't that referring to the tribulation?

It certainly is. We have not had a situation yet where the wrath has come upon the whole world as it talks about there in Revelation 3. And it indicates that when that occurs and it comes upon the whole world that we're not going to be here. Revelation 3.10, read it, leave it. Then what about the rest to the book of Revelation? Obviously the church turns up at the end of Revelation, but in between all these verses about the saints in the book of Revelation, those are believers coming to faith.

That's right. The book of Revelation, the structure of it implies a pre-tribulation rapture because the first three chapters focus entirely on the church. Chapter 4, John is taken up into Heaven, I think is a symbol of the rapture. And the church is not mentioned again until the very last chapter of Revelation. Saved or mentioned, but those would be people who are the elect. They are the ones who are saved during the tribulation. There's going to be a lot of people saved during the tribulation.

Many of them will be killed, but some will live to the end. David, I'm down to a couple of minutes. Why don't you wrap it up?

Whatever is on your heart, it's all yours. One of the things that I thought about, one is that this book is designed for both ends of the spectrum. For it's designed for those who know little or nothing about the rapture, and it's designed also for the other end of the spectrum for those who know a whole lot and want to teach it. And it's designed to be a teachable book that you can get and teach to people. I also wanted to read a statement that I end the book on page 103.

I end it with this quotation. This is by Anne Graham Lotz, the daughter of Billy Graham and head of Angel Ministries. She said, the Bible says that believers in the last generation will not experience physical death but will be caught up in what is called a rapture, the snatching away to meet Jesus in the air and be reunited with loved ones who have died in Christ and have gone on before us. It will be the trip of a lifetime, a trip that is out of this world. Are you ready? Well, I hope so.

That's Anne Graham Lotz. And any person who's listening, who does not know Jesus as their Lord and Savior, this is the day for salvation. The Lord has extended your life so that you can reach out in faith and receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior. You do that and you are a candidate for the rapture. You will not be left behind. You will be taken with the Lord. So, why would you turn your back on such a glorious promise? Why would you, folks?

Nobody's guaranteed it tomorrow. How many stories have we heard? Somebody going about life unexpectedly and suddenly everything changes. Then what David Reagan had just concluded with is so important. Let me just go out of the program. Dave Reagan, by the way, thank you for giving up an hour to do our programming today. Appreciate all you do. Again, learn more at Look into his prophecy conference the middle of July. Gotta register, though.

And you gotta get tickets for mine September 21st. And they're going fast. Let me go out with this little saying I like to use. When the time was right, the sea parted. The walls fell down.

The lions went hungry. The sun stood still. The waves were calm. The stone was rolled away. The clouds were parted. The Lord ascended. And when the time is right, the King of Kings will return. God is never early. He's never late. He's always right on time. And His plan for you is good.

I want to thank you for listening. We'll talk to you next week. For two weeks, we have tried to assure you that the Church is watching and waiting for Jesus Christ rather than the Antichrist. We have this assurance even though our headlines are dark and sometimes our personal circumstances are unstable and discouraging.

God has prepared a glorious future for the believer in Jesus Christ. Let us hear from you through our website, That's By calling us Central Time at 763-559-4444. That's 763-559-4444. Or by writing our post office box. Write to Jan Markell and Olive Tree Ministries at Box 1452 Maple Grove, Minnesota 55311.

That's Box 1452 Maple Grove, Minnesota 55311. Until next week, look up as our redemption draws nigh. Things are not falling apart. They are all falling into place.
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