Is the book of Revelation veiled? Can anyone understand it or does it just create more questions?
Somebody once said that we should all be concerned about the future. Because we're going to have to spend the rest of our lives there. I love what Abraham Lincoln said. He said: the great thing about the future is it only comes one day at a time. Welcome to Understanding the Times Radio with Pastor Josh Schwartz and Ken Michael.
Brought to you by Olive Tree Ministries. The ministry founded by Jan Markel. In our program, Pastor Josh and Ken talk to Dr. Mark Hitchcock. The book of Revelation is often neglected.
But God had it written to be read and understood. In the extended version, Pastor Josh and Ken continue the conversation with Dr. Mark Hitchcock. You are not going to want to miss it. You can find the extended version ad-free on our website, olivetreeviews.org or on our YouTube and Rumble channels.
And although I love the book of Revelation, it genuinely makes my head hurt.
So I devoted the last several months of my life to studying the hardest topics in the entire book. And the answers I found were not what I expected. When it comes to the book of Revelation, because of how it's been interpreted for the last 150 years, not before that, but the last 150 years, people have a great deal of kind of fear and anxiety around the book. John was put into a spiritual time machine and catapulted. Into the future.
I don't think it was a DeLorean, but he saw things that he attempted in first-century language to describe to us. And it's so powerful. And people have so many questions about it. Why do you think there is still to this day, maybe more than ever? Such an interest In the book of Revelation, in particular, because it is the book that gives us the final things.
You know, the book of Genesis is the book of creation, this is the book of consummation. And people have all kinds of questions about the future. And people today, I think, have less hope than any time in history. We have so many things that are converging. People know everything that's happening in the world today.
So people have a kind of a gloomy outlook on life. There's a lot to depress people. And people, I think, want the hope that's presented in the book of Revelation, unlike any time in history. Welcome to Understanding the Times. I'm Ken Michael, along with my co-host, Pastor Josh Schwartz.
Well, The Revelation of Jesus Christ is an amazing book. And unfortunately, most churchgoers and even tragically, most pastors don't even want to discuss this book.
Well, we're going to do that today. With our guest today. He's the author of his new book, The Revelation Answer Book: 125 Common Questions People Ask About the Earth's Final Days. He's also a speaker and senior pastor at Faith Bible Church in Edmund, Oklahoma. We'd like to welcome back Dr.
Mark Hitchcock. Mark, thank you so much for joining us.
Well, great to be with you, always. Thank you so much. I appreciate y'all's ministry more than you'll know. Just to start out, Pastor Mark. Why don't people, and specifically pastors, even want to touch or discuss this book or teach this book?
Well, you know, one reason I think, you know, this is, I'm not saying that people who are pastors, you know, are somehow being moved by Satan or whatever, but you know, you think about this is a book that Satan doesn't want people to talk about. You know, it's a book that tells of his doom. And so he wants people to be sidetracked and not to talk about this book because it tells about how God's going to ultimately destroy. You know, Satan and all the works that he's tried to do.
So, you know, I think that there's one very, very, you know, kind of sinister reason that's there: Satan doesn't want people to talk about this book. But I think, just on a more practical level, you know, the book of Revelation is the most symbolic book in the Bible. A lot of people are intimidated to try to interpret all the symbols that are there. You know, the main mid-section of the book from chapter six through chapter 18 is very negative. I mean, it's all about the judgment and the wrath of God.
It's, you know, three series of judgments: seven seals, seven trumpets, seven bold judgments. And so there's just a lot of negative that's there. What I've seen a lot of pastors do, a lot of pastors will teach the first three chapters of the book of Revelation, and then they go to the last two chapters and they kind of leave out chapters four through 20. And to me, that's robbing people in their churches of the full picture of what God is going to do in the end time. You know, it's controversial.
There's a lot of different views about the end times. A lot of people don't want to, you know, take a stand on whether they're premillennial or amillennial or what they believe about the timing of the rapture and various things like that.
So I think a lot of people just avoid it for those various reasons. But it's sad because, again, this is the book that tells us how the story ends. It's kind of like, you know, reading a novel all the way up till the end, and you don't read the last chapter and find out, you know, how the story ends and how the hero ultimately is victorious and wins.
So it's tragic. You know, the book of Revelation is the only book of the Bible that has a blessing promised to those who read it and who hear it and who understand it and apply it to their lives. And so it's the blessing book. And really people are being robbed of a great blessing by not studying the book of Revelation. I agree.
And I think it's very important to bring that forth because we're going to be blessed by reading all of scriptures, but especially knowing how it all ends and the hope that we have for a future is a great blessing for us and helps us to stand in these dark days and persevere in the midst of. trial, turmoil, and little tea tribulation.
Now, in the opening clip, Pastor Mark, you were talking there about how Genesis is the book of creation and Revelation is the book of consummation. Can you walk through that for a moment with us? I think that's a really important aspect to point out.
Well, it is, you know, because the Bible's a story, and we don't have time to go into all of that now. But you have in Genesis 1 and 2, in the Garden of Eden, the perfect beginning. You have in the last two chapters of the book of Revelation, Revelation 21 and 22, you have the perfect ending. And all between that relies the fall and all that God does through prophesying in the Old Testament of the coming Messiah, Jesus coming. Uh, winning the victory there at the cross.
Ultimately, he's going to return back to set up his kingdom on this earth. And so, everything is going to come full circle from the book of Genesis all the way to the book of Revelation. And so, when you get to Revelation 21 and 22, there's all kinds of imagery there that takes us back to Genesis chapters one and two.
So, it's all full circle: it's the beginning, it's the ending, it's the creation, it's the consummation. Of course, we live in this time of the mess and the brokenness right now in between when sin is dominating in our world. But the book of Revelation tells us that a new world is coming, that this world that's upside down right now is going to be right side up someday when Jesus Christ comes back. And that's the only hope that we really have in this world today. It's the hope God gives us in the book of Revelation.
Yeah, Mark, I think you made an interesting point. And I hear this all the time from friends, family, churchgoers. If all of these events are going to happen and the church isn't even here, why do we even have to know about this or why even teach it? These are future events that aren't going to make a difference in our lives, especially for Christians.
So why even teach this book?
Well, it's a great question. First of all, you know, the first three chapters of the first chapter is a revelation of Christ. It's a picture of Jesus and his glorified, radiant, resurrected state. Chapters two and three are about the seven churches that apply to us today and the churches that we attend and we go to. Of course, chapters 20 to 22 are about the millennial reign of Christ and the new heaven and new earth.
So all of that applies directly to us. But there is that mid, big, large section of the middle of the book that's about that coming time of tribulation when I do believe that the church of Jesus Christ will be in heaven. But you think about, you know, back in the book of Genesis, God was getting ready to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. And he came to Abraham and he told Abraham what he was going to do. And he says, Shall I withhold from my friend that thing which I'm about to do?
And so God took Abraham into his confidence as his friend and shared with him what was going to happen to Sodom and Gomorrah, even though Abraham wasn't going to be there. And of course, Abraham interceded for Sodom and Gomorrah and prayed for those cities of the plain. But I think in the same way today, we're God's people, we're his children, we're God's friends, and God wants us to know what he's going to do in the future. I mean, even though part of that time, we're not going to be here. Because he wants us to know what his plan is and his program for the future.
He also wants us, I think, to be able to see. How events in our world today are setting the stage for those events that will happen when we're not here to give us a sense of expectancy and anticipation for his coming. Yeah, Josh, we talk about this all the time. We're seeing the stage setting for almost all of the things that the Bible talks about in the book of Daniel, the revelation of Jesus Christ. Those things have to be set up Before the Antichrist comes on the scene, because we know during that seven years, there's not going to be time to set everything up that's going to happen in the future.
So, when you see these things being set up and happening, wow, how close is the rapture of the church? Yeah, and Pastor Mark, thank you so much for that explanation because it is vital that we study the book of Revelation. It's vital that people are writing books about people's questions about the book of Revelation.
Now that we've laid the foundation, the groundwork for that, I have two questions for you. Number one, How is it, how should people approach studying the book of Revelation? And then what is the best way to interpret the book of Revelation?
Well, yeah, I think we approach the book of Revelation like we do other books. You know, we use a consistent, normal interpretation of scripture. It's called hermeneutics, it's the art and science of how we interpret the Bible.
So I think we approach the book of Revelation like we do all the other books of the Bible. We believe it's inerrant, it's inspired. What causes people difficulty with the book of Revelation is all the symbolism. It's the most symbolic book in the Bible. But here's a very important point, I think, as we approach the book and all these symbols: these symbols refer to something that's literal.
So that in kind of Hermeneutical terms, each of these symbols has a referent or something it refers to that's literal. And we get the key to how to interpret the book in chapter one. Jesus is there, and he's in the middle of seven golden lampstands. And it says he says seven stars in his right hand.
Well, we're not left to our own imagination to what the seven candlesticks are or what the seven angels are. He tells us later in the chapter one, he says the seven candlesticks or the lampstands are seven churches, and the seven stars in his right hand are the seven angels of these seven churches.
So Jesus is telling us right at the outset, when you see symbols, these symbols refer to something that's literal. And often, as you read the book of Revelation, like there in chapter one, the symbolism is explained in the immediate context. It'll tell you what this symbol refers to. Other places, there's not a clear statement of what the symbol refers to. We have the rest of the Bible to help us understand that.
And sometimes it's just very clear in the context. Like in Revelation 6, you have the second rider, the second horseman of the apocalypse, the second seal. Is a rider on a red horse. And he's riding on this red horse and he has a great sword in his hand that has, you know, with blood on it.
Well, it's very clear, and it says in the context that he goes and takes peace from the earth.
So it's very clear that this is a movement of warfare upon the earth.
So these symbols are not just symbols of nothing. And they're not just symbols that leave us to our own imagination to kind of make us mean whatever we want them to mean. They're often interpreted right in the immediate context, or they're explained clearly, or there's other places in the Bible where that same symbolism is used. We can understand what it means in the book of Revelation.
So it's very important that we understand that when we interpret this book, because people come up with all kinds of fanciful interpretations of the book of Revelation when they don't follow a consistent, normal, literal interpretation of the Bible. And literal interpretation includes. A symbolism. You know, the symbols are part of literal interpretation. We understand the symbols as they're intended in the context.
I think it's important what you said there is simply put: just keep reading. And if it's not explained as you keep reading in the greater context, then study your Bible more. Understand what's really being said in the Old Testament, because the Old Testament lays the foundation for what the book of Revelation is talking about. And it should drive us to study the whole Bible more to understand more fully what John is seeing in the visions of Revelation. Yeah, there's one thing here I want to mention.
The book of Revelation has 404 verses. There are up to, some people have found as many as 550 allusions to the Old Testament.
Now, there's no direct quotations from the Old Testament. That's interesting. But just hundreds of allusions to the Old Testament. In fact, the book of Revelation has been called the grand central station of the Bible because it's where all the trains of thought come together and come in.
So if we want to understand a lot of this symbolism, again, like you just reiterated, we go back to the Old Testament. That's where it all comes together in the book of Revelation. Yeah, real quick here, Pastor Mark, you mentioned the opening of the seal judgments. And unfortunately, many pastors and many churchgoers think we're already experiencing those sealed judgments. Can you just explain real quick the other three?
You explained the rider on the red horse. Explain who the rider on the white horse is, especially people think that's maybe Jesus coming. Right. You know, it's interesting. In Revelation 6, as these seals begin to be opened, it follows the same pattern you have in Matthew 24.
Jesus gave his final great sermon on the Mount of Olives. It's called the Olivet Discourse. And Jesus talked about the future and things to come. And Jesus in the Olivet Discourse, that's often called the mini apocalypse, kind of a condensed version of the book of Revelation. And he says there's going to be false Christs and false messiahs, wars and rumors of wars.
There's going to be famines in various places. There's going to be earthquakes and death on the earth and bloodshed. And if you really follow Revelation 6, the four horsemen, they follow the same outline that Jesus gave. And so the first thing Jesus said is, you know, don't be misled. There's going to be many false messiahs and false Christs.
So the rider on the white horse, I think, is going to be a kind of a line of false Christs and false messiahs who will appear during the end time. And ultimately, that will all coalesce into the final great false Christ or Messiah, the Antichrist.
So, if we parallel Revelation 6 with Matthew 24, Jesus tells us clearly the rider on the white horse is the coming Antichrist. And then you have the rider on the red horse. Jesus said, wars and rumors of wars, nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom. It says the rider on the red horse comes and takes peace from the earth.
So that tells us the rider on the white horse, the Antichrist, is going to bring some kind of a temporary counterfeit false peace to the world at the beginning of his reign, but it'll be taken away by the rider on the second horse. But the third horseman is the black horse, and that's the black horse there of famine. And often, you know, famine and deprivation and economic collapse comes as a result of war.
So that's going to be what will follow the red horse. And then the final of these four horsemen is called the pale horse. It's the Greek word there chloros. I mean, it's used of a pale green color. It's kind of the color of a decomposing corpse.
And it says there that a fourth of the earth is going to be killed just in this one judgment. It's going to be killed by the sword, by famine. By pestilence or disease, and by the wild beasts of the earth. And the wild beasts of the earth could be Diseases that come from animals. About 75% of the new diseases in our world are called zoonotic diseases.
They're coming from animals. And a fourth of the world will die just in that one judgment. There, it's horrific to think of that. It could be a billion people just in that one judgment who die.
So, those are the often called the four horsemen of the apocalypse. They're those first four seal judgments. And obviously, we're not in the midst of those now because the Antichrist hasn't come on the world scene today. He's still being held back and being restrained by the presence of the church on the earth.
So, we're not in the time of those seals being opened. That's going to begin to take place, I think, after the rapture of the church to heaven. Yeah, Josh, and we tell people all the time that's why it's so important to get saved. If you're not saved today, today is the day of salvation. You do not want to be here to experience this.
No, you do not. And Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. And you can only have salvation, you can only have eternal life through Him.
So, friend, if you're hearing this maybe for the first time, I would beg you, open the Bible and read truly who Jesus is. is and understand that he has come. He has died for you. He has resurrected as God's substitute in your place so that if you would place your faith in him alone, you would be saved.
Now, Pastor Mark, thank you so much for pulling together Matthew chapter 24 and the book of Revelation because it's so important. Many people want to pull them apart, but really they're two sides of the same coin. They're really explaining the same thing from different perspectives, from John's more full perspective in the book of Revelation. and Jesus's all of a discourse there in Matthew chapter 24.
Now, Pastor Mark, as we transition, we want to play a quick clip and then get your response to it. Volibacum. John Piper, John MacArthur. three very influential evangelical leaders. and they agree with the essentials of the faith.
But disagree. with the timing of the rapture. I do not believe that there's anything in the book of Revelation that supports the idea of a secret rapture of the church. Here's how it goes. It's going to be the rapture of the church.
That's an unsigned event. In other words, there's no sign preliminary to that event. Going to be suddenly in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. For that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed.
So that's argument number one for why I think the pre-trib rapture doesn't work. The timing will differ depending on someone's view of the rapture. For example, if someone holds a pre-trib rapture belief, they would believe that these judgments wouldn't take place until after the rapture. And if someone holds a post-trib rapture position, they would think that these judgments would take place sometime after Israel's temple is rebuilt and after the Antichrist is revealed. And if someone holds an amillennialist position, then they would argue that these judgments aren't meant to be literal and have already happened.
You're listening to Understanding the Times Radio, the program founded by Jan Markell. I'm Pastor Josh Schwartz with my co-host here, Ken Michael. And today we have our guest, Pastor Mark Hitchcock, and we are talking about the book of Revelation. And Pastor Mark has recently written a new book called The Revelation Answer Book. We're carrying that at our online store.
If you go to olivetreeviews.org underneath the store tab, you can find that as a featured new book. Also, you can find Understanding the Times on any of the platforms where you find your podcasts, whether that be Spotify or Apple Podcasts. We just ask that you would search Understanding the Times and that should pop right up for you.
Now, Pastor Mark, we've had a great conversation so far about why study the book of Revelation and why it's so important. What we'd like to do now is go into some rapid fire questions that we've brought out of your book about maybe some questions that people might have about the book of Revelation.
So first off here, what does it mean to say or why is it titled the Revelation of Jesus Christ?
Well, the word revelation is apocalypsis. It's the unveiling of Christ. There's different ways to translate that, though. It could be the revelation about Christ, or it's the revelation from Christ.
Now, it's both, but. But I think primarily here it's a revelation from Christ because when you read verse one, it's the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his bondservants.
So I think primarily this book is a revelation from Christ. When you read in the beginning of the book of Revelation, it says there's a kind of a chain of transmission. goes from God the Father. To Jesus, to angels, to John, then to us.
So it's a revelation from Christ, but certainly it's a great revelation about Jesus as well. There are about 35 names and titles for Jesus found in this book. He's called the Lamb 28 times.
So it's a revelation about him, but primarily it's a revelation from him that he's giving to these angels to give to John, then to come to us. By the way, let me just say this. That means we should study it. It's called an apocalypse, which means an unveiling. In other words, we don't want to keep the lid on the book.
We want to take the lid off of the book or take the veil off and study this book. In other words, it's implied here that we can understand what it means and we can live it out and we can apply it to our lives.
So you mentioned earlier the seven churches. Who are the angels of the seven churches mentioned in this book? Because there's so much symbolism in the Bible.
Well, it mentions these seven angels of each of these seven churches. A lot of people take those to be that they're literal angels, that kind of each church kind of has this angel assigned to it. And that makes sense because if you read the book of Revelation, almost all the times in the book, the word angels does refer to angelic beings. But I take the angels here, the word angel or angelas, it just can mean a messenger. I take these to be human messengers.
For a couple of reasons. One is, again, going back to that order of transmission, the book it says is from God the Father to Jesus to the angels. Uh, to John and then to us, but Jesus here gives the message to John. Than to give to these angels. And so that would kind of mess this up if these are angelic beings, because you have Jesus giving a message to John, then to write to the angel.
And so I take these angels as human messengers of each of these churches. Also, when you read these letters, Most of the time, the pronouns here are in the second person singular, which is including the angel in the message to the book. And some of the things in the message to these churches are negative. They're sinful things that are happening. And that would include an angel within the message to this book, which is calling them to account for some sin.
And we know angels don't sin. They're perfect. I take it that he's writing here to a leader. Maybe we'd call him today a pastor or an elder. Of each of these churches, and he's telling this leader of the church: here's what's going on in this church that you're overseeing.
And he's including this leader in the message to that church. One of the things that's beautiful to me about that is at the beginning, Jesus holds these seven stars. which are the seven messengers of these churches he holds them in his right hand And that always gives me great comfort as a pastor. To know that the Lord Jesus holds those who are his pastors, his elders, his shepherds in churches, he holds them in his hand. And I hope for any pastors who are listening, that'll be a comfort to you.
Whatever's going on in the church you're pastoring, the Lord has you firmly in his hand, in his grasp. That's really encouraging. And thank you for thoroughly working through that. And I think your point there about the second person plural meaning there, including the messenger, is very important to bring up.
Now, also, Pastor Mark, in Jesus' letters to the churches, in two different letters, he mentions the synagogue of Satan.
Now, what does he mean about that? Who is he talking about? Yes, the church at Smyrna, and then he writes later to the church at Philadelphia, refers to the synagogue of Satan. Probably what that refers to are Jews. Both of those cities, Smyrna and Philadelphia, had large Jewish populations, there would have been Jewish synagogues there.
There were Jews who were meeting in those synagogues, and those Jewish people in those synagogues had joined forces. With the Gentiles in those areas and persecuting the church. And so, in both of those cases, Jesus says: really, those synagogues there are really not true synagogues, they've actually become synagogues of Satan. Because Satan is using them to persecute the true church, the believers in Christ.
Now, we should never use that kind of a statement as a justification to be anti-Semitic. He's not saying here that you're all Jews or the synagogue of Satan in that way, but he's just saying in this case, These Jews had joined forces with these Gentiles to oppress the church and to persecute the church. And so he's saying that the Jews who were there in those churches weren't really true Jews. In other words, they weren't Jews in the spiritual sense of having their faith and their trust in Jesus Christ. But again, we don't want to use that in some blanket statement about all Jews, the synagogue of Satan.
Alright, next question. Who are the 144,000 from twelve tribes?
Well, you've just really said it there. There are 144,000 Jews from 12 tribes of Israel. All these 12 tribes are mentioned.
Now, the tribe of Dan is excluded here in this listing. But there are 12,000 men. We learn in chapter 14 of Revelation that these are males. Chapter seven tells us that there are 12,000 from each of these 12 tribes of Israel. And again, to try to make that symbolic today of the church totally takes away from the specificity of this passage.
And he goes through and says 12,000 from Reuben, 12,000 from Gad, 12,000 from Judah. I mean, he says, you could have just said, well, you know, 12,000 from the 12 tribes, but he goes through and mentions these tribes specifically.
So these are men. That God is going to supernaturally save and redeem. Probably near the beginning of the tribulation period, and they're sealed in their forehead to go out and carry out ministry for Christ. And the last half of chapter seven talks about a multitude of Gentiles that you can't number. Who are saved, who've been martyred during the tribulation.
And the fact that you have the 144,000 mentioned first in that chapter, and then this mass of saved Gentiles, to me, gives kind of a cause and effect relationship between these two groups: that the 144,000 will be God's human instruments to share the gospel with these Gentiles who then are converted.
So it seems that their ministry is going to be a great evangelistic ministry during the time of the tribulation. And God will preserve the 144,000 throughout the entire tribulation period. Not one of them will die. God will supernaturally seal them and protect them during that period of time. That's amazing.
I like to think of these 144,000 as imagine 144,000 Pauls on mission to proclaim the gospel and honor God with what they are doing in this time.
Well, friends, we've been talking with Pastor Mark Hitchcock, who just recently released his new book, The Revelation Answer Book. We're selling that at our online store. That's at olivetreeviews.org underneath the store tab. All of these questions have come from his book directly.
So if you're intrigued and interested in that, I would push you to really check out this book and really work your way through it because there are answers for all the hard questions of the book of Revelation. Pastor Mark, thank you for joining us today. Thanks so much for having me. God bless you guys. Welcome back to the extended version of Understanding the Times.
I'm Ken Michael, along with my co-host, Pastor Josh Schwartz.
And today we are so thrilled to have with us Dr. Mark Hitchcock, Faith Bible Church in Edmund, Oklahoma. He's also the author of his new book, The Revelation Answer Book. We're so glad to have you back with us, Mark. Thank you for joining us.
Great to be with you guys. Thank you. We've been discussing the book of Revelation in the first half. And we keep hearing about this secret rapture and how it's presented to the church. Give us some Bible verses that support not only an actual rapture, but a pre-trib rapture.
I always go to Revelation 3.10. How do these verses support a pre-rapture view?
Well, you know, first of all, I like to say I respect all those men. You know, people have different views about this. We love these men. You know, Vodi Bakum's just gone to be with the Lord recently, and so appreciate his ministry greatly. Yeah.
I do disagree with him, though. He calls it a secret rapture. We never call it that. It's not going to be secret. The whole world's going to know about it.
You know, millions, by hundreds of millions, I don't know how many people are going to disappear in a moment, a twinkling of an eye. It's not going to be secret. So it's we I don't like to call it a secret rapture. But he says, you know, there's nothing in the book of Revelation, you know, that supports a pre-trib rapture, but you just mentioned Revelation 3:10. And Revelation chapter 3, verse 10 says, This is one of Jesus' messages to the church at Philadelphia.
Now, people would say, Well, that was just a message to that church. But remember, in the letters to the seven churches, Jesus says, He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Plural.
So I think this applies to all the churches, all believers. He says, Because you've kept the word of my perseverance, I will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour that's about to come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth. I am coming quickly. Hold fast what you have in order that no one take your crown. Jesus says here that there's an hour of testing that's going to come on the whole earth.
And now, if you read the book of Revelation in context, that can only refer to chapters 6 through 18. That's that time of testing that's going to come on the whole world. And he says, Here, I'm going to keep you from the time of the testing.
So, notice it's not just, I'm going to keep you from the testing. In other words, you'll be here, but I'll keep you from the testing. He says, I will keep you from the hour or the time of the test.
So we're going to be kept from the very time itself. and the only way I know for us to be kept from the time of the test It is to not be here during that period of time. And he says the purpose of this time of testing is to test the earth dwellers. People whose whole focus is this earth and we're stubbornly in rebellion against God.
So the tribulation period does not have a purpose. For the church. It's to test those who dwell on the earth. And other places in the New Testament tell us that we're exempt from God's wrath. In 1 Thessalonians 1 and verse 10, it says that Jesus is going to come from heaven to deliver us from the coming wrath.
And the wrath there, I think, is the wrath of the tribulation period. In 1 Thessalonians 5:9, he says, God has not appointed us to wrath. But For obtaining salvation through Jesus Christ.
So, the real question is, really, in all these views, is when does the wrath begin? And those who hold the mid-trib will say, well, the wrath's just the last half of the tribulation. We'll be caught up before that. Um, post-trib believes that the wrath is right at the end of the tribulation, and we'll be here during that time, but kept through it or kind of kept from it. But I believe the whole seven-year period is the wrath of God.
It begins with the sealed judgments as Jesus begins to pour out wrath on the earth. And the only way for us to escape that wrath is, he says, I'm coming quickly. to give to every man and reward every man according to what he's done.
So My view is the whole time's wrath, if we're exempt from wrath, then God has to come and catch us away before that wrath begins. I think that supports a preacher of rapture. You know, John MacArthur there mentioned that the rapture is a signless event.
So, it's an event that can happen at any moment. If you hold any of the other views of the rapture, you cannot believe that Jesus will come back today. If it's mid-trib, it's three and a half years away. If it's post-trib, it's at least seven years away. Only a pre-trib person can get up every day and say, you know, this is the day that Jesus could come back.
There's a lot of other reasons for pre-trib. You know, John Piper there, he said in 2 Thessalonians, his comment was, well, that day can't come. Until The man of lawlessness is revealed, and the apostasy comes, but that day there is not the rapture. And the context of that day is the day of the Lord. The true nilation period.
So I think he's misunderstanding what that day means. In the context of that passage.
So, those are just a few comments. We could make a lot more comments about that, about the timing of the rapture, but those are just a few I hope are helpful. Yeah, he makes a great point, Josh, about the earth dwellers.
Well, we're not earth dwellers, the church isn't earth dwellers, they're pilgrims. We're going somewhere. Unfortunately, those that don't believe in Christ at that time are going to be left behind. Yeah. And Pastor Mark, thank you so much for bringing up 1 Thessalonians 1:10.
It's one of my favorite verses. The whole chapter is so important just contextually because what's happening there is Paul is laying out the transformation that's happened to the believers in Thessalonica. And they've been transformed from serving idols to serving the true God and not only serving the true God, but proclaiming him and waiting for the soon return of the Lord Jesus Christ.
So it's so important to understand what Paul is saying there.
So thanks for bringing that forth. Also, Pastor Mark, why would you hold just in maybe one or two sentences to a pre-tribulational rapture, does it just make the most sense or through the reading of the scriptures?
Well, it's we're exempt from the wrath that's coming. I think the rapture is presented as something that can happen in any moment. He says, you know, in 1 Thessalonians 1:10, we're waiting up for his son from heaven.
Well, if it can happen at any moment, that means other things don't happen before it.
So it has to be a pre-tribulation. You know, also, you know, the rapture is called the blessed hope. You know, if we have to go through the whole tribulation to get to it, Tim LaHaye used to say it'd be the blasted hope. You know, it's presented as the blessed hope. You know, comfort one another with these words, it's a comforting hope.
The restrainer has to be removed before the rapture can take place. I think the restrainer is the ministry of the Holy Spirit through the church of Jesus Christ. The restrainer has to be taken out before the Antichrist can come on the scene, and the Antichrist has to come on the scene before the tribulation period can start.
So, there are many, many different reasons I have. We can do a whole program on that. But those are some of the reasons. It's based on the Bible. It's not just based on some escapist mentality.
It's the view that I like to hold because we won't be in the tribulation. It's based on. What the scriptures tell us, I believe, about the future. And I think it's specific. You look at 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5.
You have the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 to 18. And then beginning in chapter 5, verses 1 to 3, you have the day of the Lord or the tribulation. Just the order there is instructive. It's the rapture. Then you have the day of the Lord that comes after that.
So, just a lot of different reasons like that that are found in the Bible.
So, Pastor Mark, in talking with people, and I'm sure you've talked to people also that have the view that the first half of the tribulation isn't going to be that bad because there's going to be peace and security during this time. And they think that nothing bad is going to happen. I know in the first half of the program, you talked about the sealed judgments being opened. Just how bad will the first half of the tribulation be?
Well, it's important to remember: you know, Jesus talked about these signs that are going to unfold as birth pains.
So, they're going to intensify as the tribulation goes on, and they're going to get closer together, just like birth pains. They start getting closer together in frequency, and they intensify. And so, There's surely the judgments are going to intensify, but the first half of the tribulation is still part of God's judgment. Jesus in Matthew 24, there's going to be wars and rumors of wars, false messiahs, famines, earthquakes in various places. You know, people are going to be delivered up.
Believers are going to be martyred during that period of time.
So, the first half of the tribulation is going to be tribulation.
Now the last half. In Matthew 24, 21, Jesus says, after the abomination of desolation is set up by the Antichrist at the midpoint of the tribulation. Matthew 24, verse 15, he says, then there will be great tribulation. such as has never occurred before that time or will ever be after it.
So the last half. is the Great Tribulation. But the first half is still tribulation. That's when these seal judgments will be open. And the fourth seal is the rider on the pale horse, the pale rider.
is going to kill one-fourth of the people on the earth.
So that's hardly a time of tranquility and peace on the earth, but it will even get worse as you go along into the second half of the tribulation period. What you said there was so phenomenal because you said that it's still going to be tribulation. That's just the reality. The tribulation starts in Revelation chapter 6, verse 1, with the opening of the first seal by the Lamb, who I believe fully is Jesus himself.
So it is the wrath of God that's being poured out there, and it will only get progressively worse and worse.
So thank you for putting that clearly for us. and our listeners. Pastor Mark, there's also a lot of controversy, a lot of different opinions on the millennium.
Now, you hold to a Pre-millennial return of Jesus. Can you walk us through why you're pre-millennial? Yes, you know, one thing I want to mention in one of the videos you had earlier, I think it was Matt Chandler who's on there. Again, I have respect for all these men, so I don't want people to take what I'm saying as I don't like them or I'm against what they say. But you know, we can disagree with one another about these things.
He made the comment that this view that's being taught of Revelation today, which would really be talking about the view that I hold, has just come about in the last 150 years. And that is historically false because you can go back to Irenaeus. In the second century, I mean, he was the luminary in the early church in the second century, about 150 to 180 AD.
So he's 50 to 80 years after the book of Revelation is written. And Irenaeus was a premillennialist, he held to a literal thousand-year reign of Christ on the earth. Irenaeus held to a pre-tribulation rapture. He believed in a future Antichrist. He believed in a three and a half year rule and reign of the Antichrist on the earth.
He believed in a rebuilt Jewish temple.
So Irenaeus in 150 AD believed the same things basically that I believe today.
So when people say, you know, this view of revelation we have now or of the end times has just come about in the last 150 years, that's simply not true. It's historically an accurate statement. But I hold to premillennialism. One of the reasons is because of church history. All the earliest church fathers, Papias.
Who was actually a disciple of the Apostle John? He believed in a literal thousand-year reign of Jesus on the earth. He was a premillennialist, and he was a student of the Apostle John. Irenaeus, who was taught by Polycarp, who knew John, was also a premillennialist.
So these people in the early church that had the closest association directly with the apostles, even John the Apostle, they believed in a literal thousand-year reign of Jesus. And so, to me, if John had taught something differently from that, you would think they would say, hey, I'm disagreeing with John here, you know, in holding that view. But There's several things here. One is if you read Revelation 20, verses 1 to 7, you have the words thousand years six times. And when a time period is repeated like that over and over again, to me, it forces the issue to take it in some symbolic way.
And when it's repeated six times, it's a literal thousand years. And if you read just the chronology of the book of Revelation, you have chapter 19. Where Jesus returns back to the earth, he comes back and destroys the armies of Armageddon. The beast and the false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire. And then at that point in time, Right after that, in chapter 20, Satan is bound.
He's thrown into the shaft of the abyss for a thousand years, and Christ and his people rule on the earth for a thousand years.
So, if you just take the chronological flow of the book, It's the return. And then you have this binding of Satan, this thousand-year reign, then you have Satan released for a little while and he comes out on the earth and he's finally condemned. Then you have the great white throne judgment, then you have the new heaven and the new world.
So, just the chronological flow of this, you know, those who don't hold the premillennial view have to take chapter 20 and you have the second coming of Jesus in chapter 19. Then they say, Now we're going to go back to the first coming of Jesus and we're going to have this thousand years during this current age. I just don't think that that's the way you read this because over and over again in these verses, John will say, and I saw. And I saw, and I saw, and I saw. And it seems to be a chronological flow or a sequence here.
So that means the thousand years follows. The second coming of Jesus. It's a literal thousand years. One other point: during this thousand-year millennium, Satan is bound. And he's bound in the abyss.
And the abyss is a place in Revelation 9 where some angels are held and don't have any freedom to roam about. And it's clear from the New Testament that Satan is not bound right now in that sense. I mean, he's the prince of the power of the air. He's the god of this world. He's roaming about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
So, this can't be referring to this current age as amillennialists and post-millennialists believe, because Satan right now is not bound in the abyss. where you can't have any activity. Yeah, we war against principalities and powers and these satanic hosts. And so this has to be referring to a future binding of Satan during a literal 1,000-year reign. I'm of Jesus Christ on the earth.
And there's a lot more I can say about this, but that's probably enough for right now. No, you're right. You're right, Pastor Mark. And when we look at this book, and if we're to take Bible prophecy seriously and literally, like we have, all the prophecies have been fulfilled literally. I don't know why we would look at the end of the book, especially in the book of Revelation, that gives specific numbers of days.
It says a thousand years, it says a millennial. We know there's going to be seven years of tribulation from when the covenant is confirmed to the end, to the midpoint to the end.
So I don't know why we don't take that literally also. Yeah, it's so important, as you've laid out so many times, even previously in this program, Pastor Mark, that we have to be consistent. Our hermeneutic matters. The way that we interpret the scriptures matters. And we have to be literal there and take him seriously like we would take any other author of any other book.
Now, time is failing us, but I do think that there's one more question that I want to get your thoughts on, because it is really growing in popularity in Bible prophecy circles right now. And that's this, the little season of Satan, Satan's little season. Many people are saying we're in Satan's little season now. What are your thoughts on being in Satan's little season now? And what are they referring to when they talk about Satan's little season?
Well, I think, you know, when it says in Scripture that, you know, when Satan's going to put out of heaven, he's going to go forth with great fury, knowing that he has but a little time or a short season. Oh, but that's in the future. That's in Revelation 12. When Satan and his demonic hosts are permanently expelled from heaven. You know, a lot of people may not realize right now, it's an interesting point.
You know, back in the book of Job, when all the angels come and appear before God, Satan is there. And he appears before God.
So he has some limited access to heaven then, I think, still now. But in the future, at the middle of the tribulation period, that's the timing, I think, for Revelation chapter 12. There in verses seven to ten, seven to nine, seven to ten. Satan is going to be expelled from heaven. There's going to be a war in heaven.
I mean, there's going to be an ultimate Star Wars, if you will. Michael and the good angels are going to expel Satan and these fallen angels from any access to heaven. And it says that Satan will go forth with great fury. Realizing that he has just a short season. And I think the short season, there's the last half of the tribulation.
He's going to know. He knows the signs. He knows what's happening. He knows he's not going to have much time.
So he'll go forth with great fury on there. It says, Woe to those who are on the earth. Yeah. He has just this short time.
So That's Satan's short season. It's going to be in the future. It's not something that's happening right now in the present time.
Well, thank you for that. That's pretty simple, pretty straightforward, and pretty chronological as you take a literal interpretation of the book of Revelation. All these things have answers. Pastor Mark, we're so thankful for your new book, the Revelation Answer Book. Friends, like I've said previously, the majority of the questions that we've asked today come straight out of that book.
And we're just so thankful to have Pastor Mark on with us today. Pastor Mark, how can people get in touch with you if they want to, especially if they want to get their hands on this book? It's in our store, all of treeviews.org. But how can people get in touch with you?
Well, I have a website, marklhitchcock.com. There's not a lot of information there. I'm on endtimes.com. I do a lot with that ministry. People can go to marklhitchcock.com's that website.
The book's available. You all are selling it. I want to encourage people to buy it from you. I know it helps your ministry there, but it's available, all the. Places today where books are available by Amazon, all the online places.
And one thing I want to just mention about the book, real quickly, is: you know, I've taught the book of Revelation at Dallas Seminary many, many times. I've taught it at our church a couple of times. And I don't claim to have all the answers to the book of Revelation, but I feel like over all this time, I've figured out what all the questions are.
So you got to know the questions before you know the answers. And so I hope in compiling these, I'll answer pretty much most of the questions that people have. And hopefully the answers, you know, people will find those satisfying and helpful. But you can get the book and really find about anywhere online that the books are sold. Yeah, you did a wonderful job.
We've read through it. It's fantastic. I would encourage our listeners. To pick it up, olivetreeviews.org. Pastor Mark Hitchcock, thank you for joining us today and God bless you and your ministry.
Thank you so much. God bless you all as well. Contact us through our website, olivetreeviews.org. That's olivetreeviews.org. Call us Central Time at 763-3.
559-4444. That's 763-559-459. 44 44. We get our mail when you write to Olive Tree Ministries in Jan Markell, Box 1452, Maple Grove, Minnesota, 55311. That's box 1452, Maple Grove, Minnesota, 55311.
All gifts are tax deductible. Make sure you visit our web store at olivetreeviews.org. Where we are featuring Pastor Mark Hitchcock's new book, The Revelation Answer Book. Tune in to the extended version of this week's program on our website AddFree at olivetreeviews.org. or on our YouTube and Rumble channels.
God gave us His Word to understand the times. We must read it. The stage is being set. and everything is falling into place. It's all in love.
Yeah. Be unto your name Be unto your name.
