This is the Truth Network. Welcome to Truth Talk Live. All right, let's talk the truth is. I can't hide it. Yeah.
A daily program powered by the Truth Network. This is kind of a great thing, and I'll tell you what. Where pop culture, current events, and theology all come together. Speak your mind. And now, here's today's Truth Talk Live host.
All right, question of the day. Why do churches Die. Across the landscape of America and even Europe and other places in the world. There is a graveyard. And there is RIP over a lot of churches.
There are churches that have gone woke, churches that have gone broke, churches that have gone left, churches maybe that have gone to right. Mm-hmm. Why do churches die? Maybe you have a testimony. We don't have to mention names.
We don't have to be attacking. We don't have to shame a bunch of people. What we want to do is get to the life we have in Christ. The church is God's plan A. But we wanted to ask this question today because it's the kind of the Elephant in the room.
You see it, you hear about it. Another church closes their facility down.
Next thing you know, it's an art center or It's become a recreational center or it's just Dead, it's condemned, and there's no one showing up everywhere. You go by Sunday, there's no cars there. Or maybe your church is just about To go comatose and then get the plug pulled because you're just, no one is coming. What about the aging population? That's our topic today.
We've got a special guest. The toll-free number nationwide. Is 866-34TRUT. I'm Stu Epperson. Your host, honored to be in the hot seat today, in the true seat, but really I'm going to put our guest in the hot seat.
We're going to ask him the question. We're going to take this question and spin off in a lot of different directions. And we're going to really, this is a solutions-oriented focus here. We want to find, God's building his church. The gates of hell are are not going to prevail.
But as we're getting there, I want to hear from you. As to what do you see, what have you seen, maybe what you have fallen prey to, maybe you're the reason, someone out there listening, maybe I kill the church. Because I got in there and maybe it's gossip. Maybe it's We're so. navel gazing Introspective.
kind of inverted that we have forgotten there's a lost world around us.
So, with me is the pastor. Last time I had a pastor on to talk about, we talked about that hot topic of politics in the church. I had a pastor of a pretty good-sized church, a big church in Raleigh. Do they have a pastor? of a very traditional church.
That's not as big as a smaller church, but still, there's life there. And there's life. God's brought this man there. He's a younger guy, too. I like that.
Pastor Noah Lacorcier. Did I say the name right? Come right up on that mic. Put it on your chin.
Okay.
So Pastor Noah, Your gut response when you hear the question, why do churches die? What hits your heart? My gut resp Responses. My gut response is Churches die because they don't truly believe that they are justified only through putting their faith in Jesus Christ. I think a lot of people, a lot of Christians do believe.
that they are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. But to be justified, to be made right, to be made righteous That happens by faith in Jesus Christ, too. Faith is sanctifying, and And so I think a lot of the reason why a lot of churches are declining is simply because they are not continually believing. that they are going to be made right and righteous, right in the sight of God and righteous, just by simply putting their faith in Jesus. And so because of this disbelief, They're actually cultivating a culture that is anti gospel.
they might declare the gospel to be true. But they're not actually making it feel as though it is true. Wow. Because there's shaming, belittling, berating, and all that stuff that occurs. And so they say in one breath, you are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
But through their actions. by the way that they conduct themselves, the gospel does not feel. Like it is true. And so it's actually uh repulsive. To others.
Wow. Yeah. That's heavy. See, he went deep. He just jumped right into the depth of the response.
I'm telling you.
Well, so we want to hear from you what your thoughts are. What about what he said? I mean, going right to that heart of doctrine. Is everything fundamentally. Theologically driven.
You know, what we believe, because what you believe will determine how you behave. You can't divorce that. Toll-free, 866-348-7884. We want to hear from you. We want to hear your thoughts on why churches die, why churches split, why.
Here's another one. Maybe when is it time? To leave a church. There's someone out there listening who you've been sitting in this church. You know, your blessed assurance has been in that pew for way too long, and you haven't gotten really involved.
Maybe you're too comfortable. We want to hear from you. We're also going to ask this pastor what he's done. Because your congregation, Pastor, is very tell us a little bit about Kernersville First Baptist Church. It's very traditional, right?
Going way back. I've seen your stained glass, I've seen that organ, man. Yeah. No, so First Baptist of Kernersville. Excuse me, I got choked up.
Kernersville, North Carolina.
So, listeners in Utah, this is a city that's kind of in the heart of the Triad area, kind of surrounded by High Point, Greensboro, Winston-Salem, which is where the first Truth Network station started, really, AM830. And so, it's a very strategic area in North Carolina, which is one of the fastest-growing states.
So, we have a lot of in-studio guests that we are able to bring in because of your location, you know, your proximity to the station.
So, tell us what you're doing with your church. We got a couple callers on the line, but you jump in.
So, privilege to serve the precious souls of First Baptist of Kernersville. First Baptist of Kernersville was established off a mountain in Kernersville. Mountain Street in Kernersville, about 141 years ago. And so It's been going a while. It's been going a while.
Um I would say that that First Baptist is truly right now A sincerely healthy Church. The reason why I would say that is because of the way that we love one another. Um the vision of Jesus is being realized there currently. Um they really are loving one another as he loves us in a sacrificial, uh, self-effacing way. But I think that that's where we're at now.
But Um We're looking around and we're wondering why everybody is seventy and eighties or eighty years old.
Okay.
So Maybe we love each other really well, but do we love the people in our community really well too?
So that's the question that we're asking right now. And I've only been there nine months. Uh but I can sincerely say that these people really do love each other well. And we're trying to figure out how we're going to love our community well, too. Wow, that's so cool.
So, but I like the fact you're asking questions. I mean, you've come into a church, instead of saying, Hey, there's a new sheriff down now, here's your marching orders. You're asking, and you're doing some prayer stuff that's real important. Like, what does the boss want? Maybe that's kind of important in this whole formula, this whole process.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think Jesus made his vision for his church really clear: love one another as I have loved you. He basically taught his disciples how to love. That's what it's all about, and that's what we want to see realized at First Baptist II. But it's all about his will being done and not ours.
Okay, and so we have to be in a posture of submission. Unto him, saying, God, what do you want? We've tried to do what we want to do. And we've turned this thing into a social club, and it's dying, and it's only appealing to people that have a common affinity or shared preferences to us. And so what is it that you want us to do to communicate and relate this Gospel.
We declare the gospel, but hey, what do we do to relate the gospel to to make it feel true?
Okay, I want to grab a quick call before the break. 866-348-7884. If you're hearing us live and you want to phone in and tell us why churches die. and what is happening maybe by way of testimony. And then, of course, the second half of that question would be: how do we bring him back to life?
And that hits your first answer out of the gate. I mean, you just jumped right to the final chapter in a beautiful way, though. It was very good. Jamal is our next caller. Jamal, are you, Jamal?
You're on Truth Talk Life. Jump in here, sir. What say you? Why did churches die?
Well, as usual, thank you for taking my call and great topic. One of the reasons why I think churches die is because they're not equipping their congregation. As has been said before, by is that the music? That's the music, but can you hang on with us for a couple minutes? Yeah, and we'll take some more calls.
I have a truth on the streets. I actually bumped into some people at a coffee shop today that have some pretty strong opinions about this. You'll want to hear that. And, friends, this is a good day to talk about this because God's doing something through his church. Why do churches die?
How do we bring it back? When we come back on Truth Talk Live, don't touch that dial. Truth Talk Live. Can you call it? I guess if you're coming forward.
So, why do you think churches die? I think churches die when political views get in the way of the actual message of Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ has nothing to do with political views one way or the other when we should all just be loving each other equally.
So when political views get in the way, it becomes messy. And that's why churches die. Wow. Okay, so that is interesting. I just, that was a young lady at a coffee shop, and I asked her that question along with several others.
That's called Truth on the Streets, and we'll bring in some more. Pastor Noah is with me. He pastors a Baptist church in the North Carolina area. And he is, I did not want to take on this topic alone.
So he has been, and he's a big fella, too.
So I feel a little safer in here. Grayson, we got full coverage in here, don't we, bud? And our awesome ace producer Grayson's in there. If you want to take a stab at this question, maybe you have a testimony. Maybe you're a pastor.
Maybe you've seen a church go 600, like just die, which is a horrible thing. We're not celebrating that at all. We're bemoaning that. We're decrying that here. But we want to see what God wants to see.
So, if you are truly a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, you should be pulling for the church, right, Noah? Right. Right, right, right. You should be raw, raw, let's go. This is the church triumphant, the church militant.
And so, this isn't a political stage, this isn't a political forum. But then again, you know, sanctity of life, you know, Psalm 139. Sure. Those are very Christian issues that need to be preached, but we don't need to turn the church into a political rally. And that happens on the left and the right.
You know, it does for sure. And so she felt like that could lead to. Uh a decrepit You know, sudden or slow death in the church. That young lady, apparently, you know, maybe she's been burned or something. I didn't probe.
Yeah. But some church hurt there, probably. Yeah. But, but, but that's the thing: like, is the word being preached? Philippians 4, Paul says, preach politics.
No, he said, preach the word. Yeah. Which I think uh I think that what is synonymous with the word is the gospel. The gospel. Yeah.
Amen. It comes out of the word. Like it's the word. It's the whole theme is that Jesus is the hero of the whole thing. Yeah.
And so when you see Paul use, you know, that word, the word, he is referring to the gospel of the kingdom. And so a lot of churches that preach politics Are actually preaching moral codes.
Okay, so you know, these churches that lean to the right, they're preaching. You know, fundamentalist. Uh fundamentalistic. Uh Morality And what they're trying to do is they are trying to cause their congregants to align with this certain moral code. But what is that?
That is instilling in them deeply Self-righteousness. Wow. Which is antithetical and contradictory to the gospel of the kingdom, that you are only. Made right and righteous in the sight of God through faith in Jesus Christ. Which goes back to the gospel.
Right. And how I want to say the righteous live by faith. In other words, those that are faithful are righteous. I am not righteous in and of myself. My faith is in Christ's righteousness as my own.
I am justified. I am made right in the sight of God. I am righteous by putting my faith in Christ alone. Not my faith in a political party that aligns with my moral values. like the r th those on the right would say.
Right. Or those on the left that push this ethic of love so hard. Right. And they push this Pride Month stuff, and they've gone way off the rails. Yeah.
But those churches are dying. And it's like, what do we believe? What are we here for? Essentially, both those on the right and those on the left are basically teaching the same thing. Interesting.
You can You can Overcome, What's wrong? On your own.
Okay, now we're going to go back to Jamal. We got another caller in. If you want to weigh in on why churches die. And then, of course, the flip side: how to bring him back. That's very important.
I want to make it very clear. We've said it on this forum many times that. There will be Here's a nightmare. Here's the devil's greatest dream and the Lord's or the church's worst nightmare. that our pews would be full of people who never cursed, Never cheated on their wives.
Voted for the right biblical issues, okay. And Worked hard, earned a lot of money, gave a lot of money, but they are on their way to hell because they have everything on the outside, but their heart's never been transformed by Jesus. Right. So, you have that person needs the gospel just as much as this far-left, tree-hugging person that's way outside of God that's worshiping the earth. We all need the gospel.
Both ways are godless ways of living. That's what I was getting at. Yeah, so you have that extreme.
So, I want to hear from you. Maybe you disagree. 866-348-7884. Maybe someone's out there who's like, hey, we got to have more moral people. We got to preach more moralisms.
We got to get more people to vote. And I'm not, again, denouncing voting and whatnot, but like at some point, when is the gospel center? Right. And it's because it hasn't been, is that at the heart of? Why there's this grand debt.
Now my phone's burning up. I got people texting me. Stop paying pastors so much money. Require churches to be debt-free.
Okay.
Where's that coming from? Yeah, yeah. He didn't call in. He texted me because I've got a pastor in the studio. Hey, we want to cut your page so we can be debt-free.
That would be pastor-free as well. I mean, for Pete's sake, but you know, but we'll talk about pastors too. If you want, 866-348-7884. I'm Stu Epperson. This is Truth Talk Live.
We're going to go back to Jamal. Jamal, you're so gracious to hang through the break, sir. Jump in here with your comment, your thoughts, real quick. Yes, sir. I try to be quick considering we have other callers calling in.
So to pass to Noah's point, Um What is our moral standard? As Matt Slick on Truth Network has said. What is your more definition of what is good.
So you can have two terrorists that give each other weapons and bombs, and they will say that, that is good because they're furthering their cause.
So what is the moral standard of what good is? You can't have any kind of moral standard outside of the Bible. be as you said yourself, dude, people say, well, you know, love is love and if I love another person, if I even young love a young person that's below the lethal limit, Who's to say that's wrong? They have child marriages in Islam. That's part of the subculture over there.
So, who's to say what is wrong and what is right? You have to find something that is what's right in the Bible. No, it's such a great yeah, yeah, and I think to yeah, to his point, Pastor Noah, I mean That's where going back to the word will answer so many of these questions. Right. You know, so we can pick a hot topic every week and preach that fine.
But if it's not grounded in scripture, just teaching through the Bible, like you're doing, you're teaching through the books of the Bible. I think your church is teaching through Psalms right now. You're going to encounter and uncover All of these things, really. If you don't see the sanctity of life in every page of scripture, if you don't see what God's design is for marriage, one man, one woman, in every page of scripture. Yeah.
And so you got to have that. And, you know, in the Reformation, they started reading the book again. Yeah. And everything changed. Yeah.
Yeah, no, I think, you know, the the scripture makes it plain what is right and what is wrong. But the question is not necessarily biblically what is right or what is wrong. We've got it in black and white. We have it In our scriptures, what is right and what is wrong. The question is.
Is how can we have hearts that want to do what is right and not want to do what is wrong? And so you read the scriptures and you're like, what is God talking about? Us needing to have a new heart and a new spirit. through his prophets, through Jeremiah, Through Zachariah. What is God talking about?
God is talking about us not just aligning our lives with a moral code. He is talking about us having hearts that want to obey him. And that's where you yeah, 4.12 of Hebrews. God's word is quick and powerful, sharpen the two-edged sword.
So it's the kind of preaching that takes God's word, lets it be the tool, the weapon. But Jamal, do you understand that? Like it's it's it yeah, of course we lift up what is right. In righteousness, exalts a nation, and all that. But at the heart of that is how do hearts change?
Right. Because we can pose on the outside. But is my heart really changed on the inside? Right. Yeah, and I'll make this last point.
I'll get off the phone. As Steve Noble said, once you get right biblically, you can get right politically as well. Everything else falls into place. Yeah. What affects every part of your life.
And we got Greg hanging on. We got Gene, Sally. Don't go anywhere, gang. We'll be right back on Truth Talk Live. If you want to grab a truth line, you can at 866-348-7884.
I'm Stu Everson. Why did churches die and how do we bring the church back? There's some great stories of revival in the church today all over the world. We'll talk about that when we come back. Don't touch that dial.
Lay the bike down. He's the executive said.
So he showed the way. Sir, sir, let me ask you real quick. Why do you think churches die?
Well, I think churches are dying because we have too much focus inward rather than outward and the Great Commission was always an outward approach. First through Jerusalem and then to the other most parts of the world. Yeah. Okay, you heard it right there. Maybe you would agree and concur.
With some of the things that callers are saying, that some of the truth on the streets. I just asked this fellow at a coffee shop earlier. I've got a pastor in the house with me talking about it. It's even more lively. We should be, Pastor No, we should be like recording our off-air conversations even more lively during that.
This guy's wearing me out with some good stuff. He's got his Bible open. He's a pastor of a church in North Carolina. His passion is the glory of God. We have someone on the line.
I got a line open, a truth line. If you want to call in and weigh in on why you think churches die, toll-free 866-34TRUTH. That's 866-348-7-884. And then, how do we bring the church back? This is God's plan A.
This is not attack the church all hour, pick on the church, pick on the pastors. No, listen, I prayed with a pastor this morning. I was at my church, and one of the associates was walking in. I said, I'm gonna just give him a little hug. He said, I love you guys, thanks for what you're doing.
I did a prayer for him. And got them right back in. I know they're busy.
So we got a pastor here. We need to love on them. I love Andy Bauer Sock's Ministry, Energize Ministries. Pray for your pastor, encourage your pastor.
So, this is God's plan A. We need to get behind and support. Pastors are craving others to jump involved. Use your gifts. You know, you're equipping the saints, Ephesians 4:12.
But In the midst of all this, there are churches, they've lost sight. They've lost their moorings and they've died. And so I'm asking that question generally for you to call in and share some things and maybe practical, maybe testimonies. Why do churches? Die.
866-348-6. 7884. We got Greg on the line. Greg, you are next up in the hot seat, my friend. Thanks for calling in.
Yes, sir. Stu. I wanted to answer both sides of that question. If I could, at least offer my best. Jump on in, yes, sir.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, what separates from God is sin. And the church is dying by separation from God. He is our constant life source, the flow of the Holy Spirit. We can have the doctrine of the Holy Spirit without the flow and the presence.
And so sin in brief sin. Sin in any form separates from the Holy God, and then repentance and humility. In any form, restores the union. But specifically, about the mid-20th century, A.W. Tozer wrote and talked about this a lot.
The church began to move into a compromised position. And, you know, we began to teach a gospel that was not sinner-friendly yet, but it was heading that way. And we began to alter the gospel so it was a crossless Christianity. Jesus dies on the cross, but we don't have to carry a cross. That's not true.
Kind of like this, your best life now, kind of like, you know, kind of a man-centered. Very interesting. Yeah. We marketed the positive, from the human viewpoint, the positive viewpoints and neglected what, from the human viewpoint, looks negative. Of course, the cross is not negative.
It's the most positive thing in the world. When we carry our cross, that's when we get close to God. And so, also, idolatry. The parallels to Israel and the church are stark. They're clear.
They're powerful. Why did God leave Israel? Why did Ezekiel see the glory lift up? Idolatry. Why does he leave our churches?
Idolatry. Because the majority of the people in the church, if they have I before the deity. That's what idolatry. Let me stop you there. Pastor Noah.
Yeah. The idolatry, you know, Calvin said that our hearts are idol factories. You know, I probably messed up that quote. But stay with me, Pastor Greg, because I know you have a couple other things on how to bring it back. But let me ask Noah, this idolatry thing, it could swing.
A pretty broad stroke, can't it? Right. That could kill a church real quick. And I mean, there are some good things. Yeah.
That yeah, but they're not God things. They're not central to the gospel. But speak to that real quick, and then we'll let our caller. Oh, there are golden cows in a lot of churches out there, which basically Right now, in this day and age, there are those golden cows that basically are there because people say, I cannot worship if. This is not happening or that is not there.
That is idolatrous.
So there is preferential idolatry. I can worship if and only if this is the way that I worship. You're not worshiping him then, you're worshiping the means then. I can worship if and only if I can sing traditional songs. You're not worshiping a hymn through those songs, you're worshiping the nostalgic feelings you get from singing those songs.
Oh, absolutely.
So the idolatry of. Preference is huge within the church of the West and the great us of A, where we think church is to be done in our way. It's so much about my experience. It's so much about the light and the smoke. It's so much about me, me leaving feeling so good about myself, as opposed to coming and saying, Hey, how can I serve?
How can I say hello to someone in the lobby I've never seen before? Rather than saying, I am right in the sight of God because I have received Christ's righteousness as my own, and I raise my hands. Mm. Because of that truth, because that is a reality in my heart and mind, rather than that, we say, I can only worship if the songs are done in the way that I want them to be done, and the songs that I want done are done. That's not worship.
Our preferences are our idols.
Now, I know Greg's, he said, he set us up earlier. He said, by the way, I loved his first answer. Do you notice the first thing he said? It's so simple. He said, sin.
Okay, show's over. I mean, that's true, but thankfully, we're going broader, you know, broader than that. But that is true, I mean, of all of this. And the enemy wants that sin to take a stronghold in his church. Right.
In the people.
Now, Greg, so how do you, how do you think we get it back? Give us a quick, your quick call because I know that it sounds like you're probably. I'm based on it with Ezekiel. Oh, my. A new spirit.
Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, and I'm sorry, you say that. What did you say, Noah? I said you touched on it when you were talking about Ezekiel. We need a new spirit, a new heart, new life, new breath.
We need the Holy Spirit of God to come in. Absolutely. And God cannot bless a dunk heap. He cannot bless, he cannot put his blood on the sin of undepented sinners. And so here, what we have is that idolatry can take lots of forms, but one form that's really been persistent is the desire to have the world's approval.
The church, the primitive church, had God's approval only. I mean, only. They didn't have the Jews' approval. They didn't have Rome's approval. And so they suffered for it.
But they had the power of God because of that. That's what brought his life in power.
So that is what's going to restore our life and power, is the desire to have God's approval first and in a sense only. We'll have will command the respect of the world in a sense, even though they won't join us at times. But God will love us and He will restore His presence and His flow of life from the Holy Spirit. The experience of the church parallels the experience of the individual Christian. If I sin and do not confess immediately and get lying, my life flow is cut off.
I'm not lost. I'm not lost, but my fellowship is spoiled. Wow. I don't blast about the Holy Spirit. We interesting you say all that.
Pa Pastor Noah and I had we had met previous to this show to kind of talk about these similar things in a mutual book that we both Appreciate that, I think everyone should read, every pastor and every church, is called The Nine Marks of a Healthy Church. And effectively, one of the premises that Mark Dever makes in that book, one of the kind of axiomatic truths in there, is that is the church becoming more like the world? Or is the church With salt and light impacting the world? Is the church, Pastor? You talked about doing a love walk, I think, recently.
Didn't your church do like a love walk just around prayer around your neighborhood? Yeah, I mean, that's where you live. And good for you for taking your people out.
So it sounds like we're tracking. Greg, I really appreciate your call, man. Yeah, Greg, thank you. I think what Greg just touched on is huge. I think that that Greg touched on Um Needing the approval of the world.
But the underlying question is, in my mind, What earns approval? The Christian Believes That I am approved of because of my faith in Jesus Christ. I have come to that place where I have realized there is nothing I can do. Nothing I can do or no way that I can perform to earn the approval of God. I believe by faith that Christ has perfectly performed on my behalf.
Live the righteous life on my behalf, and And my faith is not in my righteousness or my performance to earn the approval of God. The only way. The only way That I can be righteous in the sight of God is for Christ's righteousness to be attributed to me. I receive that by faith. That is the differentiating factor between the church.
And the world. I cannot earn approval. I receive approval by faith. I need Christ's righteousness to be my own, his holiness to be my own, his perfection. To be my own, the approval that he received from the father to be my own, I receive that by faith.
That's. Completely. Counterintuitive within our world. Right. In the world of provenance.
That's right. It's a performance track. Through your performance. Performance treadmill. It's earning our way.
And that is the way of the world. Interesting. So, how have you seen a church die in your own experience? How have you seen God bring back a church? How have you seen a life come back?
Perhaps A church that's preaching the gospel that our friend here, our guest, Pastor Noah. is strongly advocating. Mm. Is there hope for the church? Right.
A church that really is anchored in that. If you want to call in, we'd love to hear from you. I got a line open at 8, I got a couple lines open at 86634 TRUTH, 866-348-7884. Shout out to our friends listening on 91.7 FM in Jacksonville, 91.3 Brunswick, Florida, North Florida, and 91.9 St. Augustine, Florida.
Great. Truth Talk Live affiliates there, not to mention 106.5 FM, all the way into Indiana, all across Toledo, Toledo, and Salt Lake City, Utah, 95.3 FM. Hello, Provo. Thank you for listening. How have you seen the church die?
Why do churches die? And what's it take to bring back the church? 86634 TRUTH. 866348-7884. I want to be a little more prescriptive or solutions-focused in the final segment, Pastor Noah.
I want to ask you. What are things that Listeners need to be cautious about when they're looking at churches. A lot of folks call us and say, hey, what's a good church in your area? We were just talking to a couple. At a coffee shop recently, like, hey, what's a good church to check out?
What are some important things to look at, Pastor, just real quick, as you're Because you're a big C church guy. I mean, you'll tell someone to go to another church, not even your own. Even though obviously you want everyone to come. But what should be a couple very important doctrinal things, cultural things? Yeah.
Well, I think just to kind of align my response with this topic, is you want to go to a gospel preaching, gospel declaring church where they declare the gospel. But you also want to go to a church where they don't just declare the gospel, they make it feel like it's true. Like you are blameless and shameless in the sight of God because you put your faith in Jesus' righteousness as your own. I love that.
So, you don't just declare the gospel to be true, you make it feel true. We got to take a break. That's a great question. Does your church live out the gospel that they proclaim? Whoa, is orthodoxy orthopraxy in your church?
We'll be back on Truth Talk Live right after this. Hang on.
So, why did church why did churches die, young man? Why did churches die?
Well, churches died because You don't have an influx of younger people coming in to bring life into the church so that they can actually evangelize outward. A lot of times churches get so comfortable with no change and they get stagnant and so a lot of the younger people just start to leave and they become spiritually stagnant and then you just have a bunch of old people in a church that are just ready to die rather than actually evangelize outward.
Okay, wow. Out of the mouth of babes, a young man who just I put put him on the spot. At the coffee shop, and Pastor Noah, you met this young man. He was there with us, and they just were very gracious, and they were believers, but they had opinions about this, and you may have one too. I'm Stu Everson.
This is Truth Talk Live all hour long. We've had some great calls. from some some wise folks and Glad for an adversarial call. Maybe you've been, you know, maybe you're like. You know, a friend of mine, I'm trying to get him to come back to church.
But he's kind of mad at the church. Mm. What about the old saying, hey, I don't want to go to that church because it's full of hypocrites. But then Pastor Noah off the air said, Come on, you'll fit right in. No, you didn't say that.
Did I put words in your mouth? No, you did. But what about?
So, so it. There's a bumper sticker. that says That's spelled C H R C H Hmm. And then after it says Where's the U? Yeah.
What's missing? You are. You are. I just messed the whole thing up. But you know my heart, right?
Yeah. And so Go to church. Get plugged in. Go to make disciples. Go to be discipled.
Go to support. Go to be under the teaching of God's word. Joe called, we got a caller that couldn't get on the ear. But listen to what he said. I mean, this is a shot over the bow.
I think you probably would agree with this, Pastor Noah, who's our guest today. Pastor's a church in the Kernersville area of North Carolina. Agree to come on and walk through this landmine with me this hour.
So I wouldn't be the only guy in here taking the heat. This is what Joe said. He says, churches fall because the flock is not fed truth. They are fed preference and legalism, or the pastor is teaching service and not digging into truth. I mean, that's one thing.
A pastor could open the Bible, read a scripture, and then just go on and tell us a bunch of stories. You got your comedian pastor, you got your TED Talk pastor, you got your motivational speaker pastor, you got all these waxing, eloquent guys. But who is really studying the word, teaching the word, and exalting Jesus in the word? Pointing people to the Redeemer, to justification by faith alone through Christ alone, to the glory of God alone, like you talked about earlier in the show. We're going to come back to that.
I'm going to give you the last word because I want everyone to hear this. It's worth repeating because it's the benchmark truth. of what Jesus has done for us and not so much all that we're doing for him. But we will live out what he has built into us. Sanctification is simply justification lived out by the power of the Holy Spirit.
So we got a caller from Ohio calling in, and we do have time for maybe one more caller after Mike. And if you're able to grab a truth line, the numbers 86634 TRUTH all hour long. We're talking about Why do churches die? How do we bring him back?
Now we have had one caller, Greg, who gave us he answered both sides pretty eloquently. He even dipped into Ezekiel a little bit, as we heard.
So let's go to Mike real quick. Mike, you're on the air with Stu. Welcome to Truth Talk Live, sir.
Well, thank you for taking my call. Real quickly, I agree with what you've been saying all along. I think this whole hour is perfect. But I I think I'd I think we would should miss we're missing one point. I think we also need to preach and teach That we need a relationship with God.
Amen. This is a one on one relationship. Not when you just come to church and sit in the pew. Yeah, he's there. But no, everyday relationships do.
You've taught me that when You know, and uh And every day seeking after him finding his will, living a godly life, Okay guy, what do you have for me today? What do you have for me today? And where do you want me to go? And how do you want me to tell someone about God? Yeah, speak to what he said.
Mike, hang on. Pastor Noah. You know, we talk about Christianity is relationship, not religion. But in this foundation, in this paradigm of Being gospel-centered, being focused on Jesus' work, being focused on not so much doing for Him, but being with Him. Can you talk about what is important about a church?
Extolling a relationship with Jesus. Like, this is a foundational. Reformation Pillar but goes Way farther back than that. I mean, don't give the Reformation credit for all this. This was here before, it's in the word, the priesthood of the believer.
Talk about how important that is, to per Mike's point here, right? Um.
So Per Mike's Point. This Christian thing, this Christianity thing, is all about having a relationship with God. But I think the question that we need to ask ourselves is: how does God relate to us? He extends His love, His mercy, and His grace to us. When we realize that.
That He extends His grace to us. When we realize that he knows everything about us. Everything. And yet, he still is a God who relates in a way where he extends grace. How then are we going to respond?
Gratefully, joyfully, gleefully. You know me. You see me to the bottoms, and you still love me to the skies. You know everything about me. And you have not shunned me?
But you've invited me into a relationship of love and grace and mercy? When you realize that, you're getting the gospel. You're getting that There is nothing you can do. To earn the approval of God through your performance, you've already screwed up. But all that you have to do is By faith, believe that He is a loving, gracious, merciful God that says you're made right in my sight just by putting your faith in me as such of a God, as such a God.
as a God who is loving, gracious, and merciful and kind. That is the way that God relates to us, and then the way that we relate to Him is by faith believing that He does relate in such a way.
So our faith is response. to what he has done. Right. And our our preaching Our pulpits Should be ablaze and exalting and amplifying the work of Jesus Christ. As we proclaim the word of Christ.
So Mike, the goal of your pastor isn't to be liked by you. Isn't to entertain you, isn't to make you feel better. The goal is for him to proclaim this word, the word of God. The word. Nehemiah 8, they brought the book of God out.
These are people who hadn't heard the book in over 150 years. These are people who admit, some of them had never heard it. They stood up. In one accord. as one man Probably 50,000 of them.
They had to build a wooden platform for Ezra to get on and stand on with about 13 Bible teachers, scribes, leaders with him. And it says they made sense of the Word of God. And so, what the Word of God does is it points us to the Work of God through the Son of God. Who makes us righteous by his perfect work?
So you don't want to leave church.
So many.
Well-meaning, okay, pastors. And thank God they're having church, and thank God they are touching the gospel. But so many are saying: here's five points. To a better life. You know, here's four or five key, you know, but just let the Word of God make the points.
They're all right there. Right. And maybe make your points, you know. Come out of the word as opposed to here's a point, now here's five verses to back it up. And that's the kind of because it's about the performance of Jesus and not about Mike.
Does any of that make sense, buddy? Why don't you react real quick? I do. It totally makes sense. What Christ did for us gives us the joy.
The joy of the Lord is our strength. It gives us our joy. It gives us our zeal. Motivation. It gives us our motivation to live tomorrow.
Yeah. So because he's there. And then now, because I'm joyful, I'm happy about what Christ's done for me. I'm willing to go out and tell someone about it. I'm willing to live a Christian life.
I'm willing to stop sinning. I'm willing to do what God wants me to do. But it's from a heart. The heart's changed. The life has changed.
Yeah. And so that's what, yeah.
So that's what biblical expository preaching should generate in the hearers. It should generate a heart that responds. My heart has changed. Because I love God. My desires have changed.
My desires have become his desires. And now I want to do what he wants me to do. But a lot of times we teach the inverse within the church. To live the Christian life, you have to behave in a certain way. Way to change your desires to change your heart, but it never works.
We need a new heart. I live for Jesus, not for his approval. I live for Jesus from His approval. Our team is one. God bless you, Mike.
We got to wrap up. I'm going to give Pastor the last word. Pastor, just take us back into the gospel. I think this was kind of your thesis this whole hour, and I've taken us off that to get other folks involved and to talk about some other real things from money to politics, other things that have taken churches down that death row, sadly. But God's heart for the church, it's plan A.
Christ is a sinner. Talk about the importance of getting this right at the foundation. Challenge our pastors out there. Pour a little love into them right now as we get out of here.
Well, I would say that this is not a new problem. We look at uh Galatians 2. And we see that Paul opposed Peter to his face, and what did he say? He did not say, get your act together, Peter. Try to do better, Peter.
He said, You're out of line with the gospel. And then in Galatians, Paul is not just opposing Peter to his face, but he's saying to the church in Galatia. Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law? Or by believing what you heard, are you so foolish? After beginning by the Spirit, you are finishing by the flesh, you cannot overcome your sin.
Jesus is the one who overcame. Put your faith in him. Amen. Right? In this world, you will have trouble, but take heart.
I have overcome the world. Put your faith in him as the one that has overcome for you. And he's with you in the fire right now.
