Saving The Children

This is the Truth Network. Welcome to Truth Talk Live. All right. Let's talk the truth. I can't hide it.

A daily program powered by the Truth Network. This is kind of a great thing, and I'll tell you why. Where pop culture, current events, and theology all come together. Speak your mind. And now, here's today's Truth Talk Live host: Is Abortion Murder?

Is abortion murder 86634 truth 866348. 7884. This is known as Pro-Life Month. There will be a march on Washington, D.C. And today I'm going to be discussing that issue with Rebecca Haney.

But I've got Psalm 39, verse 13. For thou hast possessed my reins, thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Marvelous are thy works, and that my soul Knoweth right well. And I believe, Rebecca, that the Bible teaches us to be pro-life.

How about you? Amen. Amen. Shall we close in prayer? Amen.

Yeah, there you go, right? It really does.

So, whatever God's word has to say, that's how the people of God should be operating. And I really don't know that no matter who expresses their opinion, how strongly, really, God is the author of life. He's the author of every single one of us. He's the reason that by his grace we're able to have this conversation today. And what he says matters most.

It does. And there was just a shooting. There was a woman who was shot by an ICE agent in Minneapolis, Minnesota. And it has been all over the news, and it was a big deal. But And it's terrible that somebody lost their life.

And we're not going to talk about who's to blame or whatever. We'll let everything else kind of play itself out. I know what I believe, and I'm sure Rebecca, you and I probably are on the same page with that. But at the same time, since Roe versus Wade in 1973, from what I've seen, there have been over 60 million. baby, sixty million human beings that have been murdered in the womb.

Is that right? That we know of. I mean, and there have been countless other lives that have been affected, both their mothers, their fathers, their whole families, whole family trees. Are being destroyed by this burden of our generation. I think the question that you began the hour with is the critical one for our time.

And I think. every individual, Christian especially, is going to have to give account to God for how we handled this major human rights abuse that we're seeing go on and even tolerating in our nation. Yeah, and Rebecca, you grew up as a pastor's daughter, a PK. You traveled around small towns in the West, and your parents actually explained to you at a very young age that abortion is wrong. Is that right?

Sure.

Well, I think it's easiest for kids to understand because we haven't had enough deprogramming yet. And I mean, anyone instinctively knows. And kids will just be honest about it, that when we see a mama with a baby in her belly, that's exactly what it is. There's no ifs, stands, or buts about it. And like Dr.

Seuss said, a person's a person no matter how small. It's only when we grow a little older and we start hearing some of the PR for the pro-abortion side, some of the like political arguments and political expediency is another big one, that we start to believe anything different. And frankly, that's just a lie. We understand God's truth. My parents were very honest with me in age-appropriate ways about the beauty of life, about how each person is uniquely created in the image of God.

And that therefore to destroy that, to denigrate that, is that's a sin, but it's a sin because it's going against the very nature of God, the very author of life.

So to me, It's pretty easy to understand. And it's kind of like you have to go to college to get re-educated or to come up with ideas that are so silly that a human being would be anything other than human from the very beginning of our lives. Yeah. And you went to Drake University. I believe you said it had a really good journalism school, but you really became an activist and you got into the radio and pro-life movement.

Was it in college or? Yeah, within in college, yeah. I've always had that conviction and that fire, but it was. I was able to start a radio show that focused on what it means to live out our pro-life. And that's, I would say, a lot bigger question than just the issue of abortion.

Obviously, that's key, but it has to do with how we treat one another, how we treat people who are disabled, how we treat those at the end of their lives. It's questions of how we provide adoptive parents to orphans. How we care for widows and orphans, which is, of course, a huge Christian mandate.

So it all hinges on how we see. Our neighbors, how we treat our fellow human beings? Do we see them as just randomly evolved, you know, chemical vats from this close to monkeys that have no purpose and no soul? Or do we see one another as uniquely knitted together, never to be repeated, eternal beings made in the image of an almighty, all-loving Father God? Depending on how you answer that question, everything else in your life will flow from there.

Yeah, and you've you've actually had, you've never had an abortion yourself, but you had a baby son named Gabriel. Is that right? Nice. Yep, sure did. And he is a huge part of our story.

It's something that, I mean, I feel like we're friends now, so I can just open up. But the. truth of human life is so precious. And anyone who has had a premature birth. knows the truth of humanity in the womb.

And that was the case for us with Gabriel. He was delivered early. It was an emergency situation. He was at twenty six weeks. And we lived basically lived in the NICU while they treated him.

He had an illness that they could not identify. And the doctors worked day and night with him. We got to love him and care for him in the NICU for five weeks. And after that point, you know, of course, we're praying and praying for healing. And God's people show up in a mighty way, by the way.

We've seen so much of God's love through his people in that season of our lives. But ultimately, God took Gabriel home. And so he's waiting on the other side of heaven for us. Um eternity is real. It was not the outcome I was hoping for.

I wanted to take him home and love him for years and years and years. But as God was writing that portion of our story, It becomes ever clearer to me the humanity, how anyone could ever deny the humanity of their child in the womb when there are pregnant mamas. At that same stage of life, that are being told if they want to. They can legally end the life of their child really for any reason whatsoever. And that is It's unconscionable to me, but it's also extremely illogical.

And I think anyone that puts up Like you can put up a picture of a child outside the womb. at the twenty-one, twenty-two weeks Even earlier now, and through miraculous medical technology, and our doctors and nurses perform wonders every day to keep those children alive in one room of the hospital. And in another room, the same another mother with a baby of the same gestational age and a different desire. Mean that means that her child would be actively killed. That they would refuse to save that child's life and even more end that child's life.

And those two things really can't occupy the same logical space at the same time. I think everyone in our culture knows that, but there's been a concerted effort to muddy the waters and to outright lie to women. And it's all at the service of this radical autonomy, which really is saying anything other than what God says about who we are. We try to replace the truth of how God made us. and instead put ourselves or our wants Or our desires, our needs on the throne, it's almost like the gospel flipped upside down.

It is in Genesis 1.27 it says, So God created man in his own image. In the image of God, he created him. Male and female, he created them. And no wonder that the devil would want these unborn children dead. Right.

They are the God's most beautiful gift. And he created life, so the devil seeks to destroy life and to wound us and destroy us at our most vulnerable.

So that's why the church needs to speak up. It does, and we will be right back after this break. If you've got any questions, 866-34-TRUTH, 866-348-7884, and we have some real stories of people who have been through some stuff and come out on the other end. We'll be right back after these messages. Truth taught All right, this is Michael Zwick.

We've got Rebecca Haney back on the line. And Rebecca, you actually are on the radio yourself right now, is that right? Yes, by the grace of God and everyone's good humor. Anyone who wants to listen.

Okay, so how would they listen if they wanted to check you out?

Well, I do a podcast called Faith Works Live.

So, you can find us on basically any podcast platform and also the social.

So, if you follow us on your Facebook. Or a social media platform of choice, YouTube, et cetera. Faith Works Live, because we all know Faith Without Works is dead, and we show our faith by our works. Faith Works Live. And then I have a weekend show called Faith Works Weekend.

And that is on Faith Radio Network.

So excited to be a part of their great ministry. And you can find them at myfaithradio.com. And you can find a station near you. That's awesome. And we've been talking about abortion.

We've been talking about the truth of God's word and what the Bible actually has to say about abortion. And the Bible is not silent on this issue. Are there some Bible verses that come to your mind when you think about this subject?

Well, I think you mentioned one of the most beautiful and poetic ones right at the beginning, which is Psalm 139. When we think about God creating our inmost being is what one version says, that he knit us together in our mother's womb. I think that's incredibly powerful. But it's more than just poetry. It's actually biology.

If you look at embryology and now, obviously with the technology we have, we can see the exact moment of conception. There are sparks, like electrical sparks. that uh happen when for me when that new When that new life comes into being, that moment of conception, we see a new being is formed. Cells begin to multiply and replicate. That is a new human being with a new genetic code that is distinctly different from either parent.

And I mean, everything about who you are begins there.

So God's word reflects God's creation. I also think one of the best stories. that I think of is we've just celebrated here recently the birth of Christ. And one of really, what we see, the first human to recognize Jesus come to earth is a pre-born child, his own cousin, John the Baptist, who was about six months, who wasn't born yet. He was six months long in his mother's womb, and Elizabeth feels him jump for joy in his womb.

That is scripture. That's the reality that she knew and recognized the unborn Lord because two unborn babies recognize one another. That's miraculous. It it was, and it was in the womb, and and you know of a woman named Claire Caldwell, is that right? Yes, Claire's got an amazing story.

She is what's called an abortion survivor.

Now, just to clarify, there are women who have had abortions that regret them, and yes, Before we go any further, let me clarify that you can receive forgiveness through Christ for abortion. It is certainly sin. And you ask the question: is it murder? I'm on record as yes. But just like any other sin, the blood of Christ can cleanse those sins when we come to Christ forgiveness.

That being said, Claire's story is actually that she was the baby in the womb that was targeted for abortion. That she survived the abortion process, that I would say God protected her. Um, and she was actually one of a set of twins. And the doctors performed a, I believe, a DNE, it was a late-term abortion procedure. And her twin died, but she actually survived that abortion procedure.

And she was born with significant health problems. She had to wear casts on her feet, tiny little casts on her hips. To correct the attempt on her life. It was an assault on her life at her most vulnerable. And praise God, she survived.

She is now a happy and healthy wife and mom. She will speak about her experience. But she met her, she was adopted, and then later learned this part of her story. She met her birth mother and she said she wanted to thank her for choosing life for her. And in that moment, her birth mother broke down and said, Claire, I didn't choose life for you.

Actually, I tried to end your life through abortion. And there's a beautiful story of God's restoration in the middle of all that. Claire has written a book and she tells her story very well, but she mourns the twin that she lost. She, you know, through her life story, we see the humanity. It's undeniable, right?

We're talking about real human people. but also we are targeting the most vulnerable for active destruction.

So when we're thinking about the question that you raised about the moral and legal and spiritual implications of this act that we have now considered just normal, Or even yet a sign of woman's rights or autonomy or anything like that. We have to recognize that abortion is intentionally destroying life, and the question is, what kind of life? Is it is the preborn child a human being? And if they are human, then why don't they deserve human rights? I think it all hinges on that.

It does in Isaiah 44, 24 says, Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb.

So he did form you from the womb. And I've been out to the abortion clinics and I've prayed outside of there and I've prayed against the spirit of abortion that is behind that. Are you familiar at all with Molech? Yes, I mean, I've gone to the left in my Bible and have seen that no one who worships Molech ever does anything good. The most heinous activities Are done in the name of false gods, are done in the name of really demons who deceive.

And unfortunately, the nation of Israel fell prey to all of those same lies. And at one point, they, along with all the other idol worshipping cultures at that time, even though they should have known better, um, were sacrificing their own children to false gods. We're taking their vulnerable children and sacrificing them in this blasphemous act of false of worship to a false god. Yeah, and and people say, Well, we would never do that today, but whether you're actively d sacr you think you're sacrificing it to a false god or not, by murdering your baby, you're essentially doing the same thing.

Well, we sacrifice it in the interests of our own desires. or our own future or our own fears. And that's really just the same thing. It's saying we're denying the God of the Bible, the God of reality, the God that made us, and the God that is knitting our own child together. And women are many times lied to, many times pressured, but ultimately told that this is the secret to their freedom.

that they have to purchase their rights, their autonomy at the cost of the blood of their preborn child. Yeah, and many of them are told they're they're told that hey, you won't regret this, right? Right, or that this is the only way. And that it's no big deal. That it's not a baby, that it's just a clump of cells, it's just a medical procedure, it's between you and your doctor.

There's no problem with any of this. We'll just fix it. You'll take a couple pills. You'll move on with your day. No big deal.

No one has to know. But there are women who have regretted this, and you know of a woman named Victoria Robinson, is that right? Oh, Victoria Robinson is awesome. She shares her story. I believe her book is called They Lied to Me or They Lied to Us.

And so she tells the story that within her own words, including her own story of abortion regret. Of being pressured into abortion or just believing that this was the only way. And again, we treat this as normal. We're telling women that this is their only way to attain their dreams or finish college or to have a good life. Or to save this relationship or leave a relationship, and it's So pervasive in our culture.

That And men feel like they either have no voice or that this is their only option as well. They're also impacted by abortion. But then women treat this as normal. They go through this procedure. And it's nothing like what they've been told.

It is damaging to their bodies. It's damaging to their spirits, to their mental health. Women are four to five times more likely, after having an abortion, to suffer depression or anxiety. They are also more likely to have substance abuse issues that kind of go along with the act of trying, I would say, trying to cover up. um and and hide from the shame or just be The healing that really we can only go to God for.

Amen. And when we come back from the break, you know, if you're listening to this and you're sad, there are ways that you can get involved. There are ways that you can help. If you have any questions, 866-348-7884. We will be right back after this break.

All right, we've got Rebecca Haney back on the line. And Rebecca's out of central Iowa. And she told me today, she said, Mike, she said, it's really warm here. It's 39 degrees. And I just started laughing.

Yeah. And it's in the 50s and the 60s here. And we got our lightweight jackets on. But anyway, so we're back from the break. You told me about Victoria Robinson.

You actually know another lady named Toni McFadden. Is that right? Yes, and Toni has written her story, so I feel comfortable sharing it. She speaks very powerfully about being pregnant in high school. And very early on, she and her boyfriend were convinced that they could not be parents.

And so she went into a clinic. And they perform the abortion at that time.

So at that point, it's giving drugs to women, they give two sets of drugs. And they give you one set of pills and then usually tell you to take the other ones at home a little later to complete the death of the child. Although that's not how they couch it, but that is what's happening. And it wasn't until a couple of months later That Tony experienced the true horror and trauma on her body of actually losing her child. And she witnessed what her child looked like.

So at that point, I mean, we would have been. what, maybe 12 weeks or so. And a child at that stage is very small, but is very clearly human. He or she is not just a clump of cells. You can see, I mean, if anyone has seen the movie Unplanned, for example, this was also a big turning point in Abby Johnson's story, who's a well-known pro-life activist and advocate.

And you can see at that stage the humanity of a freeborn child at 12 weeks. Yes, the heart is beating. Yes, you can see hands and feet. Uh and It's undeniable. And that stayed with Tony for a long time.

And she, um Through the course of her story, she tells her testimony of coming to know Christ, of working with pregnancy resource centers, and becoming a life advocate. It's so beautiful, her story, that the same boyfriend that she broke up with over the course of the trauma of this abortion. they get reunited later on in life and eventually they get married and they are faithful Christians and they now have four surviving children that are it's just a beautiful family. And God can write The best stories. He is in charge of all of these stories.

So, I guess you mentioned, Michael, that someone may be listening and probably is that has. abortion as a part of their story or part of their past.

So, I would just love to speak to anyone that this is a part of your story. God is still writing your story. This is not unforgivable. The guilt that you would feel over the sin is a godly guilt because abortion is most definitely destruction of innocent life. But if you're carrying that weight on your soul, Give it to God because that's where it belongs.

The blood of Christ is also for you. Jesus came for you.

So it is not on it is Wrong. But it is not unforgivable either because our God is the mercy of God is greater than all of our sin, but we can't treat it as though it's anything less than what it is, which is. Murder, the intentional taking of innocent human life. It is. And so when we go out to the abortion clinic to pray, they there is actually something there's a sign that somebody holds where it says something about an abortion pill reversal.

And you know of a woman named Sarah Hearn, is that right? Yeah, Sarah Herm, she's awesome as well. There's so many cool stories that, again, God takes sometimes the ugliest parts or the darkest parts of our our own decisions, our own choices, or things that have been done to us. And he can even make beauty from those ashes.

So, just all glory to him. And Sarah would say the same thing. I've talked with her on the show, and she shares her story of. Um, she had she was young in her twenties, I believe, and she had already had previous children and she was not married to the father of this child. And she found she was pregnant.

And in her words, she felt like no one would want to be with someone who had so many kids. She thought that this was she was pressured by the father in this case. That the only thing that they could do was have an abortion, that this was somehow the most responsible thing. Um those were his words. And So she knew there was already trepidation and regret in her heart.

She did not want to do this, but she thought it was the only thing she could do.

So she goes into the so-called clinic and obtains, again, the abortion drugs. They give the first, they administer the first dose there, and then you're supposed to take the second dose later on at home. Which is horrible that we do that to women, by the way. I mean, they're all alone to experience that trauma and destruction with no one to help them and no one to provide follow-up care in most cases. That's not women's health, just putting that out there.

But Sarah immediately started writing a letter. to her unborn child. I'm so sorry, like a little journal that I. I'm doing this. I don't want to do this.

I love you. And I would say she's prompted by the spirit to look for, so start Googling. Is there anything I can do to undo an abortion? And she Found a local clinic that is attached to a medical center that actually performs abortion reversal. And for anyone that doesn't know what that means, it's really just providing major doses of progesterone, which is the the hormone that your body produces in pregnancy.

Um the abortion drug deprives the child of that sustenance. And an abortion pill reversal is essentially to try to up those doses so that you can counteract what the first drug has done and try to save the life of that baby. And in her case, That was successful. And she had a little boy whose name is Isaiah. And it's such a beautiful story.

She, I believe, spoke at the March for Life last year. And just to see him and his smiling face, I think by now he's about six years old. And it's just a beautiful testament to how God can, again, redeem, even in the 11th hour, even in that emergency situation, God is still in the business of rescuing the lost sheep and those being led away to slaughter. A lot of times that is a more spiritual. Application, but in this case, it was literal.

It was the saving of his life. And it's it's one of the most beautiful stories. It is in Ezekiel 18, 21, it says, But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he has committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he has committed, they shall not even be mentioned unto him. In his righteousness that he has done, he shall live.

And I love what the Lord says here in Ezekiel 18:23. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die, saith the Lord, and not that he should return from his ways and live? And so we're not here to say that, hey, we're any better than you. I'm a sinner saved by grace, and Rebekah is as well. But we're here to say that you cannot stay in that sin.

You cannot. Continue in that degenerate, unrepentant lifestyle and claim to be a follower of Jesus. Come to him. We know that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. That's the whole reason that Jesus went to the cross is because we in our fallen and broken state couldn't do it on our own.

We cannot earn heaven. We cannot live life by our own righteousness. And but what we also can't do is rewrite reality. and say that something is okay and normal and right and autonomy and good if God says actually this is a destruction of innocent life. this this is heinous and we're not allowed to do this.

But many, many people I think we have to stress that there's been so much deception and so many lies and such a constant PR marketing effort on behalf of the people that make money from this procedure. That um We have to undo, we have to counter those lies, we have to debunk that so that people can see the beautiful truth of the humanity of our own children. Yeah, did you see the movie Unplanned? Yeah, it's powerful. It is traumatic at some points because.

It's her real life story. Knowing that you're talking about real people makes such a difference. But that experience, those experiences. Changed Abby Johnson's life, who she is post-abortive. She did choose to have abortions.

And then she chose to become a Planned Parenthood employee and eventually a director to sell abortion to other women. And until God got a hold of her heart, basically, and can. Like, woke her up to the reality of what it was that she's really doing. And now, of course, she's been one of the most powerful voices on the other side for many years. And she helps.

other abortion workers leave that industry. And she supports pro-life efforts across the country too.

So, again, God is right in the business of writing the best stories. But he knows and values every single one of us from our earliest moments, before we were even here on earth. And then he's knitting us together in our mother's womb uniquely. If we, as Christians, so for those of us who are listening, you're like, yes, I believe the Bible, I'm good with all that. Um but what choice I I can't make a choice for somebody else.

right i can't speak to or force any of those opinions on anybody else Yeah. If what God says in his word is true about you, It's also true for your neighbor. It's also true for somebody else down the street. And it's true for every single human being. We can't look at the destruction of any human being and say that that is a good thing.

We we can't call it anything other than what it is, which is evil and wrong. And so we can apply that to any other people group. except apparently for the pre-born. And that's the logic that I challenge. That's the area where we need to apply everything we already know and say we believe about human rights and the dignity of each individual person, especially as Christians.

and apply that to human beings. before we are born. Absolutely. And we can do something. I mean, you and I can do something, but a lot of people hear people on, you know, they see people on TV or they listen to people on the radio and they say, well, that's great, but there's nothing that I can do.

But the Bible says in James 2:14, it says, What does it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith and has not works? Can faith save him? It says, If a brother or sister be naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled, notwithstanding you give them not those things which are needful to the body, what does it profit? Even so, faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

So, if somebody's sitting alone on their couch right now and they're wondering what they could do, what is the first step? I'd say the first step is to pray that God opens your eyes to an opportunity right near you. Because there's always something that we can do to live out our faith. And in fact, if you have time on the other side, I'd love to go into some ideas and some suggestions that I have for the people of God to be active in for life ministry. We will, and we will get right back to that after these messages for the last segment.

Truth Talk Live. This is Rebecca Haney, and I want to beg you guys to please get involved in the pro-life movement. We'll be right back. Truth, talk, life, and bear death. All right, we are back with Rebecca Haney for the final segment.

And Rebecca, I love what you said on the other side of the segment where you said that the first thing that they need to do is to pray. Because in 2 Chronicles 7:13, it says, If I shut up heaven, that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people, if my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves and pray and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and I will heal their land.

So go ahead, Rebecca. Amen. Well, isn't that the truth? And I think that's a promise that we don't rely on enough, frankly. But it's a beautiful place to begin.

God is already at work. And if we know that and recognize that, all we're asking is the opportunity to partner with him. What an amazing opportunity that is. And there is something that everyone can do. It's different for every person, but I believe that every church can be the place that, let's say, a woman in an unplanned pregnancy situation, scared, alone, feeling pressured, she doesn't know where to go.

Too often, the first place that she goes is the abortion center. What if instead she went to her local congregation? What she went to the local church, and we became the place that every woman knew that instead of going down that road towards ending her child's life, that that was the only answer, that she knew that she could find help and hope at her local church. And I know so many congregations that do amazing work in this area, and that's a one-to-one relationship. That is how God has always designed his people to work.

There's also great opportunities to be able to share the love of Christ where women are going, which is like the abortion clinics, for example. And we need people to be present and pray and share hope, not in a confrontational or condemning way, but just so that women know that their baby matters and to give them the alternate perspective to share the truth with them, to share the gospel with them. And women and children's lives are literally being saved outside of clinics just by people that care enough to pray, to show up, that don't care about how it looks to the outside, that they're just there to focus on ministering to those women at their most vulnerable and lives being saved. I know, do you know Juan Reyes? I don't know.

He ministers in Chicago. Great, amazing testimony. But he just stands outside and prays outside abortion clinics in Chicago. And to date, just in his time of ministering in that way, and he had a radical transformation as well, but that's where he followed the call of God to do that. And 85 children have been saved from abortion because he and sometimes his friends are out there either holding signs or trying to talk with gently and caringly with the women who are going inside and they meet resistance sometimes, but and they don't they can't control these women's choices.

But if just by providing them a prayerful presence saying, please don't do this. Please, there are other options. We can help you. God loves you, and God loves your baby. Um to challenge some of those lives.

85 babies have been saved by one guy standing up and being obedient. Uh, and that's not even to get into, like, we could do whole shows on encouraging adoption, on supporting adoptive parents as the church, on supporting fatherhood and training up young men. Um, because you know, for every unwed mother, there's also a father involved. Um, that we need to develop fatherhood. Uh and provide mentors for young men.

Intergenerational mentorship through the church. God's set up His design so wonderfully of His body to be a family. And that means even if you are an orphan in the eyes of the world, you have a family in Christ. no matter where you go. And the church is really perfectly positioned to be the hands and feet of Christ here.

That's where I would start. And then again, we can have a whole show on political advocacy, on the laws that we have.

Now it's governed state by state. I think there's definitely a room for conversation about a political, like a constitutional amendment, for example, to protect life, or maybe a personhood amendment. There's lots of different legal strategies that can get us to the goal of outlawing murder and making sure that people know that, yes, the destruction of our pre-born children is also murder and is also wrong, and we're not going to legalize that in this country. But we also need to address the reasons that women find this as their maybe quote-unquote only option or how long we lied to ourselves. We need to roll back and debunk all of those lies and bring the truth, especially the truth of the gospel, to heal our hearts and then to heal our land.

Yeah. And my dad wanted my mother to get an abortion. I forgave him, whatever. He wasn't even a Christian, whatever. But so I'm here because my mother chose life.

And I have a friend of mine named Manuel Pittman, who is a, he's an apologist and he. Is he works with the students over in Elon University with a group called Cross Exchange? And he just called in. And Manuel, you have your own adoption story. Is that right?

Perfect. Absolutely. I definitely came from a household where a 16-year-old woman was not ready to have a child. And she when she had me, it was a very scary situation in different ways for uh her mental state. and the community around us.

And when I was brought here to the United States from Mexico, it was still a very complex situation we had going on where a broken home, a father was not present. And it would have been a very easy decision just to get rid of us, but by God's grace, They were put into the adoption agency, and through that. Story of going through different homes. different people that maybe considered us or wanted us. I kinda gave them heck, if you will.

I was not the most ruined child and I made it difficult for people around me. But when I came to the home of the Pittman family, they brought me into their home. They loved me. Uh, told me that I was a child of God, and it's not because of any works that I have done, and the same. terrible behavior that I gave to them, my parents.

they chose to love me no matter what. And they said that God loved me that in in a much richer way. And when I realized that, I fell in love with my parents and I fell in love with this amazing God that chose me to be part of the family. And now you're in seminary to become a pastor. Is that right, Manuel?

Absolutely. He's turned my life around in many different ways. I don't know where my life would be headed if I would have stayed in Mexico or if a mother chose a different option to even have a child. It probably would have been a very dangerous place. But God brought me to the United States, that home, to direct me to the path of shepherding others, bringing others into the fold through pastoral ministry.

And so I'm seeking to be humble in that and be as trained as effectively as possible through seminary. Yes, sir. Praise God. Did you have a question or a comment for Rebecca? Yes.

So I was able to come in a little bit later on the show, but one of the questions that I had, she mentioned about the legal system and how people, different senators, maybe some lawmakers are trying to navigate the law to outlaw murder in every context, which is kind of interesting that we have to make a special law to say, oh, this is murder too. But I wanted to say, ask her if she was if Rebecca, if you're for more incrementalism or abolitionism. Or if that debate is just stupid in itself. I didn't know if you had a certain side on that debate of how people fight against abortion you'd be on. I'm so glad you asked that.

And I thank you for sharing your story. To God be the glory on that. Uh but the debate has been raging for a long time and honestly I'm seeing a lot of people in the pro-life space moving towards a more holistic understanding of not accepting exceptions, if you will. That we have to live by what we say we believe, which is every life matters, every life is valuable, and if that's the case then we can't be arbitrarily determining that some humans don't have human rights. That every human be protected except children conceived in this particular circumstance.

The law doesn't apply to them.

Well, if they're human, then the law should, yes, the law should apply. I am a fan of what might be called the personhood strategy. I think that might be helpful because basically we just take the Constitution, which already says that no person shall be deprived of life or liberty without due process of law. And then, in the history of our country, we later clarified that that also applied to Black Americans. Americans who were brought here as slaves or their ancestors were.

But yes, they're also people and also Americans, and they still have all of those rights.

So the 14th and 15th Amendments were adopted later to clarify that those same rights still applied to all Americans, not just some. And I think we could adopt a similar tactic by not even introducing new laws necessarily, but just to clarify, like I don't even know that we need a new amendment to the Constitution, perhaps. that could be the case. But I think if we can clarify legally that In the Constitution, we already have guaranteed and recognized that God has given the right to life. We just need to clarify that this also applies to every human being from the moment of conception.

That there's no exceptions to that, that every human being is recognized under the law of the land to have these rights and shall not be deprived without due process of law.

So that's one strategy I'm a fan of. The strategy I'm not a fan of is anything that says, and then you can kill the baby.

So there have been, I think, laws made with good intentions in the past where we try to regulate certain methods or certain elements of abortion, but then codifying that you can also continue abortion in every other case. And that would be working against the principle that we know to be true.

So there is such a thing as principled incrementalism. But we can't deny the whole foundation for why we're fighting for life in the first place, if that makes sense.

So I think we just need to clarify that human rights belong to every human from our very beginning until God calls us home. That makes complete sense. And as we wind down in the last minute or so, and thank you for the call, Manuel. But as we wind down in the last minute, once again, if people want to find out more about what you're doing or they want to listen to your show or get involved, how would they find you online or on the radio? We'd be honored to have them listen and hear what you think.

Faith Works Live is the name of my main show that I do, and you can get that on podcast form wherever finer podcasts are purveyed. And you can also follow us on the socials under that name, Faith Works Live. And I also have a special weekend show on Faith Radio. And you can get Faith Works Weekend at myfaithradio.com. And I want to thank you for coming on today, Rebecca.

Maybe the next time we talk about it, we can talk about how we can get involved politically. Because you said, as a Christian, if you're a Christian and you believe in the pro-life movement and you vote for Democrats, that could be problematic. But I want to thank you for coming on today, Rebecca.