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Welcome to Truth Talk Live. This is Russ East, your host. I'm so glad that you could join us today because I have a very special friend. Who has a great ministry? It's called Truth and Love Ministry.
Mark Parsons, thank you for being on the program today. We're going to have. a discussion that I hope that our callers will will really resonate with and want to even call in. Uh eight the number they can call in is eight six six. Three, four, eight.
seventy eight eighty four That's 866. Three, four, eight. 7884. Mark Truth and Love Ministry. Could you share with our listeners?
How did this ministry get started? Right. Hey Russ, thanks for the opportunity to be on the show. Yeah, so Truth and Love Ministry has been Around for more than 20 years. It really started back.
With a Lutheran pastor named Mark Kairis, who arrived in Nampa, Idaho in the late 1980s to plant a Christian church here. And as soon as he got out and started meeting people knocking on doors, most of the people that he was running into at that time were active Mormons, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And very quickly, he realized that he didn't speak the Mormon language well enough in order to be able to actually have a productive conversation with them.
So he actually spent a significant amount of time learning Mormonism. Eventually, it took a sabbatical from full-time pastoral ministry to write the book. Speaking the truth in love to Mormons that really launched the ministry. And for the next few years after that, Mark went on the speaking circuit and presented about sharing gospel messages with Latter-day Saints in a non-confrontational law and gospel relational manner.
So it's been around for 20 years empowering Christians to witness and proclaiming Christ directly into the Mormon world. Excellent. And tell our listeners a l a little bit about the various forms of ministry that the truth and love Ministry does you do some uh some great podcasts and uh Just done some amazing resources for anyone out there who's trying to reach their Mormon friends for Christ. and so forth. You've got some great outreaches that you do in Utah and so forth and other places around the country.
Tell us a little bit about that, would you? Yeah, so there really are three different outreach arms connected to Truth in Love Ministry. The first is our primary Equipping Christians to Witness website, t i L M.org.
So truth in Love Ministry.org, T I L M dot org. On that website, we house really hundreds of hours worth of content that one could work through, including the Witnessing Christ podcast that you mentioned. One of the things that we've done with that is walk through a number of other Christian, former Mormon books about folks that have left Mormonism for biblical Christianity. We are always trying to really keep a pulse on what's being talked about at general conference in the Mormon Church.
So that's their twice a year. big event that they do internationally where they present what we would call kind of devotions or short sermons and we respond to those and teach christians how to react to those Every year, we teach hundreds of Christians around the world how to open their doors to Latter-day Saint missionaries. Those 18 and 19-year-old young men and women that are out knocking on doors again. We encourage Christians not just to wait for them to come and knock on their door, but actually to reach out to their local LDS church to have them come over and speak with them. It's just a great opportunity to share Jesus.
So, we have a program called Please Open the Door that you can find on that tilm.org website. Additionally, we have two other outreach arms directly into the Mormon world. One is a website called beyeperfect. org.
So in Mormonism, they're very familiar with Matthew five forty eight, where Jesus says, be ye therefore perfect as your Father which in heaven is perfect. And we really build off that idea that if we wanted to approach Heavenly Father based on what we've done, it would have to be 100% perfect. And we use that as a launching point for conversations. Every year, we conduct mission trips connected to the Tiln.org website and the BE Perfect website in Arizona, Utah, and Idaho, where we take hundreds of Christians door to door to share non-confrontational law and gospel messages. Right now, we're actually using the parable of the prodigal spons.
To engage in those conversations, we usually just ask. The woman at the door, what their favorite Bible story is. And then we transition into sharing our message by saying, We'd love to share with you a story from Luke chapter 15. How that website And the BE Perfect Ministry is really designed to reach those that are a little bit more deeply entrenched in Mormonism. We never mentioned Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon, even on that website.
It's much more devotional content in nature. Two years ago, we launched a third arm of the ministry called jesusisenough.org. You can also find that on YouTube at JesusISENUF under a search. That ministry is really designed to reach the struggling Mormon, one who has one foot in and one foot out the door of the Mormon church. We have found that that is a large audience of folks that are kind of in this place in between.
They're no longer truly Mormon. They haven't yet made their way into the biblical Christian world. And it was really designed as a segue from the back door of Mormonism into the front door of a Christian church. In that series, we took And told nine stories of former Mormons that are now Biblical Christians about their journey from Mormonism to Biblical Christianity.
So you can check all three of those different websites out and find a whole plethora of resources. You know, speaking of of testimonies, I I've listened to some of those and they're and they're just very encouraging Very encouraging in those testimonies. Would you want to share possibly one of those testimonies of a person who was in the Mormon church? And then They were saved and and they just tell their story and so forth. Who who comes to your mind, Mark?
That might this might be an encouragement to people listening. Yeah, the first time that came to mind was just really. We rely so much on the power of God's word, both in a spoken form as well as even a sung form when it comes to gospel outreach. And the first story that came to mind was that of our dear friend Carrie, who she and her family all grew up in Mormonism. Her husband served several callings, including that of a bishop, which is one of the highest levels that a local congregation member can serve.
And during his time of serving as a bishop, he actually was assigned to go and serve overseas in Germany. And while they were in Germany, they actually spent Easter Sunday at a Christian conference center. And on that Easter Sunday morning, there wasn't an LDS church to go to, so they went to a local Christian sunrise service. And during that service, Carrie heard the Christian hymn, Nothing but the Blood of Jesus, for the first time. And as she described it, as she was listening to those words, They just touched something inside of her that had never been touched before, and that was really an understanding that what makes her right with God is not the good that she's done.
But only the blood of Jesus, that there's no worth or value that she could bring to God. And it left her filled with emotions. She has told me she's not really an emotional person normally, but. Those words about Jesus being enough and his blood fully satisfying the wrath of God because of sin for her. Really struck her.
She didn't leave the Mormon church right away after that. It was a number of years later, but that was really the first. In a sense, law message that you can't do this, but also a beautiful gospel message that Jesus has done this for you, that carried. And eventually, God used other Christian messages to bring her into the Christian faith. Mm, praise God.
You know, Mark, I was just thinking about, even th this this uh this afternoon when I was right driving into the studio here. I'd like to just really kind of mull over the amazing sacrifice that Christ made for us this this Yeah. And you know, I was thinking through Well, now, if we're looking at a one-to-one level, like if Jesus. were to take my sin upon myself. That's just like a one-to-one kind of a thing.
So, how is it that thousands upon thousands can benefit from the payment of sin? But we know that Jesus paid for all sin, you know, and across the whole world and everything. And so, that's why we can claim that gift.
So, we'll talk more about this: the beauty of what Christ did on the cross for us and other reasons why Mormons maybe are having a hard time coming to Christ. Let's talk about that when we come right back here on Truth Talk Live. Stay tuned, we'll be right back. Why? Who were?
Daniel's Christmas disciples. This is True Commentary with Stu Epperson, author and host of Truth Talk Live. Did you know that centuries before the Magi ever showed up in Bethlehem, Daniel, the godly Magi, wrote about a stone in chapter 2 of Daniel, a sun in chapter 7 of Daniel, and a star in chapter 12? You see, he had godly influence. He purposed in his heart centuries before.
He stood for Christ and he talked about the first coming of Christ. They saw the star and then they met the star. Thank God for his divine assembly line. God used Daniel and God could be using you today in someone else's life. Point them to Jesus because he's the star of Christmas and he's the star, the morning star of the whole world.
Who helped bring you to Christ? Call them today and thank them for their influence in your life. Join Stu on radio, social media, and his daily Truth Talk Live podcast. Learn more at truthnetwork.com. Welcome back to Truth Talk Live.
This is Russ East, your host. You might be listening in Virginia right now. You might be in Norfolk, Virginia. You might be in Lynchburg, Virginia. You might be in Winston-Salem, Charlotte, Raleigh.
Salt Lake City, Utah, out here out west where I am. I'm in Ogden, Utah. You might be listening to our stations up in Ohio, Dayton, and Toledo. Hey, you can call us right now. If you have a question for Mark, you want to be better equipped to reach your Mormon friends, your relatives, your Mormon missionaries to come to the door.
866-348-7884. We would love to try and answer your questions, get you some materials. That number again is 866-348-7884. Mark, would you share with our listeners a website where people think feel so led by the Lord to give a donation to your ministry? I want to have people get involved.
And maybe they want to get involved by providing a Christmas gift. What's a good website for that? Yes, thanks, Russ. Great place for them to go would be t ilm dot org backslash give.
So again, truth in love ministry. org, t ilm dot org backslash give. Great, super, okay.
So as we're continuing this discussion, key reasons why you feel that The people of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or the Mormon Church, what are a couple things? that seem to be roadblocks. in their understanding of things, like even just in my last comment before the break, You know, just trying to understand the gift. of what Christ did for us. You know, what's I've been out of the Mormon church for like how many years now?
Since I was four, I was saved out of it when I was 14 years old, and I'm 60 now, so it's been a while. But there's sometimes things that, even because of what has been put into your brain at a young age, and imagine for years and years. You know, how do you shed all of that and shed the confusion? What have you seen over the years? To help our Christian listeners.
Be able to empathize a little bit and sympathize with our Mormon friends. What are they dealing with? Mark. Yeah, thanks, Ross. It's a really important question to wrestle with.
So many of our Latter-day Saint friends have been brought up in a culture. Where they have been taught that really everything that God has provided to humanity as a whole is referred to as general salvation.
So, pretty much everybody, according to the Mormon belief system, is going to receive a salvation in one of three kingdoms of glory.
So, they believe pretty much everybody on Judgment Day will be assigned to a level of heaven. And they've really been taught that after that general salvation, it's really up to you to do your part in order to achieve what's called an exaltation, to be able to live with Heavenly Father in what's called the celestial kingdom one day. And everything that comes after that general physical resurrection from the dead, which they often equate with salvation. Everything after that really does come with conditions. That it is up to you to use what's called your agency.
They believe that we have the ability to innately choose right and wrong. And so it's up to us to use that agency to make right decisions, to make covenants with God, eventually to keep all of the commandments perfectly, all so that we can receive that exaltation. and not just live with God, but in a very real sense, according to their doctrine, to become like God. in his very essence. And so I would say right there, Russ, is one of the things that is really preventing a lot of Latter-day Saints from entering into the Christian faith is this.
Preconceived idea that they've been brought up with that they are gods in embryo, or that they have what's called divine potential, the ability to achieve divinity at the end of life. And they believe this all comes back to a doctrine called pre-existence, where they believe that every single person that was on earth today was a premortal, literal, spiritual child of Heavenly Father. and a heavenly mother. And we've been sent to this earth to use our agency. and in a sense to very much become independent.
We need to prove ourselves, prove our worth and our value before Heavenly Father. And one of the things that we constantly try to do in our evangelizing has helped them see that a relationship with God is not one of increasing independence, but one of increasing dependence. It's not looking more and more at what I must do and trusting in myself. But it's trusting fully in the person and work of Jesus Christ. And really ultimately at the core of all of this is the working of Satan.
He has distorted true Christian doctrine just enough so that it sounds on the surface Christian, but enough that it completely distorts the true message of the atonement. You were talking about the atonement and that message that Carrie heard of nothing but the blood of Jesus earlier. In Mormonism, the atonement really just makes eternal life with God possible. It deals with the problem of death. but not with the problem of sin.
Man himself needs to deal with that problem. Right. Thank you for that. Again, if you'd like to call in, the number is 866-348-7884. Maybe you have a question for Mark.
Maybe you're a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and you're just questioning everything we're saying here. We want to have a non-contentious. Discussion with you that is void of any mockery whatsoever. We want to interact with you, we really do. In fact, I have an office down here.
We've changed locations. We're in Ogden, downtown Ogden, 2417 Grant Avenue, in between 25th Street and 24th Street, at a place called the Coffee Compound. And so That might be a little awkward to go into, but you know, we don't have to have coffee. We can get a something else here, but we'll get a soda, you know, get some juice, and we'll sit and we'll talk, you know. Mark, how about just to add to that, another topic would be the apostasy, the great apostasy that the Mormons teach about, that they are the one true church, and so all the other churches.
Joseph Smith was told that that they were an abomination, right? In first in the introduction, I think, to the Book of Mormon. Or maybe oh no, sorry, in the book Joseph the part Joseph Smith, it's like the account of the vision, the first vision. Do you want to talk about that a little bit and why that might be also something that keeps a Mormon in the Mormon church? Yeah, so even if someone starts to question the validity of Joseph Smith's.
claims and the Book of Mormon. They've been taught their entire life that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is the one true Church on earth. And so, for some, as they begin to unravel Mormonism and their belief in Joseph Smith, their belief in the Book of Mormon, even their belief in Jesus and the Bible. Everything starts to come undone because they've been taught that they're part of maybe to use this illustration, the varsity Christian team. Why would you want to go and step down to the junior varsity teams of historical biblical Christian churches that supposedly are apostates?
You mentioned The apostasy.
So Joseph Smith taught That for over 1800 years, or nearly 1800 years since the time of the apostles, that the true gospel has been lost on earth. And that God through Joseph Smith would restore the gospel. They often talk about the restoration or the restored gospel, according to Joseph Smith. And really, as a biblical historical Christian or a Bible-only Christian. When I look at that claim, all I see is not something that is restoring the gospel, but it is rejecting the true gospel.
And it is adding more and more conditions to it. A pastor down in Utah wrote a book that he had a chapter that was titled Mormonism: the Gospel of More. And I felt that that was really aptly titled because Mormonism claims to have more scriptures. more revelation, more covenants, more commandments. And what we really say is, all of those mores are actually less.
because they lead us to look to ourselves As the means of eternal life rather than fully to the person and work of Jesus. And so, the idea that the truth was lost on earth is definitely something Latter-day Saints have to deal with. And so, we encourage them not to throw. The Bible out with the bathwater of Mormonism to re-examine the Bible. One of the things that we do in that Jesus is enough series.
is we try to help Mormons unpack the issues they had and point them to Jesus. Excellent. Stay with us because we have more on this topic. With Mark Parsons with Truth and Love Ministry. We'll be right back here.
If you're listening to Truth Talk Live, give us a call, 866-2666. 348-7884, and we'll talk more about how we can be better equipped to reach our Mormon friends for Christ. Welcome back to Trip Talk Live. This is Russ East, your host. Sitting here in Ogden, Utah.
I would love to hear from any of our listeners here in Utah. Maybe you've had some experiences. In trying to share the gospel with your Mormon family, and you just need a little encouragement today.
So, that number you can call in on is 866. Three four eight. 7884. I'm with Mark Parsons with Truth in Love Ministry. And we're just talking about ways that we can be better equipped to reach Mormons for Christ.
And so Mark before we get too deep into this next segment here about Some of the major Mormon views, such as on sin and salvation, which we've talked about a little bit, and the nature of God. We've been talking about that a little bit, but would you share another testimony? Give us some encouragement of maybe someone through the Jesus is Enough series that comes to your mind that has been, you know, just. been free from having to perform in order to get into the graces of God, to be at the highest level of heaven, to be come a God, and all these things, you know, that our hearts go out for those who believe this. Would you want to share some of that?
Yeah, thanks, Russ. One of the stories that I have always appreciated the most from that series is He's a young man at the time that he comes to the Christian faith named Braden. Brayden's story really begins here in the Treasure Valley of Idaho. He and his family were faithful Mormons and When he was eight years old, he got baptized into the Mormon church, and the very next day he went to his public school. And was going around bragging.
That he had gotten baptized.
Now he was able to covenant with God, make commitments to God, and start keeping the commandments faithfully. And in his second grade class, a little Christian, a biblical Christian girl, came up to him and said, Brayden? I have Jesus and Jesus is all I need. It was a very, very simple message that she shared with him. She didn't try to confront his false Mormon beliefs.
She instead just pointed him to the sufficiency of the person and work of Jesus Christ.
Now, Brayden, at eight years old, didn't leave the Mormon church that day, but that planted a little seed of doubt and a little seed of the gospel in the back of his mind. And it was years later that another girl, a young girl named Emily, Who he had really fallen in love with, that had a different faith background than he did, and he was trying to convert her into Mormonism. First, he tried to get her to read the Book of Mormon. She didn't, and that plan failed.
So he sat her down one afternoon after a date. And he laid out for her what's called the Mormon plan of salvation: that we are all supposedly pre-mortal sons and daughters of a heavenly father and mother. Who have been sent to this earth to choose the right to progress as part of the Mormon plan of salvation? That we need to get baptized into the Mormon church, that we need to get sealed for time and all eternity to our spouse so that we can be with our forever families in the celestial kingdom. He laid this all out, spoke to her for almost two hours.
She was quiet. And she was kind throughout the entire conversation. And then when he stopped, she said, Brayden, and I don't necessarily encourage all of our listeners to use this word, but she said, Brayden, that's stupid. and not in my Bible. And it really struck him, and it forced him to go into the Bible for the next few months.
reading it cover to cover to try and find Something in the Bible that lined up with this idea that we really have to do something conditionalized in order to live eternally with Heavenly Father. Shortly after that, we call it his shelf-breaking moment, where everything started to come crashing down. And it was his girlfriend Emily that said, We just need to start going to a Christian church. And it was through that Christian church that they ended up at a Christian Bible class. And God has a good sense of humor in this Bible class.
It was actually an evangelism course. Or the instructor asked for a volunteer to play a Christian witnessing to a Mormon. And a Mormon being witnessed to by a Christian.
Well, Brayton, this still really a Mormon, his arms shot up. He thought he could defeat this Christian in any argument. But God had other plants. During their conversation, the Christian was encouraged to simply use John chapter 1 to evangelize to this Mormon. And as he did, He read through John chapter 1, verse 1, In the beginning was the word.
and the Word was with God. And the word was God. And that was as far as he got in reading John 1, because it struck Brayden in a way that it never had before. Brayden had read the Bible cover to cover several times. But in this situation, God used those words, to open his eyes.
and to allow him to see the truth that Jesus Is not just a son of God, an older brother figure that we can follow as an example. but that Jesus is God. The word came flesh and dwelled among us. He realized that this was Genesis 1 type of language that goes all the way back to God's creative ability in the in time and in creating the world. And now God, through the power of his word.
Created faith in Brayden's heart and life in a very powerful way, so that very quickly after this. He actually was compelled to start training for full-time pastoral ministry. And now today Brayden, this one who had been Uh Yeah. A little boy that was constantly looking for the truth now shares the truth of the true Christian faith wherever he can. Oh, amen.
Praise God for this. You know, I was thinking about how. You know, the idea of sin for those who are of the Church of Jesus Christ, Latter-day Saints. You know, like Adam's sin that passed on to us. That's a whole other foreign kind of a concept.
You know, when we have a conversation with somebody who's Mormon and we try to share with them that. That we are, you know, we're Morm Mormons teach that you are a child of God. Right out of the gate, you know, and we kind of are, we don't have that kind of a problem with Adam's sin being passed down to us. I believe it's Romans 5:18, I think. And And so Basically, would you want to share about that a little bit?
You know, they believe in the articles of faith that we're responsible for our own personal sins, but the whole idea of Adam and Eve, they have a different view on that, right?
So it's not as. It's not as dire like we have this sin problem so much. We're just trying to. Basically, just become a better version of ourselves, and we get rewarded, and so it's just not as much of a big deal. Yeah, thanks, Russ.
I would say that the view of sin and the view of the fall into sin is one of the major areas that we do need to spend some time camped out in when we are witnessing to our Mormon friends, because they do believe that the fall into sin was actually beneficial for mankind. They believe that Adam and Eve were really given two conflicting commandments, the command to be fruitful and multiply. and the command not to eat from the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And they chose to choose according to Mormon doctrine the right. They chose the better of the two wrong options so that they could begin to procreate and have children.
The Mormon doctrine teaches that up until that point, Adam and Eve were not yet able. To be fruitful and multiply. And so they even called the fall a blessing. or something that was necessary.
Well, the Bible very clearly calls it a curse. that has impacted all of mankind. And like any curse, The curse has to be broken by someone external rather than internal. Even all of our fairy tales that we love from Walt Disney, the one that is under the curse cannot save themselves.
Someone has to come and release them from that curse. And that's what Mormonism doesn't at its core realize: it tries to give man more ability and power that he has. He has a minor sin problem. Than a death sin problem. As you were mentioning, the Bible very clearly says the wages of sin is death.
We are all born into this world. With a thoroughgoing tendency to have our hearts bent and inclined away from God in unbelief and sin rather than toward Him. And so the sinful nature that we all possess because we are born into this sin-filled world. Is something that we do need to spend time with our Latter-day Saint friends, just asking them questions about their own life. Can you remember when you started sinning, did someone have to teach you how to sin?
Or was that just a part of your nature? And many eventually will acknowledge, no, I realize that it's been a part of me all along. It's not something that I eventually became. I always have been. And just to kind of add to this conversation here, Mark.
It's a sad thing when we realize that this man joseph smith you know you look throughout the bible yes there One major follow-up after the other, okay? But yet we find in the Bible that these people were. were um were changed by God, uh, that they came to Christ, that they they came to like a a sense of remorse of their sin, and David was a man after God's own heart and and and things of this. But sadly, Joseph Smith We don't see that, you know, and so as we look at a verse that he translated into his. uh edition or version of the Bible in Romans 4.5 Here's what it says in the King James Version and in other versions of the Bible, of the evangelical Protestant Bible.
It's going to say the basic same thing.
Okay, maybe some modernization of the words, but these words say, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. But isn't it sad, Mark, that Joseph Smith just kind of put the word just kind of snuck the words not He put it right after this part here. He changed it to: but to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth not. The ungodly. His faith is counted for righteousness.
Can you talk about how how significant that is when you when you say when you change that verse like that? Yeah, and in addition to changing that verse, that is really at the heart and core of Mormon doctrine is that. If we are going to approach Heavenly Father on Judgment Day. We need to come with our act together. We need to clean ourselves up.
We need to work towards becoming worthy. We can't just receive The perfection of Jesus Christ and say, Thank you, God, and then live a life of thankfulness out of that. We need to show. Through our works and through our effort, an increase and a progression, an improvement, a showing to God that we are now becoming more independent, that we have what it takes to be divine. And so that really is at the heart and core of this: is that God cannot allow anything unclean into his presence.
And as biblical Christians, we would say the only way that we can become unclean is by being given the righteousness and the cleanliness, if you want to use that phrase, of Christ. rather than somehow cleaning ourselves up. Mormons are really focused on what they need to do to clean themselves up to approach Heavenly Father. And even something as beautiful as marriage, you know, that we enjoy here on earth. Jesus said there's no marriage or giving of marriage in heaven.
And so Mormons are taught that, you know, we can be married forever. And then there's all that goes along with that. And boy, it's tough, it's challenging.
So we're going to continue this discussion. You're listening to Truth Talk Live. We hope that you'll give us a call at 866-348-7884. If you have a question, we'd like to help you get better equipped to reach Mormons for Christ. We'll be right back.
Cheers, God. Why? Welcome back to Truth Talk Live. This is Russ East, your host. I'm with Mark Parsons.
If you'd like to. Possibly, you know, pray. I hope you'll pray about making a special donation to Truth and Love Ministry. It's T-I-L-M. What a great opportunity you have right now to help the work that Mark is part of.
Reaching Christians all across the country, just providing so many resources. Opportunities to go even door to door to people, just working with groups and doing workshops and seminars and just all kinds of online materials. But Jesus is enough. Series, so many good things.
So, Mark, thank you for being on Truth Talk Live today. That number you can call in right now if you'd like to speak with Mark is 866-348-7884. That's 866-348-7884. Or get in touch with him later on when your schedule is freed up. Mark, when we talk about tips on reaching Mormons, we've been talking about how you've shared some lives that have been changed and people have been born again.
But now, as we're just talking about maybe some tips, like for instance, if you were Mormon and I was talking to you, I would. Oftentimes I'll start off by saying I want you to know that I don't have any spirit of contention. Would you want to share a little bit about that phrase and why it's a helpful thing to? say to a Mormon You know, the significance of that. Can you share a little bit about that little phrase?
I don't have a spirit of contention. Why is that helpful when talking to a Mormon? Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Russ. I think so often when Christians have Gone about witnessing to their Mormon friends or family, they have been contentious.
We look at Those that have a different belief system that we do sometimes as The enemy, and we forget that Latter-day Saints, Mormons are not our enemy. They are folks that may be trapped by our true enemy, Satan, and the lies that he has woven into Mormonism. But when we approach them rather than with a spirit of contention, I tell people to approach with a spirit of curiosity. To genuinely want to know and understand the individual person that you're speaking with.
So that we don't draw false characterizations of Mormonism as a whole. or falsely characterize the individual Mormon that we're speaking with. Over the years, this is something that I've had to learn, unfortunately, through my own experiences of making statements that are blanket statements about teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, that some of those are no longer believed by the average Latter-day Saint. And so, what I spend a significant amount of time doing right away when I get into a conversation with someone that I know to be a Mormon is I will ask them. To share with me the plan of salvation and how they believe they are going to be made right with Heavenly Father.
Maybe a simple question. To ask that really breaks through the dialogue that sometimes goes in circles is what does it take to get the best? that Heavenly Father has to give.
So don't just ask, what does it take to be saved? Or they're going to probably say, well, Jesus, faith in Jesus saves you. And then we might think we believe the same thing. But what does it take to get the best? that God has to give because that question will force them To speak Mormonism if they truly believe it.
And they're gonna say, well, to get that isn't just a free gift from God, because they believe that eternal life with God does require. Ordinances and covenants and the keeping of commandments. And so at that point, then you can start transitioning into asking them: how is that going for you? How do you feel that you're doing when it comes to progressing towards perfection in this life?
Now, Granted, they do believe that there is an additional life after this, before eternal life, called the spirit world. where they can continue in that progression. But one of the Things that I will commonly ask is: if you've been sent to this earth to to inherit a physical body.
So that will allow you to experience sin and suffering and temptation so that you can choose the right. One thing that we do not have in the spirit world is a body.
So, how are we going to be able to use that body to choose the right and fully progress if we no longer have it in this spirit world? I don't think that as a gotcha question as much as to really get them to think about. The timeliness of this question that is really in the here and now. That we would need to become perfect. And maybe even that phrase, becoming perfect, is one that I'll camp out on, where.
When Jesus spoke about perfection in the Bible, He never spoke about it in a way that it is something that we can strive towards or eventually achieve. Perfection in a biblical righteousness sense is you either have it. or you don't. Maybe to use this illustration, Rust, I found this effective is to use the illustration of a video game. in a video game, you can eventually perfect a level of a video game and eventually perfect the entire game so that you make no mistakes as you progress through all of the levels.
Mormonism really looks at the life of progression, like that, where you're going to make all sorts of mistakes, but through knowledge, the gaining of knowledge, maybe from others or the example of others, or through personal experience, you can begin to get better at the game of life. And eventually, you can level up and continue to complete the levels of progression that are necessary for eternal life. Where the Bible would say, nope, if you're gonna treat your relationship with God like a video game, You need to complete it on your first try without any errors. That would be perfection. Perfection is not something that can be achieved through trial, error, and striving.
And just imagine if you were Mormon and you were taught that. The idea of this word God is only reserved for heavenly Father, or we would say God the Father. Imagine, though, that if you were to go to heaven when you die, one of the levels of heaven, let's say if you don't quite cut The you know, the level of righteousness and worthiness, and you only reach the middle kingdom, you realize that you'll never be with God. They would teach you that Heavenly Father will not be there, okay? But Jesus will visit you.
And it doesn't go into any details about that, but just start thinking about that, what that looks like. He would just visit you. Does that mean once a year, once every 20,000 years? What does that mean? And then the lowest level of heaven is where the Holy Ghost will visit you.
And so it's like, I hate to say this, but to my Mormon friends, it's like a bronze, silver, gold concept of who God is and what heaven's all about. And then there's not to mention the spirit prison. That if you're not a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you go to spirit prison until you get baptized proxy by someone who's living on earth and you've passed and you're into the post-mortal world and you're in spirit prison until you accept Mormonism in the next life. Oh my goodness, so much stuff, Mark. I've got to read this and I'll be quiet.
2 Timothy 2, 23-26. I'm going to read it. And then as the Lord leaves, you just share a part of this verse that jumps out at you. It says, But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strife. And the servant of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient in meekness, instructing those who oppose themselves.
it perhaps peradventure per or perhaps, will uh God will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth, and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil who has who are taken captive by him at his will. That's a bunch of great stuff, but what comes to your mind for our listeners to capture out of that passage, just in the time we have remaining? Yeah, I think this was It's a beautiful passage that really Is both convicting and compelling for my own heart and my own witness because it really forces me and everyone that wants to witness to a Latter-day Saint to do a heart check. And we ask ourselves, why are we doing this? Are we doing this as some sort of a project or some sort of a goal that we need to win?
This argument in order to feel better about ourselves and even better about our own relationship with God, our own belief system. Or am I doing this truly with a heart of love and a heart that is truly seeking the heart? Of this lost person, not just the ability to win a rational argument. Because ultimately, what we are looking for is that this person would know Jesus in a salvif, a truly salvific way. That their trust would not be placed in themselves and their work, but only in the person and work of Jesus.
The word repentance was used in there as they would turn in repentance from themselves.
So often for Latter-day Saints, it's not. That we are, and we are at times getting them to turn from outright sin and licentiousness. But so often with Latter-day Saints, The thing that is really keeping them from trusting wholly in the person and work of Jesus is not their love of outright sin and licentiousness. but their love of their own self-righteousness. This perceived idea that I am doing something to make myself right with God, and I can continue to do even more to make myself right with Him.
And so often, when we share this message that what God demands is absolute perfection. And they've been trying to build a bridge of perfection their entire life that we've just told them. has been completed by Jesus Christ himself. They often don't want to give up on that self-salvation project because they've been working so hard at it their entire life. And I think we have to prayerfully step back and say, you know what, in my own life, I have had so many times where I have started working on something, and someone gave me an easier way.
because I'm a man, I'm going to continue to do it my way. even if it means failure.
So prayerfully check your heart. Check your motivation and then say a prayer asking that God would give you a true heart. to speak in love. And in truth, not just in truth. You know, there's thank you for that.
You know, there are so many Mormon missionaries out on the streets. There's probably around 60,000 or so. And I hope that our listeners who are born-again believers will prayerfully seek out an opportunity to talk with them in the way we've just described.
So, if you need help doing that, go to t-ilm.org or you can reach me here. Just go to the truth network. website. I'll be glad to talk with you as well. Mark, thank you.
We really appreciate your ministry. We'll be praying. And we just want to thank you for taking time out to be on Truth Talk Live. Thank you so much. Have a lot of day.
Thank you. Thanks for listening.
