Is Evolution Incompatible with Christianity?

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Well, hey guys, this is Michael Zwick. The question of the day is this: Is evolution incompatible with Christianity? Is evolution incompatible with Christianity? The phone number to call is 866-34TRUT-866-348-7884. But we've got a Carl Kirby.

First name is C-A-R-L. Last name is K-E-R-B-Y, and he is a Christian apologist. And where are you out of, Carl?

Well, I actually live in northern Kentucky, but I'm up in the Chicago area just finishing up a three-day camp with high schoolers.

Okay.

Well, you sound like a busy guy, but I hear you're a strong Christian. I've listened to your testimony all online and all of that. And we're going to get into the apologetics and all of that. But did you grow up in a strong Christian home? No, far from it.

My dad, I tell everybody, I grew up around guys with one name, Crusher, Bruiser, Mauler, Assassin. My dad was a professional wrestler.

So trust me when I say that IQ is not stressed in the home of a professional wrestler, I did go to church. They made me go to church and I I learned ritual. I learned how to stand up, sit down, kneel an offering plate, but I knew nothing about Jesus really until I was twenty-six years old. And what happened at 26? 26, it's a crazy thing.

I took my wife to church, she got saved. I took my brother to church, she got saved because that's what you do when you have problems. But I wasn't saved, I didn't know the Lord. And I was living in actually Salt Lake City, Utah at the time. And we had an evangelist come into town, and I took my brother to go hear this guy because an NBA player was speaking.

And I'm like, hey, he's an NBA player, he knows what's up. You need to go listen to this guy. And the guy that came to town was a guy named Lowell Lundstrom. And he traveled for over 50 years just doing family revivals. He came to Salt Lake, he preached the simple gospel message, and I'm in the University of Utah Huntsman Center, big auditorium, all these people.

And it literally is, it was as it was as if the scales were pulled off my eyes, and I'm like. I'm going to hell. I don't have that. And that May 15, 1987, gave my life to the Lord Jesus Christ and been running ever since. Praise God.

And it looks like we've got somebody to answer the question before you can. We've got Emmanuel Pittman out of Gibsonville, North Carolina. And Manuel, let me ask you the question: Is evolution incompatible with Christianity? That's it. Yeah, I would it's really good to talk to you, Mr.

Kirby, as well. It's an honor to have you on the program. I would respond to that by saying absolutely not. Evolution itself and its worldview is based outside the image of God because in evolution you introduce the concept and the metaphysical reality of death into the picture, the divine narrative. And if you do that, then the whole idea of the fall and the nature of man is thrown into question of since death already exists.

It's not something that God curses against sin.

So that's what I thought I would answer the question. What are your thoughts, Mr. Kirby? Yeah. I think he's right on the money.

I but one thing that I always tell people When somebody asks you a question like that, make sure that you understand what they're actually asking. Because when you say, is evolution incompatible with the Bible? The first thing I would ask you back is, what do you mean by evolution? Because here's the problem. You're going to see that the term evolution is used in a number of different ways.

Most of us, when we hear that term, we're thinking, as we just heard, that, oh, you've got these things that turn from one thing into another thing, and they're death and suffering over millions of years, and tiny changes, tiny changes lead up to big changes so that we get a worm growing legs to crawl out of the land to become an amphibian, to turn into a rat, to turn into a wolf-like animal, to go back into the ocean to become a whale. That is absolutely not true. But now another term that the world uses and is accurate is change. Evolution has changed. Do things change?

Trust me, if you look at my wedding picture, I've been married 43 years. I have changed over time. And so the challenge is this: making sure that we understand the terminology that they're using. Because is change over time true? Yes.

But does change over time lead to big changes where a worm will grow legs? And the answer is absolutely not. And he's absolutely correct when it comes to the death part. I mean, we cannot have death before Adam sin because the minute you do that, you're undermining the whole reason why Christ came and died on a cross. What are your thoughts, manual?

Absolutely. I fully spot on the money. Whenever I get asked on a university campus about evolution, that's something that always need to be addressed. What are we talking about, things that change over time, adaption? And it's like, okay, in that context of micro evolution, the thing is growing and changing and maturing, absolutely.

But when it comes to macro evolution, there's a defined narrative that's going to be put into play, and that changes everything. That's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. And so, now, when you became a Christian, I think you said at 26 years old, it's not like you got into apologetics the next day.

Is that right, Carl? Oh, no. As a matter of fact, my first Sunday school teacher taught me: you take evolution, you put it in the Bible, God used it, God directed it.

So that's all I believed until I was like 28, and I got introduced. To the concept That no, God's word is true. And you can trust it. It's not good stories. It's not just spiritual and moral teaching.

It is literally, Genesis is written as absolute historical narrative, and you can trust it. And so I was 28 the first time I ever heard that message. And that really kind of rocked me to my core. Because now I'm like, hold up, my Sunday school teacher told me this, they're telling me this. Who's telling me the truth?

So I started this search to go find for myself. Who's telling me the truth?

What I see in the world, is it consistent with what I read in the Word of God? Or is it consistent with what I'm seeing the world telling me? And after being in this now for a long time, I can tell you right now, what we see in the world is consistent with what we read in God's Word. We just need to teach a generation how to apply their faith in a world gone crazy. Yeah, and you've got some pretty good stories.

And I know Emmanuel is actually part of a group called Cross Exchange, and they actually reach out to the students over at Elon University. And so he's doing the work of an evangelist. I know they've got a Charlie Kirk event on Monday. But, Carl, I want to ask you this: you said your wife actually became a Christian first. Is that right?

Yeah, yeah, I I d and you know, speaking of Charlie Kirk, I was blessed. I did two conferences with him, had had the privilege of doing dinner with him, and What a horrible circumstance and situation, but what an unbelievable impact it's having. Because I'm telling you right now, I work with youth a lot. And I am seeing a generation that is flat. hungry and looking for something.

Something's wrong. And it's, it's, that's encouraging. But yeah, my wife, uh, like I said, both of us, when we got married, neither one of us were Christians. I thought I was, but uh, we got married on a Cento Good Luck Day. We did a Buddhist ceremony.

We did a Christian ceremony because I was going to cover all the bases. And Uh, once uh, we we got to America, we were in the Azores. I was in the military, I got stationed in the Azores, and we were having some problems. I said, you know what? I lived with this family in my senior year in high school.

They were Christians. They didn't have these problems. And they went to church, so you needed to go to church.

So I took her to church. And she got saved the first Sunday, but she had been reading the Word of God. And that was the power. That's the thing that transformed her life, was reading the Word of God. She got saved.

Well, it wasn't until two years later that I actually came to the Lord because I thought I was already okay. And I heard one time you said that when you married her, you didn't have a problem going to church because you did that when you were when you were young. And you said you thought that you were a Christian. I'm curious, what made you think that you were a Christian? I'm an American, bro.

I was born in America, raised in the church. I knew stand-up, sit-down, kneel. I knew when the offering plate was coming. And we got a couple of Bibles laying around the house somewhere, so of course I'm a Christian.

So what made you realize that you weren't a Christian? That's why I say it to me. It was like the Holy Spirit literally had to take the scales off my eyes because my wife's life had spoken to me for two years. She was transformed. She was not the same as when we had gotten married.

So I saw that change in her lifestyle. And inside, I was like, I've never experienced that. I've never had that. I didn't know what it was, though. You know, it was just like.

Okay, she's happy, I'm happy, life is good. And so I think the two years of her really living the life, so if there's a.

Now look, we shouldn't be missionary dating. We shouldn't be missionary marriage, right? Believers should not be doing that. But if you find yourself in that circumstance, a situation where you're saved and your spouse is not, my wife lived with me for two years. Put Bible verses in my lunch, put Bible verses on the mirror.

I'd open a refrigerator up, Bible verse stuck in there. I mean, she was living the life and she was transformed. And it spoke volumes to me. She didn't know that I wasn't saved. She thought I was because I took her to church.

And then what happened is, I saw that. And I want you to tell us the story when we get right back from the break. We'll be right back after these messages: Truth Talk Live. You're listening to the Truth Network and TruthNetwork.com.

Alright, guys, we are back with Carl and Manuel. And Manuel, you had a question for Carl, is that right? The question I believe that Manuel has for Carl is: what are his thoughts on the divine counsel and creation? In what when what aspect? What are you talking about?

Uh are you still there, Manuel? I'm still here. Yeah, so go ahead. Yeah, the divine counsel.

So in Genesis, one of the in two of the passages we see, let us make man in our image. And then later in chapter three, it says man has become like us. And I know there's two different streams of thought. One is that Yahweh is in communion with angels that are participating in the creation order, and the other theory is the Divine Trinity. And I didn't know if you had a particular take on that part of creation.

I'm the Divine Trinity guy. I mean, you're talking about Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and using that and the terminology. Uh like a like a king, you know, us speaking in the in the plural. That that that would be my p approach to it. Gotcha.

And so we were talking about, you said your wife got saved, I believe, a couple of years before you did. You found out you weren't actually saved. And then you said it was just a supernatural Holy Ghost kind of thing that told you that you weren't saved. And then you got born again. And you said about a couple of years later, you started to answer some of these questions.

And some of your talks that I've heard, Carl, are pretty good, man. I mean, and by the way, what is your website if people want to check out your talks? F O R A. Dot com is the website. Stands for Reasons for Hope.

R-F-O-R-H. The thing I tell you to do, though, is download our app because that's where you're going to be able to watch the talks. I've got a lot of them up on there, and it's the same thing. F-O-R-H, just search for that on the App Store or search for reasons for hope. And you'll see speakers tab at the bottom.

You'll see my picture. Great for keeping mice out of the pantry. Put it up there, but hit that full-length talks, and you can watch a bunch of them on there. Um and yeah, that that'd be the best way to to really watch the talks or go to YouTube and look up R4H. Yeah, and I listened to some of them, and it was really powerful because I'm not really an apologist.

I go out and pray for the sick and pray for them to get healed, and that's how kind of how I do my evangelism in other ways as well. But one of the things that I was thinking about is many people will try to say, okay, the reason people are not coming to Christ is because they think it's an intellectual thing. Like, okay, there's something intellectually that will keep them from wanting to give their lives to Christ. But what I've actually heard, in most cases, some people say it's one of two things: it's either number one, they don't want to give up the sin that they love so much, or number two, what I've heard is they've had a bad experience. Maybe they prayed for somebody and they prayed for somebody to live and they died.

I think the guy who started CNN, Ted Turner, that happened to him, and his little sister, and then he turned away from Christianity.

So they had a bad experience, and so they give up on God, or they love the sin that they're living in. And they don't want to give up that sin.

So, is it an intellectual thing, or is it maybe something else? All the above. Charles Darwin lost his daughter. That was one of the things that drove him away.

So, yeah, I think it's all of the above.

So You know, let's be honest, though. God says to love the Lord your God with all your heart. Yeah. Soul? Mind Strength.

So, our belief really is not just one or the other. And unfortunately, what I see many times in the church is that we'll have the emotion side thing down. I mean, man, got the whole experiential waving the hands excited. But then, if you don't know why you believe, it's easy to take it away. And so I'm challenging people to say, look, God doesn't want you to just know what you believe, but he wants you to know why you believe it.

And that's not Carl Kirby, the apologist, telling you to do that. That's God telling you to study to show yourself approved, to be able to give an answer for the reason for the hope that lies within you with meekness and fear. That's a commandment from God. And unfortunately, way too many Christians can't tell people why they believe. They can tell them what, but they can't tell them why.

And so Satan has been very good. If I can get you to doubt Genesis, the very first book in the Bible. But You want to get people to sell out for John. Oh, love the book of John. I mean, great theology, wonderful teaching.

All of that wonderful theology and teaching in John is predicated on that history in Genesis. And this is where apologetics comes into play. I want you to be able to trust the word of God, as he says, from the first verse all the way to the very last verse. And You can do it. I mean, you really can.

Once you learn how to look at the world through the lens of God's Word, what we see in the world is consistent with what we read in God's Word. But unfortunately, most of us have been taught by the world to think like the world. Then we try to sprinkle some Christian Bible stuff on top of it. But we don't really ultimately know why we believe. We're only an inch thick, and that's easy to destroy.

Yeah, and the Bible says to study to show yourself approved. Is that right? That's right. That's right. Yeah, this is it this is work.

And anybody out there that's listening to this, you understand. If you want something or you want to be good at something, it's going to require effort. It's going to require work. And Christian, our faith, we need to be working at it. I look at the Bereans.

I mean, Acts 17, 11 is such a beautiful picture on how we today should be living our lives. Here, Paul, superstar apostle of the day, right? Dude writes half the New Testament. He comes in, he's starting to preach, and you've got the Bereans who aren't even Christians. They're standing there, they're listening to this guy, and what are they doing?

It says that they took what was being said to them and they compared it to the scripture to see if it was true or not. And then they did that daily. And I think that's a pattern that Christians need to follow. Take what we're hearing. I don't care what source, even including the words coming out of my mouth right now, you take what is being said and you compare it with scripture to see if it lines up.

Because if it doesn't line up, there's a problem. And the problem is not with the word. The problem is with the individual bringing what's going on. they're saying to you and it's it's we have to be critical thinkers we just have to Yeah, and going back to the evolution thing, I think we've always been taught, especially in the last 50 years in school, as kids, that, hey, this is the facts. This is the way things were.

We came from monkeys. We came from apes. But there have now been several Christians, including yourself, who have actually come against this. I don't know if you know a gentleman by the name of Kent Hovind. Have you heard of him?

Yep, I've uh I'm very good friends with his son.

Okay.

And he actually debated three evolutionists at one time and won the debate. Yeah. So maybe it's so maybe it's maybe it's not of a strong, maybe there's not as strong of a case for evolution as we've been taught. I look at it kind of similar to AI. We think AI is like the new latest and greatest thing.

And I'll put it to you like this. AI is 100% confident but it's about 80 to 85 percent accurate. And unless you really know what you're doing, you can get deceived very easily. And that's why one of the things that we do is we take people through zoos, through museums, through aquariums. And I'm talking the secular ones, right?

Because when you know how to walk into these places, using the word of God as your foundation, you can turn any zoo, any museum, any aquarium on this planet into a creation museum, a creation zoo, a creation whatever. You can teach how to apply your faith in that real world because you're going to see signage that is like very bold, very in your face, very dogmatic. But then if you say, okay, what is the actual evidence? I used to use an old Windy's commercial. Where's the beef, right?

The old Windy's commercial. Player would come up there. Where's the beef? That is what Christians have to be. They have to be beef inspectors because you're going to see really cool pictures.

What's the actual evidence to support that picture? Because what most people don't realize is that they don't have. A half, many times not even a tenth of what you see being depicted in the museum exhibits. They don't even have a tenth of it. They have a very tiny piece and they fill in the rest around it.

All you see is the final product that looks very convincing, but you don't know what the actual truth is unless you go dig for it. Yeah. And one of the things that I saw you talking about was where you said that Richard Dawkins, and you showed a video of this in one of your talks where he basically invaded a woman's classroom and surprised her. And I guess she was a Christian. And she started kind of backpedaling.

And, you know, he really caught her off guard.

So I get it. But at one point, she actually said to him, well, what would you say if I gave you and I said that microevolution was actually a real thing? And he said, I would be glad that you said that. But then you took him back to another clip where he actually said the exact opposite. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Oh, I do, I do. Yeah, that see what he had it was Wendy Wright when she was the president of Concerned Women for America. He showed up with a film True and Announced. And it's like, to me, kind of a punkish thing to do, quite honestly, because that's not her area of expertise. I mean, he he won't debate.

Good, solid guys with the solid PhDs on the Christian side. He won't touch those guys, but he'll show up unannounced to go after a lady who's that's not even her area of expertise. And yes, he absolutely contradicted himself. Because Yes, I would love if you did this, but on the other side, if you listen to another source, it won't matter. You're listening to the Truth Network and TruthNetwork.com.

Alright guys, we are back with Carl Kirby. C-A-R-L-K-E-R-B-Y. And what is the website again in case they missed it on the first time, Carl? R F-O-R-H dot com. And if folks would like, man, if they want to text us, if they just do it, send a simple message to 51555.

And in the text message part, they just put in their Adios A D I O S. Space Truth. Don't write out space, just hit the space bar. Audio space truth, the 51555. We'll shoot him a free PDF booklet called Seven Ways to Share Your Faith Without Feeling Like a Goof.

And it's got some fun ways in there to just let's get out and get busy about telling people about Jesus. That's right. And thank you for sharing that. I want to tell you this too. And I'm sure that you already know this.

We can have all of the knowledge in the world. We can have all the ways to kind of talk to people and all of that. But what I've heard many times, Carl, is this: people do not know, people do not care how much you know until they know how much you care. Have you seen that? Oh, it's a great saying.

I put it like this: when it comes to our faith, we need to know it, live it, and share it. Yes, we're called to know why we believe what we say we believe, but you can have all the answers in the world, as you said, and be worthless in the ministry. Because if your life. And your lips aren't in sync. That's called hypocrisy, one of the number one attacks against Christianity.

But guess what? You can have all the answers in the world and live a perfect life. and still be worthless in ministry. Because if you never get to the point where you share Jesus Christ, It's not going to work.

So we need to have all three. That's what God calls us to have. Know it, live it and share it. And when you do that, you do it the way that He calls us to do it, which is to be prepared to give an answer for the reason for the hope that lies within you, but He tells us to do it, to speak the truth. in love.

So nobody does care uh how much you know until they know how much you care. It's a it's a wonderful saying. Pastor used to be here in the Cincinnati area. Oh, I forget his name now, but he was up at a church up uh just across the river from where I live. Yeah, and some of and the one of the issues that I think people have a tough time with, although Manuel, are you there?

Yes, I'm here. Yeah, you had another question about evolution. Go ahead. Yes. The question I had is how does evolution account for the next phase of evolution?

Or if I could rephrase that, where is the human race heading in the evolutionary narrative? That's a fascinating question, man. If you go online and do a search, where will human beings, what will human beings look like in 5 million, 10 million years? Bro, it is crazy. You're going to see us looking like if anybody, I'm old, all right, I'm going to date myself here.

The original Star Trek pilot with the dudes with the big heads that could talk telepathically, no hair, big throbbing veins on the side of their head.

Some people say we're going to look like that.

Well, one wonderful evidence for evolution is that our pinky fingers are getting smaller and our pinky toes are getting smaller.

So eventually we're going to lose our pinky fingers and lose our pinky toes and our eyes are going to get bigger. And it's like, okay, you can see depictions of man looking like the creature from the Black Lagoon because we're going to evolve gills so that we can live in water because the ice melts are going to all melt and the world's going to flood.

So we're going to have to grow gills. You've got all kinds of belief systems on that. But there's a major problem with all of it. The ones with the big heads and the no pinky fingers and no pinky toes, big deal. We have heads right now.

So some of us have big heads and some of us have little heads. A dude with a big head is nothing. It's just a dude with a head. And your eyes got bigger. We already got eyes.

You want to tell me, if you want to really show me that evolution is a fact, show me how we get the creature from the black lagoon dude because he had to grow gills. Humans don't have the genetic trait, they don't have the DNA in their genes to grow gills. We will never grow gills, we will never grow feathers.

So, all these wonderful depictions that look like things out of science fiction look really cool in science fiction, but they're not reality. Yeah, and sometimes I believe, Carl, when people Like these Richard Dawkins, they'll come up and they'll want to debate Christians. And I even saw this in high school and college myself: when somebody was an atheist and they wanted to speak against or debate a Christian, they didn't necessarily play by the rules or play nice. A lot of times they can be nasty. Oh, absolutely.

That's why I say God tells us to speak the truth. In love.

Now, many times we kind of lose it as well because we want to do the love part. But we don't want to speak the truth part. No, we have to speak the truth. And I put it like this: I've had people get extremely angry with me about God and this sort of a thing. And I've used this on many people.

They get angry at me. And I say, excuse me, one second. Let me ask you a question. If you came up to me and said, I believe the moon is made out of green cheese, and you were dead serious, do you think I would get angry at you? And they're like, well, no.

I said, you're right, because you know what? I wouldn't get angry. I'd feel bad for you. I'd say, bro, you need to go do some research. You know, you might want to get some help here.

But I said, the fact that you are getting angry at me, because we're talking about God who you don't even believe exists, and you're getting mad about it. Tells me that you do know there's a God. And by the way, the Bible tells me that you know that there's a God. What you do with that knowledge is what you're going to be held accountable for. And the fact that you're getting wound up about it.

means that there's hope for you, and I'm going to pray for you. I'm not going to get in a fight or argue with you. But you see, why would people get so upset about people if they're truly delusional? You feel bad for people who are delusional, who are just You know, ignoramuses, oh, he's just ignorant, right?

Okay, you don't get mad at those people. You feel bad for them. The fact that they're still getting angry and want to argue about this stuff tells me the Holy Spirit's still doing his job and pricking their hearts. Yeah, and so it's true. If we're that dumb, if we're that crazy, then why are you so angry at us?

Why do you have to come against us and all of that? And so one of the things people say, oh, we're so smart if we believe in evolution or socialism or communism. Oh, by the way, we have a new mayor in New York, Carl.

Well, I know, I know, I know. Oh. I'm at a loss for words. I truly am. But you know what?

What does God tell us it's going to be like before He comes again? Every thought was continually wicked. It's going to be as it was in the days of Noah.

So, guess what, guys? Hang on for the ride. If you love the Lord Jesus Christ, it's going to get crazy, but we're called to be the light. The darker it gets, the brighter we can shine.

So, let stupid go off the rails and be bold and be solid in your faith and just speak the truth and love and represent the Lord Jesus Christ because you're going to shine brighter. Yeah, that's great. And Manuel, you have a question? Yes, one of my questions is something that I've met different people on campus when another apologist came on to the campus and they had that conversation about different people that have different views and different fields of study. And so a question I had was, do you have a word you would give to a Christian that wants to be a scientist, a biologist, the doctor, that wants to go into that field where the majority opinion is of an evolutionary framework?

I am dear friends with guys that are very high level in those fields. I mean, one of my mentors, one of the guys I had the privilege of traveling and studying from, was a guy named David Menton. He passed away a few years ago, but he taught histology at Washington University School of Medicine. Top 3% of medical doctors, he taught them how to be doctors. He was a general editor for Stedman's Medical Journal.

I mean, that's the Bible for medical for doctors, right?

So I would tell any Christian that wants to go into the science field, absolutely. But be prepared because you're going to be under a lot of pressure to conform And not be transformed. They want to conform you to the thinking of the world and going to try to make you feel like you're inferior in some way if you don't believe what the majority of people believe. And I tell people all the time. Look, get an 1828 dictionary.

It's free of charge. Download the app, 1828 dictionary. Type in the word science in an 1828 dictionary. Type in the word science in a modern-day dictionary. When you hear that people say Christians can't do science, creationists can't do science, go look up the word science in an 1828 dictionary.

It talks about God. The creators, the founders of almost every branch of science, weren't just Christians. Many of them were creationists because they said, if you want to understand the Creator, study His creation, you'll learn more about Him because His attributes will be in what He created.

So I tell Christians all the time. Go, study, but make sure you've got a good support base around you because, boy, you are going to have people coming after you and putting pressure on you to reject God. But I think we should be bright lights in those areas. That's a great question. And Carl, I was going to ask you as well.

In one of your talks that I heard, you said that you spoke to somebody who they were an evolutionist and they might have been a professor. And you said, not only you told them why you believed in creation, but I believe you shared the gospel with them as well. And you found out later on that their sister had been sharing the gospel with them. Do you remember that? Yeah, that was over in England, man.

That was crazy. This guy shows up, and he waited till I was done, and then, boom, he was peppering me with questions. And it was good. I mean, it was respectful. I'm okay with people that challenge you.

I mean, we've got to be prepared to give an answer. We've got to know why we believe. And we had this great conversation. And he wrote this really long thing that I found later. It's really kind of cool.

It's like You know, he wasn't what I expected. I was like, okay, he said that. No, he said that to me there. He said, you're not what I expected. I said, what do you mean by that?

He said, I just expected you to be angry because I don't agree with you. I said, man, I don't hate you because you don't think the same way that I do. And we got into this conversation, shared the gospel. And I got an email from him six months later, I think it was maybe five months, but a little bit later. And he said, you don't remember that, realize this, but when you were talking and you were talking about Richard Dawkins and how angry he is and all that kind of a thing.

When I was there at that meeting that you had, I had written on my Facebook page at that time, Richard Dawkins is God.

Well, I've received the Lord Jesus Christ. His sister had been the one that had been witnessing to him and got him to come listen to me speak. The Holy Spirit, of course, gets all of the credit, but this is the impact that we can have, even on our loved ones. They disagree with us, that's okay. Speak the truth in love.

Challenge them to think a little bit, pray for him. Watch what the Holy Spirit can do through simple obedience. Yeah, and many times they're sarcastic and they're kind of nasty. Do you ever respond in a similar way to them? And I'll give you an example.

I heard Norman Vincent Peale, and he many years ago, he was on an airplane with a young man who was, I guess, an atheist. He was a hippie. And the hippie said to him, He said, I, you know, you, who are you? He said, Are you a Christian? And Norman Vincent Peale said, Yes.

And the atheist said, All you Christians are the same. You're boring. You wear these suits. You go to church every Sunday. There's not much to you.

And Norman Vincent Peale turned back and looked at him and he goes, All you hippies are the same. You all have long hair. You all stink. You all got this. You all got that.

And it kind of broke the ice, so to speak. And then they ended up talking and they had a good conversation. As he was leaving, the young Man said, There is just something different about you. What is it? And Norman Vincent Peale, all he said was Jesus.

And as the young man left, Vincent Peale, he kicked himself and he said, Why didn't I explain more to him? But about 10 years later, he saw that same kid who was a hippie. He didn't recognize him. And the kid said, You remember me? And he goes, No, he said, I was that guy on the airplane and now I'm a pastor because you told me that Jesus was a way to change me.

And I've given my life to Christ as well.

So I know that was kind of a long explanation, but no, no. No, it's good. I I honestly, I try to do that because I try to break every stereotype that the non Christians have about us. I'm going to push buttons, I'm going to have fun. One of the things that I'll do is when I see them starting to get angry, You know, I'll do something like when they say something that I disagree with, I say, you closed-minded, intolerant, bigoted, opinionated hick, who do you think you are jamming your opinion down my throat?

You can see their face, man. It goes blank. Dude, that's my line. You can't use that. And then I'm like, okay, now that that's out of the way, because I know you're going to throw that at me as soon as I start telling you the things that I believe.

Can we just get rid of that? Can we just talk? It works. And we'll be right back after this break for the last segment. You're listening to the Truth Network and TruthNetwork.com.

Uh Hey guys, we are back for the final segment with Carl. And one of the Carl Kirby, and one of the things that I was thinking about over the segment is Romans chapter 1, starting in verse 18, Carl and Manuel. When my second son was born, I put this up on Facebook and people really loved it. It's for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and all unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness, because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it. Unto them for the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

Do you mean? Amen. I mean, the Bible is very clear that we are without excuse. Everybody knows that there's a God. What we do with that knowledge is what we will be held accountable for.

So. You know, I do a talk on Pinjillette, Ten Things that a Christian Can Learn on Evangelism from an Atheist. And even in the clip, when Penjillette, who's an ardent atheist, very ardent atheist, he starts talking about I know there's no God. But then in the very next sentence, I stop that and I say, okay, I know there's no God. Let me prove to you that that's wrong.

Because in the very next words that come the very next words that come out of his mouth are, And any person living his life right, right, is like, hold up, hold up. living their life how? Right. Let me ask you a question. Why is being kind nice, sane, polite?

Because those are all the things that he found to be very nice about this individual that spoke with him. He was kind, he was polite. Why are those things right? The the the look, the Christian We have a standard for why we do what we do, what is right, what is wrong. The non-Christian doesn't.

The non-Christian wants the Christian morality, but they don't want the Christian God. You cannot justify the Christian morality apart from the Christian God.

So, when the non-Christian wants to say that, well, see, I know a lot of Christians who are good people, they do good things, they help people. Why are those things good? Because if the truth is, we are nothing more than chemicals that have come together over millions of years, and my wiring, my brain wiring, says taking from people that are weaker than me is the right thing to do. That's right for me. Who do you think you are to tell me that I can't do it?

I do this with the kids all the time. They'll be there with a phone. I'll walk up, take their phone. Thank you for hanging on to my phone for me. Hey, you can't do that.

Why? Because it's not right. Why is it not right? Because it's wrong. Why is it wrong?

Well, it's not right. It's like, guys, I'm bigger. I'm stronger. I'm the teacher. This is mine.

Thank you for hanging on to it. You want the Christian morality, but you can't justify it unless you have the Christian God that gives us the absolutes of right and wrong. And even the non-Christian recognizes that. You know, it's interesting, and I know Manuel has a question just in a second, but Richard Dawkins recently was kind of complaining about the Muslim invasion over in his country, and he said something that was very interesting. Do you know what it was?

Yeah, he he says that he's a cultural Christian. And quite frankly, that's a part of the problem. We have a lot of cultural Christians in America. There's over 400,000 churches across the nation of America. Don't tell me that they're filled with born-again, sold-out Bible-believing Christians, because if we did, we wouldn't see what we see in our world today.

You had 1.2 million Jews in New York. How in the world? Can that happen? How can you elect what you've elected there with that big of a voting block? You take the Christians, you take the Jewish folk.

How in the world could you put somebody like that in charge of you if those folks were living what they actually say they believe? And this is a problem. Cultural Christianity is going to destroy you. Oh, they're conservative. Conservative doesn't mean Christian.

They're two totally different things.

Now, conservatives can be Christian, and Christians should be conservative, but just because one is one doesn't mean that they are the other. Yeah. And Manuel, you got a question? Yeah. So there was like two that I was considering.

One was a comedic one, one was a serious one. But I'll ask a serious one and maybe if we have time, might just for a good closing have a fun one. But I there's two streams of thought that I engage with in my first year of seminar. And it was the thought of creationism and traducianism.

Now I'm not using the word creationism there immediately in context of creation, but the idea the question is, does the soul come from our parents like our physical bodies? Or does God create it at conception? And so, traduceanism would say our souls come from our parents. like a flame setting up another flame. And then creationism would say at conception, God uniquely makes the soul and it in the unique physical material created by the parents.

What's your position on that? I would say that it comes from the point that we're created. God puts the soul in, that the soul isn't something that's passed from the human parents. The soul is something beyond that. That's something that God.

uh produces and gives. Yeah, and then man, well you had it. What was your funny question? Funny one is, did Adam and Eve have belly buttons? You know, that's an interesting question because I told you about my mentor that I love traveling with, Dr.

David Menton. He dissected more human bodies than I probably met, right? This guy. Was that kind of a guy? And he said, Carl, I loved having meals with him.

He was such an Oh, he's a wealth of knowledge, fun guy, musician, magic. He did all kinds of, just very eclectic, right? And he said, you know, Carl, people ask me that question: Did Adam and Eve have a belly button? And he said, I would tell you this. I have studied the human body not from the outside in, but from the inside out.

And we look at the human body and think that the belly button is nothing more than a visible sign that they were once connected to an umbilical cord, and so therefore, no, they wouldn't have one because they didn't go through the birth process like we do today. But he said, if you look at the body from the inside out, On the inside, your belly button is a major connecting point for all of your stomach muscles. And so he said it's a very important design feature.

So he would argue. That yes, they did have belly buttons because it was a part of the design feature to make our bodies function properly. Um You know, it's not a hill that I would die on either way that you go. I understand the arguments on both sides. But I kind of lean towards Doc Menton.

I mean, the guy was kind of sharp and I think that maybe he was onto something, that it was designed that way, and today we see it as the. Exterior you know, visible sign that we were once conn uh connected to our mother. Yeah, that's a good question. And one of the things that I was thinking about as well is as time goes on, we want to learn as much as we can learn. We want to study to show ourselves approved.

And we want to always have an answer for anybody who comes to us with a reason asking for the hope that we have within us.

However, if I have the greatest car in the world and I never get in the car and drive it, it's not going to do me any good. I can have the greatest map or the greatest GPS in the world, but if I never use it, it's never going to do me any good. We can have all the answers in the world, but if we never go out there and share our faith, it's not going to do anybody any good. If somebody's out there today and they want to share their faith, how would you start? You know, I'm a guy that's honestly, I'm an introvert.

I have a very difficult time talking to people that I don't know unless the gospel is involved. When it comes to the gospel, now I can talk to people. I use a lot of bracelets There's a ministry called Threads of Hope, phenomenal ministry. A village in the Philippines makes bracelets, and a missionary went there a number of years ago, make the long story shorter. started buying bracelets from them.

Over three hundred families make their living now. All the bad stuff that happened before doesn't happen because now they have jobs.

Well, they sell one that's a gospel bracelet, and the young people and the older people make that and so because they're a simple design. I will Handout Conservatively ten thousand. Of those gospel bracelets this year will have handed out. I just do it every year because I'm sitting on an airplane, I check into a hotel, my waiter, my waitress, I got a free gift for you from the Philippines. Would you take it?

Yeah, I tie the bracelet on, I tell them the story about the village in the Philippines, and then I transition. It has the five colors that you can share the gospel message with them. If you do download our app, go to presentation tools and scroll down, you'll see Threads of Hope gospel bracelets. And inside there, you'll see me giving the story of the village and the background and how I'd share it. But then there's a card on there that has the Bible verses with the colors, and there's a link to Threads of Hope so that you can actually buy them.

And if you promise to give them away, they sell them to you for a very reasonable price. But I use the gospel bracelet, but that booklet that we're offering, seven ways to share your faith without feeling a goof, if they text us, just text us on 51-555. And in the message, just write Adios, A D I O S Space Truth. and we'll know that it's coming from this program, and we'll get you a link to that PDF booklet. I use tattoos.

I use humor. I've got little videos on my phone where I sit down next to somebody and I'll ask them, Hey, have you had a good laugh today? What? Have you had a good laugh today? Oh, man.

I mean, people are grumpy, right? And then I'll show them this goofy video of a rooster crowing until it passes out. I mean, these are real videos. And it's like they get a chuckle, and then all of a sudden, we're just talking. Evangelism is a conversation, not a presentation.

Just talk to people. It's amazing what you can find out. Yeah, and I love that. One of the things that Dwight L. Moody said is there was a woman who came up to him and she said, D.L.

Moody, she said, I don't like the way you're preaching the gospel. I don't like the way you're doing evangelism. I think you need to change a lot of ways that you're doing something. And I don't know if you remember how he responded to her. But he said this, go ahead.

He said, ma'am, he said, I agree. There's a lot that I could work on. He said, however, I like my way of doing something better than your way of doing nothing at all. Amen. I had a young man come up to me when I first started to ministry.

He was like 20 years old. And he said, God told me to tell you, you do not have the gift of teaching. And I looked at him and I said, wow, that's interesting because God told me to do what I'm doing.

So I think I need to listen to my God, not yours. I hope you have a great night.

Sometimes there's just no nice way to get out of something, you know? But yeah, no, I remember that. And that's a great response. We can all do something. Conversation is so simple, you don't have to make it complex.

Yeah, and one of the things that we do is we, if we can make people laugh, a lot of times they'll listen to us. I know I've been in sales for a long time, and they used to tell us: be funny, make money.

So if you're funny, you can make people laugh. A lot of times they'll listen to you with the gospel. Tell us again before we leave what your website is and how people can get in touch and listen to you. R F O R H. And you can get the app at the same thing: R4FORH.

Just look for those five letters, and I pray that you're blessed. Thank you for coming on today, Carl. Truth to what lies?