Welcome to the Jim Jackson Show. We got a massive story that broke in the NBA as it involved gambling. That has taken down a head coach, a current head coach, of course, Chauncey Phillips, an active player in Terry Rogier, and a former player. and Damon Jones. And this is pretty close to me because I'm very good friends with Chauncey Bellows, but also Damon Jones.
I really don't know Terry that well, but That's not the case. The league is in crisis mode. And there's only one person, tell me one person on earth who truly knows what it's like. On the inside of a scandal like this. He was a NBA referee for 13 years.
He spent 15 months, 15 months in prison for providing inside information. on his own games. He's been called a criminal. He's been called a scapegoat, everything in the book. But today, we'll find out what he calls himself.
We're joined by former NBA official referee Tim Donneg. Tim, what's up, my man? I'm doing great, Jimmy. Thanks for having me. No, I mean, thanks for coming on.
And I know you've been running the circuit, especially. Since uh You know, a lot of this stuff broke. And the first thing that I thought about to this was like, when you heard the news, when you heard the news, What was the first thing that went through your mind? Yeah, overdue. I mean, I knew back you know, 20 years ago when I was involved that This was going on.
I knew my case was bigger than what it was led to be in the media. And it's a situation where You know, gambling is very prevalent in the NBA, as you well know, just being around it your whole life.
So it's just something that I thought, you know, took a long time for it to resurface and come out, but I knew it. one time or another, another scandal would hit.
So, let's walk through this a little bit, and we're going to dive into, of course, the history with you. And what happened back during your case in NBA, because it's all relevant to what's going on today.
Okay, because. We're looking at Was it two to three different scenarios? You have the poker. Scheme as far as the game being rigged. Terry Rogiere.
Kind of playing an intricate role and taking himself out of a game and then the Damon Jones.
So kind of. if from your view when you look at the three kind of items that we're talking about here And I want to preface this by saying this. It's very interesting that the Terry Rogier. gets lumped in at the same time the announcement with The Chauncey Bills with the poker, but Damon Jones. with the inside information.
That Terry's gets all lumped into this big announcement. All together. Walk me through in your mind kind of how all of this comes together. You know, I think obviously one of these guys that's in this indictment. Was obviously arrested at some point and became a cooperating witness and sat down and gave the feds a lot of information that really led to this point.
And I think it's just the tip of the iceberg in regard to all these other guys that are going to be sitting in the hot seat, so to speak, and they're going to be able to try to tell what they were involved in and what they did to maybe reduce their sentence a little bit. These guys are looking at. Definitely time in federal prison and I can tell you firsthand. That it's not a fun time. It's not fun being in the hot seat when you have United States attorneys and FBI agents pointing their fingers at you, screaming and yelling at you.
And uh it's something where you know you're you're about to possibly be a cooperating witness for the government to try to reduce your you know, long stint in prison. And that's something I'm really not proud of. But it's something that I felt that I had to do because I had four daughters at home. That I had to support, and I had to find a way to minimize and reduce my time away from them and figure out a way to get back out there and support them.
So these guys are in a very, very difficult. situation and they're going to have to make some real difficult choices in how they're going to move forward. I agree with you on that, but the difficult choices. And in your case, too. And the beauty about America, even though sometimes it's skewed, sometimes People look at it differently is that you're innocent until proven guilty.
And that's the fact. With Chauncey with Terry Rogier and also Damon Jones. But you recently talked about this that. Because you have a friend who's an FBI. Um person that had some updated news on the case.
Can you kind of share a little bit of what Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't really consider him a friend. I have several agents that I. You know, continue to communicate with. In fact, on one interview, I called him a friend and he actually got a little bit upset with me because I guess it didn't look good for his image. You know, these guys are, you know, Thinking that this is going to be definitely bigger than what it is right now.
Like I said, these guys are going to sit down and they're going to tell everything they know, possibly. Of who they did it with and what they actually did. And I think that they're gonna send agents out all over the country as they did in my case and try to collaborate what they said and see if there's bigger cases and more people that are involved in this and more people that need to be charged. And I would think just from the outside looking in and knowing a little bit about. You know, the history of how they operate and what they do, I would think that, you know, more people are going to get drug into this.
And it's going to be more damaging to the NBA.
Well, and I'm glad you brought Amia because you said this. that unlike your case, The NBA is not going to be able to cover it up. What do you mean by that? Unlike your case, the NBA can't cover it up. You know, what people don't realize is in my situation, David Stern was an extremely powerful guy.
And he really ran that whole investigation. He was somebody that was in constant communication with the United States Attorney. We found out after the fact that a guy by the name of Greg Andres, who was the head Attorney for the Eastern District of New York. Three months after I went to jail, he left. The United States Attorney's Office went and took a job as an attorney for an outside.
Uh you know, legal firm and ended up getting business from the NBA.
So. There were situations where David Stern offered Phil Scala, who was the lead investigator. From the FBI, he offered him a job in the security department.
So, David Stern was able to really get to the people he needed to get to to shut this thing down at the highest levels. And it was actually, you know, kind of disheartening because I felt like I was in there trying to do the right thing, trying to tell the truth. And then at the end, you had a United States attorney that stood up there and said that all my allegations didn't hold water. But then you have FBI agents telling me there were six or seven people that they felt should have been indicted and it was shut down at the highest level. It was just kind of very disheartening to me because I felt like I was doing the right thing.
And I regretted that. I regretted being a cooperating witness for the government because of that. And I wish I hadn't. I wish I would have done maybe a little bit of extra time in jail as difficult as that would have been. uh to not have that label associated with me.
But you know. Unfortunately, we all know you can't turn back time. And if I could turn back time, I'd probably be still running up and down the court. With the greatest athletes of the world, something that you were a part of for many years.
Well, listen, you said something the key there. You said you were trying to tell the truth. Either you are or you're not. You know what I mean? What.
No, I was telling you, but I'm saying, but that word trying, is there something that prevented you from telling everything? Or did you tell everything and your attorney said you can't do? Because that, to me, is very interesting. No, I told everything. I was, to be honest with you, scared to death.
When my first initial meeting with the United States Attorney and the FBI, they put me in a room all by myself as my attorneys met with them in a different room. And I'm sitting in this room all by myself, and stacked to the ceiling were hundreds of boxes, all marked John Gotti trial. There was a whiteboard with crimes that might have pertained to me, which were gambling five to 10, money laundering five to 10, racketeering five to 10.
So I'm sitting in this room all by myself. I'm thinking, man, I'm absolutely fucked. I'm going to do 25 years in jail. And then before I could really get my thoughts together. They all entered the room and Phil Scala.
reached his hand across the table and I thought he was going to shake my hand. And he pointed right in my face and he said, you see that fucking chair you're sitting in? That's the same fucking chair John Gotti sat in. I got fucking John Gotti. You think you're going to lie to me?
Get the fuck up and leave right now.
So, you know, with that, I was scared to death. And, you know, I knew that I was in a bad, bad situation. And I was going to tell the truth with what I did and how I did it. And I knew being briefed by my attorney, John Laura, that. You know, going in there and meeting with them, you know, you can't lie.
It's not just telling a little bit of the truth, it's giving them all the facts and everything that you did. And, you know, it's one of those situations where you're hoping for forgiveness.
Well, in Terry's case, and we'll go back to that because that's kind of the one that kind of caught the headlines before. The NBA let him go, and I'm gonna come back to that. But in his case, Terry is it gave information early. to someone, some friends or whatever, with an injury and leaving the game early. How does that compare to the information that you kind of gave and you used about player health or about referee assignments?
You know, I think in Terry's situation, that's a... Waiting. Fixing of a prop bet, right? When you know he's probably gonna maybe score 20 points and he's saying, I'm gonna leave that game early. I'm definitely not gonna, you know, score 20 points.
Take the under and you're gonna win.
Now, in our situation, you know, I was just giving them information. These are the professional gamblers associated with organized crime. That maybe we were going to crack down on illegal screens with Yao Ming or traveling in the post on. Know a certain player, and that was going to put a team at an advantage or a disadvantage. I'm not going out and saying this team's definitely going to do this, we're going to do this so that a bet wins.
You know, it was always a situation where they had an advantage and maybe the line was off by three or four points, but it was never a situation where the fix was in.
So I think there's a major difference. In what he did and what I did. And I think he's gonna be in a lot more hot water moving forward because of what he did. Yeah, and it's interesting too because it's a distinction between the two because the prop betting is a big thing, okay? With regards to individuals in quarters and halves and how.
that affects the game itself.
So, but It's interesting too because it's two different dynamics we're dealing with: the NBA investigation and then the FBI, the federal government. The NBA basically said we didn't find enough to prevent Terry Rogier from continuing to play, and they allowed it to go on. But their investigation means are not the same as The FBI.
So even though he was... Kind of, I'm not going to say generated here by the NBA, the FBI still continues with their investigation. What's the difference between the two? I think the NBA didn't want to find him guilty, right? The damage that would have been caused.
You know, with the Dante Poor situation, you know, prior to that.
Now, here's another player. How many other players are involved? I think it was in their best interest. to say that he wasn't guilty of quote fixing a prop bet. just like it was in their best interest to squash that I was the one bad apple, that nobody else did anything, that everything I said that was going on on the floor that the referees were doing was something that didn't take place, right?
They wanna uphold the integrity of the game because if you don't have the integrity of the game with the officials and the players, what do you actually have? You really have pro wrestling at that point.
So, you know, it's important for the NBA to come out and say, oh, no, you know, he didn't do anything wrong. It was a situation where we did an exhaustive investigation and we didn't find that he was really guilty of this. But what they didn't count on was that the FBI was going to continue to push the envelope, was going to continue to dig deeper in this, and that it was going to blow up into what it did. I got you.
So, the new investigation involves four crime families: the Bonano, Genovese, Gambino. And I think it was one more Um New Chessee, right?
So, were these families also involved during the time of? Your investigation when things went down With your case? No, the only family that was involved was the Gambino crime family. And Phil Scala, he was the supervisory special agent in charge of the agents that were always basically having their eye on the Gambino crime family.
So, in my case, the people that I dealt with, and it was just involved in the Gambino crime family. You know, we've later found out that, you know, there were bets placed all over. The world in regard to gambling sites, and there were millions and millions of dollars that were being passed around. Just like in this situation, you hear that there was only $200,000 supposedly on that game. God knows what these, you know, you tell somebody, he tells somebody, and it just continues to go down the line.
And the big money is bed overseas and that's what the case was with my whole story. And I'm sure that there was a situation here where some of these guys were taking this information and being able to put big money down overseas. Because in America, you really can't get that much money down. There's stop gaps that are in order, especially out in Vegas, where once you hit a certain amount of money, you can't get any more money down on that. They really can take the game off the board.
But overseas, it's a situation where they can get big, big money down. And I'm sure that that was taking place in this situation also.
Well, you said this too. It's like at a point you say, okay, listen, man, I got to get out of this. I can't continue to do this. And I know you thought about that and you said that. But then comes the case that No.
Once you're in, you're in, there's no getting out. And it's crazy because you watch a lot of movies and mom movies and. People want to get one lick real quick and say, I'm going to make a quick decision, but I want to get out. Once you're in, you're in.
Now, you got involved in a situation where. I think your handlers got changed or whatever, and you wanted to get out. But then you had somebody come and see you, right? Yeah, somebody right. I wanted to figure it out.
I figured, you know, enough was enough. I'm not going to do this. What am I doing here? And then it was a situation where a high school friend of mine said he was going to come down and meet me at a restaurant in Philadelphia at a hotel. And they came down and picked me up, and he had somebody else with him.
And there was a guy that was an associate with the Gambiano crime family. And he basically told me that he knew what I had been doing for years and I was going to continue to do it because at that time, you know, we were stopping doing it. If we didn't continue to give him the picks that he was gonna expose me to the NBA, because he knew in my contract, I wasn't allowed to place a bet of any kind, or worse yet, have somebody visit my wife. And kids in Florida.
So he wanted to continue to get those picks. And in my demented mind, I thought to myself, okay, I'll give him the picks. There's three months left in the season. And then when this year is over, you know, it's gonna be the end of it. You know, I explained that to the FBI agents, and they kind of laughed and chuckled at me.
And they said they were making so much money off you. They were never going to let you go. If you didn't continue to give them the picks in the future, they would end up killing you. Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows homes, so you don't have to.
Don't know the difference between matte paint finish and satin? Or what that clunking sound from your dryer is. With thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro. You just have to hire one. You can hire top-rated pros, see price estimates, and read reviews, all on the Thumbtac app.
Download today.
So, could you relate to this? And again, I'm not saying that. Any of these parties are guilty, okay? But from your perspective, you said you came to a point where you wanted to get out and you wanted to stop. The moral compass part I'm sure probably kicked in.
And you probably said to yourself, this is not right. But at one point, you justified to yourself that this was the right thing to do for whatever reason. And then at some point you got into it. It was a little bit deeper, and you said, you know what, I gotta get out. What was that tipping point for you, even though you couldn't do it?
But that tipping point that said to yourself. Man, I got to stop this. Just the feeling that I started to get, you know, I had done it for three years, giving, you know, buddies of mine tips and kind of just gambling all the time. And just I kept getting this feeling in my stomach, like, you know, your clock's ticking, you know, something's going to happen here and it's not going to be good.
So I just had that feeling that I needed to stop. And when I got that real feeling in my stomach, it was a situation where. You know, when I wanted to stop and we did stop for a period of time. That these guys were profiting so much money off it that they wanted that to continue and they weren't gonna let it stop. You know, just think about millions and millions of dollars.
Being made for the Gambino crime family. And they don't give two rats' asses about me, right? Who I am or what I'm associated with. You just want that money to keep flowing in, and they want that money flowing in at all costs. You know, whatever they needed to do to keep that going is what they were going to do.
Well, I mean, it's interesting now because it was such a. What's the word or definition I want to use? You talked about betting back in the day. That was like, oh, you can't talk about that. You can't.
You know, I know they talked about some different things with Brent Musberger was calling the lines on TV when he was when he was calling football games. But with Betty now legal and partner with all the leagues. Is it easier or harder to corrupt a game? Let's say in 2025 than it was in 20. I mean 2005.
I think it's a little harder now just because they have stopgaps in place for when an enormous amount of money gets put on a game and they move the line and it still goes in that direction. I think it's a little bit harder now. It's not that. You know, noticeable back in the day, plus, there was a lot of underground betting going on.
So, I think it's probably a little bit more difficult today. But I also think that, you know. It's a lot more. In your face today, and with the apps and the websites, and you know, everybody's doing it type of thing.
So, you know, you can kind of distance your name from it a little bit if you really still wanted to do it. I think it's a situation where if the same guy wins. You know, more than he loses. And we all know how. difficult it is to win at gambling.
You know, you win 57, 58% of the time. You know, you're doing well. And in my case, we were winning 70 to 80% of the time. And I'm sure in this situation, once those odds started to kick up, red flags were going to be out. And it was probably going to be somewhere where somebody started to look at things a little bit deeper.
Well, to your point, and I was saying this: with Terry Rozier's case, it was what, 200,000, all of a sudden. Got put on the prop bet. In March in the game that didn't count.
So that just. automatically Sent signals, I mean, flares in the air that something was going on.
So that's the protection mechanism that you're talking about. And the problem is, is that gambling. has always been a part of sports. I mean, go all the way back to the Black Sox, you know, that that what they were called before. you know, throwing the World Series.
So How do you get around it? And you talked about this: the bigger part of the case. But the bigger part of Where gambling is going.
So you kind of predicted the next big scandal would be probably in college sports. Given that, you know, the new bus was in the NBA. What's the problem? Still waiting to explode in college sports.
Now we've seen, we've seen, that's preference it, we've seen in college sports. Point shaving. You know, in particular in basketball, we've seen it before. But what's bigger now? Yeah, I think that the The possibility of a bigger scandal is coming at the college level because you were a star, you knew you were gonna go to the NBA, you knew you were gonna make a lot of money.
But how about that guy that's maybe the third or fourth player on a team? Or it's not at a real. Powerhouse, Division I school, and One of these crime family guys goes to them and says, Listen. You got two kids at home. You got your mother working two jobs.
You know, you're favored by 15 tonight. Why don't you just win by 10, 11, 12, or 13? Here's 50 grand. Let's do that 10 times this year. You know, let's have you leave college with 500 grand in your pocket to get you a great start in life.
I think that's where the next scandals happen. I think it's going on today. I think it's happened many times in the last couple of years. I think it's gonna. Possibly happen in the future.
And it's a situation where these kids are going to try and take advantage of the opportunity to leave school with some money in their pocket because they're not going to be able to go to that next level and profit.
Well, let me push back a little bit. If it was 10 years ago, I would say yes. But with NIL, and and players being able to make millions right now in college. in particular to set a line, let's say at under two and a half or the over. The main guys got to participate in on the court to either affect The numbers positively or negatively, right?
So the director. But maybe you're like I said, I'm the third guy, fourth best player on the team, and maybe I'm not feeding Jimmy Jackson the ball. Maybe I'm the point guard. But he's getting attempted. He's getting money right now.
NIL, the fourth guy, may be making. 400,000, 300,000. You see what I'm saying now with NIL. As much as we talk about NIO as a bad thing, could it be a positive thing in college sports? Because now there's less of a chance, especially for the players that really have some meat in the game that can affect the game, they're getting paid off the court.
Right, I think if you if you make them all paid maybe evenly, but you know, there's also a situation where you know, maybe uh, and I hate to keep using your name, and I'm not using your name because I know of anything in the past, but let's say Jimmy Jackson's out the night before a game, and it's his birthday, and he's doing shots, and you know, he's he's not, you know. Know, going to be at the top of his game tomorrow. That's all that information is valuable, but maybe he hurt his knee in practice the day before. All this information is something that at the right time and right opportunity, you can pick up the phone and pass that along to somebody, and they can make an enormous amount of money from it.
So it's always there. I think really you got to educate these kids, let them know how important it is to have that inner circle close and tight and stay away from certain people in certain situations because. There's always that line that you're near, that you shouldn't be, that you don't want to cross. I think the warning should be out there to these kids to make sure that they stay far away from this because. You know, greed's a powerful thing.
And sometimes, you know. Rules don't apply to people with power and money, and you always sometimes want a little bit more.
So you never know. You know, I was weak when it came to that situation, and I just wouldn't want to see one of these kids at the college level, you know. Getting involved in something like that. You know, Tim, as a player, you know, we never knew the extent about some biases, but we kind of felt it at times.
Now, I'm even going back to high school. You know, you got players all the time that say, oh, Ref, you're cheating. You know, what are you doing? This was in high school. This was in college.
And, of course, this was in the league. And I played in that era. Were there discussions among refs in the locker room before a game like, you know, we got to give Shaq the benefit of the doubt? Keep an eye on Rashid, or we got to stick it to Alan Ivers. And is this, you know, were those things relevant in the locker room with the officials?
You know, Jimmy, more than you could ever imagine. I know you had a good personality back in the day. You were one of those guys that always had the smile, wasn't likable. But, you know, there were people that, you know, like Rashid, that, you know, referees couldn't stand. We used to bet, you know, $20 or $50 in a locker room to see who would give them the first technical foul.
There were always situations where somebody would say, you know, I'm going to help this guy. The last time I had him, I had a couple fouls on him. I shouldn't have after looking at the tape.
So I got to, you know, take care of him tonight. Always relationships that were positive or negative between referees and coaches, referees and players, and referees, and even owners that spilled out onto the floor. And I used that information, unfortunately, to profit. And if a line was four or five points, these relationships would maybe make it, in my mind, eight or nine or ten points. You know, it was a situation where, yes, no secret that Joe Crawford didn't like, you know.
Cuban, he didn't like Tim Duncan. You know, there were situations with Javi and Alan Iverson. And, you know, those things, when we discussed it, you know, spilled out onto the floor. in a situation with Iverson and Jabby, he threatened him one night. The NBA fined 20 grand.
Who threatened who? What's that? Who threatened who? Alan Iverson threatened Javi in a game. Javi ended up.
Give him a technical foul, throwing him out, and then. It was reported, and that the league fined out Iverson 20 grand. We felt that he should have been suspended.
So I had him in one of the next games, and we were in the locker room. Said, we're going to stick it to him. Let's call palming violations on him tonight. He palms the ball every night. Nobody ever calls it.
Let's just enforce it tonight. We all went out. We all took turns calling a palming violation on him. You know, when he goes to the basket, he was getting hit, and we weren't calling it. And right near the end of the game, he comes up to me.
Real nonchalant, he said, Hey, Tim, how long is this going to go on for? And I looked him right in the eye and I said, I don't know what you're talking about. And he laughed. He goes, You know what I'm talking about. and he just kind of shook his head and walked away from me so You know, it was a situation where this was discussed a lot.
Personalities with referees and players conflicting had a lot to do with how the whistle was blown out on the floor. You know, that's interesting too, because We always talk about the purity of the game in playing, but We're Officials are human like anybody else. Again, and officials carry grudges like anybody else. Um we've seen that um who is it that they always talk about Chris Paul? And that he is the one to get high.
Yeah, Scott Foster. That's Foster. I mean, that thing has been. You know, people can discount it, but it is something there where. Every time Scott officials a game or reference a game.
Something for Chris Paul doesn't go right, but. It's It's one of those things where, as a player, you really say it, but you don't want to believe it. But it's something inside of you kind of know. that this official just has it out for me and you control. A lot of that, what happens to me as a player.
Now, the difference between your case and maybe what they're talking about with. Terry Roger, and you pointed this out. You didn't influence the score or anything like that. You didn't. manipulate the game in order to have a outcome for whoever was benefiting from it.
So you may have had a, what you're saying is you may have had a dislike. for a player may not have called a call or put them in fou trouble. But that didn't lead to what you were doing from the inside information perspective, correct? Right, but here's the thing with the NBA, and you know this, it's so subjective. for uh you know block charges Rule enforcement, and it's really enforced based on the name sometimes on the front and the back of the jerseys, you know, rather than how the violations take place on the floor.
And you as a player and a good player, I'm sure you walked out. Out onto the floor. And the first thing you do is you look to see who's officiating. You know, if you have a good relationship with that official, if you feel you get a good whistle from him, or if you feel like you don't. And that happened, you know, all the time, you know, when it came to officials and players.
And, you know, it's something that really has to be taken out of the game. These rules have to be enforced. Based on the rules that are written in the rule book, not based on the names from the front and the back of the jerseys. And we even see last night, I don't know if you saw this highlight, but the guy from Milwaukee. You know, the star player, Giannis, he took seven, six or seven steps with the ball last night.
And Reggie Miller flat out said, He said, Hey, listen, if I was able to do this back in the day, I would have played till I was 50. And he laughed. But, you know, it's the truth. Certain players are allowed to do certain things, and certain players aren't. But in that lifestyle, it's like.
The leader of a band, a rock band, can get away with certain things the other band members can't. I don't care if it's if the CEO of the company, because he's running things, making the money, can get away with certain things. Not to say it's right or wrong, not to say what they're doing is right or wrong, but You know, the younger kid in the family who's the youngest gets away with things that the older kid or the middle child couldn't. I mean, it's across the board, so it's not just sports, but since we're talking about sports, there are. likable players that also get the benefit of the doubt.
And they're just like players that, you know, will always get You know, the whistle, so to speak. And it's interesting because I had my interactions with the NBA early because. Of my holdout. I mean, my holdout with the Mavericks was the longest ever. As a rookie because the Mavericks didn't want to pay my contract.
And I always thought I had. It was an issue with the NBA because it kind of put a stain on the NBA at the time. that this rookie held out and we were going to do a collusion lawsuit against the NBA. Because David Stern, we had caught wind. that he had told the owners, you can't pay these uh rookies these kind of contracts.
And that's called collusion.
So we finally got our deal done, but I always felt it was this cloud hovering over me because of that. And I know. And I've been in meetings since I was part of the union with David Stern.
So I got a chance to see him in action, you know, behind the closed doors, behind the veil. And you got to say something to you. And I'm sorry for interrupting you. But the guy that was in charge of the investigation told me, and I'm going to quote him so there's no misunderstanding here: David Stern was as ruthless and as evil as any mob boss he investigated.
So that just goes to tell you what type of individual he was right there. And for him to do what he did, and he was very smart. He was a genius. He was always one step ahead of everybody. And he was one step ahead of the FBI by leaking.
the whole story to the New York Post, get that out in the public so that. I wasn't able to, not that I wanted to, but wire up and tape somebody else because, you know, and I know you'll probably laugh when I say this thing, Dick Bovetta, for Christ's sake, he did whatever he wanted to do on the floor. I love Dickie, man. He said he was on game sixes to force game sevens. And I mean He seemed like somebody's grandfather out there.
Because I got a chance. I was fortunate. I played with all, like, a lot of the old school officials.
Okay, so I got a chance to kind of. See the old school, the old guard kind of ushering the new guard. And then the newer guard and the older officials to me, I mean, whatever they were doing, they were doing. But it seemed like we were able to have, even though they may have their ways, we had conversations with these guys. They had conversations with us.
Sometimes we didn't like it, sometimes we didn't. But don't tell me Dick Viveta. Come on, man. God, let me tell you something. Dick Viveta, he did more things in games that you could, you know, if you go look at his history, I mean, he screwed Portland in that game six or game five with the Lakers.
He screwed Sacramento Kings in that game five in LA that was a famous game in 2002. I mean, Sacramento should have a ring on their finger. And because of what he did, thinking that he was doing the right thing, forcing a game seven for the league was the best thing to do. And, you know, and even David Stern, we talked about the arrogance of the guy on national TV. I'll never forget they said to him, what would be your ideal matchup in the NBA finals?
And this guy has the balls to say the Lakers versus the Lakers and smiles. I mean, he did what he wanted to do what was ever going to bring that global attention. Through the league, which was going to really bring the bottom line up. And he really didn't care how the games were officiated or how they looked. But, Tim, let me ask you this.
Games six and seven. But let me ask you this.
Okay, say an official. favors a team. Is that coming from him personally or is that coming from higher? I think what it does is this is what they used to do. Say there was a playoff game and the team was up two games to none.
And I write about this in my book. Famous Houston, Dallas. Sears, I forget what the year was, but. Houston had won the first two games in Dallas.
Okay, so now we go to Houston. I'm on game three. Was that Tracy McGrady, Yao Ming? No, yes, was that the outmain was the target?
Okay, so now we're in the locker room, and somebody from the league office comes in and says, Hey, listen. We want you to crack down on Yao Ming setting screens in the post. Traveling in the post, and 10 things, and maybe one or two things against Dallas. And we left that meeting saying, holy shit, they want. You know, they want Dallas to win because Cuban was complaining.
And for whatever reason, you know, they didn't want to sweep and they didn't want Houston to win the next two games.
Well, Dallas wins the next two games in Houston and ends up winning in seven games. And Van Gundy absolutely blows a gasket because he gets word about what the league came in and did starting in game three of that season. Series, and he ended up getting fined $100,000, one of the biggest fines ever. Everybody knew from that standpoint that it was going on. It was just, you hoped it wasn't going against you.
Yeah, it's it. That's. I remember that series because I was in Houston 04, 05. Uh, 506 before I went to Phoenix, but that was before they got to that. I remember watching.
I was traveling doing something. I remember watching that series, and it was some things going on. You know, in that series, that kind of had my head scratching a little bit. But, you know, as a player, you don't, you don't. Again, I this is how I think.
I can't talk about every player. Always thought the purity of the game was the purity of the game. You go play it. Yes, you're going to have some. you know, conflicts with the with the officials and you know, some biases, but at the end of the day, the players Win the game or lose the game.
And in some cases, unfortunately, that's not the actual case, you know? And the. Theory that the officials control the games and everybody's outside talking about it. You want to dispel that. But what you're saying is that there are times where the influence from upstairs.
basically trickles down on the floor and does have an effect on the game. No doubt. And in that situation, let's just say, you know, I'm a younger referee. This, I think, believe it was a second-round playoff game. I want to get to the third round, right?
So I'm in a referee in a playoff series, and I'm getting graded by this guy that's coming in and telling you what to do out on the floor that night. You're going to go above and beyond and do what he's telling you to do because you want a great grade. You want to go to the next round of the playoffs and you want to make another, you know, $30,000.
So, of course, you know, you're going to do what he says. And he's the one putting the grades in. You know, whatever he tells you to do, you're going to do it. And that is that Oh, man. It's so much to this, man.
And I think about your case, too. Tim, and with and we're going to continue to touch on what's going on currently in the NBA, but I wanted to touch on this from a family perspective because each of these individuals that are being named right now have families, whether it's a wife and children. The most important thing that people don't realize is how important that is. And in my case, I remember going in my kids' bedrooms and seeing them all sleeping, and I'm thinking, man. Did I really screw up these kids' lives moving forward?
How am I going to dig my way out of this? And it was devastating to me. It was really, really devastating.
So, unfortunately, for selfish reasons, you know, I wanted to cooperate with the government to get. Mm-hmm. Through this, the best I can, and be in a situation where I can help support them again. And I'm sure that that is going to be the same situation with a lot of these guys.
Well listen, if you're how close were you with your father? Very close. My dad was a referee at your game, a top college basketball referee, did the final four: 93, 94, 95. Yeah.
So how did, and that's why I wanted to get to it, because you were very close. He was highly respected. NCAA official. When this went down. What was that conversation like between the two two of you?
Awful. And in fact, you know, I called my dad on Father's Day, wish him a happy Father's Day. And after about a five-minute conversation, he said to me, what's wrong? You don't sound right. And I felt like, you know, that was my opportunity because the investigation.
you know, was going on for about two weeks at that point. And I had to tell them, you know, what was going on. And the college game is way different than the NBA in the fact that. You know, um The NCA officials know that the NBA is basically a form of entertainment, and things are let go. People are, you know, taking care of star players.
So he was like, I don't really know what you did wrong by telling somebody, you know, this. And I said, Dad, there's a lot more to it that's going to come out, but I'm in a lot of trouble. And it was the. you know most sickest Feeling that you could ever have in your stomach when you have to tell, you know, a parent or a spouse. You know, what you did something terribly wrong, and it was gonna not only affect you, but the people that you love the most.
So, in my case, you know, my parents, my brothers, my children.
So, you know, it was awful. How'd your kids handle it? You know, my kids, you know, not phone wood, you know, got through it. They're all part of my lives today. They all were able to, you know, kids are resilient, as the famous quote goes, and they were able to fight through it and they're strong.
And, you know, I think we became closer and better, you know, because of everything.
So, you know, I was very fortunate because. I had. Great family support. Friend support, but there are situations where you come out of that federal prison system and people don't have that, and it's just tough to. You know, recovering it, it's very, very difficult on people and families.
Well, that's important, too. I think you made a statement. It's you go in. One way. family intact or whatever it may be, despite what happened, you may have some you know different points of views and some people are going to be upset no doubt They say sometimes time heals all wounds, whether that's true or not, it may.
But it seems like because you kind of went. You know Arms open, heart open. You told your family. They accepted that you win did your time. But then after prison, There's their aftershock.
Okay, now what do I do? Who am I? Where am I at? I have a felony on my jacket. I can't do what I really want to do.
I'm limited. You kind of hit rock bottom, but you rebuilt your life through real estate, which I. you know, happen to do. But was there a single moment that when you were out that you decided You know, I'm not going to be defined by the scandal and what happened. And if there was, what was that turning point?
You know, it was tough for me to get past that because it was going to be difficult to get that, you know, off of my back because it was such a big scandal. It was so well known. You know, I went into a supermarket, people recognized who I was. I was on 60 Minutes. The story just wouldn't go away.
You know, and it was difficult. But, you know, I just felt by doing the right thing little by little that eventually. You know, people are gonna forgive and forget. And that's basically what happened because. You know, you just start doing the right thing, and people start to realize that you are a family guy, that everybody makes mistakes.
And mine was just something that was out there for the world to see. You know, I'm just fortunate that we live in a forgiving society and that people actually want to see you pick yourself up and do better. And I just got. Involved with the right guy at the right time. And real estate was in a position where nobody wanted it.
And this guy showed me the business, and I worked extremely hard and was able to rebuild my life. But it's difficult for people coming out of the federal prison system. It's supposed to be, jail is supposed to be for people that are a threat to society. And I think that we, Don't use jail in that manner. We just throw anyone and everybody in jail.
It's almost like, you know, it's such a business. And a lot of people can, you know, maybe do, you know, home confinement or an extra year, a couple of years of probation and pay their debt to society rather than separating them from their wife and kids and breaking families up, which is very, very difficult because I've heard lots of stories of. People, when I was in there and when I've been out, about families being broken up. And that's the most difficult thing about the prison system for me. Yeah, but now that you move forward.
You had this. Stigma put on your back. criminal, whistleblower, scapegoat, whatever it may be. But how Does Tim define himself? You know, I can find myself right now as a guy that takes pride in his kids and the success of his kids and moving forward being the best father that I can possibly be.
So to me, that's, you know, I don't know how many children you have, but that's the most important thing in my life. And I think it's the most important thing in a lot of guys' lives is to make sure that their kids are happy and healthy and you support them and try to guide them to be successful so that they don't make the same mistakes that you made, whether it's in business or choices in life. And we all know how important choices are, right? They affect not only yourselves, but the people that surround you.
So it's always important to try to instill in your kids how important choices are that moving forward, they continue to do the right thing. How old are your daughters? Right now, they're 29, 28, 26, and 23. Man, that's a lot of female hormones going on in the house at once. You ain't kidding.
Man, you ain't kidding.
So. When your daughter describes you, what do you hope they say? You know, I hope they say that, you know, my dad certainly made some mistakes that we know about. And, you know, he's definitely, you know, rebuilt his life and he's successful and he's there for us every step of the way. There's not a time where I don't call my dad where he doesn't pick that phone up on the first ring and he's always going to be there for me.
No, I like that. You know, and Tim, as I look back at my career, 14 years, I played with 12 teams, which means I got a chance to play with some phenomenal players. I mean, and some great organizations, some that were not. you know, that good, but I got a chance to meet A lot of people and be around a lot of people. You know, but from your side of the whistle, what's the biggest misconception that players have about officials?
about referees. You know, I think that they don't think that the officials really work hard and take pride in their job. There's a lot of things that go on behind the scenes of officiating, and they just don't show up with that. Whistle in their mouth. You're studying film on a continuous basis.
You're studying the rules. You're trying to go out there and do what the league wants you to do.
Now, because the league wants you to do certain things, you know, sometimes that's not going to go in your favor if you're a team that for whatever given reason, they want you to crack down on something on any given night.
So it's coming from up top with the referees. You're the most talented 60 individuals in the world at their craft, and they're going out there for the most part to do the best job they can and to do what the league wants. Yeah, I know sometimes players. We forget, too, that officials are human beings who have feelings and have some because we're so competitive. You know, we feel that we can control everything on the court.
Right. Not only that, Jimmy, you guys are the quickest. uh you know greatest athletes when you look at every sport right the the nba game is extremely quick you guys uh are moving up and down the floor at a fast pace so it's very difficult to make a call you know when you're running up and down the floor and you're right there it's almost easier to see if you're 20 rows up in the stands versus being right there on top of it so you know it's tough when you're with the greatest athletes in the world moving at a quick pace to make a judgment call you know split second and that's what i think people really don't understand No, I'm glad you segue that. It allows me to segue to this. I like to do a rapid fire, hot takes, whatever it is for you, because you talked about the officiating, how tough it is, right?
Cause when I do a game at the Clipper game right now at Intuit Dome. I love being on the floor so I can hear their interactions with the players and the coaches and the officials and what's saying. But then you're getting lost. Like sometimes I can't see a play because of my angles. where I can see everything.
You know, a lot of times, especially when calls are being reviewed. Uh Rapid fire, some quick questions real quick. I want you to hit me back, all right? Sure. All right, toughest player you ever had to officiate.
Shaquille O'Neal.
Okay. Big Strong, okay. Most people. Big Strong, you know, you're in there in the post with him. He's Banging all the time.
You know, is he getting the advantage from creating space because he's so big and strong? It's just difficult in the post with him. What his size and strength worked for him and against him, too, in a lot of times.
Okay, so most professional player you dealt with. Besides me. David Robinson. Besides me. Besides me.
Number two. You would want David Robinson, number two. All right, David Right. Best coach who worked the refs the best. Larry Brown.
Oh, man. Oh, that slow talk. Timmy, you know. Oh, the kids, yeah. You're ruining it for the kids.
You're doing it. The kids, okay. What's the one arena, old or new, that was the tough the toughest or hardest to work in? Portland, because they had fans that were just relentless. Really, Sacramento.
Because that was really their only professional sport. They took it so seriously. They were always involved in the game.
So now, hold, wait, wait, wait, wait. To me, Philly fans are even tougher than New York fans or Boston fans, but you're saying Portland. Right, I'm taking the fact out that, you know, they're throwing batteries and snowballs at people. I'm just saying screaming and yelling on top of you right there.
Okay, Michael Jordan, LeBron James. Who got the better whistle? Ah, Michael Jordan by far. I remember Jess Kersey, God rest his soul. I'm a young referee, and he just says, Hey, listen, you know, Michael Jordan goes to the hole and he misses.
I just blow the whistle because he's not going to miss. Oh, speaking of Michael Jordan. And I don't know how much you watch the game right now, but is the NBA more or less entertaining to watch today than it was in the 90s? I think it's less entertaining, to be honest with you. I think that there was a lot of competitive.
Tough games that they allowed defense to be played in the 80s and 90s versus now. They just want an open, free-flowing game where you basically touch somebody, they're calling a foul.
So I think it was better back in the day. And I try not to be the old guy, okay, you know, that played back in the 90s and crossed over to the 2000s. I think each generation is different. They all had their greatness. It's hard to compare errors because the games were different.
The I think the way we played was different. Uh, the onus on how we played was different because back in the day, everything was inside out. It's like Joe Montana can tell you right now: well, hell, if I played now, I I would have much more. I would have more passing yards now because I would throw it 30, 40, 50 times a game compared to 16 or 17. And that's why it's hard to compare GOATs because Tom Brady has it, yes, but he threw the ball a lot more than Joe Montana.
Or Terry Bradshaw or Troy Aikman, whatever it was.
So that's why I kind of try to stay away from that a little bit. I give my opinion, but the 90s were great, bro. I'm going to tell you that because it was a physically tough game, tough. from top to bottom, but I appreciate You know, the young men and women that play the game today, because they're taught to play a different way. And it's exciting to see.
And I know a lot of people like it, a lot of people don't, but I enjoy it. But listen, as we sit here today and we're talking about the new generation of players. and also official that are under the microscope. What's the single biggest vulnerability in the NBA right now? That we get you we're dealing with this scandal, but that could lead to another scandal.
You know, I just think that I know this is the scandal they're talking about, but I think this gambling is something that. You know, they have to somehow. Get out of the game. I think maybe with these prop bets, that instead of it being an over and under, maybe you can only bet on a player to go over just so there's no tagging involved in any way, shape, or form. I just think that the gambling is going to be something that they have to somehow.
Fix or get out of the game or make these fans feel that the integrity is there in every step of the way.
Well, it's interesting because Adam Silver came out and said something about the prop betting. With regards to players who may be down the level on the bench. that they can't be included in the prop bets. you know, to I ain't gonna say, I'm gonna say eliminate, but to lessen. That happening in the game because Jante Porter was a player that wasn't in the starting five, probably wasn't in a rotation much, but at some point he got in the game or he had information or he got in the game, he was able to affect it.
So I know that Adam Silver did. kind of addressed some ways in which the NBA was working. To minimize the effect of prop betting.
Now, once you're in bed with them, kind of like the mob. It's hard to get out of it. I mean, how do they get out of what they're involved in now? The commercials, every time you turn around, I'm sure they had aspirations of having some type of device, courtside seats, so you could interact and gambling on the court right there, live real-time gambling. Yeah, it's something that they got a major problem on their hands, and I'm not too sure I have all the answers on how to fix it.
Yeah, me neither, man. But it's like one of those things that you couldn't run from and avoid it forever because it was too much money.
Now the players the players benefit from it too because that's money through the BRI basketball related income that comes in and now they're able to split.
So as these TV deals continue to rise and all this money comes into these leagues, players are making more money.
Okay, so it's harder to peel that back. and say, well, we're going to take that away.
Now you're peeling back money. Salary cap is going to be decreased. All this stuff, it has more of a residual effect than just, okay, we're going to take the gambling away and that's it. And that's why it's tough once you walk down this path and get into it. is that you you can get into it and have all these Different parameters up on how you're going to deal with it, but until you're in it, Knowing that some things can go wrong, don't get me wrong, I know the NBA.
kind of try to have these stop gaps in there because they know some things are going to happen. but you don't know the extent of it until you're in it. You don't know. It's interesting from that perspective. Before we close out of here, too, man, I just wanted to thank you.
For for being a part of this, but Um If you had to, and I always go through this, we make mistakes in our lives.
Okay. And you don't never want to be defined by it, but you t you try to learn. Man, if I'd have knew this, it wondered. You were 27 when you first put your NBA referee in uniform on in 1994.
So you got into 94. I came in the league in 92. If you could go back to that day. You know, it's like me putting on the jersey and finally being able to get on the court. knowing everything that you know now.
What advice would you give that young 27-year-old man? I would just tell him you are on the top of the world. You have the greatest job in the world, running up and down the floor with the greatest athletes in the world. You know, respect the fact that you've made it this far and don't do anything that would jeopardize your position. You're going to be in a great position for the next 20, 25 years.
And take advantage of it. Enjoy the journey of being on the floor with the greatest athletes in the world. And don't do anything to jeopardize your position. Sam, man, I really appreciate you coming on. I know you've been hitting the circuit, especially when this thing jumped off with the NBA.
You've been kind with your time. I appreciate it. You know, the funny thing is, too, and I was going to tell you this: I think we're going to have it. on the website. When your case went down, it was a picture.
Of me, I was in a Houston uniform and I was arguing with you on the court, and I got that picture. You know, it's funny that you say that because I always remember you as you know, like that smile you have now. You tried to kill the kindness and your personality, which to me, if I ever talked to NBA players, I would tell them, you know, utilize your personality. You know, as my dad always said, you're going to get more with sugar than you would with salt.
So I don't know why more NBA players don't do that. Hey, man, we got egos, bro. We want to, we like to yell a lot. Don't like to smile a lot. But I appreciate you, Tim.
Hey, listen. Best wishes on everything to you and your family. I know things are kind of trending in the right direction for you. Happy for you. It's been tough.
Been through a lot of stuff. Thanks for your insight too. Into what's going on and what may be down the road, not only just for. you know, an NBA and NFL and professional sports, but what may be happening. unfortunately on the colletcine as well.
You know, and these guys are going through this. I told one of the FBI agents: you know, I wouldn't wish this on my biggest enemy. I hope that, you know. There's a way that a lot of this isn't true. And I wish them nothing but the best.
And I know you said you're friends with Chauncey, and I hope that. A lot of this stuff isn't true, and he's able to get through this because, you know, we all have families. Like you said, we all make mistakes. And, you know, I wish nothing but the best for him. Yeah.
Appreciate you, brother. Be safe. All right. Thank you, sir. Incredible interview.
That was Tim Donahey. A huge thanks for him for an incredibly candid conversation. You've been saying for a long time A lot of stuff has been consistent.
So no matter what you think of his story. It is a critical piece of NBA history. And it's never been more relevant than it is right now. Let us know what you think in the comments. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and find us wherever you get your podcasts.
We'll see you next week on the Jim Jackson Show.
