The Jim Jackson Show: Shawn Stockman of Boyz II Men

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Welcome to the show, Jim Jackson Show, of course, and I got a special guest.

Now, it's the offseason a little bit. I don't know if the NBA really has an offseason. you know, with Summer League and free agency and everything like that going on. But Not a lot of news going on, so I like to switch up the podcast a little bit, get different guests in, especially. When it's someone that's close, that's like family, you know?

So I had to be able to get like my brother on. the show this week. Mr. Sean Stockman from Boys to Men. You may have heard of the name and heard of the group, of course.

Grammy Award-winning group. Also, podcaster himself.

Solo artist, businessman, everything else. But I wanted to get them on to talk about not just. The boys to men, but fatherhood about life. Yeah. You know, all the things that entail.

What success is, the challenges within that space.

So I appreciate you joining me this year. Come on, brother. You know, it's all good. You know, and fun fact. This man is also the godfather to my son.

Yeah, how about that?

So, you know, this is real family here. This isn't like just a. A pull-up on some business. Like, we're going to sit and have a conversation. This is not an interview.

No, we're actually sitting and we're talking. This is your interview. And you see what we have here, too.

So, we have a piece, an instrument here that is.

Now, he said to bring it. I have no idea what I'm doing. I have no idea what I'm doing. But I'm going to wing it, I guess. No, there's never a wing with that.

We'll improv.

So, how you been, man? What's going on? Been great. It's been beautiful, man. Just me and the guys are out still on the road.

Here's the misconception about the music industry. A lot of people tend to think that If you're not in the mainstream Uh Media cycle that, oh, you're not doing anything, which is furthest from the case. Like, you know, me and the guys have been working. Since we've been out, you know, we've been in the business for thirty three years and and God will blessed us with the ability to still tour the planet and still. Uh manage to Do music that seems like people still enjoy, which we're appreciative.

And, and, uh, I just got back actually. We just... Got back this morning well, late last night from Curacao. Really? Yeah, we were in Curacao for a few days and did a show out there.

We got a couple, we got an orchestra show in Boston because we do that too. Like we do orchestral. arrangements of our our boys to men songs. Uh with like a 60 piece orchestra and a nice little, you know, people come out and they wear tuxedos and they dress. Like I see a lot of hip-hop acts doing that.

Yeah, Nas have done it. Jay-Z's done it. But we've been doing it for about 10 years.

So, um, but it makes sense with it makes it makes sense for you from the group perspective that that would be the next transformation or kind of the evolvement with the tuxedos. Rap is kind of a little bit different with that. Yeah, yeah. Uh but you you you tend to discover That even It with with hip hop music, for example. They use a lot of samples.

That once you put it in that format, it sounds just as good, or if not flyer, because it's like an actual live orchestra. I feel like Hip hop, just like RB. it's real music and and you can tell that by If you can put orchestra behind you. This is the difference between, I think, the music now. Not music genre-wise, like just hip-hop RB, yeah, period.

Like, think about the songs that are out now and think about them being in that. No. Exactly. But you put them in that environment. There's some artists, though.

There's some artists, there are some. There are some, but a lot of this music. That honestly is a testament to me. If you can't. I have a philosophy.

You can't play a guitar. or have something like an orchestra behind you. To actually play your music or interpret your music, you might want to question what it is you're doing.

So let me step back.

So 33 years. Last year was the 30th anniversary of two, right? Yes, I believe so, yeah. 30th anniversary.

So if I say these names to you, tell me what first comes to your mind: George Baldy, John Schultz, Marjorie Walker. That's high school, man. Those were actually the original members. of uh Nate's group. Because Nate Mars, our group member, he put Boys to men together.

Right. Um But before we came in You and Juan Ye.

Well, yeah, Wanye, Mike, and Mark Nelson.

Okay. Because we were five at one point.

Okay, that's true. But before us, he had George Baldy, John Schultz, and Marguerite. And they had a whole nother group. Like it was their thing, but they all graduated.

So Nate was kind of like, I ain't got no other group members.

So he recruited Mark. He was the first one. Uh They saw Wanye. See now, mind you. Wanye is a year younger than me, so he came in after me, but They didn't even know that I could sing.

Really? Nah. But you were all at the same high school. You were at the same high school creative and performing arts in South Philly. Right.

And. We He was doing his thing with Marguerite and all those other guys, and they graduated. I was there for a year. And, you know, I was. I was a geek.

I was a nerd. You know what I mean? I wasn't hanging with the cool kids. You know what I'm saying?

So I was kind of in the same classes and the same choirs, but I was in a tuck. Like, you know, I didn't really. You know, make any noise and Which is why Wanye got into the group. first before me. Because it was him and Mark And then the other guys graduated and then I was there for that year and Wanye came in in 80.

Seven. And I was already there in 86. Wanye, they heard Wanye's audition, they was like, oh no, he coming in. Right. And how I got in was uh There was an uh a a a solo part that My teacher, Mr.

Donald Dumpson. Gave me yeah, right, right, double D. Double D. Double D. That um.

That he he just gave me. He saw the potential in me that I didn't see. And he was like. You're singing this. I said fuck.

I wanna sing this. Excuse me, Lane. Do I say I don't wanna cuss? But I was like, yo, I wanna sing this. I was an introvert.

So I'm practicing or whatever. All right, fine. I did it. All right. I sang your solo.

You happy? You know, that type of attitude.

So we all in the choir. I said, Sean. On stage. I was like Mm-hmm.

So it was a A gospel song, BBNCC Wining's Love Said Not So. Life was bitter to the core. There was nothing to live for until love came. Even second times around, happiness cannot be found until love came. Right, so I did all of that.

So again, nobody knew in the choir that I existed.

So when I got on stage and sang, everybody was like this. Hold, but you were in the choir, so how did the choir? But how did they not know? If you were in the choir, I don't understand that. It's 75 of us, okay?

Right?

So your voice just blended in with everybody else. And then you had again the cool kids and the gospel singers as loud and hitting riffs and all that other stuff. I wasn't that dude.

So I just kind of like satin. Oh, that's dope. You know what I'm saying?

And then when I did the solo, right after that, Nate walks up to me. Yo, man. Won't be in my grues. And I said, all right. You know what I'm saying?

Like, you know, and that was it. Wow.

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eBay is the place for pre-loved and vintage fashion. eBay, things people love. And so That formation, how does that, and walk me through this a little bit, the process of kind of getting to 1991? When the first release to the album came out, kind of hot that process. I mean, How does that work?

Because I know how it works from the basketball person. You get recruited, you know, you go play, find an agent, you know, you get that. With that part of it, how does that and I know the story about, you know, With Michael Bivens and everything like that.

So, is that really how it went down?

Some of it is true, some of it isn't.

Some of it was made for TV. Just to give you a brief, because it's a long process, but We Uh sang for Mike Bivens backstage of it. radio station event. This is when they were announcing Um The group Belle Bive DeVaux. Like they were those three were going to do something together.

And we happened to catch them right before they were about to leave. And first we asked Ricky Co We sing for him. And he said, Oh, y'all gotta get a demo tape. And we're Man, bump that.

So we walked up to the mic, and coincidentally, we didn't know that six months prior. He was given a production deal with Motown.

So he was already looking for Axe, he was on the hunt.

So We was like, yo, can we sing for you? He was like, can you sing now? I said, yeah.

So we sang for him. He loved it. We sang Cane Stander Rain. He loved it. We get we exchanged numbers.

And It took a year because that was in 89.

So it took a year. Practically for us. To uh Get the deal signed. uh get records made And in the midst of that, Trying to figure out our image. We were writing songs for Another Bad Creation.

Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We say, like, if you listen to Aisha and Playground in particular. That's our backgrounds. Really?

That's us.

So, you know, so we move. Yeah, yeah, that's us. That's us singing. You know what I'm saying?

So yeah, yeah, so we did that. And just just kind of staying busy. While the label was trying to figure out what to do with us, because they didn't know what to do. Like just a bunch of four dudes with bow ties on and whatnot, they were like, We don't know what to do with you. And we sang a cappella.

So it was kind of a new. Exactly. So it took a year. for them to get repertoire Find a producer which at... became Dallas Austin.

Mm-hmm. Uh he recorded most of the record. um and co-wrote some of the stuff with us. 'Cause a lot of the songs we already had prepared, he just produced them. And uh 91 in May is when we drop uh Motown Philly.

Motown Philly. Yep. And the rest is history. Time has passed, how much you've accomplished over that. Is there something you take out of?

That time period of the first when it happened, like the first time. I remember when I got drafted and I played my first game after my holdout. It's like surreal. It's a lot of moments I remember, it's a lot of moments I forget. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%.

But is there anything that kind of stands out to you? in that first period of time after Motown Phillip. Um I think The thing that that stood out the most was how quickly we became successful. Like It kind of It it it uh it distorts your reality to some degree. Meaning You think that that's how it always supposed to be.

Like there was no, we don't have one of those.

Sob stories where you hear about bands or groups, yeah, we were together 20 years before we got a deal. We form the group as the world knows it. Six months. before we met Biv. and sang for him Got signed.

Dropped the record and blew up. It was almost like kismet. You know, it was. one of those things where Everything just happened. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

So We kind of just got used to the to the energy of Having a single out. and being successful. Because first out Boom. It was an explosion. We were on MTV, we were on BET, we went on a tour with Hammer in 92, right after that.

Wow.

You know, and Jodisie and TLC.

So it was. It was a crazy. Whirlwind because everything was just Once it started, It didn't start. And Even back then, like, we went on this like this. This thing called a promotional tour.

For those kids that don't know what a promotional tour is, is when you actually go out. from state to state. And you visit radio stations and you do little gigs and small rinky-dink whack clubs with. It's four of us, and only two microphones work. You got one mic stand that's flimsy.

The stage is about this big, and we're doing like. High energy level dance steps because that's what we taught. We got to always go hard 100%. And what's funny is, is that's where a lot of I guess the discipline comes that correlates with with being an athlete. It's it's It's a discipline.

that that we were taught within that Period of us coming out. We were rehearsing, we were practicing, we were conditioning vocally, physically the whole nine yards for us to eventually perform. And It's very similar to what you had to do. When when you got dra drafted. The training then started.

And all the conditions and physically. You had to get yourself geared up. to perform on the big stage 'cause the NBA is the big stage.

So you know the big difference though. My money's guaranteed. That is true. And that's what. From the musician's perspective, I respect because not only in 1991 did you do Rabbit Drop Motom Philly and Cooley High Harmony, but then you came back in 94 with two.

Yeah. That three-year period you grew, you learned, and And you can tell the difference, the growth between the first album. And two, like really, boys and men grew up those three years.

So that transition of, okay. You can either get caught up. Yeah. And Not be able to make that second, because that second one is a lot. Was it more pressure?

How much more pressure was on that second album? It's called The Sophomore Slump. Exactly. Anybody can catch a wave with their first album when People are excited to see you, but it's harder to come back with something else that people are interested in.

So it it's again, it's the same thing with Again, athletes, basketball players, you know, who catch a wave and. You know, you know capture the the the public's Curiosity and all of that. You got to be able to be consistent. Within your whole career, in order for you to not only just put the numbers up. but to gain that Hall of Famer.

You know, type of respect where people see you and have conversations about you, you got to put the work in.

So yeah, it was it was tough, but again. We were on such a. We were focused. And and shout out to Mike Bivens for And still in that. that animal in us.

To not stop working. I I think it benefited us that We went straight from one album to the next, from touring to the next record. We didn't stop. And it's just like anything else, it's muscle memory. You're just going in the studio and doing what you've always done.

And You know, with the two album, we knew what we wanted to do. We knew how we wanted to do it. And we just executed what we thought of. And we were constantly in the studio writing records and rehearsing and coming up with ideas and concepts and the whole nine yards.

Well but it's interesting because you I I just love music. You know that from our interactions. And. Listening to Coolee High Harmony, and I love Uah. I love the remix of that.

The remix is dope. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the but the tenor of the of the songs on two was just different.

Now, was that a collective Thought process with the group and Mike? Or did Mike and management come to you and say, you know what, in order for two to kind of be this, we need more mature music?

Well, you know. The interesting part about Uh Mike's involvement is that Mm-hmm. He was only involved in Cooley At Harmony. That was it. That was it.

He he put that together. He put together the concept. He put together our image. And We ran with that. And after that, the two album was on us.

It was on us. Yeah, it was on us. And Uh the label. It was a collaboration, literally, between us and the label and us putting the music together. And Knowing exactly how we wanted to put it together, learning the business and understanding how to move in those offices to get what we need to get done, and all of those things.

Like, we were sponges. Like, we took everything that we learned from that first project. and just applied it through the second project. And All of that was us. It was us, our management, and the record label.

And that was it. And we just got it in. It was Wynne's idea. To get with Tim Kelly and Bob Robinson, Tim and Bob, two great producers who produced for Case and Cisco. They did the Thong Song and all that other stuff.

They were just new and up and comers at the time, and we just loved their sound.

So they did the majority of that record. Troy Taylor. And Charles Farrar, L.A. Reed, obviously, Babyface, Jammin' Lewis, those guys. And we just got in and created what we did.

And that was it. But that was mostly us and the label. Biv had nothing to do with it, just the first record.

So, I mean. With with that perspective too, how challenging is it? I don't know. It's it's like one of those things too where All of this success comes quickly. Again, now the second album is just like, boom, you get.

Was the end of the road for me? Yeah, yeah. End of the road was in 93.

So that was.

Well, the win was in 93. End of the Row came out in 92. For there was a song on a soundtrack called Boomerang with Eddie Murphy.

So. Uh Face presented that record to us. And the funny story about that is The label didn't want us to do it. Why? Because it was just a we don't know.

Really? We don't know why they kind of was opting out. No, no, the boys shouldn't do that. And Biv. Kind of, and he could tell you the story better, but he practically tricked.

The label to get us to do it. Because he felt the song was great, and we did too. And it was our first time. working with Babyface and LA and Daryl Simmons.

So Uh He got us in there, got us in the studio. We were on tour with Hammer at the time. We took a day off. Went to Philadelphia. recorded the record, took about three hours to do, and left.

And then while we were on tour, That thing just went, it went crazy. to the point where we had to implement it in the show.

So what do you think it was about that song? I mean, you know what I mean? Especially at that time. Slow song. And again, again, slow songs back then were Yeah, that was it.

People were part of it. Yeah, that was it. But that particular song, why do you think that song resonated so much? And not just with us, with just. music and people Cross generations, costs, color lines, whatever it was.

Why do you think that song in particular? With With music It's all about timing. Like it it's really about The stars are lining. You know, I'm trying to be weird with it, but it's like we were At our height, Even before End of the Road, we were I think we were at seven million records.

So we already captured the the attention of the public. Babyface at the same time was doing his thing.

So with his solo records and him writing songs for other people, So he was doing his thing.

So now it was that collaboration. that I think people first off got excited about. Then It was a classic babyface record. Like, you know We were already. Just high off of the stuff that he recorded for himself and other people.

So his sound and his algorithm was already out there.

So Put that together. with a group that people are loving right now. And Not downplaying the performance because we sang our hearts out. in it you felt the soul into it because one in the process of us recording it. We wanted to impress these guys.

It was our first time. meeting these dudes that we loved and and listened to on our personal time.

So it wasn't about it being nervous or anything like that. We were performers. Like, again, so we were like going in, like, yo, we're going to kill this.

So we went in and we sang our asses off. And It resonated. And it connected. And and that that's really all it is, is it's it's it's the connection that It was easy to understand. And again, those guys wrote the hell out of that record.

And we tried to be the greatest vehicles for it possible. And we sang our hearts out on that joint. And we went home and Or rather, went back on the road and just kind of left it there. But somehow it just captured It connected with people. And it connects with people to this day.

And and that's that's the the true I guess, marking of a great record. I When it when it la when it's gonna last longer than you. That's when you know you got something. Yeah, no, and that's the longevity part of it, too. And as you continue to grow, and you'll see it resonate too with athletes, too.

It's a performance. Yeah. Like the Michael Jordan shot. Over Craig Hilo. Yeah.

Would never get old. He'll never get old. You know, and it's whether it's. I'm a big Pittsburgh Stiller fan, so Lynn Swan makes this acrobatic catch. Yeah.

Love Lynn Swan. I mean, we're from Philly, so you're from Philly. Yeah, you know, but you know, it's and it's funny how the the two kind of crossover with a lot of the same ingredients or how it resonates with The fan, the consumer, or whatever it may be, to a moment when you can go back and say, I remember this. And when I hear the song or I see the play, it's nostalgic. It's nostalgic, yeah.

That you got it. Yeah. And you know, and I look at the growth too.

So from there, you're talking about opening up and starting to do collaborations, whether that's with LL, with Mariah. I I I know you got a this was very interesting to me when you did A cover for yesterday. You got a letter from Paul McCartney. That's right, that's right. Who originally wrote in the song it?

Yeah. And what did he say?

Well, He uh He wrote he wrote McCartney from the Beatles. Yeah, from the Beatles. Yeah, yeah. This is when. Telegrams was a thing.

Mm. And he sent us a telegram. And I don't know where that is. I'm sure Nate has it somewhere in his archives. We call him the Oracle.

Nate keeps all of the boys to men. archival you know stuff so he might have it but um He said he was coming from dinner. and I'm paraphrasing, but he said he was coming from dinner And him and his wife Linda at the time, who was alive. Um and They got into the car and they turned on the radio. And they heard our rendition of his song.

And he said, I had to send you guys a letter. He said, That was one of the best renditions I've ever heard of our record in our lives. And they said, He wanted to thank you. He thanked us. He wanted to say thank you.

It's beautiful and and We met him in in Linda, like not too far. After that. Yeah, it was an MTV in London. And uh They were doing like some cooking stuff or whatever, but but they were there. And we introduced ourselves and he was like, you know, really love your work, you know.

It's very good. And for those that don't understand the Beatles, the impact they had in the 60s by London, right? Band that came over. Liverpool. Liverpool, that came over from the UK and kind of changed.

Was it the rock and roll part of bands in the U.S.? Yes, 100%. They call it the British Invasion. Yes. And what's crazy is that.

When you If you know the story of the Beatles, All the Beatles listened to was black music. That's all they listen to because at that time Uh Black music was really being frowned upon here in the United States. It was the devil's music.

So they shipped a lot of that music over to the UK.

So Those white boys in the UK don't wanna be a band. Like them, the Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, all those guys, Eric Clapton, they'll all tell you that their heroes were black RB and blues musicians.

So this is They were connected. which is why it sounded so amazing in America. When all they were doing was black music. And that's, it makes, you know, what Sean, and it makes sense of why the music scene in London today. Yeah.

is so From a I think variety perspective, and I use a better word for it. But if you go to London now, you can get any and everything from a music perspective. 100%. They're more eclectic and more open-minded than us. Yes.

Because they don't give a crap. They don't care about. Color and all that other stuff, if the music is dope. They mess with it. They mess with it.

You know what I'm saying?

So, but yeah, that's.

So when you get. Those types of compliments are when you hear Elton John tell you that they're huge fans of yours and They listen. They listen. They listen and they appreciate it for the musicality of it. And that's all that matters.

And that's all we wanted to do, right? black dudes growing up in in the ghettos of Philly Like we understood the The segregated part. Of what music tends to represent. Oh, if you do this, then. Black people can only do this.

You know, you can only be categorized as this. As a kid, like I said, I was a geek. I grew up listening to the carpenters and and And Christopher Cross and Alan Parsons Project and all the others. You know what I mean? Outside of run DMC, LL, KRS-1, Juice Crew, and all those other.

Like, I had. I was across the board. I was across the board as a child.

So. meeting three other guys that felt the same way I did. I was like, yo. We don't want to be just an RB band. We want to be a group that everybody loved and appreciated, which is why I think.

It resonated with black, white, or other because art. Our sensibilities expanded further than just RB music. Did that help? Because we all have challenges, okay, within a group dynamic. I don't care if it's at work, if it's sports, whatever it is.

You see it all the time with. Bands that are together that break up. I don't care if it's hip-hop. Shout out to. The locks for staying together as long as they have without having any kind of riffs or problems.

And that's difficult to do, right? They're still doing solo projects. They're still doing solo projects, but yet. I mean, that's a testament to How difficult Was that one? From a group perspective, you know, the dynamics of a group when you have individual goals you want to set for yourselves and get.

Okay, one. And that goes into what are the biggest challenges. being in that group dynamic when you have performers. Is there a competition too within the group? Oh no you know That that that I hate to sound boring.

But We never had those problems. Really? No. Because everybody had their own superpower. Wanye did Wanye.

And everybody knows what Wanye is known for doing. I'm not doing that. Like I do what I do. And everybody knows me for doing what I do. Mike at the time with his voice.

Wasn't nobody doing that. With nobody doing that. You know what I'm saying?

Was nobody. And Nate was basically the utility dude outside of him also being The guy that wanted to make sure that we were straight, so he took on the business part of it more so than everybody else.

So he made sure.

So everybody had their roles. It's like the Avengers. Hawkeye ain't trying to fly like Thor. Like, he can't do that. You know what I'm saying?

Like, he did what he did.

So We never really really had that that problem. If anything, we were more supportive of what it is that we did. Like you should do that more or you should kind of Just giving each other advice from a fan's perspective. Because being in that group, you're a fan of the people that you're in the group with.

So you're like, yo, that's dope. You should do X, Y, and Z. We honestly, we never had those issues, man. I know that. That doesn't sound provocative enough for most people, but We If anything, we have more issues with people from the outside.

Meaning Meaning As I mentioned, We gained a lot of success. We sold over sixty million records. And you can't sell that many records. to just black people. Right.

You can't go plotting them with just black people. Yeah. You can't do it. You can't do it. You can't do it.

Like, you know, there's a certain level that. You can do like platinum, double platinum, maybe even triple. But after you get out of that, You're appealing to other people. Mm. And because of that, Uh Our own people.

Would Yeah, man, these sell outs, man. They said, I'm telling you, like, like what? Like, why, what was the, what was the premise behind being the seller? You gotta ask them. Because, but what did you hear?

I mean, what was the type of music y'all doing? Like, you know. Like just honestly, I hate to say it. But like hater shit. Like the shows that we were in, the shows that we were on, you see, you know, four, four black folk, four black people smiling.

They instantly think, ah, look at that. Yeah. They sold out. They're doing this. They're rubbing elbows with this, that person the whole nine yards.

when it's not Selling out is really people hating and really not understanding. And these are industry people. And industry people not understanding. What Okay. They what we're doing is really helping them out.

Because once we're in those doors, it allows everybody else to walk in behind us. And this is what our whole objective was. Like, we wanted to take things to another stage. And to show that Black music isn't monolithic. Like we we can do any and everything.

And still maintain our blackness. Jimmy, you know me.

So, it ain't nothing for me to prove as far as the type of person I am. You understand what I'm saying? Ain't got nothing to do with that, but. Again, we had more resistance from people in the industry that had their opinions about us because we weren't hood enough. Because we didn't wear our pants down off our ass and get in trouble or getting to like it's it's it's some weird Uh you know, some weird camaraderie with our folks.

That If you ain't thugging, or if you ain't doing something crazy, you ain't repping the culture. You know what I'm saying?

How much is that you think? The success of new edition, okay, because Yeah. You know, of course, they were earlier, you know, late 70s, early 80s, stuff like that. You know, they still resonate to this day. I mean, but they have a different, their demographic.

is different in what they reach. How much of that do you think, and is there competition between different groups? Because New Edition kind of set the standard on boy groups, but they kind of had their own lane. Yeah, and I don't know if it's spread out as much as yours. Yeah, you may have resonated boys to men more with the general population where theirs is more segmented.

Yeah, yeah. Is that true? Yeah, you know, I mean, and and A lot of it has to do with the music, and then a lot of it has to do with the dynamic of the group within itself. Prime example. Yeah, I mean, prime example of that, though, is Bob, right?

Mm-hmm. Bob left the group and sold more records than his group. He was still Bobby Ground. Right. But Somehow He managed to understand.

Something that his group as a collective didn't. Which is why when they were on tour and by the way Bobby Brown will be on my podcast. Way to plug it. What's the name of the podcast? Tell me about the podcast.

It's called On That Note On That Note with Sean Stockman. And Bobby Brown actually talks about this. We talk about. How His His mentality changed once he went solo. because he understood the mistakes the group made as a collective.

went on went on you know his own and did the exact opposite, which is why Bobby Brown sold 50 million records. Wow.

Say that again. 50 million records. And new edition sold maybe. A tiff. Wow.

And a lot of times, that's what that is. And shout out to New Edition. They're one of the greatest groups on the entire planet Earth. But I think. that a lot of What happens in a group's dynamic?

is lack of vision. They don't really understand. Is that part of management too, though? Because the group can have one thing, but if management. doesn't have the vision to where to steer this group.

A manager can only be as good as the artist he has. Period. Like, it's, it's just like an agent. For an athlete. That's true.

You understand what I'm saying? Agent only do so much. They only do so much. They're not in the limelight. They're not.

putting up the points they're not on the on the hardwood You have to do what you have to do in order for your agent to go do what he needs to do to go to do what he has to do.

So it's one of those things where it's like, yeah, agents and managers. If you have a one that obviously is something that are reputable, you know, it allows you to go through certain doors. That's. Same thing with agents. They have better relationships with GMs and companies.

Rich Paul got he got the hammer when the brahm was leveraged. He can leverage a lot. He can walk in any door. You know what I'm saying?

But it's because of the work that his boy put in. And that's really, it goes hand in hand.

So, going back to your question. Competition, that competition thing is. is fodder for the fans. Like the fans love to compete and say who's better and who's this and who's that. And to be honest, None of us feed into that.

Because One is I know As far as my group's perspective, We don't compare ourselves to anybody. Like did And this is not a flex, there is no comparison. Currently. Currently... You know, we had the old school group back in the 50s and 60s that were just.

Yeah. Whether that's Temptations, Temptations and Four Tops, for example. You know what I mean? Yes, they had a friendly competition because one, they were on the same label and they had the same producers, they had the same songwriters.

So, yes, honestly, they were probably more in competition. With each other. like in real life Because they had to make sure that they one-upped the other. being in the same uh system.

So, but it was friendly still. It was still, and they marketed that that way.

So, it was kind of like, and even with us and Jodici, right? Like A lot of people like to compare who's better and things of that nature, and it's really all a matter of taste. Music is subjective, like you know, what one person may like, another person may not, and that's your opinion, that's your prerogative. That's your choice. But.

As far as the both groups is concerned, We were just kind of, we were all boys. Like it was there was no like animosity or any bitter hatred or anything like that. But You had Team Boys to men, and you had Team Joe to see, and everybody would ride for their group. That whole thing. And if anything, it benefited both groups.

But the truth is, we both respected each other. I respect New Edition. I respect Jodic. I respect these guys for doing what they do. But the truth of the matter is, we're all different.

And we all represent different parts of the same body. And that's the way I look at it. You know, it's the growth part of it, too. And I look at it because the longevity, it's all about. And it's this is what I always say about musicians and about music.

As an athlete, I have an expiration date. As far as what I can do. Right. Right. Now, you can go play in the big three right now.

Don't get me wrong. You can still play. Right. But on that top-tier level, once I'm done playing, I'm done playing. Once I get 50, I'm out.

The beauty about musicians to me, especially when you have timeless music. Mm-hmm. When you have something iconic, or even if maybe you're not the Boyster Men or the Maya Carey's or whoever it may be, you still can go out and perform and still command an audience. Yeah. That's the beautiful thing about I see with musicians is that.

You don't have to come out with new music. No, when you have that fan base built in. That's true. That's true. That that's where the work ethic on both entities, the artist and the management comes in.

Cause there was a time where People aren't checking for us. Like after I think it was around 97, 98. I think people were just tired. They wanted to go somewhere else. They wanted to shift.

And, and, Again Music is subjective.

So, how did it make you feel at the time? Oh, useless. Because We were on top of the world. not too long ago and then people are telling you Literally telling you. 'Cause we had a songwriter At the time, a famous songwriter who we know he is.

I'm not gonna like mention his name, but he was like, you know what, y'all should do. Y'all should just gracefully bow out. Really? Yeah. So this this is three years removed from 94 From Two Grammys, all of that, three years removed.

You're telling me that I should just go somewhere and die. And like when you hear that. You're like, damn, that's kind of... That's kind of jacked up. I mean, my voice still works.

Like, I'm trying to figure out, like, why, why do I got to go somewhere and just disappear? And, and, and, but that's. That's the emotional connection that people have with music. And you got to understand that. You don't understand it when you're going through it at the time.

But music is is is personal.

So a lot of people take things personal when it comes to certain things. That's why. It's such a big backlash, for example, with this whole Kendrick and Drake thing or whatever. Like, it's emotion. It really is emotion that drives people to say, I don't like this guy or I don't like that guy.

But the truth is they're both great musicians. They're both talented artists. They both have different lanes. And they can both co-exist. That's my point.

They can coexist together. If One, they stay out of each other's way. and do what they're known for doing. They can both exist. They could both work.

So, again, Yeah. You you you you have to understand that though. But It's rough at first. feeling is confident as you used to because people are tired of listening to you. This episode is brought to you by State Farm.

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McDonald's breakfast. Does that put more pressure? Say you want to get in the studio, you want to start writing. Yeah. Yeah.

How much more pressure before you can write freely. mind and say, you know, really with the so now you feel the pressure of the pin. To be able to say, okay, now we need a hit. Right. Whereas before you were writing to make great music.

And that's the worst. place to be in. When it comes to writing. Like When you have subconsciously Everybody else's opinions. That's when you mess up.

And that's when you do things that you shouldn't be doing. You trying to catch. What kids now go viral and try to catch a wave and all this other stuff, where instead of just being yourself, You're trying to be everybody else. And we went through that period. We went through that period of trying to find our own identity.

And Music industry. Till we got to a point where we were like, man, fuck it. Like, let's just be ourselves. And we didn't record for a while. I mean, if we did, we recorded music that we liked.

We released it, didn't do well. It's all good. We have fun. And It takes a while though. To get there from people liking you.

To them, people not saying, I don't like them no more. I'm tired of hearing them. I'm tired of hearing that damn end of the road. Like, I heard it a million times. Like, we heard all of that.

But you came in between there though, because Hay Lover was after that. Yeah, yeah. So you dropped, I mean, it's still to this day, it's still. Yeah. Thank you.

So even though you were out of the light. Every now and then it pops up with something here just to kind of keep And we did that. Like, and we've we've been doing it. Like. Just last year, we won a...

We won uh the the the competition for the mad singer. Like we did that last year. Like we were like three buffaloes and whatnot and and And sang and won that. And that's a big show.

So it's like Juan was on Dance with the Stars, and we would do like little things, like we did, like. stuff for how I met your mother and You know, and blackish. And, you know, we've just kept ourselves busy at the same time, still performing and still. keeping ourselves sharp. performance wise, where We can still perform anywhere.

We just did the Essence Festival, you know what I'm saying?

So But it takes time. If you can ride out. The transition And especially if you made a big impact. The music industry works in cycles. And this is what people don't understand.

People love what they love, they don't love it anymore, then they love it again. It's weird. But it's just the way it is. It it it's so funny how Kids, my my daughter, Brooklyn. who 15 years old is into Wu-Tang.

Praise it. Like she loves whoever. She loves Wu-Tay. She loves MF Doom. Like she's listening to old school hip-hop.

And I'm like, this isn't my influence. She's discovering it on her own.

So she's like, Daddy, can I play my playlist while we drive? Yeah, yeah. And she'll pump some some old boom bap. And I'm sitting there like Where'd you learn that? And and these kids are discovering this on their own again.

Is coming back around because it always comes back around. If it's good music, It might lay dormant for a second because people are transitioning to something new, and that's human. That happens. We all change. But One thing that remains constant.

is good music just like Again, I I you You one of the greatest basketball players ever lived, Jimmy.

So you've seen. a lot of that transition too. In sports, especially in the NBA. I'm a fan. a basketball right i've never played any professional ball in my life But I'm emotionally connected with it 'cause I love I grew I played street ball and you know I I love the sport.

And I think what's coming back around, you can correct me. is I think people are Tired. of the current status of the of the p specifically the NBA. Like it's become Less about The The players per se and more about The image of it. Like, for example, The three ball of A.

Mm. Like it's literally changed the algorithm of the game. Like back in the 90s it was about That blue collar work. Oh, yeah. Pulse work.

Yeah. Inside out. Inside out. You know, mid-range game. Mid-range, slam dunks, aggression.

Physical defense. Physical defense to hold nine yards, and the NBA got away from that. And It's my opinion. I think it hurt him.

Well, well, well, I'm gonna stop you there. It Helped because it grew the game internationally and for a whole new crop of people that came in to see the game. Because David Stern understood that in order to grow this game, to get TV rights in Africa and China and India, the game had to change. It couldn't be this physical, needed to score more. You see it in baseball, need more home runs.

In football, you need more touchdowns and more passes.

So the running back became irrelevant.

So I think it had its place in time. To change, but I think this year with OKC and with Indiana, deep teens, not relying on the three-ball, defensive-minded. Still want to get out and run, but can operate in half court. Yeah. Like you talked about, kind of coming back, using bigs inside.

It's coming back around. It comes back. You know, it's interesting. I saw Sean that they did this thing. I don't know where the statistic was.

These older these groups that were back in the day are now coming together and choring and are selling out more. Then Whether that's hip-hop or RB. are selling out more than the current music environment. And I was just like. And I'm watching that.

And I'm just like, you know. Because at the end of the day, Jimmy. When it comes to a show, we want to see a show. You want to see a show, bro. You don't want to see a fool just standing on stage or walking back and forth, singing over a vocal track.

That's not a performance. Just like And again, going back to bat, if I saw another three-pointer. I was gonna throw the remote at the television set. I'm so tired. I was so tired.

You could ask Sharon. We would watch the game, like, yo, I'm out, man. I'm not watching this no more. Like, it's, it's, it's. No one's physical anymore, even down to the actual physiques of the players.

Like, you know. You know what I mean? You a big dude. You had muscles. You know what I'm saying?

And because you being a game then. But that was the game. But my point is, I think it's the reason why. It's not as As a lawyer, and again, it's my opinion. I'm a fan of the game.

You're right, but you're old. I'm old. You're old. And so I've seen. The the the the the the Chris Webbers and and the Jordans and and and and the the bad boys and and all that other stuff.

So I'm used to seeing that type of physicality. In in the NBA. You know, I remember Shaq, we used to tell me, like stories about how the stuff we don't see like when he's under the the the rim Dude's just tugging at his balls and elbowing him and the whole night, like, really getting at him. He's like, dude, it's physical. Out there.

I'm used to big ticket, you know, and then, you know, his whole mentality and the whole nine yards. Like, I, I, I, I grew up on that because, but that's the essence of basketball. I think so. And I think that's why it's coming back because everybody's not meant to be Steph. Steph does that.

He's the greatest shooter the NBA has ever seen. And that's his wheelhouse. And you got a other couple others that's good at it too. But the point is that, and and There's always one guy that changes the game. There's always one character that changes the game, you know, whether culturally or literally.

Literally. And Steph was one of those guys, but he just. It just ruined it. For a fan, as a fan of the animal. Let me bring it back to music, and I'm going to tell you why it's a correlation here.

Okay. Because growing up in the 80s and 90s, you were at that formative age where watching sports. Whether in watching music, whether that's watching television with the Jeffersons, whether it was what's happening, those moments stick with you because you were growing through the formative time in your years.

So you always go back to that. Even when you get older, the game changes. You're like, man, back. Same thing with music. Music, to me, you can go back and play certain songs and it takes you back to a certain time in your life, a period of time, good or bad, and it's nostalgic.

Now, as the game itself and like music. I can't be mad at some of these young guys, the way they play, because that's all they know. I get it. And The beauty of it is, is when they learn to appreciate. What's come before them?

And you can do both. You can love it. And that's it. You can love what's going on now, but don't disrespect. That's it.

That's it. And that's the thing that correlates with the music. Just like you said, like. I encourage innovation. Keep changing it, keep switching it up, do all that other stuff, but you got to understand that.

The things that were done for you before is how you play it. You have to go back in history. You have to understand what made the game what it is in order for you to innovate and go back and rather and do something different. It's the same reason why. For example, Beyonce is successful not just because of what she does now.

But the legacy she created, legacy means something that has longevity. And Beyonce has not been shy. with telling I pull I reach back. She's Tina Turner, she's Etta James, she's Aretha Franklin, she's artists that you've heard before. That's why she's successful because it's something that you've seen before.

Her energy is like Janet. It's yeah, it's already connected with it.

So it's the same thing. With with basketball, same thing with music. You cannot go forward if you d you know, is that what's that uh That phrase forward, one step back, yeah, yeah, or you can't. You can't move forward without understanding the past. You know what I'm saying?

Like, or something like that. You know what I mean? So you have to connect with the past. Like, it's no way. that you can make the game greater.

without understanding what made the game great. Like, it's one of those things where, with music, like, again, I encourage artists to keep pushing the envelope and doing different things. What? Don't take the council From the OGs who's trying to teach you, okay, cool, you got this hot record. Don't you want to last longer than three summers?

Somebody's got to teach you that.

So you talked about the longevity and coming back. Do you see music coming back to where you saw groups and bands really coming back and being at the forefront again? Is it still going to be fragmented? I hope so, but it has to start. It has to change infrastructurally first.

From up top. Yeah. The way we as people consume music now has changed so much. The experience. Of buying music.

It's changed. It's changed. Going to the record store, bro. Going to a record store. Going to a record store.

Going in line and buying the CD and ripping out the cards. No, no, going back to the album. Going back to the album when they had the, when they had the, going back to the album. When they had the actual lyrics on inside the light, the liner notes, the line cues, and all the, you know, taking 20 minutes for you to drip off the plastic. Because they wrapped that shit like that.

It was like, you sitting there, you trying to burn off the flash stick to hold it. And then once you got it open, you put the CD in the CD play. What? You put up the CD player, you hit play, you open up the line of notes, you saw what your favorite artist was wearing, the whole notion. It was an experience to buy music.

Nowadays, it's just book club. Click it. And and that's it. Infrastructurally, the The experience. has to change because again Yes, things do change.

But There are certain things in order to acquire a certain level of success, it has to stay the same. There is a basis. There is a foundation to everything. Music, the NBA. MLB, the whole nine yards.

It is. And that's all I'm saying. Like, I'm not saying don't shoot the three ball. Just don't shoot the three ball all damn game. Jesus.

So you if a dude shoots 18 times, you know, dudes shoot 18 times, and 11 of those 18 shots, 12 of those 18 shots would be three. Jimmy, you're an announcer. You've seen it. You've literally seen a team on the break transition. Spread out to three.

Spread out the three. And got the clear lane. But that's how they're being taught. But that's how they're being taught, though. No.

I know, but that's what I'm saying. Go to the bucket. Two points is better than zero.

Well, we saw that in the championship. Those twos add up, right? And speaking of twos, adding up. With you and the group and all the success. That's allowed you to also pursue your own individual stuff, whether that's You know, on TV.

And now, you know, this is the second time from a solo perspective. You talked about it earlier, about that within the group, you still can have the opportunity. To do your solo projects. And I know that's something near and dear with you. That's why I wanted you to bring the guitar.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And kind of, you can pick that thing up if you want to. Oh, Lord. Go and pick that thing. I really don't know what Neat.

No, no, no.

So I don't know if you remember when you and Sharonda were getting married, and we had the, we're back in Toledo. They got married in Toledo because Sharonda, I grew up with his wife. That's right. And we had the party at the house. Mm-hmm.

And I said, man, you gotta come to the piano and play this song.

So it was doing just fine. and you got on the piano and played the piano. I said, bro, if I was a chick, the drawers would have been yours right now. When you started playing on the piano. But the solo part, and you really got into the guitar, I know that's one of the things that you love to do instrumental-wise.

What makes this guitar so special to you? Oh, that right there, huh? But um so piano piano piano was my first instrument that I I learned. because it was One of those things that when you When you, uh yeah, sorry. When you um when you're in like school You know, there's always a piano around.

Yeah, it's always piano. Yeah, yeah. So as a musician, you always.

So I started playing that first. And then um This I started playing. I've always wanted to play the guitar, but... And I started as a kid. but then just lost interest.

The the teacher wasn't inspiring enough, I guess, but. Goes back to the teacher, the people. Yeah, it really is. But I picked it back up at 42 years old. And I was like, you know what?

I was in my, what they call it, the fuck it 40s. Yeah, exactly. Where, you know, you kind of like just go, you know what? Fuck it. And I literally slept with this thing.

And now we incorporate it in our live shows and stuff.

So, you know, and I've. This is one of those things where I just It's easy to carry. It's especially for a songwriter. Can't carry a piano? It's a little hard.

It's a little hard to carry a piano. You can't put it in the overhead. No, not at all. You know, the player. But yeah, it's easy to carry and it just sounds beautiful.

I've always loved the sound. Uh Under fire, I wish it's like a bit more. See, that's that's the thing. Hoops all you want. When when musicians get to sing it, it's over, brother.

See, because you control the emotions of a crowd so much. Shot ate her last tour. And the way she controlled With a three-piece band. Yeah. The stage production, but she took you from this high where you're up and you're dancing to this.

Whereas quite as a Pin drop. Yeah. And I had goosebumps. No. one of the greatest feelings to be on stage.

And to know That You can Positively. manipulate a person's feelings. Just wait. How you been the air? Because that's all sound is, just bending.

You know what I'm saying?

In in in the room. Oh sorry. And and and uh You know, when You understand that power. You don't You don't take it for granted. Mm-hmm.

Again, that's why I I look at people funny.

Well it's musicians musicians in particular when they're like, Oh man, I'm just a musician out I don't force people to do anything. To some degree you do. You do.

Some degree you do. There's playlists for different occasions, whether it's making love, whether it's your workout playlist, whether it's your celebration playlist, whether it's your funeral playlist, your heartbreak playlist. You You are in You are a a I guess Emotion Monger. You know what I'm saying?

What Is play through the speakers is how people are gonna feel. That's why you can't go to a hip hop concert and and play Metallica. But You know what I'm saying? It's a reason. I enjoy what I do, Jimmy.

I love what I do. me and the guys still love what we do and and We don't again, we don't take it for granted. which is why we're still in it. Like this was never a hustle for us. This was never a thing we were just doing to make money.

or to catch a wave or to go viral. And by the way. You know, viral. One of the the the words in viral is virus. Right?

You don't necessarily want to always be a virus. 'Cause there's two things that happens to viruses. Either the virus spreads and it kills everybody. Mm-hmm. Or you kill the virus.

Or you kill the virus. So It's It's okay to be viral, but guys That's not. what makes a career. You gotta have some substance. You gotta have.

Music that connects with all people. And not just a certain group of people. A lot of people You tend to really misconstrue that in the business. in the in industry people, I hear them talk about it all the time, extrapolate about What black music is and what this music is and things of that nature. And let's make be clear: black music is everything because we invented everything.

So If you got a black person that wants to play punk, play it. If you want to play country, play it. If you want to play hip-hop, play it. RB, play it. Pop music, play it.

It's cool. Don't let anybody tell you. that you can't do something. Because That's the beginning of your demise right there. You stopping it, you blocking your own blessing.

So That's what We as a group is always encouraged. That's what I as an individual will always encourage. And I will always try to make sure that the younger kids that's coming up understands that it's a big world out here. Bigger than your hood. Much bigger.

And and and not to mention yeah There are hoods everywhere. their hoods in Toledo, their hoods in Paris.

So, don't you want to connect with all of them? It It's a nice caveat. No, man. I mean, the wisdom, the knowledge. Has been, I mean, phenomenal.

That's the reason why I wanted to get you on because I know it's so much more, so much more in depth. to who you are, who the group is currently. All the transitions that you guys had to make. If everybody sees the success part, mm-hmm. They don't understand their inner dynamics.

And then the story about 97. about really having to dig deep when somebody told you You need to quit. And how many times people get to that? But To be able to still do what you do individually and as a group. It's been phenomenal for me to be a part of and watch.

Yeah. Continued success with that. Jimmy, I appreciate you. And like I said, it's. At this point in my life and my career, Thank you.

I want to teach. That's all I want to do. I've been blessed. to acquire a lot of understanding of the business. of the game and and how it correlates with life and how you can balance it all.

And And that's a lot of it is. from mistakes I've made. from things that I've done and and and you know, bad decisions and and all of that stuff that You still continue to do, but I do less of now. But you know, you got scars for a reason, bro. Yeah.

You know, you got scars. You know, it's funny because. As I've gotten older, I've understood too the decisions I've made Make me who I am. Yeah. Helped me raise in fatherhood.

That's right. Allows me to be a better father. a better mentor, better friend, but without those scars, without... I can't expect a young person to make all the right decisions as long as it doesn't really hurt you and take you out. And hurt other people, but you you gotta have those scars, man.

Yeah, you do. You gotta have them. Yeah, you do. You do.

It it's just a testament of what you've gone through and what you've survived. What you survived. Because you're still alive. Like you didn't die.

So you know, you you've managed to get out of whatever rut you were in. and still still uh prosper. And that's all I want to do. At this point, I just want to Whether it's by through example, whether it's conversations, whether it's a literal class, I want to be able to. Teach kids.

You should do that. Yeah, I mean, it'd be nice. You should. I mean, because you give so much, not just to music, but the understanding of how to make music, but how the business works, the business of making music, that part of it. Yeah.

Because that's the other side of it. You can hoop all day. Right. But you got to understand the business of playing basketball and what that means, what that interaction means, and how it plays in the longevity of your career. I think that's what makes.

you a a a integral part of the NBA, whether people bel you know, acknowledge that or not, because I I listen to your broadcast or I watch the games that you, you know, you you uh broadcast on and the articulation, the understanding, the intelligence that you bestow on the public. The the viewer. comes from experience. It comes from you're being a student of the game. Understanding what it is.

to it and knowing how to Explain it. To The dumbest. Person that's watching the game and have a better understanding of it. That's why I appreciate what you do. Like, me and me and Ronnie be sitting in the.

I know Ronnie be sitting there, boy, that boy don't know what he's talking about. I know Ronnie said that all the time. Right, right. And she texts you occasionally sometimes while you're broadcasting. Boy, you don't know what you're using them big words.

So, where can we get? What's the next thing before we get out of here? Boyston, man, what's next this summer going into the fall? Yeah, well. We're always on the road, so Check our Instagram.

And our website, uh, when it's to Boston. Boston is in a couple of weeks, actually. Ah Is it? That's right, just get it to me. Yeah, I get it to you.

But yeah, we're doing an orchestra in Boston. Um we're we're touring Europe. in November, uh Paris, UK, Germany. Yeah. In November?

In November, yeah. Yeah, late November, early December. Yeah, but that'd be dope to see the orchestra part. It's dope. What about the cosmopolitan?

Oh, cosmopolitan. is August 8th and 9th. No, 9th and 10th. And then that following weekend.

So we got four shows.

So eighth to the ninth, and then that following weekend. Yes, thank you. And then we're doing the Cosmo there. Um Yeah, man, you know what it is. I love it.

Yeah. And I'll be coming back from home, so maybe on the way back. It'll be fun. You know, Rod, you know, it's my wife's birthday. That's real.

Okay. August 9th. And he got a special one. Let me tell you something right now. This is like this, my sister.

Yeah, this is his little sister. Like, this is sister. She's older than me, but that's my little sister. Oh, yeah, yeah. This one is special.

Right. Run, I love you to death, but you're special. Yeah, then we'll keep it at that. We'll keep it at that. But yeah, so it's her birthday.

Okay. So if you're able to make it. You know, we're having a dinner. Are you gonna do something on that Saturday? Um, the 8th.

We're having dinner at Beauty. We're going home then.

Okay, but whatever. Come pull up. Wish a happy birthday. See the show. We'll probably do something after the show anyway.

Like have a few drinks or something. All right. Depending on how she feels, because it's all about how she feels. Ain't no question about that having. Ain't no question about that.

And so, so, yeah, Vegas, those weekends. Boston I'm trying to think. There's I'm trying to figure out any like special dates. If so, I'll let you know. But we're definitely doing Europe in late November, early December.

And It's crazy because there are some things in the works that I wish I could announce. I'll tell you off the air. Yeah. But um If it does come to fruition, you'll be the first to know. Let y let your folks know and everybody that that uh watches your pod.

So if it happens, Lord willing. It'll happen and we're gonna put it in there. It's gonna happen. Yeah, it's gonna happen. We're gonna put it in there.

Yeah. I appreciate you, brother. KJ. Come on. Oh my God.

Sorry about the screw-ups on the guitar. I really didn't know what I was going to play. No, but I like that. I didn't want to tell you. I just wanted you to play because it was beautiful, man.

Thank you, brother. I appreciate it.

Now, again, you invited me on, so I want to come on. That's right. Tell them about your podcast. On that note. There's a podcast that I created about four months ago.

Right now, it's currently number one. And Music Podcasts and Spotify and a couple other platforms.

So I'm grateful about that. JJ's gonna be a guest.

So, make sure y'all look out for that episode. We're going to figure out the schedule after these cameras cut off so he knows exactly when he's coming in. That's right. But on that note, but yeah, we got B. Brown.

Coming up very soon. Again, his his His episode is amazing. I know it's bananas. It's off the chain. Come on.

And we got a couple others coming up that I don't want to mention, but they're coming soon. And yeah, check it out on Spotify, Apple, Google, and YouTube. There we go. And that's it. There we go.

My guy. Bravo to the legend. Shout out to Philly. That's good. And once again, you can catch the show at Jim Jackson Show, youtube.com, The Rich Eisen Show.

But also, too, wherever you download any of your podcasts, please, please take a little time and download ours as well. Thanks again for tuning in to the Jim Jackson Show. Mic drop. You ready? Former U.S.

Navy SEAL Mike Ridland uncovering truth with the heroes who live to tell. Yeah, well, you go to the sound of the guns. It's weird. I mean, I've had so many near-death experiences. What if the units took a guy out back and shot him?

Bam, you're gone. I would choose to do what farmmen do. That's what I chose, and it's what I would choose again. Mike Drop. Follow and listen on your favorite platform.