The Jim Jackson Show: Gary Payton

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Not available in all states. Thanks for joining me. It's a special, special edition of The Jim Jackson Show. Normally, we would tape it, air it on a Thursday, but with the NBA Finals in Game 3 starting tomorrow, had to get my man on Gary Payton, nine-time All-Star, of course, nine-time All-Defensive team, two-time gold medalist winner.

Won a NBA title with the Miami Heat in 2006, so I had to get him on to chop it up a little bit, not just about the finals, but his experiences playing in the finals with Seattle, but also with Miami. We're going to talk a little bit more about the current situation of the NBA, NBA Finals, and some more stuff. GP, what's up, my man? How you doing? What's up, Jimmy? How you doing, buddy? I'm good, man.

I got no complaints. And before we get on to, you can also follow The Jim Jackson Show at Jim Jackson Show or YouTube, youtube.com slash Rich Eisen Show, and also other places where you download your favorite podcast. Please join in. But, GP, listen, man, first of all, always good to see you. I get to see you this weekend in the Big Three, and we're going to touch on that a little bit. But what are you thinking about these finals right now?

You know what, Jimmy? It's great to have basketball like this because these two team match up really well. They got two athletes at guards, and they play that way.

They play defense. That's what I like about these two basketball teams. Indiana has been special this year, making big upsets, beating people when people didn't think they were going to be surviving like that. But Oklahoma gave them a game on game one.

They struggled a lot, didn't make a lot of threes, and then let them come back and beat them at the end. Indiana does that. But then, you know, Oklahoma comes back and blows them out by 16.

That's just good, man. Indiana did what they had to do. They took home court advantage.

Now let's see if they can hold it. It's a good Oklahoma team down there, man, with the MVP, reigning MVP right now, playing for them. And he's having a great finals. So I just like this type of basketball, man. It's great basketball to me to see these two teams battling and to be one-one at this stage. Well, speaking of that, too, that's why I wanted to talk about that first. 1996, you finally get your first shot at an opportunity in the NBA Finals.

Very talented. Well, I thought your roster was probably more talented than the Bulls at that time, the roster makeup. But it was a guy named Michael Jordan, of course, and Scottie Pippen that played. But you know, they ended up winning the series 4-2. Walk me back through your first experience playing in the Finals, in particular against that Chicago Bulls team.

Well, Jimmy, that was an experience, man. We had got tired, though, man. You know, we had did, you know, I think we had did two game sevens in that front. I think we did Utah and somebody else.

I think, no, I think we beat Houston and beat them. But the series before that game against Sacramento was pretty tough. And then I had hurt myself during that time.

I tore my calf muscle. And it wasn't that. But I thought we didn't play to win. We just played to survive. And against that team, we we couldn't do that because they had guys at every position to play so very well. But the two that beat us and hurt us the most to me were Rodman and Kukoc.

I think they were the two the two players that beat us in that series. I think Jordan did what he was supposed to do. And then when I start guarding, we try to slow it. We slowed it down a little bit. And then all of a sudden Pippen got slowed down. But I think the two that killed us was was was Rodman and Kukoc.

Even Luke Longley had a great, great series, man. He was playing very well to get a lot of rebounds, putbacks. They just had a team that was well built. And our team didn't play the way we supposed to. I didn't think Detlef played the way he you know, he usually played. He didn't have a great series.

And then all of a sudden, I heard she didn't have a great series and Sam Perkins. We struggled a little bit, but you know, we got two games out of it, but it was just too late, you know, and then they did what they supposed to do. They beat us in game six in Chicago.

You know, it's funny. I'm glad you brought that up about the two that kind of beat you because I'm, you know, I'm a bigger Michael Jordan fan as there is. I think he's right behind Kareem as the greatest ever played a game. But during that series, Mike did struggle because people don't understand either everything. The highlights about Mike is going to be all these game winning shots and the big numbers he put up, which he did. But in this particular series, Mike only shot 41% from the field. He averaged 27 points, but he averaged 31 during the regular season. And he had three games G in that series against you where he shot six for 19, he was nine for 22 and he was five for 19 and three out of those six games.

So as much of the nostalgia is a, the dominance of Mike, he did struggle somewhat shooting the ball a little bit differently in that particular series, uh, than he did at any other time during the season or any other finals. Can you attribute that defensively? You kind of made him uncomfortable a little bit more than other teams may have done in the past.

Well, yeah, you know that, you know that Jimmy, that's, that's what, that's what it was all about. It was about me not stopping him. We can't stop him. Yeah. We can slow him down.

You know what I'm saying? And that's what I, all I wanted to do. I just wanted to make him uncomfortable and which I did.

I made him uncomfortable. I kept working. I kept working and I kept making him, you know, take difficult shots and over shots. He usually make them type of shots, but when you got a lot of guys flying at you and helping and doing things, it made it very difficult and tired him out though.

Really? Because I kept, I kept going at him. I kept hitting him.

I kept trying to get a fronting. I tried to make it really hard for him. And then on the other end, I, I, I tried, I chose to go at him a little bit more. And then at that point, that's when, you know, um, Phil made an adjustment where he switched Scotty, a bigger guy on me to stop me from posting up and going out.

And then Michael got very upset about that because he wanted to take the challenge, which I knew he would want to. And that's what made the difference. You know, he, he shot, he didn't shoot the ball very well after game, what, game three, he didn't shoot the ball very well. And then all of a sudden, you know, they made adjustments and they started going to Kukos and, and, and Rodney was getting all kinds of rebounds. He was frustrating Sean a little bit. Sean had a pretty good series anyway, but he was frustrating. He was getting key rebounds, great, good defensive plays.

And it just, it was just a difference during that time when they had them too. But we did make Michael struggle a little bit. That's what we supposed to do to a great basketball player, a player that, you know, no, he's going to score. You know, you can't stop him.

You just got to try to slow him down. And we made him under his average. And that's all we wanted to do to have a chance to try to win, win that series. You know, it is interesting too, because being the defensive player, you were especially playing at the point guard position. You were guard two, two guards, whether that was Reggie, it was Mitch Richmond.

It could have been Clyde Drexler, all the really good players, Clyde Drexler, the two. And I tell people this all the time, guys like that, you're not going to stop them because their usage rate is too high. They're going to get the ball, but can you make them what you're saying?

Can I make them less efficient? And I think when, when you had this conversation before G people took it as you saying, well, if George, Carl puts me on him sooner, I stopped Mike. That ain't what you're saying. You're saying, you're saying I can make him make it a little bit more tougher on him to go get his money. And that's, that's what, that's what I wanted to clear up right there.

And that's true, Jimmy. And thanks for doing that because people don't understand. A lot of people look at it in a certain way and some people will look at it a different way. I told everybody, it's no way you could stop a great basketball player or score because he gets the basketball too much and qualities of shots. And when the guy can score the basketball the way he can score, you're not going to stop him. What I was saying is I was making it difficult and making it different for him, not comfortable because when you let a guy be comfortable, yes, they're going to get in a rhythm.

If I get him out of the game and make him do different stuff than what he's not used to doing, then that'll be giving me the advantage to try to stop him and take difficult shots and take shots that he didn't want to really do and rough shots and rush shots. And that's what, what happened. He started rushing it.

He started trying to take the challenge on that referees, what giving him the calls. We just let me and him play basketball. And that's what I wanted to have.

I just want it to be difficult and different. And that's what it, that's what happened after game three, four or five and six. That's what I made happen. I made it, made him take difficult shots. And then other people started to step up and they just did what they had to do by that time. We were down three, oh, right. It was too hard for us to come back to win four straight in a row against a team that just set a record at 72 and 10 and played very well.

People don't understand. We won 64, 65 games. We built in a regular season. We beat them in a regular season.

They lost us one of them 10 times. You know what I'm saying? So it was one of them times where people just don't understand the basketball. You don't stop people.

You make them uncomfortable and make them do things that they ain't supposed to do. You know, you're such an iconic figure. I don't think people understand how much of an iconic figure you are.

I do in Seattle, but from being around you, all the stuff that you do, you go back and do, because people at our age group and maybe a little bit younger, understand the great basketball culture that's in Seattle. And for you to be there during your time, but not to be able to get a title. Any regrets with that? I do regret that, Jimmy, very much. You know, I thought that after 96, we shouldn't have broke the team up. Sean shouldn't have left the following year.

He left in 97. And then we lost to Houston or somebody on a bad shot or whatever, but we shouldn't have broke that team up. I thought we had a good run after we went to the finals in 96. We had about three, four more years to try to make a run, but we didn't, you know, we broke up one year later and then all of a sudden I'd start playing with different basketball players all throughout after that for seven different years.

And that didn't, it wouldn't happen. And that just spoiled it for the, for the Seattle fans and for the city of Seattle, because we did have a great team for seven straight years, seven good years, we had a great team. And we, we, we was, we should have went to more finals, but you know, we was running into the Utah's too.

You know what I'm saying? They were pretty good, but I just think if we'd have kept that team together, it would have been a little bit different. And I'm very disappointed that we didn't get a chance to try to win a championship more times than we did.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's a trip too. And then like you talked about movement for you, then it was, you know, you went with the Lakers, with the Bucks, with the Celtics. Ultimately you ended up going to Miami, but here's, here's GP, the glove here, this iconic basketball figure for iconic franchise playing, but then it was, you had to move on. And not only did you move on, you moved on to multiple teams. How did GP, how did GP handle moving away from Seattle to these different teams?

Ultimately ended up getting to Miami to win one, but that in between stage, how did you handle that? Jimmy, it was a decision that I made. I didn't want to leave Seattle in 2003. It was just that the culture there and the, and the ownership had turned bad, you know what I'm saying? It had turned bad and we weren't, we weren't on the same page and it was time for me to make a change. You know, I didn't want to make the change, but they wanted to, you know, they wanted to do more things of an entertainment thing, which, which a lot of teams are doing now with a lot of their owners, you know what I'm saying? But we were at the end of that. We were trying to win.

You know what I'm saying? Then I decided if I do move and do get traded, I'm not going to be loyal to a team like that no more if, if an owner comes in and want to do it like, like a business. And that's what it is.

It's a business. And I didn't really understand that at first. And then I started running. So then I chose just to only sign one year deals. That's all I wanted to do.

One year deals. If it didn't work for me, I'm going to go on to the next team and see if I can work to get a championship. And then it was just nothing but a chase, a championship at that time, Jimmy, I wasn't even really trying to play basketball anymore because I felt that I left the team that I was supposed to be.

And that made me. And so I didn't want to try to really, really be at no other team for five and six years. It wasn't that I could have went to a team, make sure that you let me tell you Portland for me, Portland offered me up. I got traded and went to Milwaukee for two months.

They offered me a four year deal to be there. I could have did that, but I decided, no, I wanted to go and try to win a championship. So after the Laker thing, I didn't even think I was going to go anywhere else, but the Lakers decided they want to do something else.

And then I said, forget it. Let me just start to try to win a championship. Boston came.

They, they wanted to do something. Wasn't really a team for me because we didn't have all the pieces. We only just had me and Paul Pierce. And then they went and got Antoine Walker. That wasn't really a fit for us. You know, we were young and then all of a sudden Miami came and it was just a no brainer with all the players that we had on there. Great players that was on there that I knew that we could have a chance to win a title.

And so happy we did. This episode brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game, shifting a little money here, a little there, and hoping it all works out? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can get a better budgeter and potentially lower your insurance bill too. You tell Progressive what you want to pay for car insurance and they'll help find you options within your budget. Try it today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law.

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Learn more at navyfederal.org. You're strong minded. Pat Riley, who eventually took over for Stan Van Gundy. I played for Pat, so I know what it is with Pat. Okay, I want you to give me a couple of stories, but how did that work with you and Pat? Because I know you, G, and I know Pat. Yeah, that was, Jim, you know what that was about. Me and Pat got into it a bunch of times a lot. We were cussing and hollering at each other a lot, but you know what? That friendship got so good now that me and Pat is really tight.

You know what I'm saying? Pat had already told me that he wanted me for a long time. You remember, Jimmy, he came after me in 96. He offered me the most money over to Seattle to come to Miami, but I just didn't want to wear my body down because I knew about his practice styles and how long I wanted to be in the pros. I didn't want to tear myself down. So when I went to him at a later stage, my mind was already set up.

I'm a probably be in the Hall of Fame. I'm an OG dude, man. I'm in my later state. I'm 36, 37 years old, and I just didn't, I couldn't deal with it. I couldn't deal with what he wanted to do and the way he talked to us and the way he did things. But I understand he's a winner. He had to where he was. And then I had to go and talk to, to Magic Johnson. I had to talk to guys like that to say, yo, how can I deal with this guy about what he's doing so that I won't blow up and he won't blow up. We had a lot of times that we did.

I even got all got Shaq off of him one time. You know, you know what, you know, pattern gets you to them stages, but all he wants from you, you know, Jimmy is the best. That's it. That's the only way he can coach. And that's the only way he managed teams is to win. And that's just the way he did it. He did a Lakers like that and they won a lot of championships.

And then he won his first title with Miami and then he went and put a team together with LeBron and then we won more. So, you know, that's just the way he is. And I just had to accept it.

And, you know, we clash, but right now me and him are great friends. You know, we're going to be in a big three and in a couple of, in a couple of weeks, we've already planned on doing something out there for that team that during that time, you know, that team that won it. And I'm doing a lot of things while I'm there.

I'm going to get there early. So that's just the way it is. And, you know, I respect Pat. You know, I know he respects me, but during the time, you know, we, we, we bumped heads, but we worked through it.

Bro, I'm going to tell you this. When Pat, one, a couple of things I say about Pat, one, he expects you to be a professional, come do your job. If you do your job, do what you're supposed to do. You go play. And he expects that, you know, and you are a professional that you come to work and you, you know, you study your film, you do all the work.

You're going to be in great condition. Okay. Because of that. So he expects you to do your job and a lot of coaches don't.

So I think a lot of times Pat being old school is bringing that mentality that, listen, I'm not here to cuddle you. I'm not here to baby you. You got a job to do. I got a job to do. I will say this. The organization from top to bottom is just one of the best. I mean, they take, they take care of a lot of stuff, right?

Like off the court stuff. They try to take care of, eliminate any problems you got. Right. They do. They do that.

Let me tell you something, Jimmy, that I'm just going to be honest with everybody. That's probably one of the best organization I've played for in my whole career because they do everything top notch and Pat doesn't take anything from anybody. He wants it to be top tier. It'd be the bikes that we rode on. We don't have the top bikes.

Bikes will cost a thousand dollars a bike. You know what I'm saying? He's going to have everything. The planes that we had, we had everything going there.

You were right, Jimmy. If you do any, you do the right things by him and play hard and do and work and get in the gym and do what you got to do. It's going to be top tier and it's going to be A1. You know, even bringing us to the houses, having dinners and having team unity things and going to the movies and stuff together. That's what we did.

We did things like that. And that just one of those in top tier. And especially with the ownership there, you know, Mickey Erickson on Mickey. Yeah. Mickey, one of the best. It was one of the best owners that I ever played for too.

Hands down, hands down. Right. He's a part of everything.

He lets you let you be, you let you talk, you know, even his son and his wife was involved with a lot of our things, coming to a lot of events, being there, being supportive. And that was just one of the things that I loved about it when I got there is because seeing that on their organization and not an organization where they just bring you in as a piece of meat. No, you're supposed to win for me. That's it. Don't about your business.

No, that's not it. They wanted you to have the top stuff. They wanted you to be right. They wanted you to be in shape.

They wanted you to have conditions, top doctors, top everything. And that was just the way they work. Hey bro, listen, one time we were, I don't know, we were playing, we played well and we were in between Western conference trips, right? Two stories. One, we were flying either to Denver or from Denver somewhere else. Man, he took us to Vegas one night, you know, one night.

Now we had to be responsible when we was there because we will have practice the next day and do some stuff. But Pat would give you those little nuggets. He would show you a little side like that. He'll be out to dinner. He may buy you dinner then he may not talk to you the next day and practice though.

But he, he will show you. I think he was a kind that he really didn't want the room to really read him the right way all the time to really know. He kept you on your toes. One time, gee, we're playing the rockets in the old summit.

We can drill at halftime, right? I mean, he come in on that chalkboard bro. And, and I mean, just went off.

Then he took this 18 karat gold B-Blows watch, slammed it up against the back. I mean, against the whiteboard. We go out, come back. I ended up hitting the game, winning shot, you know, to win the game.

We run off after the game. He goes through his stuff, man. He gave me the watch. It was broke. I couldn't fix it.

I tried to fix it. But that, but that, but that's an example of Pat rod. He'd get on you. But then when you do right, he'll, he'll also, he'll, he'll give you your flower, so to speak. And he'll let you know, okay, this is what I expected.

This is what, this is what you did. And that's all about being a pro and why I brought up Miami for you. I wanted to know, and I'm going to talk about the finals right now. What it finally meant for you after kind of going through that chase a little bit of not getting it 10 years before in 96, but getting it in 2006, what, what did it mean for you and your legacy to finally be, cause you accomplished so much more, but to finally be able to get that ring? Well, you know, Jimmy, during that time, getting a ring was, was, was really misunderstood, you know, because people would say, you need a ring to complete your whole career. Right. So now if I look at, uh, John Stockton, uh, Charles Barkley, they didn't win rings and they didn't, and it doesn't make a difference about their career. The career is still one of the best basketball players ever to play in the game. And that is the ring didn't have to solidify them to be who they were.

I was thinking that way, you know what I'm saying? But it's always great to win a championship and get that feeling the hoist, uh, uh, uh, O'Brien trail trophy up, kiss it, had a champagne going down. No, I'm not saying that's, that's not the ultimate goal.

That is ultimate goal. When you play in the NBA is to do that. What I'm just saying, it's not solidifying my career that didn't solidify my career. It made my career better. It made it better because I can say that I can say I won a championship. I can say I did that.

And then I did it with a great basketball team. So that's, that was great for me to do that. And it felt really great, especially when you have your kids, your mom, your dad, everybody there, we're looking at you, celebrating it with you on somebody else's home floor too.

And you just having a great time. It's beautiful. I even experienced that Jimmy with my, my, my son in 2022, winning it on the Boston Celtics floor, me walking back there, doing that and only being one of the five daddies and son to win is great. It's great feeling. And I know my son felt great with you having the goggles on and taking a picture with the trophy and he having a good time.

That's a beautiful thing. And I, and you know, I experienced it twice to win it. It's almost like I won it when he won. Let me ask you this though, but, and this is just from being the ball player. Did it take a little shine off of that championship because you were more of a role player then if it would have been in 96 or 97, when you were kind of really instrumental and kind of leading a team to win a championship. People would say that though, Jimmy, not really. I think if I won it in my younger years for Seattle, yeah, it would have been great. You know what I'm saying?

It'd be a thing, but you got to understand it, Jimmy. I made big shots in all, in about three or four of them games to make us win games. And even plus playing the minutes I played, Jimmy, I still played 30 something minutes a game in the finals. I played almost 33, 34 minutes a game and was on the floor at the end of the game, making great defensive stance, doing that thing and all that.

It didn't make any difference. It was just that it was an age, older age. I wasn't moving no different because you understand Jimmy, we always was in shape. We were in shape in Miami. I felt like I was 22 when I was in Miami.

Ain't that body fat, ain't that body fat once a week and weight once a week. Hey Jimmy, I was at five percent, four percent, five percent, at thirty-five. I was five point five at thirty-four.

I was at 37, I was at five percent body fat. I was like, what the heck? So I'm like, I was feeling great. And you guys, like I said, Jimmy, I was making big shots.

They were giving me the ball in times where I was making shots, throwing high, high layups, that was only twenty-two point five. I was thirty-six. I was good, but to win when I was twenty-six would have been great. That would have been beautiful, you know what I'm saying?

But thirty-six didn't make any difference because I felt like I was still twenty-six. Man, that's a beautiful thing, man. And you know, I felt it because I could tell by having an impact on that, that it meant a lot.

Finally got that. And even if it's still like a burden to look, you want to, I never got that feeling. I never got a chance to be able to be in a finals to understand what that feels like to, I got to Western Conference twice, finals twice, but to be in the finals, the only two teams playing, all eyes are on you. The emphasis on game planning and all of that, the competition and you know, the little things separate the team and then ultimately you're able to cut down the nets and the confetti is flying from the ceiling and you got the trophies and everybody, then you got, man, that is a feeling, man.

That's great. And then you going into all of them media rooms. We're in the back, man. Great feeling, man. You know, like I said, I got experiences again with my son. I went to the finals myself three times, lost twice and won once, you know what I'm saying? And still got that opportunity to be the final two, to be there, you know, with the Lakers, with Seattle and with Miami. So, you know, it was a great feeling, but to win it, it's a little different, man. You feel a little bit different, man.

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Venmo purchase restrictions apply. Speaking of final series, so you got two teams. OKC seems to be the team that's going to eventually probably win this.

They're deeper. The defense that defensively what they can put on Indiana can't be duplicated not just by Indiana but any other team. But SGA, special type of player. Doesn't use his athleticism.

Gets you a spot. Loves his mid-range game. Take me in your mind for Gary Payton. You're used to guarding bigger guys.

Shea is 6'6". If you're guarding him in today's rules, again, not to stop him but slow him down, what would you do? I would try to frustrate him a little bit and make him uncomfortable with a lot of things. He's very comfortable of getting to his spots and dictating you and hitting them and hitting his mid-range shot because he's good off the one foot step back and raising up over you. Me, you have to stay into him.

Once he gets the ball out of his hands, I think you should still pressure him, bump him, keep hitting him. It's just like a prize fighter. When you keep getting hit, hit round after round.

You know, Jimmy. You've been in a lot of fights. You wear down.

You wear down a lot. And I think that for him, you have to just stay at him. Just stay consistently being at him. Get him off the block.

Just like what I did with Michael Jordan. Get him off the block. Make him do things that he do. Make him pass the ball.

Strip at the ball. Hit at his hands. Make his hands uncomfortable. Make his hands hurt.

Do things like that. And I think, hopefully, that he'll have a bad shooting night. And hopefully, you can control him a little bit. But you're not going to stop him. He gets too many times with the ball in his hand. He gets too many times to make opportunities for him to shoot.

And I just think that makes him uncomfortable with what I would try to do for him. It's interesting. You've got two teams that I think people thought that OKC would be in this situation just because of last year.

Of course, Indiana was not on people's radar. Even midway through the season of going to the playoffs. But they both have similar paths to success as far as building their teams. Young talent. They play defense.

They like to run. We know in the NBA, when you win a championship, other teams like to copy. They wanted to copy Golden State. Not so much Milwaukee, because that was a different style with Milwaukee.

But they wanted to copy Boston. Five players on the court that could shoot. Do you think that now one of these teams, when they win, you're going to start to see other teams saying, well, now, instead of having a Big 3, Big 2, we need to be 8, 9, 10 deep and play that rotation all year. Not just later in the year. Absolutely.

I think OKC have done a great job of drafting these players that could be right here. You know what I'm saying? Be the ones that play their role. And then when they get on the floor, they know who Batman and Robin is. They know Shay is Batman and Robin is Williams, the young kid who is playing well.

So you understand. And then the other ones, like Doric and all of them, they just go do their job. And then when they get an open shot, they go get it.

You know what I'm saying? And then they go on the other end and they play great defense. Everybody else knows their role. They know, hey, I'm going to get mine when I need to get it.

But Shay is going to be the man. If he doesn't make shot, if he doesn't go and get a bucket, when he give me the ball, I got to be ready and I got to produce. And that's what he got. And people don't understand that when they're coming off the bench, they're even deeper. They go 10 deep. They go 10 deep. You know what I'm saying? And they're all great basketball players and they're young and they know what to do.

You don't have an ego on there. The one thing I like about that OKC team is after every game, what do they all do? Oh, they get together.

Whoever gets interviewed, if it's not Shay, if it's Caruso, if it's Jaylen Williams, whatever it is, if it's Chet, they all get in the interview. And they all be together and they all get around and hug each other. And that's what I call a basketball team who cares just only about winning games, not about individual stuff.

They don't care about none of that. They just say, man, we all family, we all friends and let's do it. When I seen that, that's when you knew, that's when you knew this team is special, they're special and they're going to win basketball games and they're going to win teams and they're going to go deep. And once they get deep and I always tell people, Jim, I always say the team who is better united and better together is going to win a championship. The team who is the one who knows what to do and who is the man and who ain't the man. And I just play my role.

They're going to win. And when we won in 06 and I sat a meeting and I told Shaq, I said, Shaq, look, get older. We can't go through you free throws.

You're not doing that. We got a young kid right here that you nickname Flash and he rolled and I said, we're going to go through him. And when we went through him and he averaged 35 and then he started kicking the ball to us, trusting us. And we playing defense and we started knocking down shots. We, we start rolling.

That's just the way it goes, man. You have to have a team that's going to do that. That Boston did it last year. True. They had Brown and Tatum, but when they start saying Brown was a man and he started doing his thing and then Brown kicked it in and became that man who won MVP. It was, it is what it is, but they all were together.

Yes. And that's very similar to the Indiana team. They probably not as deep talent wise as OKC is, but they're a connected team and their leader Tyrese Halliburton kind of an unorthodox game, so to speak, but still with his eyes loved. I think his best attribute, bro, just setting people up and passing the ball. He's a true point guard. True point guard. That's that's, he's probably the only true point guard him and Paul, Chris Paul right now. Cause he don't look to shoot first.

They don't look to shoot. He looks to get you off and he's going to get his points at the end or whatever he's going to do. And then he's going to wind up having 18 and 10 and 15. That is just him.

You know what I'm saying? And he makes big shots at the end. So he's a real true point guard and everybody always asks me what a point guard is. And I say, I say Halliburton is the only, him and Chris Paul right now is only true point guards really because you've got to think Jimmy, every point guard now, what do they play in college?

The two, the two, the two, and it came to the NBA and just converted over to the one. So that's what I say. Being a true point guard is, is, is, is rare right now. And you know, in our day, we were true point guards.

True. You know what I'm saying? We wanted to get everybody on me, John Stockton, uh, you know, Tim Hardaway a little bit, Kevin Johnson, you know what I'm saying? Rod Strickland, all the boys, we were pretty good. Mookie, Blaylock. Oh, they don't give Mookie enough credit, bro.

They don't get Mookie enough credit, but Mookie. Well, he was a hell of a defender. Even, even when we had Muggs and Bogues and all them dudes man in there, man, you know, that was true point guard type of situations.

You know what I'm saying, man? It's, it's, we know it's gonna be interesting in, because very similar, like you talked about how can Tyrese, because he's being judged right now by not scoring the ball well. And now this is a tough, long, um, deep OKC team that can put multiple people on him, not only him, but him and, um, Siakam too.

You know, by watching those games, what does he have to do to be a little bit more effective offensively against this OKC team? Well, Jimmy, I think what he has to do is be a little bit more aggressive. He has to understand that, yeah, I got to go and score a little bit more. Let's make these guys understand that.

Yes, I can do it. Not always trying to take threes, get to the bucket, create something. Because if he goes to the bucket and scores with his ability of his height and it's good, jump over people and score, what are they going to do is start doing now, uh, then Jimmy, they're going to start converting that's down on him. And then he can start kicking it. And them shooters are going to start being open.

He just don't, don't have to listen to these media people. I don't care about none of that. I would go in there and be more aggressive. That's all I would be. I would be more aggressive early. I would be early to make them understand, well, they're going to have to stop me from getting to this bucket. And then if you try to stop me, I'm going to stop on a dime and I'm going to pull up mid range. I'm going to hit this shot, then make shots. Then you can start dishing and then you can go get all them rebounds, get the ball off the, off the board and push it, just push it and keep going. And I would be more and more aggressive. That's all I would be right now with him. I wouldn't change my game for them. I wouldn't listen to about, I can, he's not a scorer, all that, whatever you've been doing it all season, just go and be more aggressive.

And I guarantee you he'll be effective. I can't wait to see what happens in game three, make, because now back in Indiana, they have home court, how they respond to what just happened in OKC is going to be interesting because the crowd will be electric. I know for some NBA fans is not the series that they want to see, but if you love really great, true basketball, offense and defense and depth and coaching and adjustments, this is a series.

And before we get out of here, bro, I'd be remiss if I didn't bring this up because we're going to be together this weekend. This is year eight of the big three. Nobody thought it would get this far. We were there from the beginning. I know why I did it because I wanted to support Cuban.

I thought it made sense. But for you, somebody that's busy, somebody got a lot going on during the summer. You got a lot you do at the NBA and other stuff. What made you one, want to coach and do it at the beginning? But why do you continue to stay with this as it continues to grow? Well, well, Jimmy, that's a great, that's great, great for that.

Great for you to do this for Cuban and all that and big three. And that's a great question because at first they wanted me to play basketball. And when they came at me, I told them, no, no, no, no, that's not what it is. And then the first year they really didn't get it. Jimmy, they didn't get it. It was tough that first year.

It was tough. Yes. They want people that's in shape. Now they get it. They get it. It's, it's, it's, it's a lead that gets it now that we have to have younger players when they started and they, they, they pushed the age limit back and started having 20 or the 23s and all that. It started taking off.

And you know, my main reason is the same thing was for you, me and Ice Cube's relationship. Yeah. That's it. That's it. That's it.

Yep. When he started it, if somebody else would have started this, probably I wouldn't have knocked it. You know what I'm saying? And the reason I'm still around is because of Ice Cube.

You know what I'm saying? You know, the way they did me about my team last year, it's a challenge for me. It's a challenge for me to do things. When I had three headed monsters, I took them to the finals every, almost every, every year. You know, and people don't understand, I'm probably the winningest coach in there. I'm probably the winningest coach in the big three. So, but you know, it's a challenge, man. It took me from going to the championship a lot with three headed monster and not winning.

Then taking over Bivouac for two years, three years and winning it. Now I'm taking over the ball hogs of Boston and putting that team together. It's a challenge for me. And, and, and I know Cube, man, they want to put it on me. But they know you can do it though. You see what I'm saying? That's the thing.

It's a catch 22. They take some talent, but they say, if we go put a coach or ask a coach to coach a team that hasn't been as successful, like Bivouac wasn't before and ball hogs struggled the whole time. Now, here's the guy that can do it for us. So that's, that's, that's, that's a lot of credit to you, bro. Yeah.

Yeah, it is Jimmy. And I, and I appreciate it. You know, I take on any challenge.

I don't care about nothing. Let me take on anything. You know what I'm saying? Even this year, man, I'm telling you the team that I put together, Jimmy, I think we got a good shot, man.

We got a tough team against Nancy Lieberman this week. You know, we played Dallas. That's going to be a tough challenge for us, but I got some players that can play. We're going to play my style of basketball and I guarantee we're going to win. You know what I'm saying? And I feel good about it.

This challenge is great. Like you said, you know, I hate, hate that Rick is gone and you know, he struggled with his team, struggled a little bit about the things, but it's a, it's a new thing with this team. Now I'm bringing a new culture there and hopefully that we can, we can get a couple of weeks to win and be successful. Bro, you know, I appreciate it, man. I look forward to this weekend because year eight getting better, but then how we hang out, talk, communicate, get a chance to, to really kick it a little bit, man. So I appreciate, I appreciate you taking the time, sharing your insights, just kind of where you were at during those early years at Seattle to where you were at as a mature veteran and now a champion in Miami, and just kind of giving us a little bit more insight too, on the finals that is going on right now between OKC and Indiana.

So bro, enjoy the game tomorrow. I know you're doing a lot. I know you got to travel and look forward to seeing you this weekend, man. Well, you know what, Jimmy, you know, if it wasn't for you, you know, you like little bro, man, man, you was in Fox together on the show and did everything.

We, we got to hang out with each other more and be like, like little brother. You know what I'm saying? You know, you calling me. I'm just, just getting back off a big trip for the NBA. Sixteen hours on the flight.

I had to go to Mexico, then, uh, uh, India. So you know what I'm saying? But it was, but it was Chiching. It was Chiching. Hey, bro, you snip a little bit better.

You, you could be a little tired when it's like Chiching, right? I'm good, man. We ain't got to be that surprised. I'm cool.

You know what I'm saying? I'm cool. All right, bro.

Always a pleasure, man. Just look at me, man. Hook me up, man. You know, I'm right there for you. Okay. Thanks bro. All right. I gotta say that had to be one of my favorite interviews, just because I know with Gary Payton, again, thank you for joining the show. I know you're busy.

You're just traveling. You're coming back from making some money for the NBA, but, uh, it's, it's never easy coming back and then getting back on the show when you have some other obligations too, but GP thank you brother, because he shared a lot of insight from the early years of your career, how you progressed and grown. And I thought the key thing too, was that a lot of people, like he said, thinks that because he's GP, that when he finally won it, that it was, it didn't mean the same because he wasn't quote unquote, the man or the leader.

But he explained in that interview that that's not the case. So man, I appreciate, look forward to see him in this weekend. And once again, you can catch the show at Jim Jackson show, I G of course, youtube.com, the rich Eigen show, but also to wherever you download any of your podcasts, please, please take a little time and download ours as well. But, uh, I'll be out next week traveling again. Once again, it's that time of the year in the summer.

I'll be back stronger than other. And I want people to also understand it and have a great time watching and enjoying what I think is going to be some outstanding basketball. No, it's not the top markets, the top teams that you may have expected to be there, you know, maybe golden state or the Lakers, or it was New York. But when you really look at basketball and looking at these young men that are playing the game that are really growing and kind of the future of what the league is going to look like, you got us some really good basketball. I mean, and great basketball is going to be play. I think game three is going to be very interesting. Can't Indiana figure out a way, figure out a way to navigate through this tough, deep OKC defense.

Can Halliburton Tyrese have an impact early, like Gary said, to force OKC to have to collapse a little bit more and give them some shots. That's the beauty of a seven game series. It's the adjustment from game to game because each game is a little bit different. Guys play a little bit different.

Coaches think a little bit different. And that is the beauty of what we're about to witness in game three. So thanks again for joining me. I appreciate it. Again, next week, I'll be off. Look forward to catching back up with you afterwards. Peace out.

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