The Jim Jackson Show: Michael Wilbon

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Not available in all states. Welcome in. Today is May 1st. Winding down the first round of the NBA playoffs. Happy day.

Hope everyone had a happy and a prosperous April. A lot of stuff going on right now. Thank you for joining the show. Of course, you can join The Jim Jackson Show at Jim Jackson Show.

That's Instagram. Also, you can follow it on at The Rich Eisen Show YouTube or any place that you download your favorite podcast that you tune into. We're available.

I'm available. Thank you for always tuning in. Just sitting here thinking about kind of turning the page a little bit. Now we're going into May deeper into NBA playoffs.

This is going to be a conversation here a little bit in my guests that I'm going to talk about. We'll dig into NBA playoffs, but also to a little bit more journalistic view of things and how you cover sports past and present and where it's going. And speaking of covering sports, there's a lot of chatter today because I live in L.A. The Lakers played last night. The Clippers played today. But of course, the big news and the big conversation is all about the Lakers losing to Minnesota. Three to one. I mean, four to one.

And what is the what is the backlash? What is the ramifications of this series being over when the Lakers were assumed to be a legitimate threat, not only to get to the Western Conference finals, but to get to ultimately a championship and maybe get another one because of the trade with Luka. And the chatter right now has been throughout this series. You know, does it work? Does this Luka LeBron thing work? It looked like it did during the back end of the season and that they were going to be a legitimate threat. And also, more importantly, like, well, is this a really good matchup against Minnesota?

Minnesota is a team that was picked to finish in the top half, of course, of the Western Conference in the Western Conference at the beginning of the year. But whatever reason that the mesh early on, especially with Rando and Gobert and Anthony Anderson, I mean, Anthony didn't really work. And I think Anthony Edwards didn't really work to what all of the expectations were.

Okay. But yet and still, the later part of the season is when things started to click. Anthony Edwards kind of defined himself as a top tier player, of course, a legitimate go to guy, a guy that from a maturity perspective of starting to get it that played hard on both ends of the court. Julius Rando's began to figure out and define his role within the offense. Rudy Gobert figuring out how the spacing was going to work. You had my old, my old young head, which is my kind of manning up the ship, kind of keeping things settled. McDaniel's doing his thing.

It was just, it started to come together. And now the chatter, of course, is all around how Minnesota got it done. But why didn't the Lakers in particular J.J. Reddick and the coaching staff make the adjustment to play big for limited periods of time, not extended minutes for Jackson Hayes, 14, 16 minutes, 20 minutes, but it's extended minutes, not those extended minutes, but short bursts to be able to provide some sort of rim protection, a lob threat inside, some inside scoring, some kind of force against what the bigger lineup of Minnesota presented.

And they're all valid questions. J.J. Reddick is going to tell you because the way they look at it from an analytical perspective, offensively to them, based on their numbers, again, this is again, you got to go deep in this based on what they were able to calculate through their eyes and how they evaluated their game plan based on playing against Minnesota. They need a court spacing. In order to do that, they need to spread out and have shooting on the court. In their mind, you can't do that with the Jackson Hayes on the court because it limits the space. Again, not having him there all the time still provides you a little bit of depth in that center position. That's the game plan argument that the Lakers were willing to go with. And even more so, you bring back a Maxie Kleber who hasn't played for an extended period of time, who plays center a lot of times for the Dallas Mavericks in the small ball center position, but he's there because he can what?

Space the court. So I'm saying all of this to say that the Lakers had their game plan. Minnesota was a different animal. The adjustments that we're saying, and I say that weren't made, that maybe the adjustments, even if they did it, they weren't good enough to beat Minnesota, but were they good enough to be more competitive than a four to one series?

I believe so. So these questions, the philosophy is going to haunt this Laker team, I think. I'm not going to say for years to come, but in the immediate future. And we'll probably dictate what happens next year. And I know LeBron has his player option. Talked about Luka being in LA. What a thing about Luka being in LA is that you still have to sign him. He has another year left on this deal.

Now you have to sign his extension. Get him to believe that the Laker organization, the coaching staff, the roster construction is going to be there in order for him to compete. And speaking about Luka, a lot of people now are kind of, I'm not gonna say siding with Nico Harrison, maybe outside of Dallas. Let me say outside of the Dallas market about some of the explanations that he gave Nico as to why parts of the, what, what happened with the trade and why the trade to them needed to take place in particularly with Luka, the lack of physical conditioning, and also from the defensive end of the court. Now that did get exposed once again by Minnesota, by placing Luka in all of these actions all the time. And Luka is not, it's like Steph, Steph, a lot of people say, well, Steph can't play defense. At least he gave the effort consistently. He gave the effort. With Luka I think the question is, does he really give the effort? Because he may come up hurt on the defensive end of the court, but he has his legs on the offense end of the court.

So that lends into the argument. So all that being said, this is what I'm saying is that right now in LA is not a bad, is not a pretty picture with the Lakers and the franchise and where they go from here and what's going to happen next year. And you know, what's the Luka thing? Ultimately the best thing I think, I think it is for the Lakers long term because you have a European star at, at a young age, who's going to bring notoriety.

He's going to bring a lot of wins. I think the roster has to be constructed, right? The roster, you need defensive players around them.

You need a lob thread inside. You need shooting around Luka. And now Luka also is going to have to change his mindset.

I E like a yogurt who said, you know what? I need to get myself in better conditioning and not only get in better conditioning, but stay in better conditioning because in the long term is going to help me and improve defensively. My stamina late game situations, I'm going to be better, but it also shows a level of leadership. And I think that's important. That level of leadership is why Jokic is able to command the vote and be the voice in the room because not only did he talk about it, but he's shown.

I think that's the next level for, for Luka, the maturity level for Luka and maybe being around LeBron for this period of time will now start to trickle down to his mindset of how much more I think effective he can be as a leader. And as a player, once he gets in better conditioning, This message is brought to you by Navy federal credit union. May is military appreciation month, and we're celebrating the military community that goes above and beyond every day with Navy federal credit union. Navy federal was created for the military community and is dedicated to ensuring that its members feel celebrated and honored every single day for over 90 years. Navy federal's mission has been to support and uplift the military community.

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That's O'Reilly auto.com slash Eisen. And all of that being said too, and I'm going to dig into this because I got a great guest coming on the show right now. Michael Wilbon is coming on. Of course, you know him from PTI partner interruption on ESPN. He was a former journalist there at the Washington post have seen and been around everything covered major league baseball from NFL to college basketball, to the NBA, the Olympics. We're going to talk about a myriad of things, not just MBA, but his life journalism. Where's it going?

Where's it been? Can it get back to real credible writing, storytelling, all those things. I think are very important in today's world of ever evolving media space and no one better to hear from than the OG himself, but Michael Wilbon as promised dishonored to have a really good friend of mine, Mike Wilbon, of course, from everybody knows him from PTI and formerly also at ESPN with the sports reporter and NBA was a countdown to times that it ESPN covered everything, but listen, it was, it was very important that at this time of year, I kind of got you on the show for a number of different reasons.

Yes. We're going to talk a little bit about of course the NBA playoffs and where we're at right now, as we head into ending out the first round and then into the second round and ultimately NBA championship, but there's so much going on in the media space today. I just kind of wanted to dig into you, your background a little bit more, get your perspective because you've seen it, Mike, you've been there. PTI has kind of been like the standard bear marker, I guess, for sports, television and reporting. And even within the dynamics of what's been going on in today's world of media, it's still relevant. It's still, you got two journalists that are their journalists and, you know, I just wanted to start it off.

Like how was PTI still like the catalyst and still relevant in today's world of ever-changing media? Well, man, I appreciate you feeling that way. First of all. So when people are listening to us, this will, this will make me feel both proud and old. I got to be there front and center, as you know, for your, your college career, man, and then all the NBA years and the years as a broadcaster now. And I, I, I told you, but I needed to let people hear me say that's, that's one hell of a transition progression that you have made. And I'm just, I'm proud to see you in these spaces and now the podcast and hear, and hear your voice using the platform. I'm just, it's great to hear and observe and have a front row seat to all that. And man, our, our thing, Jim, we're 20, this show is 23 and a half years old.

You know, and I know you probably thought people were crazy when they put both of us on TV because you knew us in our previous life. And guys that, you know, that you like Gary Williams, who was instrumental in our, in our coach, Gary Williams hall of famer, of course, at Maryland, Ohio state. And Gary was one of those people, you know, you have to have people who say to you, get in your ear. When someone wants you to do something different, people get in your ear times and say, Hey, are you paying attention? Like your comfort zone is not important. This, this other thing, the world is moving. It's evolving. And then we're like, Gary, when I'm, when I say people like, I don't mean Gary was like in the chorus.

I mean, Gary's voice was important to both Tony Kornheiser and me and Charles Barkley. Yeah. You know, Charles took me to dinner and said, what do you mean you thinking about not doing this show? What are you talking about? Really? Yeah. Wait, wait, back up. So you thought about, so you were doing a sports reporter.

Now, keep in mind, people got to understand that you and Tony come from a journalistic background, go in you. What is it? What does it go in you? How you say it in Northwestern? What's what's the chant?

What is it? You said it, you had it. Yeah.

That's it. So, so, but you come from that because journalism school, but I wasn't looking at it. Wasn't my goal. That wasn't my objective to be on the broadcast.

Secondly. So now I was a print journalist, you know, working at the Washington, right. And I, you know, I just wasn't thinking about, I was comfortable. I was at the time to be fair, being compensated in a way I never thought I would. I was, you know, 18, 20, 25, 30 years old. And then, you know, ESPN said, we want you and Tony to bring what you do as journalists to the screen.

We're like, right. And when it knew us, you know, they were, you know, then Charles is one of my best friends for the last 30 years is Charles Barkley. And I was, I was with Charles. We were working on a book, Jim, and Chuck was like, he heard about the conversations because Charles is getting ready to segue, right. He's getting ready to transition to retirement in his own broadcast career. So he knows these conversations exist for different employers, potentially. And Charles, Charles and I were in Atlanta and he like, we're going to dinner.

We went to this place called a clubhouse in Buckhead. And he said, you, you, you got to talk this through. You can't just say no, the world is changing. And so I said, finally, after several of these conversations that, that Charles had with Tony and me, I said, okay, fine. If we do this, you gotta be the first guest.

You gotta throw it back at the first show. Jim is Charles first guest first day. But the difference too, I think with the credibility perspective, I think, you know, I think in today's world, a lot of that is lost and not saying that because of the social media space and the podcast that some people that are doing are not credible, but, and people can talk about Steven A. Smith all they want. And he has his own dynamic to what he does, but he's a journalist by nature. He was a print writer by nature. He covered the Sixers and teams, you know, back then. So he had to write and create the storylines and everything, just like you did. So you bring a certain credibility to the table when you speak. So as you have progressed through this and you continue to watch the evolvement of media in particular sports media, everybody's dipping their toe into it now. Okay. How do you, from an integrity perspective and you, you come differently, keep that journalistic integrity in place when you're not a journalist and you're reporting on these stories. You know what, Jim? You know, that's a central question to identity, right?

And product. And I try to, you mentioned my Northwestern roots and go UNU. I still wake up every day and go about this as if I was at the Washington Post and that's my bar. So I have a personal bar and it's not to say that everybody else, many people have a bar and they're great storytellers, some who are professionally trained and some who are not. Look, my, my favorite, I tell people all the time, they'll say, who are your favorite people to talk to? Sometimes they're professional storytellers. Sometimes it's just people who know how to do it, who know. One of the things that I, that I liked about when Charles was a player and we sat around and got to know each other was like, dude, you love telling stories. You got to figure out how to transition this. You know, when you get ready to retire, why look for something that you don't love when you love the art of storytelling. And so I try to answer your specific question and it requires a specific answer.

It does. I try to apply the fundamentals and the values. I don't try, I do to that, like multiple sides to a story. Sometimes you'll see me, like when you see me at games after all these years, I still love it, but I need to be in the locker room listening to people.

I need to hear their stories, need to see me. Like I don't want to get into dust ups with people that I rarely have ever had because people see you and they can say, Hey, wait a minute. That's not what I was thinking. Here's what I was thinking. Hold on.

What about this side? Very important. I have to have that.

I need that. So like, you know, this, this week, uh, when I was at, uh, I was at both series, you know, Clippers, Denver, I was at three series. I was at Golden State Houston and one of the, one, I just sat around for an hour. I was lucky with Jimmy, with Draymond and Steph guys, obviously who've been in this for a long time and I've known them all their careers.

And sometimes it's just a matter of getting perspective and letting them see you and Draymond say, Hey, look who the wind blew in. I got to talk to you. And that is like, some people like offended. Not only am I not offended, that's, that's the fabric of that's how you have meaningful conversation. That is it's engaged. The two sides should be engaged.

So I still want to apply the standards from all of that. If I can't get a call from Gary Williams after all these years, I've known coach Williams. I, I, I playfully call him now. He'll tell me to shut up.

He's not coached to me, but he is. I will. If I can't get a call from Gary or see Gary Williams in the golf course and him say, have you lost your mind or have you and Tony got crazy today?

I really liked what you guys did. I need to see more of that. Then, then you not, you're not engaged. You're not evolving. And so to me, all of that is required, Jimmy. So that's why, you know, it's back to the Clippers tonight, man. It's I need to, you know, those, the locker rooms and those, the assistant coaches and the head coaches, man, T Lou says he was, you know, long before he was getting stepped over by COVID by AI, you know, I've known T Lou. I, I there's a lot of people I look at and just respect tremendously.

I've known these guys as long as they, luckily I have people that help me in that evolutionary process. Cause if you try to do it alone, it ain't, it doesn't work. You have to have great producers and you know, producers and editors, we do, but you also have to have people that, that what's the phrase that holds you accountable. Hold you accountable. But you know what, here's the thing though, but with you, this is what I figured and I've watched because back even with the sports reporter and then of course with PTI, but then when you do NBA countdown and stuff like that, and you talk about it, I think there's a way that you earn respect from players, coaches, management, by how you report the information.

Yes. That doesn't mean you can't be critical. That doesn't mean that you can't criticize or look deeply into a player, coach or organization on what they're doing right or wrong. It's how you articulate that information. Cause are you respectful? Do you respect the other person, but at the same time you have an opinion and it's how you express it. And I think that's the difference with, I think you and Tony is that you can be critical on air and disagree with some things that are happening based on what you know. Okay. But it's not in a disrespectful term where the other person or other party feels offended. Okay. They just be like, okay. Right.

And that's, that's where I sit too. It's like I've been covering guys since, I mean, they, you talking about Dre, Dre, mine since he was in Michigan state, it's a way to be critical and you can have constructive criticism without being disrespectful. My mind is it is a slight twist on what you just said. Exactly. And mine is there's a difference between criticism and ridicule. Exactly. I'm not into ridicule. I'm not into cheap shots for, first of all, I don't care.

I'm too old to care about clicks damn about click. I don't. And people probably bosses hate me saying that cause I'll say it, but I don't cause I'm too old. I come from another world. And so my world is, do I have the respect of the audience and the people, just like you said, the people that I'm covering. And I, I, I w w I think the really the highest compliment I can get is if I'm talking about something and coaches are great with this and it's important because they're man, you know, how you coaches are out there for thumbs up, thumbs down every day of their lives. They got to deal with that. And that when I have guys say, Hey, I heard you on so-and-so we disagree, but I, I was, I get your point or I respect the pain or you didn't try to go after me.

I'm not in, I don't want to go after it. I tell young aspiring media people that, you know, they'll say, wait a minute. You and so-and-so are friends. And I heard you be critical on TV last week.

I'm like critical and ridicule criticism and ridicule are two different things. I'm not taking cheap shots. I don't, I don't care about that. I'm not interested in it. I don't really want to hear it.

I want to hear discussion that can be critical, but also be fair. And Jim, you mentioned at the beginning, man, when you talk about social media, it scares me, brother, that the direction of all this scares me. And I wonder, I wonder how long I've had, you know, I saw, I ran the coaches zone the other night and you know, he'll talk coaches over and I bought the same age.

You may have two years on me, not much, whatever it is, it ain't much. And he'll teasingly say to me, I heard you talking about retirement. You got to go anywhere. You better not go anywhere. You don't get to leave.

You don't get to leave the industry. You better, you know, that's a, that's high, high, high, high praise from Tom coming from Tom. Oh my goodness. And I get it, man. It means something to me. Maybe I ain't ready to just roll out just yet, but to me, there are standards that should be in place for any public discussion. And that's why the great podcast that people listen to and listening to credible people, bro, the reason why I would come to your locker so much when you were playing is because I appreciated your ability to discuss, not just the game, but whatever it was that we might've veered off into, you know, about sports and culture and all that. So the storytelling gym, the storytelling is important, no matter whose voice it is. And since I got a platform, I may as well do this right or get out, but how do you, okay. But for us being on, I'm sure, and kind of underneath you, but I grew up in that same era where not again, that doesn't mean that every journalist back in the day did not go after athletes, coaches.

I don't care if it's business, whatever it is. And they had an agenda. That's not to say it was always clean because it's not let's keep that real, but because it wasn't, but in today's world with the fame that comes attached with having a platform, like a podcast, whatever it is, I kind of dig into young people and try to meet them where they're at, not where I'm at. And I understand kind of why they want the limelight, why they seek it. And then why they do the things that they do to try to get clicks, to get attention. And that's so tempting in today's world because of the money associated, the fame associated with it, that it's hard to tell a young person that, no, you can't do it this way, but they're like, well, no, they're doing it this way.

Now they're famous and they got money and they got this lifestyle. So how do you teeter that? How do you, are you talking about the young up and coming faces of the media or sports world to be able to balance that with professionalism, but yet being able to offer your opinion in the right way? Jim, I don't know that I do it as well as I should. I do, I do, you know, lecture at Northwestern alma mater, more than from time to time and other places.

But I tell you where my toughest laboratory is in my house. I got a 17 year old. I got a 17 year old who does not want to go into media. They don't want to do what dad does. You know, we, we at that point, but, but every morning, so I'm on the West coast now.

So it was three hours earlier back in DC and going to school, high school and playing ball. And he, I get, I get texts like clips from him every morning. And I say, dude, what are you my producer now?

Dad, you got to talk about this, dad, you got to do that. And he'll say, why? And by the way, he is captivated by Steven. Hey, he knows, he knows Steven to him. And he'll ask me about, we obviously Steven and I are incredibly close and we have as different style as you can get and still work together and still, you know, hang out in our friends and all of that.

And my son, you know, the, the, the, the, the showman style appeals, Jim, just like you're suggesting house. Yes. Why don't you do it like this? And here's what I have to do.

You know, it becomes like being on the playground, talking some trash. I say, Maddie, let me ask you, Matthew's his name. I said, Maddie, let me ask you this. Anybody, how many people, you know, been on 24 years, right? How many people are on 24 years? How many people, when you wake up when you nine years old and say, dad, can we go to the world cup? And I say, the world cup is in Moscow. And you say, I know dad, but you can get us in the plane and fly nonstop to Russia with you.

How many? I have to flex on a gym. Otherwise he ain't listening. So you got to meet him where he's at.

I have to meet him where he's at. And that, you know what, you know what? I don't know that I'm that good at that because I was just at North Carolina and T and I was very grateful that I could see the youngsters who knew the difference and knew that these are various paths, all of which that can be successful, all of which that can work, but everybody not a showman, right? I mean, everybody's not, I'm not, I mean, I, you know, I, I'm not, I don't have that gene and I, and I really admire people who do, whether it's humor, whether it's boldness, whether it's flash, but I say to them, they're staying power. This has staying power. Tony and I've done this for 24 years, not to mention the 20 years that came before that.

Yeah. You know, and so it's been like this and I got 11 years on you. And so I'm, I'm freaked out by the whole thing, but, but, but Jim, it's a challenge, man. It's a challenge to try to get them to understand you. You still have to be accountable and responsible. And if you add all the bells and the whistles to what you do, you still got to come back to this court and they'll ask me, why do you talk to this guy?

Why do you, it's so funny. I have an editor, my editor who hired me at 20 years old. His name is George Solomon.

I owe him damn near everything. 21 years old, he hired me out of Northwestern. And when I was covering the big East, one of the people that I would listen to all the time and quote all the time in my stories in the Washington Post, he was 19 and I was 22.

I would quote a backup point guard named Mark Jackson. I think I know who that is. I think, I think I know who that is.

It sounds familiar. And Jim, my sports editor would come to me and say, Hey, don't you know there's a guy named Chris Mullen on that team? Of course, Chris was the star. And I got, it's funny cause I, I know Chris and Mark obviously well, and I tease those guys about that and they tease me. And the reason that Mark Jackson just had like, I think I'm a pretty good scout. If I knew when he was 19, that Mark had this, right.

And I teased him all the time about discovering it and, and, and Mully, Mully teased me last week about going to Mark's locker and not his more. And the funny thing is they're both in it. Right. And I'm, I'm able to interact with them as peers. No, I don't know that I get pleasure much greater than that because, because those guys, they weren't showmen, even though they were players, they were great players or Hall of Fame players, but that's not at the crux of their storytelling. You know, I think we're more similar and, and, and that, that is what attracted me to them when we were all young.

Long way, long way answering that question. But I think that the people I still gravitate to and I put up there as examples, you know, they're often not the flashiest, but they, but they're really good at it for a long, long time. And it's funny how like-minded people, you kind of gravitate towards that.

Not that you're ostracizing the other side and you don't appreciate what people do. Like you said, and I do too, but people that are very similar, it's crazy. Stephen, a and I same this share the same birthday, but we're totally different personality. I've been knowing Steven with the inquirer, you know, and that's my guy, but we're, we're, we're totally two different Libras. You know, that's not so funny.

I didn't know that. And Steven and I, you know, people, there are people who say, wait a minute, you guys are traveling together. You guys don't like, yeah, we don't have to be, you know, we don't have to be different sides of the same coin, but, but I think that it's important for, you know, as you mentor people and as you sort of present yourself to them, I think it's important for them to see the various forms, various ways, the various paths that this can be done, the various voices.

I love about guys like you doing this. I had to talk with Draymond the other night about this. I voices they're enough. They used to only be a handful of voices.

No, no, no, no, no. We need to have voices that we can consume. And we, we don't necessarily need to listen to everybody every day, but I'm glad there's a whole range and variety of voices that I can tune into and listen to be educated by and entertain and entertain.

Yeah. And speaking of that too, and before we transition with these playoffs, I'm going to, I want to get this from you because your career is a story. I mean, you cover with 10 Olympics, you got, you know, Listen, like wine, you age fine with time, brother, you know, you more mature than everybody.

That's what I like to say about people that are a little bit more mature and older than me, but whether it's NBA championship, NFL super bowl, the Olympics, MLB, I don't care. Is there a, is there one story? Is there one event that you cover that always just stands above the rest? You know, yes and no. So not one game or day, but the Olympics and why the Olympics, Jim, there's stuff that happens at the Olympics that brings you to your knees as a story.

I'll give you a couple. So I don't know if it was in Seoul or in, I, it might've been in Seoul where there's a Canadian sprinter and he's on, he's completing, he's on a track and he's Canadian. I can still see the uniform and he tears up his knee during the event, tears it up, like torn everything, ACF crumples to the ground and you're sitting there watching this and you're like, oh my God, no, I have a sense of what this person has put himself through to get ready for this moment since he was four or six years old. And here he is at 24 years old, 20 years of this, everything in his life is invested. He's on the Olympic track and he collapses and his knees torn up.

Okay. So that alone is an emotional enough story, right? The guy's father comes out of the stands, down the stairs to the track, picks his son up off the cinder block, puts his arm around his son and they finished the rest of the event.

He and his son walk it. That doesn't bring you to your knees. That's different right there. The times I had written through tears in my life were at the Olympics. And there's so many of those kinds of stories that I can't even keep track. I should keep track of them all.

You should. I mean, you were in the village. I mean, you were in the people don't understand you were in the village where you were around all of the athletes. You saw all of it. You heard the conversations, you saw the interaction.

Those things are so invaluable, which really they're not. Now I get it while you sit. Cause I was, I was in the Pan Am game, so I didn't get to the Olympics, but I understood what it's like being in the village and around all the different athletes. And you hear the conversations and you've done it 10 times. So that's 10 times of stories, languages, you know, having access to it, Jim is in there. That one story, I mean, there's so many stories like that.

And yes, look, I'm from Chicago. I got to say court side for all six world's championships. I got to sit court side for actually every conference final and every finals game, Michael Jordan played, I got to sit court side when he hit the first shot against Georgetown. When he was a freshman in college, I was there for that.

And it's super dome. The first, I think that, well, it wasn't really the first final four to dome because it had been in the Astrodome before, but I I've been front and center for, for all that for world series for CS, for Super Bowl. Let me ask you this, since you, since you were, well, you were at the game of the century with Alvin Hayes and new house center, UCLA, when I watched it, I did, I watched, you know, Jim, those are the things that made me want to listen. Once I figured out I wasn't going to be the starting second baseman for the Chicago Cubs. When I was 15, I wanted to marry the two interests, you know, storytelling and sports. And did I all my life, I mean, I grew up with my father on a sofa watching Cassius clay.

Oh yeah. My favorite, my favorite athlete of all time. And I'm glad you brought him up. I'm glad, I'm glad you brought this up.

And I, and I want, this is specifically for you. Here's my thoughts. And a lot of people try to compare and say, well, it'll never be another Cassius clay or why doesn't this athlete do it this way, this way. I said, listen, the circumstances around, and I'm a big Malcolm X guy.

I'm a big Karim Abdul-Jabbar guy back in the day and Bill Russell. The difference is this, this is why you can't compare the current athlete to those guys. Those guys lived in that neighborhood, in the communities.

Okay. Back in the sixties, when they were competing, when they were winning, when they were successful, because they couldn't live anywhere else at the time. So they heard the conversations, they were involved. They were in tune with the community, not saying that the guys like myself are not in with my community, but I don't live there.

They live there every day. So their sense of what was really going on on the ground was so different. So their activism was different.

Their sincerity was different. And you can't compare what they went through and why they did the things that we, that they did to the current athlete and not saying that the current athlete doesn't have an impact on their former community or a community, but it's too different. And that's why Muhammad Ali to me is my favorite of all time.

He's my favorite of all time too. People don't, and Jim, people don't realize that, you know, we've gotten into the discussion for the last maybe 10 or 12 years about GOAT, greatest of all time, G O A T. The original GOAT was Muhammad Ali because Muhammad Ali stood there after the Sonny Liston fight and said, you're going to call me the greatest of all time. That's where that comes from.

The note, the notion of GOAT did not exist before Ali spoken into existence. And so you're talking about living in the community. Muhammad Ali lived on the South side of Chicago while he was heavyweight champion of the world. He lived on the South side for a chunk of it. And I still know where his house is.

I took somebody by it not too long ago. And so when I was a kid, you can see, you could go out and see Muhammad Ali rolling dice on the sidewalk on the South side of Chicago on 79th street. I know because my father was out there with him. And so when you talk about being there, ground zero, they had to live it because the world didn't allow them to live elsewhere. So I grew up seeing, Ferguson Jenkins would put the kids in his car and say, Hey, get in the car.

You ain't supposed to be over here. And it's like my little league, Jersey mine, the little league teams that we have four teams in the little league said, Ernie Banks Ford. That's cause Ernie Banks made it impossible for us to have a little league because he sponsored it.

Otherwise my park on the South side of Chicago, West Chad and we ain't going to have no little league if it wasn't for Ernie Banks. So these guys, they lived with you. You saw them, you saw their kids, you saw their families and then later and they did it so that we wouldn't have to so that we could live where we wanted to live. And so that became possible, but it only became possible because they, they were confined.

They didn't have the options we had. And so you are a thousand percent right. And I'm a huge fan of the men and women who had that experience, understand it, understood it when they were with us and made it possible so that we could see something else. But while we can see something else, we better understand how we got there.

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This summer the mission is clear. Don't miss it. Real quick, I know you got to do the show a little bit later, but I want to dig into this since we're both in LA. Last night was an interesting night for a lot of Laker fans going down to Minnesota four to one after these expectations after getting Luca in all the stuff around it Lakers playing well, put them in position to be third in the West and potentially get to the Western Conference Finals and compete for another championship in your eyes. And I know it's a lot of rhetoric going on around about JJ Reddick and the substitution patterns and what happened in your mind. Is it the substitution patterns or was it this just this Minnesota team who didn't play well as well during the regular season with just a better team and a bad matchup for the Lakers?

Yeah, absolutely. It was a bad matchup. It's so funny. Kendrick Perkins and I talked about how we both sat there on the set and we both said Lakers in seven. And part of the reason why we said Lakers in seven because both of us were scared to actually go with the Minnesota team. So we were hedging and we, it's funny, we both admitted it this morning. And so, because there are limitations to that roster and JJ Reddick was forced into some stuff, but he certainly has to be, he has to be responsible for some of those decisions.

He made a calculated gamble about leaving those guys in the game. And I told a story about how Magic and Michael Jordan and Charles, I talked to those guys all my, their lives and all of mine is a reporter. They would always say during games, they would tell Pat Riley and Phil Jackson and whoever Paul Westfall, who's coaching Charles, they would be like, no, the timeouts are longer in the postseason. Leave me in. I can get rest that way. I don't know.

I don't want to come out. And the superstar players, you know, superstar players, they can, they can persuade their coaches to do what they feel they need to have done. All three of those guys will remind me, no, in the postseason, in the fourth quarter, you shouldn't be having your standard rest if the situation calls for you to stay in the game as a star. Now all five guys staying in, but you know, I think where the thing came up was that the Lakers are up 13. So you had an opportunity to sneak some rest in if it gets cut down to eight to 10 points or whatever it may be.

Now you can sub them back in. I think that's where the strategical comments are coming to pass on that is because they were up big enough to re even if they piggyback, if they took LeBron out first, came back with LeBron and rested Luca, then brought Luca back in. They finished the game the last eight minutes, whatever, you know, that there was a way, Jim and I, that I didn't go as far as some with the criticism of JJ, who I thought did a job in the regular season, but these last two games, it's fair. It's fair.

You've got second guessing coaches is like, that's an American sport, probably a worldwide sport. And last night I want to see Jackson Hayes in there a couple of minutes. I realize you're sacrificing offense, but you can't let Rudy Gobert go with 27 and 24, both personal playoff bests and have no resistance.

Like there's got to be some resistance. And so can you give Jackson, Hey, can he give you four or five possessions? I mean, look at one point, the Lakers take the lead twice by a single point or three times. We're talking about two or three possessions, determining the game and your ability to play on in the series. So no, you can't have Jackson Hayes out there 14 minutes.

I'm not asking that. No short stints, short stints, short stints, and basketball, what he does to think about this. And this is, I think what made Luca special with Derek Lively and Daniel Gafford was in that short role in that pick and roll the lob threat because you don't come up, you know, Luca can hit it. You know, LeBron can hit that little shot. You commit too soon. Now those little baskets in that back and forth game mean something.

Okay. Because it keeps the defense honest. Plus it allows you and Jackson Hayes is a pretty good rim protector too. So not only like when guys were driving towards Rudy, they will pull back out a little bit.

It can be the same case. And some of those shots that were being created by Minnesota may not have been there. And again, you can always second guess, but they, I think the Lakers are so locked into their game plan and, and, and it even says it Mike, by playing Maxie Cleaver who didn't play. So that tells you what the game plan and how they stayed with it instead of varying from it. Right.

They needed to vary at least show me, you know, show me something a little bit. And, and, and, and dad, I wanted to, and it wasn't like that was necessarily, I'm not rooting against Minnesota. I have a dear friend who works with the Timberwolves.

I'm not rooting against him at all. And I really have gotten to know Julius Randall and Mike Conley. I grew up on the South side of Chicago when Mike Conley's dad did OHIO. Yeah. That's right. Of course. OHIO.

He hit that big three baby. Yeah. Listen, I think I played against Mike Conley went to Arrival High School. Okay.

Arrival High School, Jim Quigley. So I, we go back longer than I even want to say out loud. So I'm, you know, so I got some connections, you know, Minnesota root for on the Timberwolves. I wasn't necessarily rooting for any one result. A longer series would have been fine with me, but yeah, you're, you know, you are a hundred percent right. There was a plan that they wanted to stick with no matter what.

And I, it cost them, Jim, it cost them. So now they got to go back to, and I know when, when they traded for Luca, it wasn't going to be an instant success. I did not see the Lakers getting to the finals this year.

Any of that. I did not see the Lakers beating OKC given just the incredible variety of ways that OKC can play you and beat you and kill you. But I didn't see him going out for one to Minnesota either. No, I don't think nobody saw that. No.

And they got to live with that. Well, you know what else? Think about this. It could be the case this year where the number two seed and three seed are eliminated in the first round and you got a six and seven that make it. Yes. You could have a six and seven, but we know how, how exactly the Western conference is insane.

Yeah. Those two golden state, once they got, got the deal done with Jimmy's different and we knew Minnesota, if they ever found it and they found it, what was that? Mid-March they won 21 out of 26 games. I kept saying every Tony was killing me because I kept saying every week, you know, Jim, they would go four and two for the four and one, and then lose three straight four and one and lose five out of six. It was driving me crazy because I'm like, okay, they got all the elements. And to me, I understood why they traded cat. And I understand how cat fits on the Knicks, but I thought Julius Randall was a really nice fit with what he does and could play with Rudy certain, you know, different spots on the floor that they can control in different ways. They can do it.

And I liked even chins on his energy in the way. So I'm like, okay, Minnesota's got every element. And I didn't understand why they were so often on through, like you said, they found it late. Yep.

Just join it, man. So there, they were more complete playoff team in the Lakers. Well, they didn't have the two icons, but if you just look at the team and by the way, Anthony Edwards, you know, Mike, he had the best single game of anybody in that series going 43 the other night. And so he didn't have to even do that last night.

And they were still able to win. How about going seven 47 from three and still winning on the road, but, but, but, you know, it goes back to show you too, having the ability to control the paint, especially in the playoffs, when possessions become very critical, mean something not letting me, there's a lot of pull-ups and you're not posting Rudy up. It's not like you sitting there. He's shocked on the post and he's getting 20 touches.

These are offensive rebounds running in transition, dribble drive. You, you dish it off. So with that said, and tonight, you know, we're here, my Clippers, my Clippers.

So I cover them all year. Yokich is just a, I played with Sabonis. Now, again, this is on the, this is, this is on the back end of his career, but it's nobody that I've seen. And of course, he's been compared to Sabonis day in and day out when Sabonis was young, the young Sabonis no idea.

I saw it when he gave us a numbers bill and give Ralph 30 and 20, a young Sabonis before the Achilles injuries in the knee, knee tears was unbelievable. So do my Clippers. I believe they do have a chance. And if so, what, what do, what do they have to do to win tonight? And to send the series to game seven on Saturday, they do.

And they, they got to survive. You know, I know that Jamal Murray, you know, talk about playoff performance. Jamal Murray going to get a playoff nickname pretty soon because he does some incredible things in the going back to the bubble. I think the Clippers win tonight, Jim.

And I think that they have to, Joker can do his thing. We've seen, and I know you've called games where Joker scored 45 in the playoffs and they don't win those games often because they can control. You have to keep Aaron Gordon from getting to the rim like that to make a critical play late.

You have to keep Jamal Murray under control. Michael Porter Jr. from having one of those three point rain days. I think the Clippers will do that. And I think that, I just think that I liked the way that, that Kawhi and Harden and big zoo, I liked the way they've been playing.

I mean, this could easily be, you know, three, two the other way. Man, this week of playoffs, just in the state of California have been unbelievable. So I am at two great games tonight, of course, with, with the Knicks, the nation, the pistons. Yeah. Shout out to JB Baker staff for what he's able to do. He was my coach of the year. I voted for him first because he took over a team that had been nothing, no disrespect to Kenny Atkinson, but that team had won 48 games. It was in the second round of the playoffs last year, the pistons.

Yeah. Play-offs win what, 2012? As boys, sons of the Midwest, like you and I are in our affiliate, big 10 lives. We pay attention to all the, to Detroit and Cleveland and all of that.

And you know, the pistons weren't, shouldn't be in this position. I give, I give JB all the credit in the world for that. Well, look, my man, you know, I appreciate you. I know you got more work to do for the rest of the day, but it's been an honor. I gotta go argue with another old man.

Hey, but the arguments are entertaining and that's why we continue to tune in and appreciate the work that the two of you do because you set the standard on how you cover sports, but more importantly, how you are able to articulate your opinion within that. And people can understand it. So you keep doing what you do.

You do that. I'll see you later at Intuit Dome. It's going to be rocking. It's going to be rocking tonight, baby. It's good to be able to talk with you like this to be, I'm honored to be on your podcast.

I appreciate it. And I'm looking forward to the night, brother, for sure. The only thing, the bad thing about being at the game is I want to hear you. So I'm going to go old school and I have a radio home. I would be doing that. Turning to the Clippers stream wherever I am on streaming so I can hear you.

So I'm going to do, I got to figure out a way to do that tonight, but I'm looking forward to it. Thank you, brother. I appreciate you, Mike. All right. See you in a bit.

You got it. Man, that, that was, that was deep. I could have talked to Mike for hours. I mean, just a plethora of knowledge, experience, the conversations that he had. And it was when I talked to him and I asked him about kind of his favorite moment of covering something, just the Olympics itself. And I, and I missed the Olympics in 92 because that's when the dream team came in and I can only imagine what it feels like to be on that stage as an athlete. But then also too, as a reporter, kind of just listening and gaining the knowledge and the stories and the history and being able to articulate that through your own writing and viewpoint is very special.

So I thank Mike for that, man, and look forward to many, many more years of him covering sports because he's a gem in the industry. I thank you for joining me again another week. Next week, I'll be off.

I'll be traveling for a wedding. So won't be able to catch it next week. Hopefully my Clippers take care of their business tonight. We go in Saturday, which is coach Ty Lou's birthday and get game seven. And then we go on to round two to continue this journey to get to a championship.

So thank you for joining me this week. Have a great weekend. Enjoyed a lot of exciting basketball, the Clippers tonight, Denver, also Detroit and New York is going to be a great game. We still got Houston and also a Golden State. Very intriguing.

The Western Conference is tough. So enjoy it this weekend. Have a lot of fun.

Talk to you soon. Actor Michael Rosenbaum, you know, some of the most talented people in the business. Let's get inside of Jack Osborne.

Fans would say Black Sabbath was a huge influence and thank God you liked it. Boy. Yeah. Elijah Wood. Peter gets on the phone. Elijah, would you like to play the role? Did you cry?

Probably screamed at the top of my lungs. You play iconic characters, black canary and black siren. Who would you choose? Probably black siren. She's like, I got this. And that's how Katie Cassidy feels. She's got this. I like that. The Inside of You podcast. Follow and listen on your favorite platform.