Forgiveness

Hey, this is Mike Zwick from If Not For God Podcast, our show.

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Share it. But most of all, thank you for listening and for choosing the Truth Podcast Network. Darrell Bock Welcome to The Masculine Journey. We are very glad to have you with us today, and we are very glad to be back in studio. It's been a couple weeks. We've been out of studio. We've done a couple best ofs. I don't know that we technically have any best ofs, but we call that... Jim Evans Moderately OKs.

Darrell Bock Yeah, it's better than reruns. No, we had a couple best ofs back to back, and now we're back in studio, and it's great to be with my band of brothers and also to be with you guys. And so thank you for listening. Jim, you want to tell us a little bit about today's topic that we're talking about? Jim Evans Today's topic is forgiveness, which apparently I came up with in a moment that went right through my elderly brain, but it is a very important topic for us, and we pretend that you've heard a Shrek, a funny Shrek film clip, because that's what we were going to do now, but that changed. Darrell Bock Yeah, well, it was about forgiveness. Shrek and Donkey forgiven one another.

Jim Evans Yeah, and we know they will because they're wonderful cartoon characters. It's a little tougher for the rest of us, but we're going to open... you want to open with the clip coming for... and I'll need forgiveness for this from some of the more, shall we say, legalistic, for lack of a better word, Christians that think the shack was a travesty, but there's plenty of good stuff in there. And this first clip is one where the main character, Mack, almost said Mackerel, that's my cat, who I call Mack, Mackenzie, is a father who has lost his daughter in a murder. And one of the things that I just caught today when I was re-watching some of that is he was probably the one that killed his father.

We saw a brief clip of him putting strychnine in his father's booze who would beat up on his mother and him when he had been drinking, but he was a good church-going dad, and when he was exposed by his son, he got quite a whipping. And this is them meeting in heaven of sorts. No, wrong clip. Oh, wrong clip, never mind. But we'll come back to that one. But this is one, well this is a good one to start with because in this one, and I don't think we have God in the other one, so in this one God actually has a male voice, but he is played by both male and female, and that bothered a lot of folks. But in this clip it is him being in the position of being told by God he needed to forgive the guy that killed his daughter.

Yep, and so we'll go ahead and listen to that. He killed my God. I want to hurt him. I want him to hurt like he hurt me.

I want you to hurt him. I know you do, but he too is my son and I want to redeem him. Redeem him? He should burn in hell. So we're back to you as the judge. So you, you just let him get away with it? Nobody gets away with anything. Everything bears consequences. But he did.

It was horrible. I'm not asking you to excuse what he did. I'm asking you to trust me, to do what's right and to know what's best.

And then what? Forgiveness doesn't establish your relationship. It's just about letting go of his throat. Mac, the pain inside is devouring you, robbing you of joy and crippling your capacity to love. You're not stuck because you can't. You're stuck because you can't. You're not stuck because you can't. You're stuck because you won't. You don't have to do this alone. I'm here with you. I don't know how.

Just say it out loud. I forgive you. Mackenzie, you're such a joy. That's a great clip, Jim. You know, there's a lot to it. Danny, you also picked this clip and so I'm going to go ahead and ask you a little bit about what about this clip really spoke to your heart.

I mean, there's a lot in there. Yeah, it's a very powerful clip. Well, when I think of forgiveness, I think about you going back through your life and obviously this man has had a traumatic experience in his life and it reminds me of a traumatic experience that I had. I didn't lose my daughter from a murder, but my first wife took her and I didn't see her for four and a half years and didn't know exactly where she was.

Couldn't lay eyes on her and that was part of reason I stayed in the throes of addiction for about eight and a half years and it literally was devouring me on the inside. And even after I got custody of my daughter, it still ate at me that the anger and hatred that I had for the woman who did this. And it's been an unpacking process over the past 26 years of learning to let go of, I love what the God character says, it's about letting go of her throat because what your flesh, whatever you want to call it, tells you is revenge will fix this. But revenge never fixes anything. But the forgiveness, the part of learning to let go and go, I forgive you, allows an internal freedom inside is what I've experienced because I've had to go and to make amends for those things that have ate me up inside. And it has actually been one of the most freeing things that I've ever experienced.

I've actually known the fact that I used to be a guy who looked at the ground a lot because I couldn't face the world with the things I thought I had done. But allowing forgiveness in my life has allowed me to look the world in the eye and go, I'm as square as I can be today with the world. Well, the enemy is good at keeping us hostage in this place where we feel like we don't want to forgive, which most times we don't want to.

It's not a matter of wanting, it's a matter of what's best for my heart and what's best for my life, that we may need to versus want to. But also, he likes to let us think that if we forgive somehow, we're letting them get off with it, right? You know, when you hear Mack talking here, he's almost implying to God, he's telling God, basically, you're going to let him get away with this. And the issue wasn't about the other guy, it was about Mack's heart, right?

And that one line that you talked about in there was very powerful. When I think of forgiveness as being letting go of the throat, it makes it a little easier to do. At least I'm not trying to kill them.

Yeah. Well, I mean, it makes it at least more achievable, right to where I can move towards that next step. And that is you asked me why I chose this topic. And what I remember most is how in society right now, I mean, we got people who want to kill each other, whether they're wearing a mask or not, or, you know, they're unforgiving of anything that goes on. And that's a big part of why I don't watch the news because I don't want to go through that and get angry myself and need to be forgiving.

But it happens both on a macro scale with society. And in the most intimate settings of our families, there are people that we are bearing grudges against, and it's doing us more damage than them. The great quote on that is, you know, it's having wanting revenge is one of the ways I've heard it most is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. Yeah. And at the end of the day, you're just holding yourself prisoner to that, that, that experience. I remember, I think one thing that's important is God will call you to forgive.

But he doesn't necessarily call you back into relationship. Right? Those are two different things. Right? You know, a lot of you guys know a lot of my story with my sister who was so cruel to me, he still called me to forgive her. Although I never spoke to her again before she died.

Right? That was not what he called me to do. He called me to forgive her. And the way that he did that is he woke me up a few times in the middle of the night telling me to pray for her. And the first night I just kind of laughed at him.

Like, really? Why would I want to pray for her? You know, I mean, I was just so angry and hurt and all that. But he kept on me until the point where I legitimately prayed for her. And the freedom that I got from that was amazing. The power that she had over me, a lot of the agreements that I had made, it laid the groundwork, that forgiveness laid the groundwork that forgiveness laid the groundwork to break agreements and to go gain ground back. Right?

But none of that can happen until the forgiveness happens. Because it's holding you hostage. It's holding you trapped in that spot. You know, I thought that's what that clip really did. Well, it kind of explained that to him. Well, I've heard it said that resentment is the cancer to the soul. Because it literally eats at you. And it does all the things that the clip says, it steals your joy, steals your happiness, and it inhibits your ability to love others.

Because you go into a walled protection. And you shut yourself down. You do.

You do as we were listening to the intro for the show. One of the things that came to my mind was the Lord's Prayer. You know, we're called to, we're asked for forgiveness as we forgive those that have trespassed against us.

That's the version I learned growing up, right? You know, it's a forgiveness-based relationship. Yes, there's the forgiveness between us and God.

And Rodney, I know you want to talk about that, and I want you to talk about it. But there's also the forgiveness of others. Yeah, and that's one of the things that today, like Jim just mentioned, how in heck can we go down a path in a relationship with anybody if we're not going to be forgiving because we all are hurting each other, in one way or another, continually. There's room to stop, pause, take a breath, think about what you're going to say, and then move in that relationship a little stronger with some forgiveness.

And you know, think about who's really behind that. As a Christian, we have a little different mindset than the secular world, and we're going to talk about that, you know, on through this show and into the after-hours. And I think we just need to always keep in mind where we're at so that we know where others are at as well.

Because I fall down all the time, and I want that forgiveness, so why wouldn't I then offer it up to someone else as well? I forgive you, Rodney. Thank you, Sam. Go to masculinejourney.org.

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Masculinejourney.org or if you want to mail something in, mail it to P.O. Box 550, Kernersville, North Carolina 27285. So I opened up that prison door. Gentlemen, who is this that was singing? It's Steve Chapman and my wife and I saw him a couple times at the Cove.

Loved he and his wife Annie who sang together and they decided that they were very popular at those conventions because people came to see Steven Curtis Chapman and it was Steven Annie Chapman. But wonderful couple of hilarious great teachers and this song and it goes on to saying you know Jesus gave him the key to that room and had him opening up and after torturing this person that offended him all those years he found the person that was in prison was himself and I mean the first time I heard that I cried because I was angry and in a position where I was the one that was suffering because I wasn't forgiving and I haven't had the huge offenses that most people in this room much less in this world have had. My life has not been full of nasty people but we all encounter them every day but I find it much easier to forgive now realizing that that's what's best for me. The question I didn't prep you guys for which is what I like to do because sometimes they just come to me but it's not really one that we got to each answer but honestly is there really ever a time that there's not somebody in your life you probably need to forgive? And starting with yourself? Starting with yourself right going to the immediate family and then circles outside of that to work you know to friends to whatever you know just keep keep expanding that circle there's always opportunity to forgive so it's not like it's something that happens once in a while in our life it's something that we need to be practicing pretty regularly. Yeah I find myself running in circles all the time. Yeah yeah that can happen. Yeah you get out there and like you say you make a circle around one area you're like okay I forgive them you know because really what I'm doing is I'm forgiving myself for what I thought of them because that's usually what the problem is it's more on my side than it is theirs but you finally you get that done you're like oh okay I can move on oh there's another one and then all of a sudden that's like we're dealing with work and we're just we've all been displaced out of our area we're sitting somewhere else part of it was because of COVID now we're all moved because we're remodeling some things and I think part of this is because of COVID because it's going to give us more separation and it's going to give us more barrier between us and all this other stuff and me and my cohort we're gonna we're getting stuck in a little cove and it's like this just doesn't work we we need more area because we wanted to do something with it and we said we made a proposal we thought we could get it we're not getting it and then I went into selfish mode and was like well if I'm not going to get that I'm just going to stay sitting in the annex area where we're at right now and I'm just not going to go back down there to heck with all this and I'm just it took Jesus a little while to work on my heart and to say this isn't that big a deal it's just where you're sitting you know this isn't that big a deal nobody's out to get you just let it go let it ride and that was just you know Monday when I was dealing with this and it was just like okay get over I can get over that thing and then of course then there's something else and then there's something else and then I sit around you guys and there's a lot of things you know but now we're there's always something else around the world there's plenty that will give you opportunity to forgive us for before the evening I'm rather certain uh Danny I want to ask you a quick question about something if you don't mind sharing the forgiveness inventory oh the inventory do you mind sharing a little bit about that one because I think it's something even though it came from the 12-step program that you're telling us about it's something it'd be a good practice for us yeah is um I got it in 12-step programs trying to rid myself of the habits of alcohol and drugs and but basically it wasn't about drinking and drugging so much it was about walking to a process of listing the people you had harmed and for those of you who would who would know about it would be the fourth and fifth step or the major they list in the people you'd harmed and write out what it is you're resentful about them for and then the process of going to them and making amends for your part of the story and ironically that's where if you like to call it that the self-forgiveness comes is because all of a sudden you're confronting things that that we're eating you it bothered you that this was part of the thing and even though they may have wronged you more than you did them you didn't get to go there you had to stay on your side of the street or as us country boys say yeah your front porch I was just pondering the front porch thing it'll come to you it'll come to you it'll come to me that I I want to take it to a 24-step program now the I think that the inventory can work both ways though right you know in in that scenario you're you're listing the things that you need forgiveness from I think there's also value in listing the things that you feel like you need to give other people forgiveness of right because those are things you can invite God into and say God help me work on this where do I find this forgiveness in this situation because some are easy to forgive the whole donkey shrek clip we were going to play they were just mad at each other building a wall in the middle of the swamp you know they're going to forgive pretty quickly but other things take years if not a lifetime to kind of find a way to forgive without God getting in the middle of it well what you find sometimes and what I have found over the years is going to someone it all of a sudden opens a door and they begin number one didn't realize that even happened but then they begin talking to you about man I wish I would have done this and opened up and it just opens up doors that were eternally locked so to speak God does amazing things one quick story I had a girl on my list that I'd done woefully wrong in my addiction and she was on my list but I didn't want to see her because I figured she at least had a 357 waiting I mean that was that so I leave a a 12-step meeting one night going home and stopped to get a Pepsi and guess who the cashier was and I thought how do I get around this and I ducked and dodged and checked out went got my car and got about 10 minutes up the road or two miles up the road and I can hear the Holy Spirit saying if you think you're riding out of here and going to sleep tonight you got another thing coming go back and so I turned around went back and it opened up a dialogue so that we were able to the forgiveness happened and you know it was a done deal I didn't have to worry about her shooting me in the back because she obviously didn't so and I think your your point it reminded me of a time with my first wife that God had was prompting me for a long time if you can't listen to the show much you know it takes me a long time to really get on board sometimes God has to work on me for a while I stubbornness I don't know what it is you know I trust him but I it's more of a I just don't feel like doing it right now God but you know he was calling me to to call her and we hadn't had much of a relationship over the other than information we had to pass back and forth about our kids right you know you're gonna pick up the girls here okay I'll meet you then I mean as little as information as you could and he was calling for me to apologize to her and I'm like well God I actually feel more wronged here I mean I had every justification he's like I want you to apologize and so one day I called her and I'm praying oh please don't answer please don't answer and she answered and I said hey I just uh been hearing from God a lot that I just need to apologize to you and we talked for a few minutes and it led into her giving a heartfelt apology to me right and that was your point right that sometimes it's you give a little and gain a lot in the midst of it just by being obedient you know in our relationship I mean we don't talk and at all really not because we can't our lives just aren't in the same circles anymore but I could call her if I needed to and we could have a conversation and then everything would be fine you know but that's all because of the cycle of forgiveness and what both of you pointed out in your stories there is how is the 99% of forgiveness of forgiveness needs to go both ways yeah it's a rare case where one person's totally innocent and the other one is totally wrong them I think we've got enough time for this 44 second clip so go ahead and tell this is the father and this is a the quick introduction that which I did earlier is father was killed by the son because he was abusing his mother and and you know and him this is the meeting there in heaven right back I'm so sorry for everything I was blind and I couldn't see him I couldn't see anyone I know I know I was scared I didn't know what to do son I forgive you you become the father I could never be and I'm so proud of you can you ever forgive me and that's the power of both people forgiving yes and the father was dead and in heaven actually mac was visiting briefly but it really is a matter of both of them it terribly wrong the other now in heaven I'm sure it's going to be much easier to be forgiving but this whole movie revolves around the forgiveness that mac needs to give in order to save his marriage keep his children from living in this place of despair and despondency they were both another part of the movie that god's saying well you have to send one of them to hell who's it going to be and and pointed out all the things the kids had done wrong and he says I can't you know take me instead which is what christ did for us yeah you actually see in in in that movie all three elements mac has to forgive god because he feels like god didn't do what god's supposed to do right and we can fall in that category you know the forgiveness of father and son you know up and down that way there's relational forgiveness and society forgiveness you know of the person that killed his he didn't know him personally but the person that killed his daughter but also some level of self-forgiveness right because he was a father on watch when the daughter went went missing right and we just barely touched on the topic we haven't got a chance to talk to herald yet so we go to go and download the after hours podcast you're going to hear herald you're going to hear more of this topic we're going to touch on a lot of different parts of it go to masculine journey.org to download that you can go to boy spotify itunes all the different locations that you can get podcasts i think we're available on pretty much all of them masculine journey after hours is what that's called it'll be called forgiveness and then go register for the boot camp because that's really where god's got some amazing stuff he wants to do with you we can't wait to see you there we know that god has special things for us and special things for you masculine journey dot org boot camp april 29th through may 2nd this is the truth network