This is the Truth Network. Coming to you from an entrenched barricade deep in the heart of central North Carolina, Masculine Journey After Hours, a time to go deeper and be more transparent on the topic covered on this week's broadcast.
So sit back and join us on this adventure. The Masculine Journey After Hours starts here now. Welcome to Mask on Journey After Hours. I don't often promote the, I don't often promote anything but the boot camp, obviously, but the YouTube feed and the Facebook feed. But I would say had we been live during this last in-between shows, you would have really understood why we do that.
Part of the language was probably not the best, but it was really real conversation about the topic we're talking about today. You know, if you're just joining in, you didn't listen to the first show, we're talking about unforgiveness or forgiving, right? And moving towards forgiveness. And so we were really just relating some stories. And so I would say if you really want to hear stuff that's not on the air, maybe you want to watch the FaceTube?
Yeah, that one. YouTube, Facebook. Yeah, yeah. Spacebook. Space food.
The Space Food feed. Yeah, just watch that. Yeah, I feel like I'm a thousand years old trying to make those. One of those society media things. Right, right, yeah.
That would be a time when you could hear. More of what we talk about in between. Except for this show, which is not going to be on. Yeah, which in retrospect might be good. But there were some elements of it that would have been very good.
Anyway, we were talking about forgiveness and why does God require us to move to a place of forgiveness? I i in every situation. At some point, God's going to take you to the place where you need to forgive. Even that. Whatever that even that is for you.
Maybe not today. And there are some things that I said I would never forgive. Right? And then God just whittled away. and whittled away, and whittled away, and was patient and was loving and persistent.
to the point where it's like okay. It's time to let this one go too. Right, and because he knows, as we talked about in Elisha, it's what keeps your heart in bondage. If Jesus came to set the captives free, You can't be free indeed as long as you're holding on to that bitterness and that unforgiveness.
Now, you probably heard the saying. I think I talked about it last time we were talking about forgiveness, but. Not forgiving somebody is like drinking poison and expecting it to affect it to kill them. Yeah, they're going to die. Yeah, but it really affects like you said it more eloquently.
I did. No, actually, I struggle with that every time. I've never eaten some poison. I do. It sounds good until you get behind the mic.
It's clear in my head. It's just clearer when it comes out. To me and Facebook, you know, the face feed, whatever. I don't know. Hopefully, y'all will forgive me for butchering that.
No, we understood your intent there, Andy. I think that makes it more memorable, actually. You could have just said it eloquently. Nobody would have remembered it. But because we got to make fun of you, it definitely will be scored into their mind.
Yeah, because you hear something really good and you go, oh, that's pretty cool. And then five minutes later, you're like, what was that? I don't even remember what that was.
Well, Terry, when we left the last show, you had something you wanted to talk about on this topic.
So I didn't want to get too far into this one without bringing it back to you.
Well, thanks a lot, gentlemen. You know, this thing is an interesting topic. And I was just thinking, listening to you guys' comments. And I thought about the last moment of being pressed against the cross in Jesus. And I don't think that journey could have been complete had he not said these words: Father, forgive them.
Okay. Like, I think we talked about how we time don't heal everything.
Well, his, I think the time he had was limited. And I think that our time, if we still model that Christ that we serve so well.
Okay, our time is limited in our actions as Christians. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think if we to grow in Christ, if we to grow in the likenesses, if we to do the real, the deal that Christ called us to do.
Okay, time can't be a matter. That's our convenience. You know, I don't think God calls us to forgive or love somebody on our time. I just don't think so. I think that's what's going to kill us, is waiting on our time.
Yeah, I think that God will um God has so many tools that He will equip you with over time. We're talking about off-air. During the break, one of the things that really helps is when God gives you a glimpse of other people's brokenness. Right, the the baggage they're carrying and how hard that is. You know, and when you can see it real clearly without judgment, but with grace.
It changes the place that you're at. And if you're struggling with what in the world is Sam talking about, you know, I mean, if. if you could see their brokenness. Um scriptural way of saying it. Treat others.
like you would like to be treated. I want to be treated In a way that takes into account my brokenness. that takes into account the the hurts that I've had, the things that I've done, maybe the respect that I'm supposed to be given or something like that, but that really doesn't ever really bother me too much. It's, hey, can you appreciate where I've come from? In that broken sort of way.
And so if I'm going to expect that of Jesus. Which he's the one that ultimately has to do it, then. It's Pretty you know, responsible of me. to not be a hypocrite, to offer that same thing to others. and to do it fairly quickly, to Terry's point.
Yeah, for me, you know, my dad was already gone. Dad died in 84 and I didn't start some of this process knowingly. You know, until in the 2000s. You know, my first boot camp was 2002, and so a number of years there, you know, and there's a lot of Things where the enemy can say that's all.
Well, under the water, under the bridge, you can't go back there. But one of the things that God gave me insight to was through one of my sisters. Um she shared with me a lot of stories one time I went to see her in Florida about my dad's life, things that I didn't know about, stories of his relationship with his dad. You know, it's kind of like the Everybody Loves Raymond clip that we play at camp. It was in real life for me that when I realized.
Wow, how bad my dad had it at times. You know, and and how well he really did with my heart. You know, it put me in a place where I could easily forgive some things because he was doing the best with what he could do. You know, and most of that was before he became a Christian. You know, he didn't come a Christ Christian until shortly before he died.
you know, a few years before he passed away, and I had already been out of the house for several years by then. But You know, I it gives you the eyes to see things that you wouldn't normally be able to see. and gives you perspectives that you wouldn't have. You know, and when God opens your eyes to that, but typically, Andy, we talked about this off the air too, it's after you've been, you've given in on something, you've been vulnerable with God. But God gives you that gift.
you know, when he when you've really kind of let down the guard and said, Okay, I trust you in this more than I trust me to protect myself. God, I trust you. you know, then he he gives you some of these tools to help forgive people. Yes. Pretty much, and I know I've said this before, but pretty much daily I am praying.
Lord. Holy Spirit. I'm giving you all the keys. I'm giving you all the keys to all the jail cells that are. in my heart somewhere.
I'm giving you All of the Opportunities to go to those broken places that I've hidden away.
now, you know, and to protect, right? And so, you know, he stands at a door and he knocks, and that door is called you. And he's not going to Kick it in. He's not going to drag anybody into heaven kicking and screaming. And he's not going to drag anybody into forgiveness kicking and screaming.
Um or healing for that matter. And so he he is a gentleman, he is kind. and he does stand at the door. forever and Knox He has forever. You may not.
Well, I thought looking around the room you're going to say he's going to drag in some of us by our hair. And then others, probably not as much. But anyway, you'd have to have a camera to see that. Jim, you wanted to say something?
Well, I wanted to ask something. Yeah. And I was going to do this in between sessions, but we ran out of time, as we often do. Has anybody ever had to forgive God? Yeah.
Yep. For things I perceived he was responsible for, yeah. 'Cause that was one of the biggest things and My life was uh at six years after my father died, At the advanced booth camp, and some of you know this story already, but. I was looking for a father wound, and I had a wonderful father and really remembered no wounds, and I went into literally a closet behind the stage. And ask God.
Well, Yeah.
sort of flippantly. What's my father wooin? and very clearly heard him say, Why are you angry with us? And I knew exactly what he meant because my father had died Three weeks before my daughter, my father died three weeks before my daughter was married. I had not seen him at Thanksgiving.
This was right before Christmas. And The bottom line after considerable weeping. I realize In the forgiveness of both of them, that I'd been holding on to that. there was such a com tremendous release. It was literally like being released from prison.
Mm-hmm. I'm going to play a clip from a TV show Parks and Wreck, and it's traditionally a comedy. Comedy show. You may not find it funny. I found it funny, but it was a comedy show.
It was known to be a comedy. But one of the things I want you to hear in this is that. You can have a heart to forgive somebody. Would it not be the right time? You know, and I think sometimes a prayer for me needs to be God, I want to get to a place of forgiveness there, but I need to do it in your time.
Don't let me drag my feet, but don't let me rush into it. 'Cause sometimes it's just In God's time, right, is when it happens. And what we're going to hear here is: you have Ron, who used to be Leslie's boss at the Parks and Recreation Department in Suwannee, Indiana. Fake town, but pretty much reflected Indiana. I can say that I grew up there.
But he had been her boss, and he had left. The Parks and Rec Department, and he had come back. Leslie was getting ready to move into a federal post somehow. in something, I don't know. And um he'd ask her if they could go to lunch and she said, Yeah, let let's go to lunch and right before that the scene that we pick up on, as soon as she says that, as the uh elevator's doors are closing, he hears her get confronted by an immediate thing she has to go handle and she's like, Yeah, I'm leaving for Washington tomorrow.
Right, and forgot all about her friend Ron. And so, where we pick this up is they're having a conversation several years later at this point, and they're kind of unpacking some of that and learning what forgiveness means. Oh, oh no. Ron, I stood you up for lunch. You did, yes.
I waited for a while, but it was pretty easy to figure out what had happened. Your life seemed pretty hectic. Is that the rest of the story, that I stood you up? You were going to ask me something. That's why you wanted to have lunch.
Ron, you were going. I was going to ask you for a job. You missed your friends. And you wanted to come up to the third floor and work with us again. Ow.
I can't even imagine how hard that must have been for you. Why didn't I see that? Ron, I am so sorry. I should have been a better friend to you. Honestly, Leslie, it's fine.
It was a punctuation mark on a sentence that had already been written. My time in government work was over, but it was time for me to leave. and I didn't feel like explaining why to you or anyone. Everything that happened after, the fight we had, not giving you a heads up when my company took on the Morningstar development and bulldozed the nurse's old house, I do regret that. I had a good run here.
But after you and Tom and Donna and April and Terry left. When I looked around this office, Nothing was the same. I think for me when I listen to that clip that We got to be open to forgiveness, but we also can't rush it. Right, because maybe our hearts aren't ready to give it quite fully yet. And so we'll give it and then take it back.
We'll give it and then take it back. and a history of me doing that. at times in in relationships, especially the closer you are to me. You know, I I have a desire to forgive, but then I have a reluctancy to forgive 'cause I'm afraid to get hurt again. And so it's got to be in God's time.
And sometimes certain things have to transpire. to have perspective. And I think that's what we've heard in a lot of the clips and we'll continue to hear. Hmm. Anyway, I uh Friendships, the the closer people are to you, the more likely they are to hurt you.
I don't know anything about that personally. Yeah. Never experienced being hurt by a friend or ever hurting a friend. Yeah, never. Actually.
and I seldom tell a lie. Most people call me honest ape. But The reality is that we have hurt each other. You and I and Robby have, all three of us have hurt each other. Yeah.
Uh and I don't mean like a lot as in like hundreds of times. But very, very deeply. And I've seen all sorts of ministries split and break up and All of those sorts of things. And somehow or another, that kept running through my mind: you know, I don't want. I don't want our friendship to end that way.
I don't want to. I don't want to see you at a movie theater and go, hey, Sam, how are you doing? What's going to be lunch sometimes? Or at church? You know, how are you doing to see me there?
Yeah. Well, I forgot you don't go to church. I do occasionally. I do go to church. I do.
Twice a year? More than that. He's more than a creaster. But. Uh the That reality.
was was very, very real. And, you know, Robby is a little more thick-skinned. um at times than the two of us, and I'm a little more thick skinned at times than the two of us, and and you're a little more thick skinned at times than the two of us, and so it's funny that we're all very much alike in some ways and drastically different in others, and Um and you know some things that Um We're done, were said, were meant, maybe, not meant, who knows. But just differences that we had and desires. And God's been talking to me a lot about that lately.
And I mean, I feel really, really good about where we are personally, where we are as a ministry, all of those different things. I really do. There are times when I still feel like I'm on probation. But there are times like that. But it's okay because, again, understanding someone else's brokenness and understanding perhaps how you've participated in it really helps to not be judgmental in those situations.
And I know that One of the things that God has been doing Um with me personally is saying, Look, You can say almost anything that needs to be said. You just have to be really, really careful about how you say it. And now I don't live by that. I, you know, that's obvious if you hang out with me very much. But I do try to think seriously: okay, is this one of those situations where I need to be really, really careful?
And You know, God has been doing some really neat things in that regard, and I'm very thankful. Um that I feel 100% forgiven, and I feel like I've forgiven, you know, all of the things that have ever, you know, been pushed my way as far as hurts go. But that doesn't mean To our, we talked about this earlier, doesn't mean that you're not going to have a little bit of. fear or hey, this kinda feels like that did. And yeah, I can pray, God, just make me forget all that and all those things.
And he chooses not to because he says, no, Darren, I want you to learn from that. I want you to trust me more than you trust Sam. I want you to trust me more than you trust Andy or Robby or Jim or Harold even. I mean, it's kind of like trusting God when you trust Harold because they're roughly the same age. But.
It It is somewhat of that sort of scenario that God is continually reminding That um Yeah, all the forgiveness might be there, but that doesn't mean that the healing is 100%. And by that, I mean not necessarily anything that you've hurt me. Or but but just that I need more healing. In a lot of ways. And that he still can use you, Robby, Sam, I mean, you know, Jim, the whole, all of these guys and more.
Um mainly my wife. Yeah. bring about that healing that Darren needs. Yeah, you use the term thick-skinned. I think thick-headed is probably more apt to say.
There's a lot of skin on you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Some showing more than others. We have one more clip we're going to go. Jim, did you want to say something? I'm sorry. Yeah, and I'm going to say it very carefully after Darren's warning.
But I it hit me how much forgiveness can affect others. The collateral damage of you guys fighting wounded me. Oh, here it comes. Here it comes. We should be ashamed of ourselves.
And I have never been happier at any reconciliation. That I can think of than you guys getting back together.
So thank you. And for whatever little wound that was, it wasn't that little. It is forgiven. The enemy is very good at ripple effects, for sure. Yeah, he is.
Yeah. Darren, I'm going to go ahead and have you get to your clip on The Last Full Measure, right? Yeah, this comes from the movie The Last Full Measure, which is actually based on a true story. The entire movie's not everything in it is perfectly true, but. Uh Go look it up.
It's really a great story about. A group of guys in reality, a band of brothers that are still struggling with. the death of somebody that Was a friend to many of them, was a savior to others of them. And Basically, the story follows one of his closest friends who they were both Air Force PJs, pair of jumpers, rescue guys, much like the guys that just rescued one of our guys in Iran, or two of our guys in Iran. And so The story is that One of these guys jumps out of a helicopter to rescue some guys that are getting overrun.
They had just called in a broken arrow, which means. We're either going to die by friendly fire or we're going to die by unfriendly fire. We've got a chance with the friendly fire, so bring it down, right? And This guy comes down, and there's like 180 guys in this company that are being massacred by the Viet Cong, and only 11 of them got out unscathed. And over 50, almost 60 of them, died that day.
This guy was one of them that went to rescue, but he rescued so many. before he died, And so that's kind of the story here. But these guys The one guy that you're going to meet. He's struggling to forgive himself for not also getting out of the helicopter, for not also dying on that field. But he's also struggling to forgive his friend.
who got out of the helicopter and who died, because his friend has Action very Full of valor. Has caused him a lot of shame.
Now, that's not the intent, and that's not what God intended at all. But Satan's been using that shame. And so you'll hear about shame, and you'll hear about grace, and you'll hear about forgiveness. You better stop it from Say it.
So what? He knew it was dangerous. I told him to come back up. Get back on the wire. Get back in the ship.
He didn't do that. Why didn't he do that? Get back in the ship. Because he couldn't, because people needed him. Yeah, yeah?
Ha ha ha ha ha. It's gotta hurt to be mad at him. Yeah. Hmm. What else happened to you, Tom?
I stayed in the bird. I didn't go down. I was relieved. I stayed, you know, where it was safe. God, when I found him.
I was Yeah. It's quite. That it wasn't me that. I didn't want to be dead and I I was alive and it Felt good. You did feel something.
Yeah, I felt ashamed! You're not a coward, Tom. You're a hero. You're Not what I want. Yeah.
I do. I want some grace. I want some serenity. I want my country to honor my brother.
So kind of the point of that clip is sometimes the forgiveness is needed. from you towards somebody else. As Jim talked about, sometimes the forgiveness is needed from you towards God, not that God has ever sinned, not that He needs forgiveness. But I need to let him off of the hook for some things that I'm blaming him for. That's what we mean.
So don't lose your mind theologically there, please.
Some people have, honestly. They some people have gotten Pretty broken up over that. That's not what we're saying. We're not saying God sinned. But sometimes that forgiveness is you.
Right? You need to be able to forgive yourself. And we struggle with that oftentimes as much as anything else. And Jim talked about accepting the forgiveness, thinking he's a reasonably forgiving person.
Well, why is it hard to? accept it.
Well I mean, this may seem obvious to everybody out there. but in order to accept forgiveness you have to actually admit that you needed it. And often we think we're pretty good people. And I'm one of those, you know, but I know I hurt people and I know I need forgiveness. But most of the time, it's me that needs to forgive me more than.
I mean, I do struggle to accept it from other people at times too. Put the one that I struggle to accept it from the most is for me and often God. Yeah, I think that's kind of the pride. It's like we want to be our own salvation. And if we're paying for our sin, I mean, not forgiving ourselves is a way of us paying for our sin instead of letting Jesus.
Lord knows. I mean, if he wants you to forgive others, he certainly wants you to forgive yourself. That would be kind of crazy if he wanted you to forgive everybody else. But I don't see an exception for ourselves in there. But it's so easy to do.
We all go there because we know us, we know what goes on. And we always, I think sometimes we play in our motives, and they may not be correct. But we are broken people and we're going to have bad motives sometimes. Yeah, we're the only one that hears all ours.
Well, Harold, you had something else. We got about a minute. I want you to take us home. You said you had something else you want to share a little bit about on this. No, I put you on the spot.
I'm sorry, Harold. You got a minute. Yeah, it's uh I kind of identify with some of those feelings. I thought I was going to be a fighter pilot in the Navy. and my wife changed my mind.
And I have to admit that I felt guilty about the fact that I was in the Air National Guard and back home and The poor black kid out of the ghetto. He didn't have a choice. He was thrown over to Nam and shot at. And I have to admit, I felt guilty about that for the longest kind of time. When uh when They would ask, you know, the service people to stand.
I wouldn't stand.
Well, Harold, I'm glad you got freedom from that. We have to go. Bye.
