Should We Care About the Red Heifer, and Answers to All Your Questions

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network.

So, should we care about the red heifer in Israel? And, phone lines are open for all your questions. It's time for The Line of Fire, with your host, biblical scholar and cultural commentator, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity. Call 866-34-TRUTH to get on The Line of Fire. And now, here's your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks for joining us, friends.

My joy to be with you. Phone lines are open. 866-348-7884. Any question of any kind that ties in in any way to anything I've ever talked about, anything we've ever talked about on the air, anything I've written about, it is fair game. 866-348-7884.

If it intersects with interests we have or expertise we have, my joy to speak with you. Before I go to the thorns, I want to address briefly the question of the red heifer. Numbers 19 lays out these rights in Israel, these cleansing rights in Israel. In ancient Israel, they would take a red heifer without defect, in which there is no blemish, in which a yoke has never come. This animal was then brought to the priest, who was then to slaughter it outside the camp, and then its ashes were mixed with water, and this water became the water for cleansing. So, there has been talk for years now, if there is to be a third temple built in Israel, then there will need to be these red heifers and cattle raisers, farmers, different parts of the world, you know, Christian Zionists or Orthodox Jews, they'll be looking, okay, it's got to be a red heifer, it's got to be without blemish, as it grows it has to be without blemish, oh, there's a problem here.

If you mark it a certain way, now it's blemished, so what do you do? And, you know, a lot of talk about this, and now this red heifer has been found, and without blemish, and sent to Israel, and she would be focusing on this. A colleague sent me an article from Glenn Beck when he was talking about this phenomenon of what it means today. I personally am not focused on it at all. I don't think about it. There could be an announcement every single day that a red heifer has been found.

In other words, if there is to be a third temple, and there are to be cleansing rites for traditional Jews, they would go back to these laws that were laid out, and the rabbinic interpretations of these laws, and therefore, in order to have purification rites, then you would need to have the red heifer. So, they'd just say, wow, here's one without blemish, it's ready to go. I pay no attention to it. I don't think twice about it whatsoever. If there was news every single day about another one being found, or there is none, it does not enter into my thinking at all. Why? Well, one reason is the Bible never tells me to watch for a red heifer or for signs of a rebuilding of a temple.

It tells me to look for a lot of other things, but not that. That's one. Number two, there's no possible way for a third temple to be built right now. A lot of cataclysmic things would have to happen, and we're not at that point yet. So, if we were getting closer to that point, and a third temple was going to be built, and how that would be, because it's the current location of the Dome of the Rock in Israel, Jerusalem, and I don't believe it should be built in the location. Others have argued the ancient temple was somewhere else. That's not my understanding.

I haven't devoted years of study to it, but it's not my understanding. It is my understanding that the temple is where the Dome of the Rock, that's amongst that area now in Jerusalem, and therefore, one of those would have to be removed for the temple to be rebuilt. How in the world would that happen? Joel Richardson speculated there could be an Islamic Antichrist who broke his deal with Israel, and that's part of the deal that's brokered, and that's why Israel follows him as some messianic figure. It's speculation that's as good as any, but we're nowhere near that happening now.

If we get to that point of happening, then they'll find the red heifer too. That's not going to be a problem. So, I don't focus on it, think about it at all. Alright, 866-34-TRUTH, let us go over to Mitchell in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Welcome to the line of fire. Well, thank you so much, Michael.

I am so glad to be on, and thank you for taking my call. I just became familiar with you and your ministry and your decades of work over the last year, as I made the difficult decision to come out of the charismatic movement. I was in the, let me clarify, I was in the kind of the word of faith, the word of faith and New Apostolic Reformation, I guess you would say, aspect of the charismatic movement, so I understand you are not word of faith. I'm pretty sure that's what I've learned, that you're not word of faith, so I think that's wonderful. But I came out of all of that because I was just increasingly concerned about the level of, you know, prophetic manipulation, deception, revelations.

Now let me clarify, I love the people. I still, you know, hold them near and dear into my heart, but we were all kind of drinking the same Kool-Aid, and I just got to where I was really concerned about that. It was impossible to verify what was truly of God and what was not, and it started to have kind of an occultic feel to it, which is something I'm familiar with because my parents were God-involved in spiritualism when I was a small child, and they opened into our family, they brought a medium into our family, and sadly one of my parents never got out of that to his deathbed, and it was very, he really believed it was of God, too. So I've seen deception up close and personal, and it destroyed my family, and I've seen specifically kind of a prophetic manipulation, if you will, of deception up close. I've seen that outside of the Christian context, and so it just was a gradual process being in the charismatic, again, word of faith, part of the charismatic movement, where I really felt like there was, and not like the bickle stuff with the sexual immorality aspect of that, but kind of a prophetic manipulation, more occultic than Christian, but I can't say that for sure, you know what I mean? So how could I be of help to you today? Yes, Sarah, I just wanted to bring that up, to get your thoughts on that, because we recognize the Scriptures warn us about the end-times deception, over and over and over and over and over, and I have come out of that, so any thoughts?

Yeah, let me respond then. Really, Scripture warns us about deception in every age. In other words, it's the same stuff we have to deal with in the days of Moses and the days of Jesus and today, that there's always deception, there are always counterfeit spirits, there's always lying, and we always have to strive for the truth and to be on guard against deception.

That remains the same. I tried to deny my charismatic Pentecostal roots in the late 70s, early 80s for a number of reasons, but I couldn't because the Word was too clear. When I tried to not be Pentecostal or charismatic, not believe in the gifts for today, not believe in speaking in tongues for the prophecy, the healing for today in a normative way, I couldn't. The Word was too clear. I was trying to get away from it and I couldn't. The Word was too clear. And not only that, I could not deny the reality of God doing what he was doing in the earth today. So, I would encourage you not to be reactionary, in other words, not to go from one extreme to another, because I believe cessationism is a serious deception as well.

Me too, I agree. Right, right, so that you don't want to swing in a reactionary way. You want to walk away from that which wasn't healthy. Look, there are wonderful aspects of Word of faith to say, confess the Word of God and believe in the goodness of God, and there are the things that are really destructive, and you're creating realities with your words, and you can confess that you're healed even when you're dying, and you still die, and the sign of your spirituality is being financially prosperous, and dangerous junk like that, etc. But what I'd encourage you to do is really step back, spend quality time with God in the Word, really sort out what you believe and don't believe, and then try to find fellowship with other believers that are of like heart and like mind.

And Tulsa, there's a ton of places I think that you can look at. It's not like there are no churches there. But that's the key thing I'd encourage you to do, is not be reactionary. And we swing from one way, now you become skeptical, cynical, so Charismatics, Pentecostals, we can be gullible, we can believe all kinds of nonsense, we can over-exalt people as powerful men and women of God and stuff, and lose our own walk with God, and then we swing the other way where we become cynical, we become skeptical, we don't see the moving of the Spirit powerfully in our own lives, so that's what I'd encourage you not to do. Have you read my book, Authentic Fire?

Actually, I was just, it's funny to mention that, I was just trying to get an audiobook of it, but that's not an audiobook, so I have to get the paper copy, but yeah, I was going to get that, and I ordered a couple of your other books, and I've been listening to your podcast for quite a bit, which have been so helpful, and so... Yeah, I'm glad to hear that, and look, you're more sensitive to the deception issues, like you said, because of the way you were raised, and you might spot either a fraud, or a counterfeit, or a dangerous practice more quickly than someone else. On the other hand, like I said, you don't want to be reactionary, and Authentic Fire I think is helpful, because I interact with Pastor John MacArthur in a Strange Fire book, I agree with abuses and errors, but then I talk about what is true, and I really lay out the scriptural foundations for those things, and then practical life things. This last thing, make sure you continue to cultivate intimacy with God in your own life. In other words, don't let your bad church experience reflect in such a way that you draw back from the Lord anyway. I know you wouldn't consciously do that, but sometimes we do, because, you know, what's real, what isn't real, and we step back, so never lose that intimacy with the Lord, and experiencing his goodness and his love, and hearing his voice in your own life, and then, let's just pray and believe that God can plant you with other believers, whether it's a house church, small church, or mega church, whatever, where the Word is taught in a healthy way, the Spirit moves in a healthy way, and you can feel safe, that you don't have to be on your guard every Sunday, like what bad things coming down the pike, but thank you so much for reaching out, and in the months ahead, if we can be of help, you let us know, okay? Yes, sir, will do. Thank you so much again for your ministry, I really appreciate it. Thank you, and thank you for calling and sharing your own story with us, I appreciate it. 866-34-TRUTH. Friends, on either side, don't be reactionary. Maybe you were in a cessationist church that was really judgmental, and attacked others, and was kind of loveless and self-righteous, and denying the Spirit's power, and now you've been touched by the reality of the Spirit.

Don't forget the Word, and don't forget character still counts, right? That we don't go from one extreme to the other. Hey, just a reminder, if you're not getting our Frontline newsletter, we really pour into it every month, a key inspirational article, Hebrew Word every month, great testimonies, book excerpts, it comes your way once a month, and it'll really bless you. If you're not getting it, it takes just 30 seconds or less, go to thelineoffire.org. Thelineoffire.org.

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Call 1-800-771-5584, 1-800-771-5584, or online at trivita.com. This is how we rise up. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks so much for joining us on the Line of Fire. 866-34-TRUTH is the number to call. It's 866-348-7884. All right, with that, we go to the phones in Alexandria, Louisiana.

Matt, welcome to the Line of Fire. Thank you, sir. It's an honor to talk to you. Thank you for everything you do.

My joy. My question for you is I've seen a couple places, in fact, some big-name schools that are claiming out of 2 Thessalonians 2 verse 3 that that word there, apostasia, is referring to the rapture. And I heard you say that that's already been debunked. But I was wondering if you could tell me, is there something that you've written, is there some writings, any kind of references that I could get to show and to prove that it has debunked? I mean, when I do my own research, I can't find where that would be true. But anyway, I was wondering if there's any kind of reference. Yeah, yeah, so first thing is, every single Greek dictionary that you'll find, in other words, if you dig and you're looking at Greek dictionaries of the New Testament, Greek dictionaries of classical Latin, et cetera, of classical Greek, every single dictionary will have the meaning of apostasy, defection, falling away, rebellion.

Every single one of them without exception. And if you see an old English translation that talks about the departure, it doesn't mean the departure like leaving the earth, it means the departure from the faith, the falling away. So you'll find that universally, that's number one. Number two, I got into this in some depth, and if you'll go to our YouTube channel, The Line of Fire, go over there, I'm just trying to get my mouse to scroll here properly for some reason, here we go. So if you go to our YouTube channel, and then while you're there, there's a debate that I did on pre-trib rapture with a brother from England, I think you'll find it to be in a really good spirit about it.

So let's just see, looking for the actual debate title on our site, okay, no it's not there, I'll find it for you, we'll post it shortly. But anyway, on our website when I debated pre-trib rapture with, what was his name, Derek, I'm so sorry I forgot his last name. I got into it in some depth there, in other words I went through reference after reference because he tried to make that claim in his book about pre-trib rapture, so I went through every possible claim and found, no, no, no. And again, the first thing you do is, if you go to a website like Bible Hub or Blue Note Bible, one of these, where they give you a different, yeah, so you look up every Greek dictionary you can find that they reference, right, because many of them are free online there. And you just look at one after another, after another, after another, after another, and they'll all define it the same way.

And it's not like a conspiracy, it's just what the word means, right? Then if you go to say, Bible Gateway, right, BibleGateway.com, and I'm laying this out like this so that everybody can do it, so then you type in 2 Thessalonians 2, 3, chapter 2, verse 3, that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, that's the King James, then you scroll down and it says 2 Thessalonians 2, 3, and all English translations, this is going to be every one on their site, and there are several dozen there, okay? And you'll check site after site after site after site, and not a single one, translation after translation after translation, and no one will translate it in such a way that it's some kind of rapture, or some catching away. Many will say the rebellion, right, apostasy, so when you have scores and scores and scores and scores and scores of translations in every dictionary, that's it, that's enough. And it also tells you the man of sin has to be revealed, and that's the very language Paul used in 1 Thessalonians 4 about being gathered to him, that we won't be gathered to him until those things happen. So there's no solid argument for it.

Like I said, if you find an English translation from 500 years ago, 400 years ago, that says the departure, it doesn't mean, like I said, leaving the earth, it means departure from the faith, and that's how it's consistently used in those translations. Was it Derek Walker? Was that his name? Anyway, that debate, I get into it as well, so hopefully that's all the ammunition you need, okay? Sure, thank you.

You are very welcome. 866-348-7884. Let's go over to Gavin in Cleveland, Ohio. Welcome to the Line of Fire. Hey Michael, how you been? I've been great, thanks. How about you?

Pretty good. Alright, thanks. So I was reading Volume 4 about the different genealogies of Jesus, and I guess I kind of side with you that he comes from Nathan, according to the Flash, I guess. How does that work with Messianic prophecies like 2 Samuel 7.14 that seem to say it's going to be through Solomon?

Yeah, so for those wondering what Volume 4 means, that means Volume 4 of my five-volume series, Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus. So, I do have a whole section about did the Messianic prophecies have to go through Solomon in the same volume? Because that is a claim in certain Jewish circles, that the Messiah's line has to be traced through Solomon.

When you go to Maimonides and his Mishneh Torah, and he's laying out Messianic requirements, he does not have that written as a law there. But, the simple answer is that 2 Samuel 7 does not guarantee the blessings will come through Solomon, but that is the offer. In other words, the Messiah will be the son of Solomon, not the son of David. He will sit on Solomon's throne, not David's throne. However, 1 Kings 11 and parallels in 2 Chronicles make clear that Solomon blew it. That Solomon forfeited his calling and his right, which is why we talk about the house of David and the throne of David and the son of David, instead of the house of Solomon and the throne of Solomon and the son of Solomon.

So, he was offered that. The lasting dynasty was promised to David. It was then going to be transferred to Solomon. Solomon blew it and was disqualified, and therefore the lasting dynasty, as long as it's traced through David. And that's why the Messiah is called the son of David. In Hebrew, he's just Ben David. When you say Ben David, that means the Messiah, the son of David, because it had to come through him, not through Solomon.

So, he was given that opportunity and he forfeited it because of his sin. Gotcha. Got it. All right, great.

Thanks. Go ahead. No, no, that's fine.

Yeah, so just to say this, again, if you look also in Volume 4, if you search for Solomon, look in the index, you'll see that we deal with that as well. All right, thank you for the call. 866-348-7884. We have one line open and we are going to get... Oh, all right, one of our old buddies calling here, too.

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We go to Mobile, Alabama. Oliver, welcome to The Line of Fire. Are you there? What were you? I'm good. Go ahead. Good, good, great.

Yeah. So I know that you in the past have debated Don Preston on eschatology and I think Romans 9 through 11, if my memory serves me correctly. But this past Wednesday, Don debated Chris Date on YouTube, and I was wondering if you got a chance to watch that debate and to get your thoughts on it. Nope, didn't know they debated it and don't know what the subject was. Oh, okay, okay.

Good deal. What are your thoughts? I know you reject. So what was the subject matter? It was dealing with the resurrection.

So 1 Corinthians 15 and of course Don. Right, if Don Preston denies, I did not realize how radical his preterism was before we debated it. I had not studied his writings carefully. I knew the subject we were debating. I knew the position I was taking. As we got further into it, I think the second debate, that's when I realized the extent of it.

I guess probably my friend James White had warned me or some others had warned me. So a full preterism is really dangerously wrong. A full preterism which says that we are now in the new heavens and the new earth. That there is no future second coming of Jesus and that we have already been spiritually resurrected and there is no physical resurrection. Even though it does hold to the Orthodox gospel, it is heretical in denying the future coming and the future resurrection. Partial preterism I take very strong difference with but that is not crossing the line to heretical. So if he denies a future physical resurrection, that's a heretical position. Right, yeah and of course when looking at 1 Corinthians 15 he went to Hosea 3 and Hosea 13 trying to substantiate the corporate body resurrection alluding to Hosea 26 and so forth. It was back and forth and I just was curious if you watched it and wanted to get your feedback.

Yeah I'm honestly not, there's so much going on and so many things sent to us to watch, it's very rare that I actually get to sit down and watch a full debate. So I don't know how Chris did on it or how Dr. Preston did on it but I can say categorically that if you deny a future physical resurrection of the dead that is a heretical position. And that scripture is emphatic about a future physical resurrection in both the Old Testament and then more fully in the New Testament. And that is something that's been held to foundationally by the church and to deny that is absolutely a heretical position.

Right, right. Well I appreciate you sharing and God bless you and your ministry and maybe in the future it would be great to see you and Don back on the stage debating, discussing these things again. We debated twice, I think he's written like 40 something books all on preterism so this is his focus, his subject and we debated twice, I don't know that there's more to say or more purpose to it.

Obviously he holds to his position very deeply but we'd have to go in and recognize okay this is a fundamental issue now of what I would consider heresy as opposed to your two brothers having a difference which is how I had approached it up until that point, not fully recognizing where he went on it. Hey thank you so much, I appreciate it, God bless. God bless you, thank you. Alright, 866-34-TRUTH.

Let's go to, oh let's see, let's go over to Kaylee in Gainesville, Georgia. Welcome to the Line of Fire. Hi Dr. Brown, how are you?

Doing very well, thank you. Okay, so here is my dilemma and I keep either getting ignored or given answers based on cultural opinions today. And I guess the cultural opinions have me concerned and people saying that, you know, I'll go to hell. But I've been dating someone, and we just found out that we are second cousins and I've been taking it to the Lord and asking him and the confirmation that I've been getting is that, you know, he clearly, God clearly demanded or commanded the daughters of the Loafahad in Numbers 36 to marry their cousins within the tribe on their father's side. But then I have the cultural, and then I also found out, you know, in the genealogy of Luke and Matthew, Jesus' parents, Mary and Joseph, according to the genealogies, they were cousins as well. But then I have people saying that, and then the cousin's marriage is not mentioned in Leviticus 18, and then Numbers 36 was written well after Leviticus 18. So I'm just wondering, why do people say it's an abomination or look down upon it? Do you think somebody would go to hell for marrying their cousin, I guess, is what I'm asking?

Right, so a few things. No, I don't believe you can say that Joseph and Mary were cousins. I do not believe the genealogies support that as well. And with the daughters of the Loafahad in the book of Numbers, they're family members. When the Bible can speak of brothers and sisters, it can mean more distant relatives, just like it can talk about sons, meaning grandsons, great grandsons, future generations. So it's not mandating marrying a first cousin, you just have to stay within the same tribe. So you had many, many options to marry within the same tribe where you weren't marrying cousins.

You know, the tribe said thousands and thousands of people, and you just had to marry within the tribe. So the two questions to me would be, number one, what does Leviticus 18 say? So it doesn't explicitly say that. Then number two, what are the laws of your state? And that's what matters. So according to the laws of your state and scripture.

So if it's second cousin, the question is does scripture address that directly? The answer would be no. Then what are the laws of your state? That's the second question. If the laws of your state forbid it, then it's forbidden.

Simple. And you have to honor those laws of the state. Do you go to hell for violating a law of the state? No, you could go to jail for it.

And the things that hang over you, you go to hell for rejecting the lordship of Jesus and refusing his grace and saying I'm going to do what I want to do and I don't want you in my life, I don't want you as my Lord. So what are the laws of your state when it comes to this? The state of Georgia, it's perfectly legal for both first and second cousins to marry. Right. So where is there, I'm not that familiar with the idea of a scandal of marrying a second cousin.

Is that widespread? In other words, it's not a question that's come up that I've thought about over the years. You know, first cousin would be one that would come up potentially more and maybe there are more potential genetic issues with that, you know, because of familial likeness and issues that can arise. But what are you being told in terms of it's sin to marry a second cousin based on what?

Well, religious people have told me that I'm in sin because it's clearly mentioned in Leviticus and I'm like, no it's not. And they say, well yes it is, it says near of kin, you're next of kin. And I'm like, but if he went out his way to mention stepmothers or step-parents and step-kids, then he would have went out his way to mention cousins if he meant to be there.

The second cousin is definitely not mentioned there. And again, not a question I've looked at, but just according to what I just looked up in a split second here, in the United States second cousins are legally allowed to marry in every state. I wouldn't worry about that if it's legal in every state and scripture explicitly doesn't address it. The Bible does not forbid marrying second cousins.

You may have issues with other people, you know, relations and things like that, but there's nothing in scripture that says that you are living in defiance against God if you obey the laws of the land, and the bigger thing is if you're both committed to the Lord, that's the bigger thing. So that's the most directly I can answer it, okay? Okay, thank you so much.

You are very welcome. 866-348-7884, hey, do me a favor, do me a favor. If you disagree with what I just said, if you believe there is a scriptural prohibition against marrying a second cousin, that being the case, I'd be fairly sure there'd be a legal prohibition in America based on our history. But if you're sure that there is a scriptural prohibition against marrying a second cousin, and I just misled a caller, please call and tell me why. I mean that. Please call and tell me why.

866-344-TRUTH. All right, our buddy Eddie in Connecticut, how you doing, man? Dr. Brown, have a great day here, but this topic, Dr. Brown, and I know it's big with you, but we had another good fight this week talking about tongues. And I said, listen, guys, doesn't it say tongues is a sign for unbelievers, but if an unbeliever hears it, they'll think you're nuts. So I said, I don't even know what to make of that. And then I said, if I was unsaved and heard a guy speaking in tongues, I wouldn't even look at him. I'd probably say, what are you doing? Who are you talking to? I don't even know what you're saying. So are you speaking another language? I'm not going to repent and give my life to Christ because you're making noises.

I was not assigned. Yeah, so Eddie, for those that don't know our friend Eddie, he's talking about the Bible study that he's been in for many years. And one of our favorite callers, because they're always having these discussions. So Eddie, your question is one that everyone reading 1 Corinthians 14 has. Because on the one hand, he says, if you all speak in tongues, and an unbeliever or someone uneducated comes in, they'll think you're crazy. If you're all prophesied, the secrets of the heart will be laid bare, they'll fall on their faces saying God's truly among you. And yet, he then says, so tongues are a sign for unbelievers, prophecy for believers.

What? I take it to mean that tongues are a sign to an unbeliever that they're on the outside. It's a negative sign. It's not positive.

It's a negative sign. It's just like you said, like what is this? What is the kind of nonsense? Especially if you go into the Bible study and five different people are all speaking in tongues at the same time. Or it's time for prayer and this one speaks in tongues and that one speaks in tongues. What is this?

What is that? It's a sign to the unbeliever that they are an unbeliever on the outside and therefore it's a wrong practice. It drives them away. It's a sign to the believer. Now it draws them in, in faith.

That's how I reconcile that. But for sure we know practically, however we understand those verses, practically speaking, what we know is this. That unless there's interpretation for tongues, that if you deliver a message in tongues, in a group, if there's no interpretation, then keep it quiet. And pray in tongues on your own. Worship in tongues, sing in tongues, praise in tongues, give thanks in tongues, post that I speak in tongues within all of you and tells the Corinthians, don't forbid speaking in tongues.

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Here again, it's Dr. Michael Brown. Friends, for joining us on the Line of Fire, you know we write multiple articles every single week dealing with cutting edge cultural, spiritual, political, theological issues. And we put out numerous videos every single week dealing with these key issues. If you're not getting these every week, we're here to equip you. We'll wrestle through the rough issues and give you great resources.

What's happening in Israel today, Purim over this weekend, by the way. So go to TheLineOfFire.org. Sign up today, you'll hear from us every week and then once a month, our Frontline newsletter. We'll also put you on our welcome tour, share more about my background from LSD to PhD. So that's TheLineOfFire.org. Alright, let's go to John in Lake Stevens, Washington. Welcome to The Line of Fire.

Hey Dr. Brown, can you hear me okay? Sure thing. Okay, so I just had a question on 1 Corinthians chapter 12 verses 1 through 3 there. I think I know what it's saying there, but for some reason I just, just something in me saying that my exegesis is missing something that I'm just not going deep enough and I'm just been praying over it.

I was supposed to teach on it at a Bible study tonight and yeah, just curious your thoughts on the fullness of what is trying to be communicated there. Yeah, so Corinthians, Paul commends them in the first chapter as not falling behind in any spiritual gift. So even though they were a mess in other ways, doctrinally, morally, etc. and with a lot of division and looking to people, the gifts were moving powerfully in their midst.

They just needed correction as to how. So that's the chapter he starts off saying, hey, I don't want you to be ignorant of these things because in the past you were led astray following these mute idols. There were these powers that you followed or spirits that you followed, but you were led astray so I want you to understand this properly. And then he says, I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says Jesus is accursed and no one can say Jesus is Lord except in the Holy Spirit. That's the verse that people find a little odd, like who would think that the Spirit would say Jesus is accursed or was that something that they preached from the cross and there was misunderstanding? And don't plenty of people say Lord, Lord, even when Jesus is not their Lord and he rebukes them for it? So I understand Paul is speaking in very clear contrast to make a point that the Spirit is exalting Jesus.

When the Spirit speaks in Acts, it's in harmony with the truth of the word and to the exaltation of Jesus, like Revelation 19 says that the Spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus. So someone claiming to be moved on by a spirit is not going to say Jesus is accursed. And in the same way, it's not saying you can't say the words Jesus is Lord, but no one can truly profess him as Lord and say that he is Lord without the Holy Spirit. So anyone can say the words, as Jesus says, many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, right?

Many people say Jesus is, people in dead religious traditions say Jesus is Lord and they don't know him at all. But I understand that to truly say it and to truly say it and mean it, you can only do that by the Holy Spirit. And someone who is proclaiming Jesus is Lord prophetically is doing that by the Spirit.

Okay. Yeah, because I think it's obvious to everyone reading it that it's like, okay, yes, so a false person could say Jesus is Lord. I think of that guy that you denounced, Nick Fuentes, you know, saying Christ is King, Jesus is Lord, but it doesn't appear to be from the Spirit of God.

But okay. And then do you believe there's a connection between the idols being mute, mute idols, that description there, and then talking about speaking in verse three. So mute idols and then speaking by the Spirit. Is that an intentional connection there? I believe so, because otherwise he just speaks about idols and false gods and lords like in 1 Corinthians 8 and 1 Corinthians 10.

So yeah, in other words, you had these demonic powers because the idol is not a god and the idol can't speak, but this is the living God who speaks and he speaks by his Spirit and therefore we need to understand it. So I think that contrast has weight to it. Okay, very good. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. Yeah, I'm so glad we got to talk before your Bible study. Have a great time. Yes, sir. Bye-bye. Alright, God bless. 866-34-TRUTH.

We go over to Fort Pierce, Florida. Welcome to the line of fire. Steve, thank you for calling. Hey Michael, good afternoon. This is Steve Camp.

Steve Camp, are you serious? We have not talked in a long time, sir. I know. Well, I'm so glad I got through. I've been enjoying your broadcast and I really enjoyed some of the debates you've been in recently. And when we've debated a bit in the past on some issues, I felt like maybe that I wasn't as Christ-like or gracious as I should have been with you and I wanted to call and offer a public apology for any attitudes that I've expressed that weren't edifying to you. We can disagree on some biblical issues, but they should be done with a sense of graciousness and Christ-centered love and respect and because those attitudes were expressed publicly, I felt like I needed to make it right with you publicly.

Well, thank you for being so honorable, Steve. Of course, from the heart, I accept the apology. I never held anything against you. I do remember we had some conflicts that were a little unpleasant, so that means a lot that that's your heart and I forgive you from the heart.

And I know things were a little testy between us. Where I fell short, I'm only saying where because I don't remember specifically, but where I fell short was in the flesh towards you in any way and didn't rightly honor the Lord. Please forgive me. I imagine in the midst of it that I may have fallen short as well, so I'm not trying to be nebulous, I just don't remember details, but wherever I did something that struck you as less than Christ-like, please forgive me.

Oh, it's all forgiven. What prompted this to, Michael, in a way, was the roundtable I saw recently. I know it was done about a year ago, but on the cessation issue, and I've been stunned at how some of my cessationist brothers have treated those that are continuationists. And I felt like almost, even especially in the film, on cessationism, that they failed to make a biblical case for it. And I was surprised that the issue has come to certain gifts for today rather than what does the Scriptures teach on the nature of the gift and how they are to be used biblically so you can know that clearly. We know that when the perfect comes, which I believe in 1 Corinthians 13 speaks of the second coming of Christ, that there's an expiration date on all gifts, especially tongues and prophecy and knowledge. But I've just been incredibly burdened for some to think that they can label some as non-believers or believers or declare them as non-Christians because they would disagree on these issues when we both know there's only one that can separate the tares from the wheat and the sheep from the goats.

And that's none of us, that's only the Lord. So, that's what kind of prompted this as well. Well, I really appreciate it. I think that will be meaningful to our listeners and viewers as well. Let me say this, Steve. I've been thinking about this a lot because when people call me names or misrepresent me, it doesn't bother me personally.

We're big boys, right? We're in the public eye. We seek to honor the Lord. What hurts me is I want to minister to people, right? Let's say it's Jewish objections to Jesus.

I've got great material or culture war stuff or can you be gay and Christian or helps to holiness. I've got these resources that will really be a blessing, thousands of hours of free resources and other things, but now people hear a certain thing about me or about Steve Camp or about this one. And now we can't minister to them. Now they don't appreciate the song you sang because, well, I'm not going to listen to him anymore.

And that's what grieves me. What I was thinking when people, they just want me to condemn this one, condemn that one. I'm thinking, wow, you have a really, the caricatured view you have of this person, what you've heard about them or the little excerpts is so out of context and crazy. And you're thinking, well, how can I not just condemn this? Everybody wants me to condemn somebody else. This one wants me to call out, this one wants me to condemn, I'm not going to name names.

This charismatic leader, this one, this cessationist leader. Tell you what, let's look at the issues. Let's really look at the issues. Let's do our best to warn about error. And then let's recognize on our best day we need the grace of God. And the most doctrinally sound among us, we have blind spots and we need one another, so let's major on the majors and then learn from each other.

And that's what I'm convinced of. I can learn from cessationist leaders, I can learn from people in different perspectives. If they're in Jesus and they love the Lord, there's something we can learn from each other. And let's strive for the truth with all our might, let's not cover it up, let's not play games with it, but let's not kill each other in the process. We've got to do better. Well, you know, I thought your comments regarding Martin Luther were so spot on because there are issues with him, even on still adopting many aspects that we would consider, both of us, not biblical in relation to some of the things he failed to abandon in Romanism, for example. Let alone his anti-Semitic views. So, we seem to give a pass and you're spot on, brother, when you're talking about different weights and measures.

I think it's something that the evangelical community needs to wrestle with, so it's one standard for all. But, Michael, thank you for letting me come on today for just a few minutes. Be praying for you, brother. Thank you, and one of these days we've got to meet face to face, okay? I would love to. Be great. God bless you. Thank you.