Andy Stanley, Homosexuality, and Jesus

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network.

So where exactly does Pastor Andy Stanley stand when it comes to the question of homosexual practice and the Bible? It's time for the Line of Fire with your host, biblical scholar and cultural commentator, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity.

Call 866-34-TRUTH to get on the line of fire. And now, here's your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Friends, we're going to address a really important subject today, and I want to do it not as a heresy hunter, not as the corrector in chief, not as the Christian version of a gossip columnist, but as an elder, a father in the body, as one who cares deeply about the well-being of the body and the glory of God and the good of sinners in the world here in the gospel. I want to address a very, very important subject that is all over the Christian news today, namely Pastor Andy Stanley, homosexual practice and the Bible. I may take some calls today, but only on topic.

We've got a lot of ground to cover, clips to play through. And I want to go through an eight year history of interaction with Pastor Andy, most recently as of this morning. So everything that's happening now, he knows in advance will be happening. So I've invited him to come on the air today or another day this week if he wanted to, and I sent him everything I'm going to say to say, hey, do you think anything is unfair or inaccurate?

So this is all open for the good of the body. So Pastor Andy Stanley is one of the most influential pastors in America and by extension in the world, not just with one of the largest churches in the nation, maybe about 40,000 members in the different satellite campuses. But more importantly, many pastors and leaders look to him as a model, look to him as an example. Many will take his sermons and then break them down for their own congregations. Then, of course, he's a best selling author, et cetera.

So he's very influential. And because of that, when he had a conference Friday, Saturday of this past week, unconditional in it was in particular for parents whose kids identify as some of the LGBTQ spectrum of those who are interested in ministering to kids in that way. That was what the conference was for. And two of the speakers, men who had professed to be, quote, gay Christians and, quote, married to their same sex spouses, another evangelical Christian leader who shifted his views a few years ago and said, yes, you can be in a committed same sex relationship and follow Jesus at the same time. So these were some of the speakers at the conference. I knew this was happening months back. I was simply waiting for everything to explode before I addressed it publicly.

And then Pastor Andy brought a message Sunday morning just for his people. Then his plan was to release it on his YouTube channel later this week. It's got that audio already. So we're going to play some clips. And I told them, hey, I just read your quotes if you don't want the clip to be played, but he didn't tell me not to.

So you'll hear some actual audio clips as well. All right. Let me go back in history. A 2015 I published my first article interacting with Pastor Andy's views. It was entitled Andy Stanley on homosexuality. He's really right and really wrong.

This is the first article that I published and many different sites went up. Andy Stanley on homosexuality is really right and really wrong. You say, Dr. Brown, did you reach out to Pastor Andy first? No, I didn't for two reasons. One, these were public comments that he made and comments over a period of time that he made that were controversial and concerning.

That's number one. Number two, just in general, if someone makes public comments, it's certainly right and ethical to respond publicly. But number three, honestly, even though I have a platform, I have an audience, etc., I thought I've got no access to I don't know him. I don't know anyone that's close to him or that would reach out to him for me. We're kind of in different circles.

So why bother? Now, that was my mistake because he's incredibly accessible, incredibly accessible. So I commend him for being so accessible. Look, even to email me back after what must have been a crazy busy day from yesterday and all kinds of Christian media, he got right back to me.

So I respect that and appreciate it. So I posted my article and then I copied him on Twitter and he immediately got back to me on Twitter like, hey, man, you should have reached out to me. But he was just playing with me. He was just having fun and say fun to say, hey, I'm accessible, let's talk. So I reached out to him and I said, OK, here are my questions.

Here are my issues. Et cetera. And he said, oh, well, things were taken out of context and quotes were put together that were different from different times to give a certain false impression. So anyway, here's the reality, et cetera. So that led to Article number two. Now, this is 2015, both of these articles. And it's entitled Questions and Corrections. My dialogue with Pastor Andy Stanley about homosexuality.

All right. So, again, this goes back to 2015, eight years ago. Questions and corrections. My dialogue with Pastor Andy Stanley about homosexuality and here's what I write towards the end of my article.

2015. My big question is this. In my view, any solid evangelical teacher or preacher should be able to say without hesitation, quote, God's word clearly forbids all homosexual practice, even in a loving monogamous context. But our church is absolutely committed to loving and serving the LGBT community and offering them a place they can call home as they come to know the Lord. Then ask the question, what stops Pastor Stanley from making this statement? This is 2015.

I hope to find out soon. Better still, I hope to hear him make this statement. It was 2015. I have not yet heard him make this statement. OK, so a couple of years after that, I'm speaking at a conference in California, Culture Wars Conference led by theologian Dr. Peter Jones.

During the conference, Dr. Jones makes the comment that Andy Stanley supports same sex marriage. I text him as I'm sitting there listening. I text him and he said, that's not true. Please set the record straight. So he gave immediately when we interacted, he said, here's my email.

Here's my phone number. So I didn't call him because I'm not just going to intrude, but I did text right at different times. He immediately said, that's not true. Please correct it. I told Dr. Jones, he said, well, why don't you get up when you have your next session tomorrow?

Because everybody will be there. So I corrected it publicly. But I went one step further. I went on national radio and I said to everyone listening that I could. Pastor Andy Stanley does not believe in same sex marriage. If you wanted me to say it, I said it as loudly as I could to whatever audience I had.

So that was two thousand seventeen. But over the years, things have gone back and forth and I've interacted with him. I said, hey, could you just make this statement?

No, can't do it. Well, he doesn't want to put a stumbling block in front of kids that identify as gay or lesbian. He wants to be able he wants them to come to the church. He wants them to hear about Jesus. He wants them to meet the Lord for themselves. And there's so much baggage and we get involved in culture, wars and politics and all of this and drive them away. You know, they hear a shouting from the pulpit about the culture, about politics, and it drives them away. I, I understand that. I get it. But I've said to him, I'm not talking political.

I'm talking pastoral. What do you tell the kids in your church who've been struggling? Well, that's the thing. Hey, we've been doing this for years now. In, you know, high school, middle school, we've been helping.

We've been helping parents to love and embrace their kids wherever they are, et cetera, not drive them away, OK, but are they coming to the Lord and being changed or coming to the Lord and recognizing that they can't follow Jesus and be in same sex relationships at the same time? Do they understand that? So candidly, and Andy knows this, I've been frustrated with his lack of response. A few years back, my book comes out, Has God Failed You? So the publisher was looking for different people to endorse it. We're discussing sometimes I don't get any endorsements. I just put the book out.

Sometimes we get lots of endorsements. So this is what about Pastor Andy Stanley endorsing the book? I said, well, yeah, let's get in the manuscript. So he reaches out to me and says, I love the book. It's a great book. Hey, if you could add one other thing, like even like have a dialogue at the beginning, which which didn't work, the book is already done. But he he was over the top with praise and encouragement about the book. Has God failed you?

Finding faith united, ensure God is real. So I said, hey, why don't you write an endorsement? And he goes, oh, I can't let me. So he calls me. So we talk on the phone at some length and he explains.

And he knows I'm bringing this up today. He explains he can't because of my chapters dealing with LGBTQ issues. Now, they are full of compassion.

They are full of sensitivity. For years now, I have been asked literally to go around the world and help equip the church on how to in a sensitive and loving and gracious way, stand clear on what the word says. You know, our model hearts of compassion, backbones of steel reach out to the people with compassion, resist the agenda with courage, grace and truth coming together as one so to model that and he had no argument with how I presented things, but could not identify with the book that so clearly addressed these things. Lest it hurt his ministry outreach to the gay community. I have a real problem with that. And he knows I have a real problem with that. So earlier this year, as more reports came up and more concerns and clear evidence of people on his church staff, I mean, video evidence, Zoom call and things like that, encouraging parents, well, you can refer your kid to this this counseling organization, which will affirm that kid say, yes, you can be a not not just have same sex attraction, but you can affirm that and you can follow Jesus. You can be the same sex relationship, follow Jesus at the same time. So I confronted him and we went back and forth. Friends, I'm talking about as clearly as I could present things.

I'm talking about emails and text one after another, after another, after another. And I said to Pastor Andy, would you please just affirm these two statements? Number one, homosexual practice is always sinful in God's sight. Could you can you tell me any Christian leader who is faithful to the word, who cannot make that statement, that homosexual practice is always sinful in God's sight, we're not talking about struggling with same sex attraction. My hat's off to those who struggle with same sex attraction, to those who who say, I know it's wrong, I'm struggling with it and I'm not giving in and I'm celibate, man, that's that's incredible for someone to say, I have to honor the Lord with my body, with my heart, with my mind.

We're not talking about the struggle, we're talking about the practice. I said, can you simply say that homosexual practice is always sinful in God's sight? No response. Can you simply say that under no circumstances will God bless the same sex relationship?

No response. The final response he gave me was basically, why don't you concentrate on what God's burden you to do? Let me concentrate on my calling. And then these exact words, sometimes ministry preempts clarity.

Yeah, those very words. There are times when ministry preempts clarity, verbatim from Pastor Andy. And I said to him, brother, you need to repent. That is sinful. That is wrong. And I wrote an article with that very title earlier this year, a plea for ministerial clarity.

I quoted those words, but I didn't say it was Pastor Andy. Why? Because I was waiting for the conference to take place in September. Knowing once that happens, this will be news. This will be news everywhere.

And that's why we're talking about it now. And now we have Pastor Andy's full message from yesterday and the conference. We come back. We're going to get into some clips from the conference where I've called him to repent and say exactly what's right and exactly what's wrong as clearly as we can for the good of the body, for the sake of those we want to reach.

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This was September 26th. I wrote to him and let's let's read it to you directly. Hey, Andy, as you know, for eight years, I asked you for answers to these simple questions regarding same sex relationships without a direct response. Whatever spin you put on your upcoming conference, it cannot be justified scripturally. My only hope is that you'll at least be clear on your refusal to say that same sex relationships are never right in God's sight, no matter how loving or committed. I wrote this earlier in the year, not mentioning your name, as I knew things would blow up in October, a plea for ministerial clarity, so I sent her the link. The truth is that ministry calls for clarity rather than preempts it. In light of the conference and Dr. Al Mohler's article and lots of people asking about the speakers, Dr. Mohler wrote an article directly about this. I did issue this call for prayer for your repentance.

And I did copy him on X, which used to be Twitter. I'm going to play that for you in a moment. Of course, I share your desire to show compassionate love to those struggling with same sex attractions or gender confusion, but I'm committed to telling the truth as well. No, not only grace together with truth reflects God's heart.

Should you say to me, you don't understand you're misjudging. I say in reply, you had eight years to set the record straight, your friend praying for your repentance. So this is the video that we posted about a week ago. And again, I copied Pastor Andy when I did so. I want you to see what I said publicly to everybody and then we'll go to the unconditional conference and to Pastor Andy's own words from his sermon on Sunday.

I want to encourage everyone to pray for the repentance and change of heart of Pastor Andy Stanley. We've had cordial interaction going back since 2015. And although at one point he asked me to publicly state that he did not believe in same sex marriage when that was attributed to him at a conference where I was, I asked him. He said, no, that's not his belief. I have to be candid that for eight years of interaction, I have done my best.

I have been as pointed and clear as I can by text and email and even speaking occasionally by phone. Please answer this question. Is same sex practice always wrong in God's sight? He would not answer that.

Are same sex relationships always wrong in God's sight? He would not answer it. When they finally put an answer in writing, it was, quote, sometimes ministry preempts clarity, and I said, brother, you are in error and you need to repent. Well, I've not said much about it this year because of a conference that was coming this October, which is now upon us. And in that conference, not only does he have a Christian leader who has shifted his views or a heterosexual Christian leader who has shifted his views and says that loving same sex relationships should be affirmed and accepted in the body. So if they're committed monogamous same sex relationships, they should be affirmed and accepted by the body. So this is one of the speakers at this conference.

Two other speakers are professing gay Christians in relationship with other men. This is deplorable. This is deceptive.

This is destructive. This is contrary to scripture. By all means, we reach out with love and compassion. By all means, we recognize how deeply some struggle with same sex attraction. By all means, we give the same mercy, grace, love, kindness that was displayed to each of us, we recognize all of us fall short. All of us need grace. We recognize, Jesus said, the same blood for heterosexual, homosexual. However you identify, he shed the same blood for each of us.

And there's redemption, forgiveness and new life for all of us in the Lord. And by all means, we work with those who have ups and downs and struggles. But under no possible circumstances do we affirm same sex relationships or call on the church to change its stand from the clear testimony of scripture, which makes plain homosexual practice is always sinful in God's sight. Under no circumstances do we change the historic understanding of church and synagogue, that same sex relationships are sinful in his sight. Pastor Andy, you know, I've reached out every way I know how.

I've been the best possible friend that I could be to try to build bridges and try to communicate clearly and give you a platform to do the same. Now that this conference is here, it's important that I say everyone pray for Pastor Andy Stanley to turn his heart back to God on this. He's on the wrong path. May the Lord grant him repentance and may the many that follow him because of the influence he has, may they not be led astray and may young people, especially the dis-targets intended for them and their parents, may they not be led further astray by this deep and dangerous deception. All right.

So the conference, I said October is the end of September. I sent that to Pastor Andy. He said, I'm still not clear what I'm supposed to repent of, except for not being clear to those outside of our network. So I wrote back this to him.

Thanks for the prompt and gracious reply, Andy. So for the record, you need to repent for refusing to agree publicly and privately with what God says about homosexual practice, for inviting speakers to influence your church and network who claim that you can follow Jesus at a firm homosexuality at the same time, for inviting men who are in relationships that God calls detestable to speak to your people, for denying that people on your staff affirm that you can follow Jesus and practice homosexuality at the same time and perhaps empowering them to do so as well, it's just a list for starters. Unless your purpose of inviting David Cushy and Justin and Brian and others to your conference this weekend is to rebuke them publicly and call for the repentance, which is obviously not the case. It's clear where you stand.

And for that, my friend, you need to repent. The only positive in all this is that it will be impossible for you to deny the obvious after this, I will certainly stay tuned. By the way, you say, why don't you read all of his emails? Number one, there's nothing hidden in his emails, but that's what he wrote to me. What I what I'm sharing is what I wrote to him. So that's for everybody to know.

But there's nothing hidden. My emails indicate what his replies were. Always gracious, always friendly, but at no point ever making a specific statement.

You say, but but hang on. On Sunday morning, he said the Bible says that marriage is an union of one man and one woman. And he said, we're not condoning sin. He absolutely said that he absolutely said that that's not all that he said. But remember, he said it on the heels of a conference where men spoke in his church. Men spoke, leaders spoke with his approval, some who have been there several times before in the past. They spoke there and they themselves are in same sex relationships.

They were some of the featured speakers. You're telling me that young people are not going to be influenced by that, by their parents, that I can be influenced by that, that it can you give me any possible justification. If you say that marriage is only the union of a man and woman and that those who practice homosexuality, just like those who practice adultery, those who practice fornication, those who practice other sins in an unrepentant way, they will not inherit the kingdom of God. The word is quite explicit on that. There's no ambiguity in the scriptures about that. People may want to make it ambiguous, but people didn't think it was ambiguous until after the sexual revolution, which should tell you something of the 60s and 70s. So the point is, there's no possible way that you can justify people in that state, no matter how gracious and kind and sweet they may be, as being examples to your church. There is a fundamental, deceptive and destructive contradiction here. And the more it gets muddled, the more people's lives are going to be destroyed.

The very ones you want to help, you end up destroying. All right. We come back and I go straight to Pastor Andy's clips. I've been doing my best to give full context, full explanation, full history. Now straight to his clips and then the subsequent email I sent.

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Brown. OK, so a number of quotes. Pastor Andy originally just preached this for his people first on Sunday. He said he wanted them to hear it first and then get it out to everybody else. Afterwards, I shot him a note.

We've interacted this morning. I said, hey, I'm going to play clips on the air. If you just want me to read transcript, I will. But otherwise, I'm going to play clips on the air. He didn't. So I said, tell me if you don't want me to.

He did not tell me not to. So you're hearing these clips in this context, on a national context, I guess, for the first time. So I'm going to give you six representative clips. Key, key moments from his from his message.

Let's go with clip number one. What do we believe? What does our church believe? In churches our size, you can find individuals who believe just about anything, everything and nothing.

The better question perhaps is this question. What do we teach? What do we teach your children, your grandchildren? What do we teach about these issues? And it's the same thing we have taught for 28 years. Nothing has changed as it relates to sexuality. Here's what we teach. And hopefully you know this.

I feel like if you've been coming for a while, there should be no question about this, but I don't mind just putting it out there. We teach what I refer to as a New Testament sexual ethic. In fact, I wrote a whole book about this, The New Rules for Love, Sex and Dating. My son Andrew calls it Loving, Sex and Dating.

I'm like, that's not the name of the book. It's The New Rules for Love, Sex and Dating. Anyway, so from middle school to high school, to college, to singles, to marriage, to single, single again, every age and stage of life, this is what we teach. Whether a student is straight or gay or questioning, this is what we say. Hey, if you're going to follow Jesus while you're figuring this out, if you're going to follow Jesus as you struggle with your identity or some of the things you're feeling as you're as you're if you're going to follow Jesus, here's what it looks like sexually to follow Jesus.

And the reason your Heavenly Father has called you to live this way is because he loves you. Here it is. It's just three statements. All right, so first thing very clearly, laying out, we teach this. We've taught this for 28 years. All right. And we do there is a New Testament sexual ethic.

And this is what we hold to. All right, clip number two. Number one, honor God with your body. Because the Holy Spirit lives in you and your body is how people know what you believe and where you stand and your behavior through your body is to exemplify the goodness of God and the grace of God and the love of God.

So you always honor God with your body and you always honor other people's bodies. Number two, don't be mastered by anything, not by porn, not by sexual addiction. Don't be mastered by another person. Don't be mastered by your infatuation. Don't be mastered by your lust. Don't be mastered by anything.

You have a master and he's a king and he loves you and he created you. And he knows what's best for you. And number three, the old fashioned one, don't sexualize a relationship outside of marriage. That is so old fashioned, no sex before marriage.

Well, if you're not married, I mean, who even teaches that anymore? Always have. Always will. And here's why we're not going to blink on this. All right.

So again, hopefully when he's taught on this, he's used scriptural background and all this, but clear, we're not going to blink on this point for point. I'm with you. Amen. Well said. Thank you for making it clear.

Number three. And I've asked people in crowds this question, I've asked many people, dozens of people over the desk this question. Hey, has sex outside of marriage made your life better or has it made it more complicated? Has sex outside of marriage made the person you had sex with? Did it make their life better or did it make their life more complicated?

And honest people say, yeah, it created some complications. Well, then what do you expect your Heavenly Father to say? Who loves you and loves the person whose life you may have set back? What do you think their Heavenly Father is going to say about sexual activity? When oftentimes our sex outside of marriage makes you a liar for life because you're never going to tell the truth about your past because you're too ashamed.

What did you expect? All right. So again, clear about sexual morality, dangers of adultery, etc. Now, he'd spent the good part of the message up to the point we're playing clips from talking about in the past, a kid comes out as gay, tells his mother and father that the mother and father desperately tried to change them. OK, you're a boy. We'll get you dating this nice, pretty Christian girl.

Or they're just going to bombard them with scripture. You have to repent. And it's like, I'm trying to change. I can't change. This is how I feel.

And maybe you get put out of the house, maybe come under the pressure, maybe commit suicide. And the fact that in his church, kids, high school, then middle school started coming out to their youth leaders and home group leaders and things and saying, hey, I'm gay, I'm lesbian, etc. He thought, I'm so glad you're coming. I'm so glad you find a safe place here. In his view, the church should be the safest place to talk about this word.

Most cases it's the hardest place or the most difficult. You're going to get put out. You're going to be misunderstood. So one wonderful, wonderful, wonderful that parents are being told, love your kids no matter what. Years back, I was speaking to church.

They asked me to talk about, can you be gay and Christian after the service? I meet a couple. They're standing there crying. What's going on?

Our daughter, she's 16. She says, she's a lesbian. And I said, well, where is she? She said, well, we kicked her out. I said, you did what? She said, we kicked her out.

She's living with her uncle. I said, you call that girl and you get her back in your house. You say, hey, you're our daughter.

We were wrong to kick you out. You're always going to be a no matter what happens. You're our daughter and we love you. And now that you've opened up about your own life, we love you even more. And obviously, you know what we believe the Bible says.

And God says about same sex relationships. But we're your parents. We love you. And how can we be involved in your life?

Tell me your story. And you open up and you do that. So, amen, 100 percent. But then what do you tell those kids then? It's one thing to love them.

It's one thing to say you're always going to be your kid. It's one thing to say we're not going to beat you over the head with the Bible. You know, when you leave the room in the morning, your bedroom, that where you're going to come back with scriptures plastered all over the walls, that, you know, it's a detestable, an abomination. We're going to pray for you, obviously. But we're not going to beat you over the head and batter you and try to make you change from homosexual to heterosexual.

Let's start here. But you understand what the Bible says. You understand what God's will is. You understand that you can't follow Jesus and be in a same sex relationship. So let's really pray. And if you really want to follow the Lord, that's the first thing. Just make sure you've given your life to him refresh.

Now, let's really pray. Let's try to get to the root of what's going on and see what the Lord wants to do in your life. Is that what you're saying?

Or, hey, we love you and affirm you. Are we even asking why so many are coming out as gay, lesbian, bi, trans? Could it be more than just what's going on on the inside? Could it be sociological contagion and other spiritual things going on? The answer is obvious. Yes. All right, three more clips from Pastor Andy.

Clip number four. So the message is the same for everybody. Sex is for married people regarding marriage.

And this feels weird to even say this, but just make sure everybody knows where we are. We talk about marriage or we talk about and teach about marriage the same way the way Jesus and the apostles did. Every instruction in the Bible regarding marriage references or assumes a husband and a wife, a man or a woman.

So biblical marriage, biblical marriage is between a man and a woman. We've never shied away from that. We don't change the words that we're not to offend people. All right. Wonderful.

This is what he told me what 2017 say publicly. Marriage is the union of a man and a woman. And everything in the Bible presumes male, female.

Amen. Now, if you've been a member of his church for years, did you know that was his position? I'm just asking you a question.

Has he said that? Did you know it? Did you know from your small group leader, from your youth pastor?

Did you all know that that was the church position? I'm asking a question. I'm not making a statement.

I'm asking a question. If that is the case and I take him at his word, he said it. He's been consistent. He said it to me privately. He's saying it publicly. I take him at his word 100 percent. That's what he believes. Biblical marriage is the union of a man and a woman. The man said it from his pulpit.

He said it to me privately. I take him in his word. If that's the case, how can you have speakers at your conference who are in same sex relationships? Or one gentleman, Brian, may be one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. May have Christian ethics in many, many other ways.

But he is proudly married, quote, married to his male partner. You don't bring that into your church. In fact, Pastor Andy said, hey, these men, Justin, Brian, I had a meal with Justin years ago before we were part of an NRB dialogue.

Nice guy. Many, many Christian things that we'd agree on. But absolute fundamental difference here.

These men have spoken to the church for years. Again, that's destructive. That's deceptive.

What kind of example is that setting? What is it telling young people? All right. I'm just laying it out. You can't do both.

It's like First Kings 18 with the Yahweh and the Elijah and the prophets of Baal. How long are you going to limp or halt between two opinions? It's got to be one way or the other.

You can't do both. All right. Two more clips.

Number five. Now, here's what may surprise all of us straight people. The gay attenders in our churches, they aren't shocked that we talk that way. They aren't shocked by that. They expect that.

They grew up on that. They hoped. For that. They prayed.

For that. They prayed that God would change them so they could experience that. I sat in groups with small groups of gay men, 35 and up to 65. And watch them weep. Because they don't have family. They couldn't have family. They prayed for that and God didn't answer their prayer. Many are convinced that traditional marriage is not an option for them. So they commit to living a changed life in the old fashioned word.

And for many men and women who put their faith in Christ, they just decide, okay, I'm just going to buckle down. I'm just going to bear down. I'm just going to be by myself.

I'm not going to have family. I'm going to be sexually pure. And many, many, many, many do that. For long seasons of time. For some, it's their whole life. So that's something that those of us who are straight, heterosexual, never dealt with that should deeply consider the pain, the struggle. And then, okay, we're just going to be by ourselves, live alone. And they finally decide the only romantic expression they can forgive them, the sex part, but this romantic companionship is same sex. That's what I feel to do and the only thing I can do. And they make that choice. So how does Pastor Andy respond to that?

So that's the last clip. We'll take it up on the other side of the break. But Skip in Utah asking, why do I just focus on gays being sinners?

I don't. But have you been to an adultery pride parade or a fornication pride parade? Or porn pride parade, for that matter?

No, people are not celebrating this. They're not saying you can live in an adulterous relationship and be Christian at the same time. We're dealing with this because of a massive brainwashing of our kids in our society because of a massive rewriting of the Bible. Skip, that's why we're dealing with this here.

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It was very difficult to do anything without wearing a tight strap. And then Michael shared the Nopal cactus juice with me, Nopal. I began drinking about that much in the morning in the glass and that much later in the day. And in three months, I was a different person. I have now gone more than 10 years with no pain, not better. Well, I have no joint pain. I am telling you, it did something to the inflammation in my body that was undeniable, and that's just my testimony. But that's been more than 10 years with no pain.

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Call 800-771-5584 or go online to TriVita.com. This is how we rise up. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, get on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks, friends, for joining us on the line of fire. It was 2004 when God began to lay on my heart that gay activism was the principal threat to freedom of religion, speech and conscience in America. Already in 2004, that this was an issue that everyone would have to deal with in the church that could not be avoided and then began to break my heart for the people. Began to break my heart with God's love for the people and gave me that word, reach out to the people with compassion, resist the agenda with courage I've watched. We have watched the destructive agenda that's now got to the point of mutilating children in the name of trans rights, genital mutilation and chemical sterilization, children, 13 year old girls having full mastectomies only at 18 to say, what did I do?

What was the medical profession? You know, this is all part of what started with a gay activist agenda, LGBTQ plus. That's where we address these things. And then massive confusion in the church where clarity with compassion is crucial. All right, last clip from Pastor Andy. Person struggle, same sex attracted, recognizes it's wrong in God's sight, but finally says, I can't live alone and now is in a same sex relationship, but still going to Pastor Andy's church.

Let's listen to the last clip. But for many. That is not sustainable. It's that they choose the same sex marriage, not because they're convinced it's biblical, they read the same Bible we do. They chose to marry for the same reason many of us live.

Love, companionship and family. And in the end, as was the case for all of us, this is the important thing. I want you to hear me say it's their decision. Our decision is to decide how we respond to their decision. Our decision as a group of local churches is how are we going to respond to their decision, and we decided 28 years ago, we draw circles. We don't draw lines.

We draw big circles. If someone desires to follow Jesus, regardless of their starting point, regardless of their past, regardless of their current circumstances, our message is come and see and come sit with me. And this is not new. This is who we are as we've always been. And this is why I love our church and this is why I'm so extraordinarily proud of you. We aren't condoning sin. We are restoring relationships. And we are literally saving lives.

All right, maybe saving lives in a certain way where kids are not committing suicide, but destroying lives and others. Now, first thing, when Pastor Andy said that same-sex couples. So they're professing Christians. Maybe they're genuine Christians, but now same-sex attracted. Same as I've been attracted to women only my entire life. And now Nancy and I go on 48 years of marriage, same-sex attraction. That's all this person can remember knowing. And now they're in a relationship, but they know what's wrong. Well, no, no, no.

Hang on. Many will claim that the Bible condones that. Many will claim that the speakers at the Unforgiven Conference like Justin Lee and Brian, forgive me, I forget his last name, would both say and David Gushy, the evangelical ethicist, all three would say that God blesses committed monogamous same-sex relationships.

They would all say that they were speakers at the conference. And I'm quite sure that gay couples sitting in Pastor Andy's church, listening to him, they do not feel that if we continue to live like this without repentance, that we are forfeiting our souls. So here's what I wrote to Pastor Andy here. This is our interaction as of today.

So we got right back to me about yesterday's message and I said this, Andy, thanks as always for being so incredibly gracious to respond in the midst of what must have been an incredibly busy week. I was actually going to play some clips from the audio on my radio show today in keeping with my plan to address the controversy fairly on the air today. But if you prefer, I'll just read the relevant quotes. If you don't want the audio out yet, please let me know.

So he didn't tell me not to, hence we played them. For your information, what I'll say is this. One, I commend your heart to help LGBTQ identified youth. Two, by all means, parents should be loving and understanding. Three, I'm glad you reaffirm marriage is the union of a man and a woman and refer to other unions as sin. Four, I'm glad you preach sexual purity. Five, I'm grieve that you've been so ambiguous in your public proclamations for years.

Six, I'm grieve that to this moment you will not say on record. Yes, homosexual practice is always sinful in God's sight. And under no circumstances will God bless the same sex union.

Now, let me just step back from this for a moment. And you might say to me, Dr. Brown, he did that. He said marriage is the union of biblical marriage is the union of a man and a woman.

And we don't condone sin. Well, then make that statement for eight years. Pastor Andrew, you know this when you get to watch this for eight years. I've been asked you to make that statement.

In other words, is it possible? You say, here's the ideal. This is this is God's intent. But he understands some people that just can't help it. Some people are lonely. Some people want companionship. God does it's better that the man's not alone. Genesis two, the whole thing. And God understands if you're in a same sex relationship, is that what he believes?

I don't know, because he won't answer it. And this is what is so destructive to the flock and to all those who follow Pastor Andy, I'm giving you all this interaction. So you see, I've been as fair as I can be.

All right, let me keep going. Number seven, you caricatured the critics in your message. Hey, I'm one of them. He mentioned the critics say if one of these critics had had a child or a grand child that identified as gay or trans, they changed their to plenty of my friends and colleagues who differ profoundly with Pastor Andy have lived through that very thing, all right, and I've got an older cousin that came out as trans years ago and cut me off relationally. We understand these things. Don't you think we all wrestle with them before the Lord, before we speak? So the caricaturing of the critics.

Eight, you make no reference to X gays or expose their message to your church. Maybe it's not just a matter of praying, praying for change, but getting godly counseling that can help get to the root of these problems, because same sex attractions are not a unique animal, completely contrary to any other fallen human struggle. They may be powerful and deep. And for some feel as if they've always been there. But but but they are not unique in that. Well, that's the one thing. No, no, the gospel can reach and change everything. And there are plenty of X gays all around and X trans people as well. Number nine, worst of all, you bring in men in sinful relationships before God as examples to your church, thereby telling the young people and the parents implicitly, if not explicitly, that same sex relationships are an option for a committed Christian. That's the worst of all. Ten, I seriously doubt if a gay couple attending your church truly understands that you believe they are hell bound unless they repent.

Do you? Eleven, you were wrong to distance yourself from my book. Has God failed you? Which you really like because I lovingly dealt with LGBTQ issues with biblical clarity, him endorsing my book or not is completely immaterial. One million percent immaterial in terms of the endorsement. But his reason for not endorsing it is absolutely wrong and is the type of ambiguity that only hurts people. Number twelve. Of course, I reject your statement to me earlier this year that there are times ministry preempts clarity.

Number thirteen, Jesus drew lines and not just circles. I enclosed for him my latest article. You can read it at AskDr. Brown.org, AskDrBrown.org. If you don't get my emails, make sure you sign up so you don't miss a single article because I normally write five a week and put out multiple videos a week on our daily radio show dealing with hot button issues from a perspective of grace and truth, word and spirit, hearts of compassion, backbones of steel. That's what we seek to do, whether it's politics, whether it's the Bible, whether it's culture, et cetera.

So read my latest article. It's posted tomorrow's broadcast on the line of fire. I'm going to dig into that subject. Did Jesus just draw circles or did he draw lines also?

And did he draw very clear and definite lines? We're going to get into that with a lot of scripture tomorrow. But right now you can read the article on AskDr. Brown.org or over on the AskDr. Brown Ministries app. Jesus drew lines and not just circles.

See the attached article, which will start running on different sites today. Then I end with this. If you'd like to correct anything I've written here before my show, please let me know. Now he communicates back and forth, back and forth.

He sent me no corrections to this. And this was, oh, six, seven hours ago we interacted. If you'd like to come on my show today between three and four p.m. or any other day this week, just let me know and we'll clear the schedule. I took heat for having you on to discuss to discuss unhitch. That was a few years ago.

I was accused of being too soft on a heretic, but I'm not a sensationalist or Christian gossip columnist. I speak and write and act as a shepherd who cares for the sheep with love and no anger. I think you know that, Michael. So, friends, that's it. That's the record.

That's my commentary. I care deeply for those who struggle with same sex attraction all the more with those who want to follow Jesus and struggle at the same time. I'm not in your shoes. I don't say it's easy. I don't say, oh, well, just snap your fingers. And no, it's deep.

But as one pastor said in England. Says no to same sex attraction. He says this.

So same sex attraction. But he says no to it when people say it must be so hard for you. He said, no, Jesus requires everything from all of us.

Jesus requires everything from all of us and Jesus is enough. If you're struggling, if you're hurting, you may want to check out my book. Can you be gay and Christian? If you have a friend, loved one, family member struggling, this book you'll find really helpful. Can you be gay and Christian? I have free messages online you can check out as well. Pastors leaders, we've got a six minute teaching. Can you be gay and Christian? An animated video. Kind of PragerU style. All these resources are out there for you.

Most of them are free. Let's reach those who are hurting. Let's bring a message of truth and clarity. And let's also rebuke sin and call it what it is. Pastor Andy, you've got to do better and you've got to make some radical changes to be in full conformity with the will and heart and mind of God as a pastor and shepherd. I say it in love. Another program powered by the Truth Network.