Biblical Clarity on the Holy Spirit

Biblical clarity on the Holy Spirit. That is the topic we'll discuss today right here on the Christian Worldview radio program, where the mission is to sharpen the biblical worldview of Christians and to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ.

I'm David Wheaton, the host. The Holy Spirit is the most used and abused member of the Trinity, writes our guest Costee Hinn in his new book, Knowing the Spirit. Costee would know, growing up in the extreme charismatic movement as the nephew of world-renowned faith healer Benny Hinn. God graciously saved Costee out of that heresy, and now he pastors Shepherd's House Bible Church in Arizona. He joins us this weekend on the Christian Worldview to offer biblical clarity on the Holy Spirit, how to receive the Spirit and walk by him, how the gifts of the Spirit operate today, and many more aspects that we hope you gain from. Costee, it's so good to have you back on the Christian Worldview radio program. We're going to talk about your brand new book today, Knowing the Spirit, who he is, what he does, and how he can transform your Christian life.

That's the subtitle of the book. But before we get into that, I just wanted to spend a little bit of time talking about a major news story that came out this week with regard to Andy Stanley. The churchleader.com website said in its headline, Andy Stanley affirms traditional view of marriage following controversial unconditional conference. On Sunday, October 1st, so this just happened, pastor and author Andy Stanley addressed swirling speculation about his stance on gay marriage during a service that was not live-streamed. He publicly affirmed the traditional view that marriage is meant to be between one man and one woman, while also emphasizing the need for compassion for those with LGBTQ-plus identities. That's from churchleader.com website.

Now, let's get into the transcript of what he actually said. I'm just going to read two or three paragraphs costing that let you comment as a pastor. From the sermon, I sat in small groups, Stanley said, of gay men, 35 and up to 65, and watched them weep because they don't have a family.

They couldn't have a family. They prayed for that, and God didn't answer their prayer, and many are convinced that traditional marriage is not an option for them, so they commit to living chaste lives. Let me just quickly insert here that Andy Stanley's definition of chaste is not the same as scripture. Christ said if you look at a person with lust in your heart, you've committed adultery in your heart, so chaste-ness goes beyond just physical sexual immorality. God calls us to have pure hearts and desires as well.

The article the article continues. For many men and women who put their faith in Christ, they just decide, okay, I'm just going to buckle down. I'm just going to bear down. I'm just going to be by myself. I'm not going to have a family.

I'm going to be sexually pure, and many, many, many, many do that for a long seasons of time, and for some it's their whole life, but for many that is not sustainable, Andy Stanley says. So they choose a same-sex marriage not because they're convinced it's biblical. They read the same Bible we do.

They choose to marry for the same reason many of us do love companionship and family, and in the end, as was the case for all of us, this is the important thing I want you to hear me say. It's their decision. Our decision is to decide how we respond to their decision. Our decision as a group of local churches is how we are going to respond to their decision, and we decided 28 years ago we draw circles. We don't draw lines.

We draw big circles. If someone desires to follow Jesus, regardless of their starting point, regardless of their past, regardless of their current circumstances, our message has been, come and see, come sit with me, and this is not new. This is who we are as we've always been. Again, I was quoting from Andy Stanley's recent sermon.

So Costi, you heard all that. I'd just like you as a pastor to put into perspective how significant, or maybe you think insignificant, this is. That Andy Stanley, one of the most visible pastors in evangelicalism, does include in his church and will include those who are involved in unrepentant sexual immorality. Our church here, we're in the Phoenix, Arizona area, where Andy Stanley, by the way, has a lot of influence. He coaches a lot of megachurch pastors out here. We're in an area that's loaded with seeker-driven churches, very similar to Andy Stanley. His number two guy was pastoring a church called Mission Community Church, literally about 200 yards from where I live. So at our church, I've had to be clear in my pulpit that the Andy Stanley approach to scripture, the Andy Stanley approach to the Old Testament, remember, he's been doing these things for years and they keep popping up in different ways.

He hits the news and then it all goes away and he does something else. The unhitch from the Old Testament approach, the we shouldn't say that the Bible says or there was another one member, he said, you need to stop saying you should in your sermons. So you're taking out imperative commands and the ability for a preacher to literally say, like you think about Peter's sermon when the men respond, brethren, what shall we do?

And he goes, repent. I mean, all of those imperatives are gone if you take the Andy Stanley approach. And then this again, with the approach to homosexuality, if you're clear in your church and you're protecting and shepherding the flock, then praise God, you don't need to worry as though this Sunday you need to do an Andy Stanley apologetics sermon.

If you're shepherding faithfully, you're all right. But here's where this becomes a big challenge is Andy's got such a large platform and so much influence that to some degree, I'm very thankful, men like you and a great number of others will take to their podcasts or their radio shows and bring clarity because people are wondering, what do you do with that? I'm thankful because the further he goes down this road, the more obvious it is.

Right. He talks out of the side of his mouth. And that's my greatest concern. The reason it's my greatest concern outside of the fact that he's leading people astray is that's what a lot of false teachers do. They talk out the sides of their mouth. So in one statement, they say something orthodox, then in another unorthodox. In one statement, they say, you know, I believe in the biblical view of marriage and everyone goes, oh, see, he believes in the bill.

Calm down, David Wheaton, you know, lighten up, Costi. And then in the other, they'll say, but hey, at our church and we've decided and how we respond and you're thinking, here comes the mitigation. And he says, you know, we've chosen to draw circles and not lines and broad circles.

And now so now he's using sort of a word salad. There's this lot of words and then these visuals that you go, where's that in scripture? And so the first thought that comes to mind for me is the words of Christ in John 14, where he literally tells his disciples, if you love me, you will obey my commandments. And so I think of Jesus's words, even when he's talking to the Pharisees about divorce, he affirms the biblical view of marriage in one man, one woman, that male and female. And you go, well, Jesus then affirmed the Genesis order for marriage.

Now, Andy basically has painted a very confusing picture. And that's difficult for me to accept as just some well-intentioned approach. It's certainly a false view of marriage. But never do we say that, well, now it's OK because, you know, it's not sustainable that they walk in righteousness. We never shift from, well, they've been fighting this sin and walking in purity, but that's not sustainable. You know, obeying Christ and honoring the Lord with their bodies is not sustainable.

So I understand if you now want to regularly engage in watching pornography, I understand if you need to cuss like a sailor and get drunk a few more times, because, you know, it's just not sustainable to be filled with the spirit. And so you can go ahead and get drunk with wine. We're not to say that. So guys like him are afraid of resistance. They want to say everything to be liked instead of realizing that God changes people when they hear hard truth. So give them all the truth. Let them resist and be fired up and argue a little bit. And then some people will leave.

Yes. But growth will happen, not numerical in a sense, but spiritual. People will grow because you tell them the hard truth. One of my favorite quotes from preaching mentors and men like John MacArthur, Dr. Steve Lawson has said this before, that hard preaching makes soft hearts and soft preaching makes hard hearts. Give people the unvarnished truth and watch as the Lord softens their hearts through it. But we get nowhere by mitigating on sin. So it's a no-go for me, but I got a flock to shepherd and I want to be faithful in that.

But man, Andy's in the crosshairs these days with this kind of stuff. Instead of being clear, like what scripture says in 1 Corinthians 6, do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

That's a truth. But then look at the hope that you were just talking about, Costee, in verse 11. Such were some of you, but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the spirit of our God. In a way, it's really unloving to not tell people and explain to them and help them through and overcome their sin through the repentance and change that Christ offers, to sort of draw these big circles and leave them in that situation where they won't inherit the kingdom of God.

What could be more unloving than that? This is why we should be like Christ and be full of grace and truth. Costee, let's change gears to your book now. I'm just going to list off a few of the chapter titles because you cover a lot in this book. Who is the Holy Spirit? How do you encounter the Holy Spirit? What does it mean to walk by the Spirit? What are the baptism and filling of the Holy Spirit? What does Spirit-filled worship look like? How do you operate in the gifts of the Spirit?

How to preserve the unity of the Holy Spirit? You cover quite a bit in this book, and I found it extremely helpful. But let's just start early in the book. One of your confessions, you make a few confessions in chapter one of the book, is I used to believe in a version of the Holy Spirit that was holy-unholy. And it's been a couple years since you've been on the program, and I think it would be helpful for new listeners who've never heard your story just to briefly share with us your background that led you to write a book on the Holy Spirit. Yeah, I was all in on the prosperity gospel and the work of faith movement, which is basically just the name it and claim it mystical approach that what I confess I will possess. Meaning, I say, I want a bigger house in Jesus' name.

Lord, you're going to bless me with this and that and the other in Jesus' name. And so I had taken that hook, line, and sinker, grew up in it. The reason I grew up in it is because my uncle, my father, a number of other uncles as well, there's a spectrum of fame or influence, I guess you could say. Some of my uncles were just kind of more local-focused guys, but preached all the same things.

And some, like my uncle Benny Hinn, was worldwide famous. And so all of the theology was the same. And the idea was, God is a magic genie, and if I rub him right with enough faith and with enough offerings and with doing whatever I'm told by the Lord's anointed leader, that he's going to give me whatever I want. And that approach to God led to a very skewed view of his character, his attributes, his attributes, but worst of all, the gospel. That the good news is Christ died to save sinners, and that he was buried, he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures. I mean, you think of 1 Corinthians 15, verses 3 and 4, you know, the gospel was not merely that, it was that plus. And yeah, he died to save your sins, that's great.

But man, he died to make you healthy, wealthy, happy. He died so you'd be healed, and healing is guaranteed, and if you adjust this and just that. And then along with that comes all the extremes, and maybe somebody's listening to this, and you would identify as a Pentecostal, or you're part of an assembly of God church, and you would be saying, yeah, I don't like the prosperity gospel either, I repudiate that stuff, I don't ascribe to it as well. You know, I want to be really respectful and be careful broadbrushing all Pentecostals and Charismatics. I still have some dear friends that I dialogue with often, who we would differ on tongues and various aspects of spiritual gifts, but they're all in on the true and only gospel.

They don't add to it or take away from it. For what I grew up in, that extreme version of Charismatic theology, I would call it Charismatic extremism, was that the Holy Spirit was evident in your life only if you spoke in tongues, which we know is a very blasphemous and heretical teaching to say that you haven't been baptized by the Holy Spirit. You're not saved, you're not filled with the Holy Spirit or indwelt, unless you speak in tongues. You've now attached a work, and you've also attached an evidence that Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12 30, not all will do. I had an incredibly unbiblical view of the gospel, of God, the members of the Trinity, Christ, no doubt, and the Holy Spirit. You had me on early on when I released God, Greed, and the Prosperity Gospel.

We did, I think, an interview before that on the book. My first book I wrote with my pastor way back when was called Defining Deception, and I wanted to unpack some of the New Apostolic Reformation stuff, because that's a real extreme movement. The goal isn't to just hammer all the false teachers and do this, that, and the other to stir up strife. It's really just to be clear about the gospel and the glory of Christ. And so God, Greed, and the Prosperity Gospel was my testimony, because there's a lot of details there, and theological course correction in that book. And then I wrote the the next book called More Than a Healer, and it's all about Jesus and how he is a healer, but he's so much more. And then this book was my best effort to take the doctrine of pneumatology, which is the doctrine of the Holy Spirit, and put it in everyday language. But I would say the Holy Spirit is the most used and abused. Now, I know literally you can't abuse the Holy Spirit. He's God.

But just metaphorically speaking or figuratively speaking, it's the most used and abused aspect of the Trinity, and we've got to get that right. So I wanted to take a deep dive and help people just dig in, no matter where they're at or from on this. Our guest today is Kosti Hinn. He's a pastor and author of the brand new book, Knowing the Spirit, Who He Is, What He Does, and How He Can Transform Your Christian Life. This is our new featured resource. It's softcover, 261 pages, and retails for $19.99. You can get a copy for a donation of any amount to the Christian Real View. To order, just go to our website, thechristianrealview.org.

Call us toll free, 1-888-646-2233, or write to Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota, 55331. We have much more coming up with Kosti Hinn as we look for biblical clarity on the Holy Spirit. You are listening to the Christian Real View.

I'm David Wheaton. God's truth is enduringly true throughout all the generations. It transcends culture. The Church is always going to be an embattled people. If it's swimming with the tide, it's not being the Church of Jesus Christ.

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I'm David Wheaton. Be sure to visit our website, thechristianrealview.org, where you can subscribe to our free weekly email and annual print letter, order resources for adults and children, and support the ministry. Our topic today is biblical clarity on the Holy Spirit, and our guest is Kosti Hinn, pastor and author of the brand new book, Knowing the Spirit. Kosti, in the first seven chapters of Paul's letter to the Romans, there aren't many references to the Holy Spirit. But then turn the page to chapter 8, and there are nearly 20 references to the Holy Spirit. Just an example here in verse 9 of chapter 8, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, with a capital S, if indeed the Holy Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him, or does not belong to God. In other words, believers have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of them. And you said in the book, we're conditioned to crave emotional experiences as evidence of the Holy Spirit's residence in our lives. So the question is, how does one encounter or receive or be indwelled by the Holy Spirit?

And you talk about a few things. Does it come from the laying on of hands that we receive the Holy Spirit, from church leaders? Or is it through baptism?

You already referred to that a bit. Is it through anointing from someone in church authority? Is it being prayed over by other Christians? Does it come through speaking in tongues? Or maybe some kind of worship experience? How do we receive the Holy Spirit, and what kind of difference does that make in one's life when they do?

That's a great question. I think first and foremost, you receive the Holy Spirit through believing the gospel. When you put your faith in Christ alone and you believe in Christ, salvation is by grace alone through faith alone, then you receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. He indwells every believer. I think of Ephesians chapter 1 verses 13 and 14, this glorious promise where Paul's encouraging the Christians there at Ephesus to remember the Holy Spirit has sealed them. He has a pledge. He's a guarantee. And the word that Paul uses there for seal is the idea, it's the visual they would have known, the original audience, of a mark, like the emperor's seal, a branding.

And so we think of that in today's terms, you know, cattle. The mark of God is on you. He has marked you, called you, saved you, loved you, known you, and the Holy Spirit is given as a pledge. He's the guarantee. You are guaranteed to be in glory with Christ. You are not going to lose your salvation.

Nothing is going to steal you from God. What he started, he's going to finish. And the Holy Spirit is the seal. He's the mark. He's the down payment. He's the promise of the now, but not yet. He's in you as the temple of God. And he's going to complete what he started. And you don't need to run around all day worrying if you feel it or not.

He's there. If you went to the service and got all the goosebumps at the conference, or they sang the right song, or you got touched by the anointed leader, they put olive oil on you, or whatever people are doing these days, none of that stuff is what does it. The Holy Spirit has sealed you. He marks you as a believer and indwells you. So that all happens through one thing, the gospel. When you believe the gospel, you receive the Holy Spirit. So how is that differentiated from the filling or walking by the Spirit? Ephesians 5 18 gives us a command.

Paul says, and do not be drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, or some of your translations will say, you know, debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit. So if you're commanded to do something, you really should pay close attention to it. We're never commanded to be baptized by the Holy Spirit. That's very interesting.

You will not find a command. You'll find a command to be baptized in water as the visual of being buried with Christ and raised to new life in him, but never commanded be baptized by or in the Holy Spirit. It happens, according to 1 Corinthians 12 13, because we're members of the body of Christ. We're all baptized by one Spirit into one body. We have one Lord.

We're one in Christ. And so that's really clear. Then the filling of the Holy Spirit is this present active command in Ephesians 5 18. It really translates be being filled, meaning be continually filled by the Holy Spirit or filled with the Holy Spirit. And what does that mean? Well, that is a day by day, moment by moment, step by step yieldedness to the Holy Spirit. It's submitting to him.

And you say, well, how do I get filled then? I'm indwell. I don't need to worry about whether I feel it or not. In Ephesians 5, then in verse 19, he says, singing songs, hymns, spiritual songs, making melody in your heart to the Lord. So singing, worshiping God, you could say, even though worship is a lifestyle, singing is part of that. Always giving thanks. So you could say a thankful heart, a thankful praising heart. And he says being subject to one another in the fear of Christ.

So there's this submission. Those are all evidences of the Spirit's filling. They're also the glorious means.

And you say, what do you mean by that? Well, when we're singing praises to God, when we're having a thankful heart, when we're dwelling together with others in the truth, Colossians 3 16 is the parallel passage as well there. Let the word of Christ dwell within you richly. When you fill your life up with God's word, the Holy Spirit is going to fill you.

You're going to be yielded to him. And what's going to come out of you is the fruit of the Spirit. And that's another parallel passage, Galatians 5 verses 16 to 23. There the idea Paul says is, walk by the Spirit and you won't carry out the deeds of the flesh.

Walk is the Greek word peripateo. It means to be preoccupied, totally obsessed with the what? The things of the Spirit. What does the Holy Spirit want us to do? The will of God. To obey God. To follow his word.

To bring glory to Christ. Notice what I haven't said at all, David. I haven't said one thing about the hype of a major conference. I haven't said one thing about the feeling, the goosebumps, the music.

I haven't said one thing about getting laid hands on. I haven't said one thing about falling under the power or being slain in the Spirit. All I've said is sing, pray, fill your life with the word, fellowship with believers, and be submitted and yielded to the Holy Spirit. That is how we can live presently and actively filled with the Holy Spirit. You're not going to hear that a lot these days because people are chasing experiences. And I think we're wired that way. We've been primed, especially in the American church, that if you didn't feel it, you don't got it. Man, we've got to get away from this idea that my feelings are the evidence of the truth. They're not. You could feel it.

You might not. But the truth is the truth, if that makes sense. Yeah, it makes perfect sense. And I think that's very well said and importantly said, because that is that the Spirit, to use that word, the spirit of our age within the church is you must experience the Spirit, so to speak, in order to prove that you are being filled or having some kind of worship experience. Costi Hinn with us today on the Christian Real View talking about his brand new book, Knowing the Spirit, Who He Is, What He Does, and How He Can Transform Your Christian Life. And we think this is an important book. We're offering it to listeners for a donation of any amount.

You can just get in contact with us the usual ways and that information is given during the breaks of today's program. He's also the pastor of Shepherd's House Bible Church in Chandler, Arizona. Just a couple more questions on some of these nuances, Costi. In John 16, Christ says, But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away. Christ talking to his disciples here. For if I do not go away, the Helper, another name for the Holy Spirit, will not come to you.

But if I go, I will send him to you. And he did that at Pentecost. And he, the Holy Spirit, when he comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment, concerning sin because they do not believe in me, and concerning righteousness because I go to the Father and you no longer see me, and concerning judgment because the ruler of this world has been judged. Now, one thing we have been noticing recently as you hear preaching, Costi, is that there can be such a strong emphasis on, let's say, the positive, the feel-good aspects of God's character and nature, that God is loving, compassionate, and gracious, and merciful, all those things which are absolutely true. But there can be a de-emphasis or an ignoring of the kinds of things that that particular passage mentions about the work of the Holy Spirit. And if you're not hearing a balance in preaching on, again, the positive aspects of God, but with the things the Spirit does, convicting the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment. If you're not hearing those kinds of things, questions arise as to, is this pastor, is this leader, actually being led by the Holy Spirit to not be saying the same things that the Holy Spirit convicts the world of?

Your thoughts on that. When Jesus is laying out the Holy Spirit's job description in John 16, and he says, it's to your advantage that I go, think about that for just a second. Jesus, the Christ, the Son of the living God, tells his disciples, it's actually advantageous that I go. And they're thinking, what? You're Jesus. We don't want you to go.

Who could be better for us? What in the world? And so what does he then explain? When he, the helper, comes, the paraclete, the Holy Spirit comes. Well, what does the Holy Spirit do? He begins to lay out what he's going to do. He's going to convict the world of sin. And I want to make something clear for folks here.

Really important. Everyone encounters the Holy Spirit. You say, how? Come on, I thought only believers do.

Well, hold on. When Jesus says he convicts the world of sin, that means every single person is not indwelt by him, but every single person who hears the truth is going to experience conviction by him. You say, well, how does that work? Think about, if you know your Bible, if you don't, let me give you a passage to go look at. Romans 1 18, when the unrighteous suppress the truth. And that passage goes on to explain how people were trading, you know, traditional relations between one man, one woman for same sex, immorality, and God gave them over to their depraved mind.

What did they do? Oh, they knew it was wrong. Paul says in Romans 1 that God had made it plain to them. They knew about God, but they suppressed the truth. The Holy Spirit, no doubt, convicts all human beings of their sin.

The Bible says he does that. They suppress the truth, but the believer in that encounter, if you will, doesn't suppress the truth. They don't ignore or run from the conviction.

They run to it, David. They want to confess their sin. So we all encounter the Holy Spirit, but only the believer will respond to that initial encounter, that counter of conviction that way. He goes on to explain that he will convict the world concerning sin, concerning righteousness, concerning judgment.

What do all those things mean? Well, when the Holy Spirit comes, that means that Christ has gone. And where has he gone?

To the right hand of the Father. And that's a statement of Christ's perfect righteousness, that the Holy Spirit came and Christ ascends means he is exactly who he said he was, only the perfect one, only the righteous one. Christ himself could enter the Father's presence in that way.

And so we ought to say right away, wow, the Holy Spirit coming, and the disciples would have said this first and directly, they're right there receiving this in context. We knew who he was. We believed, we declared and proclaimed who he was, but he's gone to the Father.

We watched him ascend. His righteousness is perfect. He is the righteous one. And the Holy Spirit comes and makes that declaration clear. And then concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged, the Holy Spirit's declaration really through the truth of Scripture, through the vessels he uses to proclaim, and by being sent from the Father and the Son is to basically be this massive scoreboard, if you will. The devil is on one side and Christ is on the other, and the L is underneath the devil's name. Right. It's the ruler of this world has been judged. That's what Jesus says.

That's an L for the devil. That's a loss. He's saying he's lost. I've won victory.

I'm going to return. The Holy Spirit is here. He's the helper. He's declaring that the God of this world, you go that way, you're on the losing side. So I unpack that a ton more in that chapter. But the reason I even used that word encounter, there were a few people that were like, what in the world? You know, was this your charismatic relapse, Costi? You know, some people were making funny jokes. It was great. I used the word encounter on purpose. Why?

I want to take it back. How do you encounter the Holy Spirit? Not by the way you've been fed by these sensationalistic, emotionally charged conferences or ministers that are leading you into these experience-driven things.

No, no, no, no, no. You encounter him through the truth. Our guest is Costi Hinn, pastor of Shepherd's House Bible Church in Chandler, Arizona, and also the author of the book we're discussing today, Knowing the Spirit, Who He Is, What He Does, and How He Can Transform Your Christian Life. We think this is a very helpful book that gives clarity on the Holy Spirit, the third member of the Trinity.

So important to get this right, especially in the world we're living in right now. Costi, correct me if I'm wrong, but the fastest growing branch of professing Christianity is the continuationist movement, and Costi is going to describe the spectrum of that movement after this short break here on the program. In the meantime, you can get a copy of his book, Knowing the Spirit, soft cover, 261 pages, retails for $19.99. We are offering it for a limited time for a donation of any amount to The Christian Real View. To order, go to our website, thechristianrealview.org, or call us toll free, 1-888-646-2233, or write to Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota, 55331. Stay tuned, much more coming up. You are listening to the Christian Real View radio program.

I'm David Wheaton. There is a war ongoing. There are two sides in this war. There are those who are with Christ, and there are those who are against Christ, and sometimes it's not always easy to see the difference, but as we go through this information about the great reset, I think you'll find out very quickly what side these great resetters are on. Their own words condemn them.

Know that this has implications for everything, for education, for health care, for your job, for business, for government, for law, for property rights, the social contract, as Klaus Schwab will explain. That was journalist Alex Newman speaking at our recent Christian Real View Speaker Series event on being informed and prepared for the great reset. Alex's presentation is full of sound bites from those who are seeking to transform the world into a godless dystopia.

You can download the audio of the event or order a USB thumb drive by going to our website thechristianrealview.org or calling toll-free 1-888-646-2233. God's truth is enduringly true throughout all the generations. It transcends culture. The church is always going to be an embattled people. If it's swimming with the tide, it's not being the church of Jesus Christ.

Look to the past, learn from the past, because the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. That was from the just released documentary The Essential Church, which chronicles how three churches followed God's command to gather during the pandemic rather than comply with arbitrary government mandates. Normal retail is $12.99 plus shipping for this two-hour film. For a limited time you can order the DVD for a donation of any amount to The Christian Real View. Order at thechristianrealview.org or call toll-free 1-888-646-2233 or write to Box 401 Excelsior, Minnesota 55331. Welcome back to The Christian Real View.

I'm David Wheaton. Be sure to visit our website thechristianrealview.org where you can subscribe to our free weekly email and annual print letter, order resources for adults and children, and support the ministry. Our topic today is biblical clarity on the Holy Spirit and our guest is Costi Hinn, pastor and author of the brand new book Knowing the Spirit. Costi, correct me if I'm wrong, but the fastest growing branch of professing Christianity is the continuationist movement, and by that I mean whether the New Apostolic Reformation—you mentioned the word faith, health, wealth, and prosperity gospel—those who believe those types of, I would say, false doctrines. Continuationist means that they believe that the miraculous sign gifts that God gifted to the apostles in the first century are also gifted, still gifted to men today to do miracles, to do healings, to speak in foreign languages at will.

Describe the spectrum of those who have more continuationist beliefs and why it is the fastest growing branch of Christianity today. You've got folks that just come to faith and they're saved and they just haven't studied pneumatology, so they're looking at the Bible and things make sense now, they believe the gospel, and they come to like 1 Corinthians 12 or something like that and they go, am I supposed to be healing people? The guy from Bethel said signs and wonders are supposed to follow my life, I'm supposed to be prophesying and raising the dead, and like, okay, that doesn't make sense though, I should study this. And they study it and come to find that that's not the normative pattern for every Christian, you don't have to do all those things, and then you get to the end of 1 Corinthians 12 and Paul says, not all do all those things, we all have been given a spiritual gift, and so maybe that person says, look, I don't know if God has given somebody the gift of tongues in like a jungle somewhere, but basically I don't know what to believe, I don't know what the cessationist thing is or the continuum, I just, I'm pretty sure that, you know, I believe the Bible and all that stuff's a little above my pay grade, so you got those kind of people and they just need to learn and keep digging, keep growing. You got the other people, like a John Piper says, he's the open but cautious continuationist where he says, well I don't see it in the text, and so I don't want to say that, and I think we're supposed to pray for these things, I've never gotten them, so he's got a track record, like their church basically, when he's not the pastor at Bethlehem anymore, but when he was there, it essentially looked similar to, let's say, a John MacArthur led service, they sang hymns, they preached the word, you know, no one was down at the altar falling everywhere, John Piper wasn't like, here's an open microphone, come prophesy, and nobody was babbling in tongues, it was generally the same, so you got your open but cautious continuationist, and then you've got your full-blown, we need to be pursuing these things, if you don't have them, there's something you're missing, come to our conference, learn how to prophesy, then there's like, learn how to be an apostle, or do you feel like an apostle, some people charge for this stuff, like Bethel, they have their supernatural school of ministry, you literally pay tuition, the locals there call it Hogwarts, the Harry Potter school for magic or whatever, in that movie, I never saw Harry Potter, but they call it Hogwarts, because it's just this crazy supernatural school that they say, you're gonna come here, and people are like, are they witches, like is this a cult, what are they doing, so you have the spectrum, and here's my concern, too many people are basing their position on feelings, experiences, and on what other people say, and not the scriptures, I have no problem disagreeing with someone on the normative pattern of the miraculous sign gifts today, as we would call them, no issue, if someone doesn't agree with my position, and I lay it out in the book respectfully, I give you the different categories, I try to help people really see the road that I took to get there, and I would be classified as a cessationist, I love to use the phrase non-normative, it's not the normative pattern, because it takes it away from cessation, and people are like, oh, you know, Kosti doesn't believe in the Holy Spirit, and I'm like, y'all are crazy, of course we believe in the Holy Spirit, or some other caricature, oh, you just believe God stopped working, like no, I believe. Or you put God in a box, that's a favorite one. Yeah, they put God in the box, I go, all those are just false dichotomies and kind of distracting, like you think of this argument as a tree, the trunk is the core of the truth and what we're discussing, the branches are all the weird analogies people use to make it seem worse than it is, and you go, no, I believe that the pattern in the early church, based on what the scriptures teach us, was the normative pattern of miraculous signs and wonders through the apostles and the prophets, the early church, they established the church, it exploded, and God used miracles, signs and wonders, and the gift of tongues, known languages exploding forth with the gospel, with the message to Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth, and I want to show people, look at these instances, does this look like your Pentecostal church down the street at the altar when you're 12 and you're told, just move your lips, sha-ba-ba-ba, just keep going, keep saying what they're telling, no, it doesn't, it's purposeful, tongues were assigned to unbelieving Jews, tongues exploded forth, and even the Jews who were at Pentecost started saying, hey, even the Gentiles are getting this stuff, why?

Because God was showing you, once and for all, at the establishing of the church, I'm going to pour out my spirit on all flesh, and that was all evidence, well now, there's not apostles, there's not prophets, prophets were, according to Ephesians 2 20, the foundation of the church, I love that passage because it explains, we are built, Paul says, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets, and Christ himself being the cornerstone, there's your picture, David, the apostle, I have apostles, there are no apostles today, people say, oh, you don't believe they're apostles, no, I have apostles, their names are Peter, James, John, Paul, those are my apostles, and I have prophets, they are the Old Testament prophets, they are the New Testament prophets, they received revelation from God, and they delivered it with perfect accuracy, they never got it wrong, like today's prophets who are fallible, I don't agree, and I respectfully say this, I'm a younger, I'm only 39 in a month, I got no business mixing it up with the Wayne Grudems of this world, Dr. Grudem is a theologian and a giant and has been, I would disagree though, respectfully, with those like him or others who say that you can have fallible prophecy today, how do you claim to hear from God and to declare the word of the Lord, but you get it wrong, and then you got to repent, like some of these men have, I don't agree with that position, that we can be respectful in our disagreement, why? Because the Bible shows me a perfect accuracy rate for prophets, and they are the foundation, and now we have the revealed word of God, his revelation poured forth, and the cornerstone himself, Christ, the cornerstone himself, Christ, and then Paul says we are being built atop them as a holy temple unto God, so I always ask the question, do you ever relay a foundation, and someone might say, well yeah, when the house is really, really compromised, well you tell me, is Jesus building a house, spiritually speaking, that is based on a faulty foundation, he's not, he laid the perfect foundation through the apostles, the perfect foundation through the prophets, and he is the cornerstone, and we're being built atop that, so the normative pattern today is not going to be those things wielded at will, does God heal? Yes.

Can we pray for healing? Yes. Is he a sovereign God who can do miracles?

Yes. Does he intervene in countless ways in our lives? Of course, that's his divine providence, working, always, but you don't need to be chasing signs and wonders and feeling like you're a second-class citizen if you don't do all these things, just go to the scripture, I take two chapters on spiritual gifts, one is just defining all of them, and the reason I did that is because if you define these biblically, then you can apply them rightly, but if you define them in an ambiguous way, well, you're going to be applying them sort of oddly or without clear trajectory, so if you define them biblically, it's remarkable, if you define tongues, not as ecstatic babble, but as known languages, what do you think of tongues today, Kosti? I go, I want to hear somebody speak in Chinese or Taiwanese or Cantonese at will, and go declare the gospel, and then they do that all the time, that's what Paul did. Otherwise, you can't do the, you know, she can, all this stuff, and then you also can't do that in services, in mass, like, you know, you've maybe seen this or someone's listening, they see this stuff, people say, pray in the Spirit, pray in the Spirit, you have all these people begin speaking in these babbling languages, well, that's a full breach of 1 Corinthians 14.

Man, I just want people to think biblically on this, even if we don't agree. Exactly, and that's really why we like your book so much, Knowing the Spirit, because it does, as our title of our program today, it does bring biblical clarity on the Holy Spirit, and I think that is now more important than ever with everything that's going on within Christianity. It's written out very logically, reasonably, charitably, I will add as well, so good job with that, and you can get a copy of Kosti's book, Knowing the Spirit, for a donation of any amount to the Christian Real View.

We'll tell you how you can do that in just a second here, coming up. Let me just conclude our conversation today, Kosti, back to a more personal note you started telling us today about how you came out of the more extreme movement of charismaticism back in the day. How did your worldview, I guess you could say, get reconstructed from that? And part two is, what is your exhortation to Christians listening today about how to be discerning in these matters, and yet, as you write in one chapter of your book, I think it's the last chapter, how to have unity with others who differ on their understanding of the Holy Spirit? I came to this understanding through the Word of God and the faithful preaching of faithful men, and I didn't always agree with them, and I had to wrestle through things. So one, I would encourage people, don't resist the truth, don't resist even challenges to your theology, but let the scriptures inform, and kind of learn to love the sandpaper of what you don't agree with, and then try to think biblically.

So that's one, that really helped, David. I was challenged a lot, and I began to listen to preaching and really study the scriptures, and all I wanted was to land on the most biblical positions that were logical, not that it's just an intellectual exercise, but meaning they make sense, and they make sense biblically. And then I've been on a journey where I've gone from just blasting some of my family members in private, and I've tried it all, man. I've tried to go in, drop the nukes of truth, and that'll save them, and it just starts battles and wars and fights, and I've tried the, hey, let's just love them approach, and then that gets weird because you're not speaking the truth, and you're not loving them if you don't speak the truth. And then I've had the broad brush moments where you're like, man, all these people are crazy, what are they doing? And you just, all of that is part of maturing in faith and in the Lord and in doctrine, and one of the things that the Lord has taught me over the years, and I think this is still something we keep learning forever and keep being convicted of forever.

I heard Chuck Swindoll say this one time. He said, you can be right, but you don't need to be ugly about it. Do I think I'm right? Yeah, I think I've landed on the right position.

I do. I believe that, just like somebody who doesn't agree with me says, well, Costi, I believe I'm right, and that's okay, but I don't need to be ugly about it. At the same time, isn't it a sign of maturity and a sign of the Holy Spirit's fruit that we have love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, self-control? The Holy Spirit's fruit is evident. It needs to be evident in our lives, and I believe that that is seen in our ability to handle disagreement with maturity.

My encouragement to people, wherever you land on pneumatology, is do not miss that last chapter. There is wisdom that we can all learn from the Word and be reminded of from Scripture if we are more of the Reformed type. I think we need to be careful of neglecting the Holy Spirit's work or even just sort of relegating him, even though he's God, and again, I mean this metaphor, or figuratively.

We sort of relegate him off in the corner, sort of awkwardly, because we're not sure what to do with him, and we don't want to be accused of being a crazy charismatic, so someone raises their hands in our church and we're like, oh, it's one of them. They've come in here to mess things up. We should be more careful and more thoughtful. At the same time, there's a word to Charismatics in there, and beginning to tone it down from the emotionally driven experience to, can we get deeper into the Scriptures here? Is the Word enough, or do you have to have the experience? And I think there's something for all of us to learn from God's Word every single day, and wherever we're at, the Lord brings us into balance, and so that chapter on unity is my effort from the Scriptures to help us remember to be tenderhearted, forgiving one another, to be loving, to seek unity where we can find it, but there will be no unity at the expense of truth.

That's a false unity. Kosti, thank you so much for coming on the Christian Real View Radio program today. Thank you for your humility in getting under the authority of God that He has revealed in His Word, and wanting to say, I want to think and do what God's Word tells me to think and do. So we wish all of God's best to you, Shepherd's House Bible Church, your family, and your ministry at For the Gospel. Thanks for coming on the program today. Thanks, David.

Keep up the great work. If you missed any of today's interview, you can always go to our website, thechristianrealview.org to hear a replay or get the transcript. And just one more reminder, you can get Kosti's book, Knowing the Spirit. It's soft cover, 261 pages, retails for $19.99 for a donation of any amount to the Christian Real View.

Just get in contact with us the usual ways, and our contact information is given right at the end of the program today. Let's remember to accurately handle the word of truth with regard to the Holy Spirit. So until next time, think biblically, live accordingly, and stand firm. The mission of the Christian Real View is to sharpen the biblical worldview of Christians and to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ. We hope today's broadcast encouraged you toward that end. To hear a replay of today's program, order a transcript, or find out what must I do to be saved, go to thechristianrealview.org or call toll-free, 1-888-646-2233. The Christian Real View is a listener-supported, non-profit radio ministry furnished by the Overcomer Foundation. To make a donation, become a Christian Real View partner, order resources, subscribe to our free newsletter, or contact us, visit thechristianrealview.org, call 1-888-646-2233, or write to Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota, 55331. That's Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota, 55331. Thanks for listening to the Christian Real View.