The New York Times and the Palestinian Terrorist; and Dr. Brown Speaks with a Rabbi About Yeshua

We're going to take you on a fascinating journey today on Thursday Jewish Thursday. It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 Truth.

That's 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

So, did the patriarchs care about the land that became the land of Israel? Did they care about Canaan? Did they care about the promises to inherit that land? Or were they always looking for something spiritual? and if in fact they were always looking for something spiritual, why should we care about the land?

Today. This is Michael Brown. Welcome to our Thorle Jewish Thursday broadcast, 866-366. 34 Truth, the number to call if you have any Jewish-related question of any kind. Related to the Hebrew language, related to Judaism, Jewish tradition, relating to Israel today, relating to Jesus being the Jewish Messiah.

Any Jewish-related question, phone lines are open. 866-348-6. seven eight eight four. When I did a mini radio debate with Reverend Stephen Sizer in England from England, I should say, we did it by way of phone for up for debate with Moody Radio. When we did that mini debate He pointed to a passage in Hebrews 11.

to say that the patriarchs didn't really care about the land. that it was all spiritual to them. And that therefore we too should not put too much focus on the land of Israel. And there were passages like this that he pointed to, Hebrews 11, verse 8. By faith, Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance, and he went out not knowing where he was going.

By faith he went to live in the land of promises in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city. That has foundations whose designer and builder is God. And then A little later on, it says this, speaking of how these forefathers of faith lived like strangers and exiles on earth. Verse 14 of Hebrews 11, For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland.

If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had an opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them. A city.

Well, is this saying that the patriarchs didn't care about the physical land. and that we shouldn't care about the physical land. Or Is this a spiritual application that's being made, a homiletical? application that's being made by the author of Hebrews. You say, well, how can we determine that?

Well very simple. The later Revelation. Cannot fundamentally change the meaning of the first Revelation. without being questionable. or simply dismissed immediately.

In other words, let's say we're looking at this as followers of Jesus today. If Muhammad comes along and says that he has the True Testament and that He is the seal of the prophets and he changes things that are in the Bible, we reject Muhammad. If some modern-day prophet said, I am the Messiah, I am He, I am Jesus, follow me, we reject that because the scriptures have already warned us. Jesus already warned us not to follow those who say such things.

Well, in the same way, if the New Testament came along and fundamentally changed the meaning of what came before, then it must be rejected as untrue. And that's a battle we have, of course, with traditional Jews who will say, well, it has fundamentally changed the meaning. And that's where you have to say, no, it hasn't. It has fulfilled the meaning. It has opened up what may have been hidden, but it has changed nothing.

It has fulfilled that which was promised.

So what do we know about the patriarchs? What do we know about the land of Israel? What do we know about what the Hebrew scriptures say about it? And in light of that, what do we make of the comments in Hebrews? That's just one of many things we'll be talking about today.

I'm the line of fire, 866-34TRUTH to join us on Thursday Jewish Thursday. Ain't the world It's fire we want for fire we Please stand the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome, welcome to our Thurly Jewish Thursday broadcast. Michael Brown, thanks for joining us 866. 348-7884. I'm gonna go to the phones pretty early in the broadcast today, but first, Let's get back to the question of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, their expectation, and what's written in Hebrews, the 11th chapter. If you'll start.

In Genesis 12. and go through the rest of the five books of Moses. You will see over and over. And over And over. and over and over and over and over again, That God explicitly says that He will give the land.

He will give the land. That physical land, walk around, look at it. that he will give it to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their descendants. He promises it one time after another. This is before the law was given at sinai.

Galatians 3 says the law which comes after cannot undo the promise which came earlier. All right? Over. And over. And over and over.

and over. promise that physical land. to the point that Jacob, you know, when I'm dying, bur bury me. I want to be buried back in my home at Joseph, bring my bones back to why? Because they had to go back to the promised land.

This was the place of promise. And throughout the prophetic books, when the children of Israel are exiled because of sin, the promise you repent, I'll bring you back to the land. I'll bring you back to the land, I'll bring you back to the land, I'll bring you back to the land. It's not just that everybody needs a homeland. Would it matter to 330 million Americans if you say at, you're out of here?

And scattered around the world, you have no homeless. Yeah, that would matter. That would matter.

So everybody needs a homeland. Ask the Jewish people if it mattered not having a homeland during World War II and the Holocaust.

Nowhere to flee to. Of course, it matters. Absolutely. There's a question about that.

So what we have, what we have taught. plainly and simply. Is throughout the Hebrew scriptures that this was not just a homeland, this was a homeland associated with the blessing of God and the purposes of God. And when we get to the prophetic scriptures, speak of what's going to happen at the end of the age, like Zechariah 12 and 14, we see. that there will be a Jewish Jerusalem and yet the people there will be in need of repentance.

and turning to the Messiah and cleansing, which then comes in the 13th chapter, and then God's reign in the 14th chapter.

So we see these things must happen for the future.

So what do we make? of Hebrews 11. It's just a homily. It's a spiritual application. It's saying that these people of faith, the fact that they lived in tents, they knew that there was something ahead they were looking for.

That's the symbolism. Yes, yes, they were nomadic people anyway, but but yes, in point of fact, they were looking forward to living in that promised land, but they knew there was a promise. They were looking forward to the promise, and Hebrews 11 is a homily on that. is not denying what everyone knew the importance of the land. It is a spiritual application made based on the text.

You do not take scores of verses, probably hundreds of verses, and turn them upside down because of a homiletical application that was made. And it's a fundamental error of those in what we call replacement theology. 866-348-788. We go to Boston. Eric, welcome to the line of fire.

Hi, Dr. Brown. How are you? Doing well, thank you. Good.

Okay, my question pertains to Isaiah chapter fifty three, verse ten, the Jewish objection which states that it cannot apply to Jesus. Because the word zero there means seed, always referring to physical offspring, et cetera. And I'm familiar with your material on the subject. I've read what you've written and I've heard you speak on this. But I want to get your thoughts on this.

In Genesis chapter three, God says to the serpent and to Eve that he will put enmity between the serpent and Eve and her seed and the serpent seed.

So my thoughts are that Uh well my question is What is the Jewish understanding of serpent there? Because it would seem to me that they have to interpret it in a metaphoric, excuse me, in a metaphoric sense. Unless they think that, you know, actual snakes are the enemy of of mankind or something. Yeah, they would, yeah, if they just took it literally, though, they'd be talking about enmity between human beings and snakes. Just on the most basic level, and that it's talking about literal offspring.

That would be the argument: that it's literal offspring, and the seed of the woman, Zarah, it doesn't mean her sperm, it means literal offspring. Just like when Seth is born, and later in the fourth chapter, she says, God's given me another seed, so Zarah, offspring.

So, I appreciate your argument. I do think when Israel is called a seed of evildoers and things like that, or serpent seed, and Isaiah, as I've written, that that's to be understood metaphorically. I believe that that's correct, that it should be understood metaphorically there. And that's part of the argument I bring. But he will see Zarah, it doesn't say Zaro, it doesn't say his own physical offspring, but Zarah, he will see seed.

It's the only time that that idiom is used, or expression is used, I should say, in the Hebrew scriptures, Yerezera, that he will see seed.

So the question is: what does it mean? Does it mean future generations? As in Psalm 22, Zerah, a seed, will serve him. Speaking about future generations that will serve the Lord as a result of the great act of deliverance that God accomplishes in Psalm 22, that would work perfectly well for me. Just he will see future generations.

Does it mean his own spiritual offspring? That could work as well, certainly possible. But I wouldn't press Genesis 3 that far. Unless someone was interpreting it in a holy spiritual way. If that was the case, And that's not the normal traditional Jewish interpretation, but if that was the case, then that would work.

Now that would be another example of seed being used in a metaphorical sense in the scriptures.

Okay, thank you so much. You are very welcome. Thanks for putting thought into this. I appreciate it. 866-34Truth.

In a moment, I'm going to be joined by a gentleman with a very interesting story. We interacted some years ago. And he reached out to me a few days ago and said, Hey, why don't we interact again? I said, Great, let's do it. And because we have tremendous flexibility in most of our broadcasts, we don't schedule lots of guests in advance.

We were able to set this up very quickly.

So, I'm going to introduce our guest in a moment. And we're going to have some very interesting interaction. I'll tell you more as we get there. First, let's just grab one more call. Our friend Jonathan in Barhead, Alberta, Canada.

Thanks for joining the line of fire. I think it's got the brown. Um my first question is uh actually you've had Scott vogue on a few times about telling about uh how he gains a Jewish root. And I was wondering how you came to the Jewish root, coming from an Italian Pentecostal background. And um Um and what it how it impacted your life.

And my second question was Is Paul implying that the day of first fruits is on Sunday all the time? Or Are the rabbis right with being the day after passed over for a first group. Yeah, so the second question, I'll try to answer both of these before the break, and then I'll be bringing my guest on. The second question has to do with saying the first day after the Sabbath within Passover and this first fruits offering is given. And Paul uses the same word, 1 Corinthians 15, that the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures, uses in describing this in Leviticus.

So is that always a Sunday? The first day after the Sabbath? The way the Karaites have interpreted it, the way we understand the Sadducees interpreted it, that was the Sabbath, the Saturday Sabbath, and first fruits immediately followed that.

So hence it would always be on a Sunday. The Pharisaical reckoning, which has been preserved by traditional Judaism, says, no, it's the Sabbath of the Passover that's being spoken of, not the Saturday Sabbath.

So it's going to vary from year to year as opposed to what date it is. I think you make a good case for it being a Sunday. And again, you have ancient Jewish traditions that support that. Regarding my own experience, from the first moment I was saved, my life was changed. My dad said, it's great to see you off drugs, but we don't believe this.

Once he saw I was serious, introduced me to the local rabbi.

So even though I was not raised in a religious Jewish home, I was Bar Mitzford, but as you know, I was not raised in a religious Jewish home. I was instantly challenged about what it means to be Jewish. And follow Jesus. And even though in the Italian Pentecostal church I was raised in, there was no consciousness of Jesus as Yeshua or the consciousness of Messianic Jews who are Torah observant and also believe Jesus is the Messiah. Such concepts didn't exist in our world.

But I was instantly. challenged by you're a Jew and what that means, instantly challenged to start learning Hebrew and then learn more about background and tradition.

So for me, what it's meant is a deeper and deeper solidarity with my people, coming to faith in Jesus has created a far, far greater consciousness of being Jewish than I had before. It has created a far greater attachment in me to our people and even to our traditions, even though I disagree with the binding nature. Of those traditions.

So, in that regard, it's deepened and enriched my faith in life and broken my heart all the more for the lost sheep of the house of Israel to come to know Jesus their Messiah. It's often a consuming thing in my life, but that's been something that's just been with me. in different measure all these years in the Lord and increasing, intensifying at certain seasons. Hey, thank you, sir, for the call. We'll be right back with a special guest.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome, welcome to the line of fire, 866-348-7884. That music tells you it's thoroughly Jewish Thursday. All right, I'm about to have a very interesting conversation with Rabbi Asher Mesa. Very interesting background. You could say that he and I kind of passed each other in the midst of our journeys and come out on very different sides, and yet with some areas of interesting commonality.

Rabbi Mesa, welcome back to the line of fire. Hello, Dr. Brown. It's very nice to be with you again.

Well, thanks, sir. Hey, if we could just take a minute. If you could share your background, the very short version of the story, is it true that you were originally a Baptist preacher? Yes, I was. I attended Jacksonville Baptist Theological Seminary.

Um And about eighteen years ago, I converted to Judaism. And that's The mission of my organization, I mean, I run a website as you know called bejewish.org. and its parent organization toward Judaism International that encourages everyone to consider becoming fully Jewish.

Okay, so you're not encouraging Gentiles to live by the so-called seven laws of Noah. You are doing the same as I'm doing, going into all the world and encouraging everyone to become full-fledged followers of Jesus. you are encouraging Gentiles to become completely Jewish, to convert to Judaism. to convert to a formal conversion.

Now according to Jewish law, every Gentile Is already a ben or a bat Noach, a ch a son or a daughter of Noach, there's nothing really for them to accept. The big debate in the Jewish world is if Christians fall under that rubric. Being that Christians consider or many Christians consider Yeshua God himself.

So some Mainly built off the opinions of the Rambam Peach, that that in itself is a form of idolatry. I have a different opinion on that. I mean, I think. That a Gentile believer in Yeshua does keep the seven laws. I mean, I don't believe.

They fall under the rubric of heretics or idolaters. I think I sent you a video detailing that. A few days ago. Uh but no, I don't encourage them to keep the similar laws because That's what they're bound to already. And really, I think that the Noite movement belongs in the Bronze Age.

All right, so Uh Yeah, go ahead.

So um well, Taylor, h hold on to that thought for a moment. Just your own background.

So you were not raised in the Jewish home. You're you're raised in a Christian home. And you went to Jackson Theological Seminary. Right? My father's a Catholic and my mother's a Protestant and um I grew up In the church, in the Baptist Church in South Florida, And I went off I went off the path for a little bit, but I came back.

Uh when I was around seventeen. And I hopped right into it like I do with most things in my life. And I went to seminary and I learned as much as I could, but there were just some.

Something didn't sit right with me. uh the whole notion that someone needs these tool accept the Messiah to be saved and Specifically Is she wants to be saved? And I pose this question to many of my teachers, and I typically got the same response that if you're doubting, Yeshua or scriptures that supposedly justify issue where that's the devil and he's a liar and you shouldn't listen to him. Right. Um And I did further investigation.

Now, mind you, this is 18 years ago. This is before 12 Yusinger. This is before. All the notable counter missionaries today.

Well yeah, actually, I mean Tovia had his material out uh years before that in in cassette tape form. And when I debated him years back, of course he's refused to debate me uh ever since. But when I debated him years back, he was a known entity. But basically it th we didn't have Internet And things are not maybe as readily accessible.

So you were saying you had to go on a bit of your own journey a little bit. Right. I don't really subscribe to the ideology of The Jews for Judaism Toviusinger type rabbis.

Okay. And I And I heard this message. With the last part like you spoke, this notion that we don't care about educating Gentiles. that we don't care about anyone. Who's not ethnically Jewish?

I don't think that's the message in Torah. I think that's antithetical to Torah. I think Like the Almighty tells us in Parashad Ra'. He's encouraging Israel to choose life, to choose Torah, In other words, not to remain what they were Rabbinically speaking, they would have been equivalent to no eyes, I guess, with one additional loss of circumcise and sales. But he's telling them to choose life.

In other words, by not choosing life, you'd be remaining in debt.

So uh I think Nowadays with The opportunity No yeah.

Okay. evangelical Christianity and Islam. It's kind of hard to take individual Okay. is already ethically elevated to that level and in some way offer just seven plating laws as an alternative to the rich religion and believing. Right.

The alternative to that religion is Judaism, towards Judaism. Right, right. Understood. And again, we can. Have that discussion, but just in the two minutes we have before the break here, so you went through a formal conversion to Judaism.

Yes, sir. And what kind of a conversion was it? Was it an Orthodox conversion? It was an Orthodox conversion and in North Pioneer Beach, Florida.

Okay, and then since then, your rabbinic studies, how did how did you come to have the title rabbi? I moved to Israel. And I learned in a few years she'd ultimately Asia Torah and the old city and North America and Malotafna. And I work in outreach. Uh most people don't know that uh There's programs like birthrights and many programs that are geared to bringing Jews who are unaffiliated.

to be a little more conscious of their Jewish existence.

So there's a lot of outreach programs in Jerusalem that target these individuals, to try to bring them to Torah classes, put them in yeshivas, and this and that.

So that's what I did when I was in Israel. And through my site, I mean, I received smicha. Um Actually we have a couple and I did that for a few years. I lived in Israel for about five years. And then I moved back to South Florida.

and I started doing the same thing here.

However, I started doing it with a twist. Um Apart from just encouraging non-Jews to return to Judaism, I asked a few rabbis the question, what's wrong with encouraging? Uh People who are not born Jewish. to become Jewish. And virtually every response that I received, every halafic response was like there's actually nothing wrong with doing that.

And it makes you think. And there's nothing wrong with doing that. Why haven't Jews been so eager to convert their neighbors to make enemies into friends. And uh that Really laid the foundation for my attack on Kabbalistic Judaism. I believe it's Kabbalistic Judaism.

that made Jews so And like Chabad, like the first paragraph of the Tanya teaches Is that the souls of the Jews? I'm sorry, the souls of the non-Jews are in some way irredeemable, and the soul of the Jew is elevated and actually. part of Hashem.

So, um I subscribe to a more rational type of I tell you what.

Sorry to cut you off there in the in mid-sentence. Let me just jump in. Friends listening, I'm going to translate some of that for you because Rabbi Mays is speaking with me, understanding I know the literature and the terms, but I want to translate some of this for you.

So obviously I look at Rabbi Maze as someone who needs to return. and embrace Jesus as the Messiah. He looks at me as someone misguided in other ways. We're going to continue this discussion. Stay right here.

It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRU. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks for joining us on the Line of fire today, it's Thursday Jewish Thursday. Michael Brown here speaking with Rabbi Ashur Meza. He was raised in a home, Catholic, Protestant home was in a Baptist church. went to seminary Ended up turning away from Jesus as Savior, Lord, Messiah, converting to Judaism, an Orthodox conversion to Judaism, and then getting ordained as a rabbi in Orthodox circles where he studied in Israel. And now he feels his mission.

is to convert people to Judaism. In other words, just as you and I, as followers of Jesus, want to spread the word and call everyone to turn to God and receive forgiveness and new life through Jesus the Messiah. He feels the burden to reach out to the whole world and call people to become Jewish to convert to Judaism, which again is absolutely not Mainstream Jewish approach. And if you remember, Jesus in Matthew 23 rebukes some of the religious leaders and says that you'll travel across. you know, sea and dry land to make one proselytite, one prosely one proselyte one One proselyte, right?

Sorry. And he's going to be worse than you when you're done.

So it speaks of a zeal. To win Jews to Judaism back then, something not found today.

So, Rabbi Mesa, you were saying in some of the mystical Jewish. Go ahead and Dr. Riddle.

Well, just tattoo, you just said. I would like to add that just like I did it, Anyone to convert to Judaism and be fully accepted in the Jewish people. Although Judaism does not actively proselytize today, They do accept converts, I believe, by the way. And uh Even those, I mean, there are many messianic believers who believe, like Jesus taught, that he didn't come to a bunch of but to fulfill, right? That they should also be keeping the law, and that's at least biblically.

There's a lot of the rabbinical literature out there, at least biblically, that's what it means to be a Jew. to enter into that Torah covenant to keep those laws. Yeah. Anyway, with the New Testament. What the New Testament makes clear, though, is for a Gentile that they don't have to be Be circumcised or come under the law of Moses.

But that's, again, another discussion we get into. But just to be clear on this, You you feel that its later mystical Jewish literature that is more ethnocentric. That discourages Jews from proselytizing. What about Talmudic references? that seem to say that a Gentile being a righteous Gentile is just as acceptable as the Jewish high priest, and other passages that seem to speak of Gentiles in denigrating terms as not on the same spiritual plane as Jews.

Well, there's actually three. There's a third category that you've missed there. And I'll just break them all down now.

Okay, so there's portions in the Talmud. that do speak of the notion of a righteous Gentile, but it's an ambiguous notion. In other words, some rabbis say that a righteous Gentile, right, those known as Ghisid al Mutaolam, do have a share in the world to come, and there are some that say they don't. And These references in ref uh That's ignored. Badly about Gentiles, it's typically Virtually always with speaking about idolaters, not just your average Gentile and for sure, not your righteous Gentile.

which I argue that Even Messianics fall under the rubric of righteous Gentile. Islam, I take a different approach with that just because I believe that it's a completely different religion. Uh But I'm of the belief that only because someone happens to believe that this certain individual or that certain individual is the Messiah that At least that shouldn't exclude you. Because what unites us is Torah. I mean, as long as you keep Torah, Torah should be the written law, and Torah should be the oral law.

That's what unites us his Jews.

So I mean I'm not necessarily here trying to convert you, I mean you're already Jewish or Your listeners Judaism because I feel that they're gonna be condemned if they don't convert. No. I think that it's just a great idea and I think that remaining a messianic or remaining a Christian ultimately hinders your growth. Theologically and academically. All right, well, stay right there.

We got a longer segment coming up. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

May God come and save his people, Hoshiana. comes Hosanna. in Greek. This is Michael Brown working Clearly Jewish Thursday speaking with Rabbi Asher Meza.

So Rabbi Mays, of course, you understand that I fully believe that God has fully revealed himself. through the Messiah Jesus. And that when we go away from him, then we will only go backwards, that we will go backwards spiritually, we'll go backwards theologically, we'll go backwards in terms of truth, and that God's full revelation as predicted in Hebrew scriptures. I mean, that's a statement of fancy making.

Well, it's a statement of fact in terms of my own life and everyone that I know. for 45 plus years, it's a statement of fact to me. But I say, I believe I'm just stating it. I also believe I'm sitting here in the chair. It's a statement of facts.

And as you know, I mean, till today, there is not a messianic yeshiva that compares to rabbinic yeshiva. Why is that? And I'll tell you why it is, it's because messianic yeshivas have to begin every shoe or every class. starting with Yeshua and ending with Yeshua, and this hinders your growth ultimately. Oh, no, no.

The first thing is, where does God ever equate spirituality with academic growth alone or intellectualism alone? That would be saying that someone who isn't a brilliant student can't be intimate with God, which, of course, I doubt you believe that. But in point of fact, the Shivot are endlessly discussing impractical things and traditions handed down by man as opposed to plumbing the depths of spirituality. And I could just point to the houses of prayer around the world that are 24 hours of people just seeking God and worshiping Him. We didn't see this in scripture.

I mean, even prayer. You know, prayer back then was facing Jerusalem and just meditating. I mean, apart from the introduction of. Chakras and Minclan Marav. In other words, this notion of spirituality and uber spirituality is why I Equate Messianic Judaism with Calvinistic Judaism.

I mean, it's become too heavenly good that it's not really earthly good. But I mean the point stands. But who are the ones around the world on the front? Who are the ones on the front lines, though, feeding the poor and building hospitals and building schools? It's always Christian organizations.

They always lead the way in this.

Well, that's a new phenomenon that started in this country, by the way. I mean in Europe uh Well, it's not the university.

Okay, so academically, Oxford, Cambridge, these are all the universities were started by Christians. Absolutely. And in America. They were Christians who had Hebrew. put a Hebrew notion to their theology.

It's something that didn't exist in Europe. In other words, It's that that that physical foundation that what Christians call Old Testament biblical Biblical foundation that made them ethical. Christians really weren't ethical in Europe. I mean, if you look how Christians behave in. Even today, even COP In the Arab world.

Wait, wait, so so h hang on, let if we go back to the beginning before Europe the believers were no were universally known for their ethics. They were known for their sacrificial living. They were known for forgiving their enemies. They were known for caring for the poor. They were known.

And so much of health care comes out of Christian tradition. And education comes out of Christian Judaism. And you can go back to the earliest centuries for this. If not because believers, you wouldn't consider believers today. I mean that They had very different theological backgrounds.

As a matter of fact, I think that this. Big explosion that we're seeing today with people converting to Judaism is a result of this Hebrew roots Messianic movement. In other words, it's actually helped. bring people more to Authentic Dora than the other way around. In other words, the Messianic movement has actually made more authentic Jews, real four Jews.

I mean, real four Jews philosophically. In other words, I have no problem accepting a Messianic Jew who keeps, like I said, four fully. as a brother in Torah.

However, a theologically sound towards you, the messianic movement, has catapulted the movement because you have people who've never studied rabbinic literature before Studying it, mind you, like to the prism of a Mascanic teacher, but they're realizing, you know what? We've been led astray. We have been hindered academically, and this is why these seminaries, what they call messianic Yes, do not compare. I mean Which might even make it to the first step of an authentic yeshiva in Erjus Rehab in Muncie. Right, but if you go to the far, all right, but first, I would reject a lot of what's studied there and a lot of where the emphasis is put there as off track and contrary to God's command and certainly not reaching out to the rest of the world as a light.

And I take you to the finest Christian seminaries. A lot of it's just numbers, the Messianic movement being smaller, and many Messianic Jews being part of churches and things like that. But as far as academically, I mean, Christian academics have shined, and there's no shortage of brilliant Christians. Excuse me? You just said it's contrary to God's command.

Yeah, well, to be, if you're saying, and I agree, that there's a Jewish calling to be a light to the nations, then to be sitting learning. Right, in Proverbs it says the Torah is the light and the midst of which are the candles. Right. Right, so you've got to take it out and shine it. If you're sitting in a yeshiva studying 16 hours a day, rabbinic tradition, you're not doing that.

That's one thing. The second thing is a lot of what's being studied there is adding to the tone of all studying. I mean, A lot of what right, and what do the young men do? They do not go out into all the world. But so that's what I'm saying by contrary to command.

A lot of it is.

Alright, but as far as ex look, if numbers are the test, then you should be terribly discouraged because every day more people, more people around the world, Muslims and atheists and Hindus and Buddhists and Jews, are discovering Jesus as the Messiah and being wonderfully born again and transformed in one day more than you'll see in 50 years. I mean, you wouldn't say that you solicited anything new. I mean, he just. Amplify Torah, just like the prophets did in Tanakh. But I'm not rejecting Torah.

I'm not rejecting Torah. Bringing people to a new, better life. Not the notion of someone dying for their sins and. No, that is what transforms them because it's a new birth, it's a supernatural new birth, it's not just academic study. I don't know if you can.

We know that Christians behave well because they follow a Jew who kept Torah, right? But the notion of actually having to believe in him dying and coming back again, I don't think that makes them any more ethical. It certainly does. I'm an eyewitness to it. Certainly it does because they get a new heart.

I know people that were miserable people, that were murderous people, that were treacherous people, that were filthy people, and God gave them a new heart. And that transformation is. They would all come to Torah if they were offered Torah instead of Christian. Christianity or Islam in prison wherever they accepted their new religion. In other words, it's because Jews are not out there telling this prophet.

No, of course not. Of course not. Number one, offering them live by these laws is something that they're unable to do. They need a new heart. And Jesus appearing to a Hindu saying, who is the real true God?

or appearing to someone involved in terrorist activity or appearing to a radical Muslim. And these are all people I know personally. Hang on, hang on. These are all people I know personally. That's what changed them, not giving them a set of laws.

And then God wrote his laws on their heart. I'm an eyewitness to the power of gospel transformation. that within these laws it tells us to love our neighbor as our to love the stranger I mean, it says ocean pee, which says be holy, is what I'm I believe. I mean, you say love, it's some sort of uh article and some love. No, these are ethics.

This is the foundation of ethics and this is what made Shoot though. who he became in the New Testament. In other words, an ethical individual who made the world Ethical, or the Christian world ethical, because he kept Torah.

So, all I'm saying is: hey, you know what? Cut out the middle guy and go straight to Torah, and you'll be less hindered. Because I think that eventually, although Christians are ethical nowadays, or at least for the last 200 years in this country, I think that their philosophy will eventually catch up with them.

Well, actually, the rest of the New Testament is filled with high and lofty ethics. That's the first thing. The second thing, the one you disparagely referred to as you agree. Excuse me. Is there anything ethical that could provide this?

Stem from Tor already. There's a deeper calling that goes beyond Torah in terms of the calling to love our enemies and the sacrificial love that can only be emulated because of what Messiah did. In other words, he takes everything to its highest. Possible height and builds and goes even further. After all, he's the Messiah.

We would expect him to do that. The example of love one another as I have loved you. You cannot get from Torah alone. We've got a break coming up, and then we'll get back to you on the other side of the break. But just to speak clearly here, number one, number one, The The calling love one another as I have loved you, that only comes through his self-sacrificing love.

It cannot come through Torah alone. There's nothing you will get in Torah that gets you to love one another as I have loved you because no one else laid down their lives for us the way he did. No one else like him laid down his life for us, like us. When you say get rid of the middleman, this is what I hear you saying. You're up there in a plane.

and there's somebody in a thousand-foot pit, and you're telling them, hey, I've got some great laws here. No, no. You need someone to reach down into that pit. Look, I was raised in a Jewish home.

Now, I was not traditional, but trust me, I had enough encounters with traditional Judaism over the years. That's not what saved me. That's something to transform me. That's not what convicted me of my sin. and brought me to God.

the one that you referred to as the the the guy in the middle the middle guy is the Savior of the world. And without him reaching out to us, We're lost forever. Right, back to you, sir, when we come back. Shake the nation. Change the world.

Change the world. Give us strict to always do what's right. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown.

Thanks for joining us, friends, on the line of fire, 866-34TRUTH. It's thoroughly Jewish Thursday. All right, I've got a few more minutes with Rabbi Ashur Mazer.

So Rabbi Meza, why disparage the fact that hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of millions of people that were walking in darkness, that were idol worshipers, that had no interest in God, didn't read the scriptures, they now worship the God of Israel and love the whole Bible because of Jesus the Messiah. If your interest is connecting people to the God of Israel, why not rejoice in that? Why try to pull people away from Jesus? My job is to bring people from a lower state of holiness to a higher state of holiness. And you were talking about this idea that permeates the Christian world, that in some way the God of the Old Testament is an angry.

Legalistic God and love and grace came only to the New Testament. And I mean, I think anyone who would make such a statement does not know Tanakh. But I didn't make that statement. You made it. I didn't make it.

I don't think that. I've written whole books against that concept. You make this statement, but then it's Mm-hmm. Yeah. that are vital to a Christian to believe.

That are writer to Christians to make them ethical are these notions that are outside of Torah that exist solely in the New Testament. That's why you need a New Testament because it's not why do you need a New Testament if everything ethical there could be found in. What Christians call the Old Testament. When we see Moses laying down his life, also Samson laying down his life, every prophet laying down their life. For our love of Israel, for a love for God.

I mean How many times does your show and quote the book of Psalms? In other words, You're saying that's enough not enough. No, you're saying it's not enough. You're the one with oral law. You stated that right from the start.

Without oral law, which is endless, endless, endless, endless, endless, as you know, you're saying that what God gave in writing is not enough. I'm saying what God gave in writing is he fulfilled. He said he was going to do certain things and he did them. And the New Testament records that. Every digital student will tell you that every bit of oral law is clearly considered the Rabban by the rabbis.

The rabbis will not make a distinct They don't make the mistake of following Is the The prohibition of adding to the Torah by calling their word Torah. Of course not. Of course they do. No, they don't. What do you pray?

When you light the Sabbath candles, what do you pray? Right? Yeah, if we say I shared the shot of its top, well, first of all. Right, when did God command you to, in the Torah, in the written Torah, when did God command you to light Sabbath candles? No.

God commanded us in Deuteronomy chapter 17 to heed the judges of those days. In other words, the men of No, to heed the Levitical priests in legal disputes. to heed the Levitical priests in legal disputes. That's all he said. It has nothing to do with someone commanding you.

It has nothing to do with God commanding you. They're not going to be from the right or to the left from what they instruct you. The Levitical priests who function as Israel's Supreme Court in legal debates. You know that throughout Jewish history, the Sanhedrin sat on top of the Temple Mount, even in the title of Yeshua.

So, what was this court doing there? This court was building fences around the Torah. We know that by obeying them is equivalent to obeying God himself. Exactly.

So everything in the oral law is adding to the law. In other words, whatever they say. That's why they call it rabbinic.

Okay, is it rabbinic to light the Sabbath candles? Is that Diraba Robinson? Because I think you really should know that lighting candles is not even rabbinic, it's a minak.

Now, the question you should ask me is, is it rabbinic to light Hanukkah candles, which actually doesn't. No, no, I'm asking you Sabbath candles because it says because the blessing you pray is that God commanded. Where did God come from? That blessing is not in the Mishnah. Where did God command?

Sir, this is a simple question. Where in the written Torah did God command? That's not a forbidding or blessing. All right, listen, listen, listen. I'm really doing my best to be polite, okay?

And I'm trying to ask you something.

So I'm just giving you a second to hear me, all right? Because it's just very unproductive for listeners if we're both talking at the same time. It's a really simple question. Where in the written Torah? Did God command us to light Sabbath candles?

And if it's not a divine command, why are we calling it that? That is adding to.

So that's my simple question. Where in the Torah Did he command you to light? Sabbath candles. Again, in Deuteronomy chapter 17, it commands you to heed the instructions of the judges. In legal disputes, heed the Levitical priests in a legal dispute.

This is not a legal dispute. Read Deuteronomy 17. We could read it a thousand times. It has nothing to do with lighting Sabbath candles. The king has instructed us to light Sabbath candles under the notion of Oneg Shabbat.

In the Seferi Shayau, it says that you should rejoice in the Sabbath.

Now, those are the This idea floating around among the Sadducees and even among the Karaites that one should sit in darkness on the Sabbath.

So the sages instructed that one should light a lamp. There is no blessing in the Tawmah, there's no blessing in the Mishnah. Uh It's a minarger that created this blessing.

So it's adding to the Torah. Just admit it. It's adding to the Torah and calling it a divine commandment. I'm very familiar with this notion: lotos lofa la, the lotos. No, it's one of the seven rabbinic commands that's considered to be on the same level.

I mean, it's sometimes included in the list of 613 commandments. I mean, I would like to show. I mean, please show me words in the Talmud, where is it in the Mishnah that you know. that these are the sources of missionaic literature. Right.

Now Hanukkah candles, yes. We also say in Sherka, the shadow and sogda, it's fine. It's fine. Because we have a commandment of Lo Tasur, the commandment to not estray from the rulings of the sages. But that's not what it's talking about.

It does not hear. Look at the text. If any case arises requiring decision between one kind of homicide and another, one kind of legal right and another, one kind of assault and another, any case within your town is too difficult for you, then you shall arise, go to the place that the Lord your God will choose. And there you have the Levitical priest who will judge. It's a Supreme Court.

But here's the bottom line. What you basically said is anything the rabbis tell you has divine authority because Deuteronomy 17 says follow them. And that's why God often had to. It's not talking about a Sanhedrin, Levitical priests that were installed there. But here's the bottom line, sir.

And as you notice, and Hedron stood on the Here's the bottom line. Here's the thing. If not Deuteronomy chapter 17. Here is the bottom line. It's real simple.

Often throughout our history, the governmental leaders misled us. Often throughout our history, they went in the wrong direction, and God raised up prophets. It was not a matter of follow the majority. It was a matter of follow God speaking through his prophets. And somehow, whatever it is, the hyperintellectualism.

or an emphasis on academic study and thinking that equates with holiness, gotten away from the spirit of the matter. You've gotten away. I don't know if you were ever truly born again or not only God knows, but you've gotten away from the spirit of the matter. You've gotten away from that which really matters, which is knowing God and being intimate with him. and walking in that forgiveness that comes through Yeshua.

And yes, he goes beyond what Moses or Samson or anyone did by being the perfect one. Who laid down his life for us as filthy sinners?

So, hey, listen, the door is still open for you to come home, sir. And we'll keep it open for you, praying for you. And maybe. It was the same yesterday, and it's still the same today, and it'll be the same tomorrow. And Deuteronomy 18 says that.

he doesn't raise up a profit because our leaders have let us Have led us astray, but it says because we begin to emulate the practices of the nations. That we suppose. Right, and he raised up a prophet like Moses. And Deuteronomy 34 says, No prophet like that was raised up. Where is he?

Read Acts chapter 3. It'll set the record straight. Hey, we're out of time. Thanks for calling. We're going to take you on a fascinating journey today on Thursday Jewish Thursday.

It's time for The Line of Fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and President of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

I just had a very interesting thoroughly Jewish Thursday discussion with An Orthodox Jewish rabbi who was raised in a not on a Christian home or Christian home of some level. Went to seminary. And then had questions ended up converting to Orthodox Judaism and becoming a rabbi. It has a movement to try to convert the world, in other words, Gentiles, Christians, Muslims, Hindu, doesn't matter who convert them to Judaism. And by the way, that's a controversial movement within the Jewish world as well.

But we had a very interesting conversation. You can listen to it later by going to thelineoffire.org. And if you've got a Jewish-related question for me of any kind, Hebrew related, Judaism-related, Jewish tradition-related. If You interesting observation there, Johnny. Thanks.

If you have a question about Israel today, If you have a question about Jesus being the Jewish Messiah, Jewish background to the New Testament, as long as it's Jewish-related. Glad to take your calls today. 866-366-666-666- three four eight 7884. That's 866-34TRUTH. I just want to say one thing to those of you who did listen to the conversation.

Again, you can catch it later on my website, thelineofire.org. Our great team is able to get shows online a couple of hours after the show is over.

So, my appreciation to them for their hard work and diligence to make that happen.

So, you can listen later. But for those who did, I just want to say this one thing. Um Sometimes I bring a guest on. thinking that we are just gonna have a very short talk. and ends up going much longer.

Sometimes I'm expecting to have a long talk. And it's short.

Sometimes I'm expecting to have kind of friendly interaction. And it turns into more of an aggressive debate.

Sometimes I'm expecting to have More of a debate. and it turns into friendly interaction. The call from the rabbi to head on. I I was not expecting it to have as much kind of uh uh Argumentation between us. Not blaming him.

I'm just saying I was not expecting that. I thought it would be more interactive with our differences. It ended up being more kind of pushing back and forth, which is perfectly fine. And we did interact in some depth. But I just want to say that it's not always The way you expect, and that's what happens with live broadcasts.

And that's one thing I love about live radio. I got a call from someone earlier this week, and we ended up staying on the phone for a long time. I absolutely didn't plan on it. whatsoever. But it was important and we did it.

The joy of live radio 866-348-7. 884 is the number to call with your Jewish-related questions. I do want to talk to you about a New York Times op-ed piece. Where there's a slight omission, a minor omission, just a little, little oversight, tiny little oversight from the New York Times. They fail to mention that the Palestinian writer.

who was in jail and speaking about Israeli abuses and things like that. They just failed to mention he was in jail because he was a convicted mass murderer. A slight little oversight, which then they made up for subsequently. I would say that colour is how you read things, wouldn't you? I would say that colors your attitude towards the person writing.

that you realize, ooh, the person writing is a convicted mass murderer. He wouldn't even defend himself in court because he didn't recognize Israeli sovereignty or the Israeli court system. Hmm. Actually killed a Greek Orthodox priest, mistaking him for a Jew, part of There's crimes. We'll come to that in a little while.

Right here on Thurley. Two is Thursday. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown.

Welcome to Thoroughly Jewish Thursday. Michael Brown here. WorldJewishDaily.com reports Yair Lapid, party leader of Yesh Atid, slammed the New York Times on Monday for publishing an op-ed by Palestinian terrorist and mass murderer Marwaran Barhouthi. Uh he says it is intentional deception. The column is a long rant by Barkhouti in which he makes absurd claims of abuse by Israeli authorities, slanders Israel throughout, and justifies a hunger strike he has organized.

Lapid noted that the Times byline called Barkhouti a Palestinian leader and parliamentarian. Which isn't an error, that's an intentional deception. Quote, anyone who reads the column without prior knowledge of the facts will come to the conclusion that Barghuti is a freedom fighter in prison for his views. Nothing is further from the truth. The missing part of the column is that Marwan Barhoudi is a murderer.

convicted of killing several people during the second Intifada, As Lepid notes, lying is no major obstacle for someone who's already slaughtered other human beings without compunction. Burkhouti tells horror stories about torture he underwent during Israeli investigations, says Lepid. There is no factual basis for these stories. The reality is that a convicted terrorist is inventing stories about those who imprison them, as prisoners do all over the world. Publishing the piece Lepid points out as an abdication of journalistic responsibility.

Quote, instead of saying to him as a responsible newspaper should, that if he doesn't have a shred of evidence to support his stories, then they can't be published. New York Times published them in its opinion pages, didn't even bother to explain to its readers that the author is a convicted murderer of the worst kind. Yeah, we've got some more quotes from Prime Minister Netanyahu weighed in as well. Um Yeah, we'll talk more about that. 866-348-7884.

We start in Southern California. Jim, welcome to the line of fire. Yes, hello, Doctor Brown. Appreciate you very much. Thank you.

You're welcome. In the New Testament, the epistles of believers in Christ. become co-heirs with Jesus Christ. And in the Gospels, we've got at least two instances where Jewish men came to Jesus and they asked him. What must we do to inherit Eternal life.

Could you dig into that for me a bit? That is, why did they use that particular term, inherit? And what were they expecting Jesus to say to them, or what do they want Jesus to say to them? in the sense of inheriting something. Yeah, the concept really goes back to Jewish interpretation of Leviticus chapter 18.

And it says there in verse 5, you shall therefore keep my statutes and my rules. If a person does them, he shall live by them. I am the Lord. And the rabbinic discussion was: does that mean simply? live in this world or does it mean live forever?

So the the Targum called Targum Unkelas, an Aramaic translation of the five books of Moses, it says Bechaye Alma. Eternal life, that if you live by them, that you will live forever. You'll receive everlasting life. From from that Because there's a lot about inheriting the land and things like this, now the concept of inheriting. life and then inheriting eternal life comes.

And the normal answer would be by keeping the commandments. If you keep the commandments, you will inherit eternal life. In other words, in the world to come, that's when you inherit certain things that you don't get in this world. And I can't say exactly where the concept of inherit that word came from, any one text, but certainly many other texts and concepts led to this idea of inheriting eternal life. And Jesus gives the expected answer, but he gives it in a way, for example.

In Matthew 19 with the rich young ruler, To expose that there's something lacking in this and that he needs God's grace and he needs to follow Jesus.

So Jesus says to the rich young ruler. Who asked him the question, what must I do to inherit eternal life? You know the commandments. Keep these commandments. You live by them, right?

And the man says, Well, I've kept these all my life. And Jesus says, one thing you're lacking. Sell your possessions, give to the poor. and you'll have eternal life and then and then follow me. And the man leaves him because he has many possessions.

So what's Jesus bringing out? He's bringing out his failure to keep the commandments, which is our universal estate. and his need for God's grace because it is follow me. If he was truly loving his neighbor as himself, And living out the fullness of what Torah required, he would sell some of what he had, he would give to the poor, he would be more generous. Jesus is thereby exposing a covetous heart.

But in doing so, it's not to point the guy to fleshly righteousness, it's to point him to. You need a deeper revelation of what it means to keep the commandments, and that's only going to come through following me.

So it's his way of using the law, taking it to its highest application that many people wouldn't even think about, right? You know, there is discussion in rabbinic literature about lusting with the eyes being adulterous. Your average person, though, just reading Don't Commit Adultery, would think, okay, as long as I haven't slept with my neighbor's wife, I'm good. And Jesus takes it harder. higher and says no if you lust after then you've committed adultery in your heart.

So here he's taking the commandments to a deeper level, exposing this man's sin and weakness, and saying, leave everything, follow me. That's the path to eternal life. And that is the radical new statement that the Messiah brings. Yeah. had to recognize His shortcomings.

Uh up against The Torah. Oh, would that be correct? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And Paul writes in Romans 3 that that was a purpose in God giving the Torah, that his perfect and holy law exposes our sin and it shuts every mouth.

And the history of Israel testifies to that. Because we're judged and judged and judged, we're exiled and judged, and then the temple is still not rebuilt in almost 2,000 years, and most of this time are scattered around the world. It's a constant testament to our falling short and needing a Messiah.

So that is part of the purpose of the Torah, and Jesus simply draws that out. Absolutely. So would it be safe to conclude that this man Who made the statement to Jesus? I kept all those. laws since I was a child or a young man.

Was he deceiving himself? He was and he wasn't. Of course, only God knows how he was actually living, right? Everybody becomes religious at certain points and talks religiously. But Paul says in Philippians 3 that as far as his conduct, he was blameless under the law.

And Luke 1 tells us about Zechariah and Elizabeth that they blamelessly kept the commandments. In other words, I believe that there was an outward obedience where people could live according to the law. And go through the checklist. I've observed the Sabbath, I've kept the dietary laws, I haven't made vows that I haven't kept, and check it off and say, Yeah, according to legalistic righteousness, I've been perfect. But has anyone perfectly loved God with all their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength 24/7?

Has anyone perfectly loved their neighbor as themselves? Has anyone perfectly not coveted, etc.? Obviously, not.

So in terms of the deepest and truest sense of the law, no, he hadn't been keeping the commandments. But he may have been an ethical man living in obedience to Torah laws, as many Jews are today, and yet it's those very laws that would convict them of sin. Yes, and it really strikes me after he made that Statement to Jesus, Jesus comes right back. It says that Jesus felt love for that young man.

So, what you're saying really helps me understand. why Jesus gave such a commendation to him or a feeling of love toward him because based on your explanation outwardly at least, He was really trying to honor God in his life. Would that be correct? Yeah, again, we don't know how truthfully he was speaking. but giving the benefit of the doubt saying, yeah, this is how I live.

This is how I've always lived. And Jesus saying yeah, but it goes deeper. And then regardless of that, the fact is that he was bound by his riches. He was not truly free. He could not leave everything and follow the Messiah because he was bound by earthly riches.

And that's a sad thing.

So Jesus, loving him, looks at him and says this, he cares about him. He does care about this young man who's zealous and wants to inherit eternal life. But the the cost in that sense was was greater. And of course it's a free gift that's offered. But as we know, it's a free gift that Costs us everything.

Hey, Jim, I appreciate the call and the questions and the comments. 866, excuse me, 348-7884. You've got Jewish-related questions. We've got Jewish answers for you. I'll be coming back to your calls on the other side of the break.

Yeah, if you were listening, In the first hour, Carrie, I do want to get to your call, so stay right there. If you were listening in the first hour, And have questions or comments about my conversation with Rabbi Asher Meza, then by all means, give me a call. I'm happy to comment down. I want to do it in a way that's fair because he's not here to speak for himself.

So I always do my best to be fair responding to things when a guest is not on the air with me. But we did give a good substantial chunk of time in the first hour to the conversation. Hey, I've got two new articles up today. We've got some brand new videos. Watch them, read them at thelineoffire.org.

You'll be blessed. You'll be challenged. You'll be equipped. You'll be edified as you do. Oh God of burning, cleanse.

Single flame. Say It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome to Thorley Jewish Thursday. Michael Brown here. Thanks for joining us again. Any Jewish-related questions, phone lines are open-866-3366-6666. 348-7884.

We go to Kerry in New Mexico. Thanks for joining us on the line of fire. A dot run. I I listened to your conversation that you had with Rabbi Asher. And I just I just wanted to make a comment.

Um, you were talking about how You know, that people need to have Jesus because that's how all these people's lives are changed for the better. People who are in drugs or alcohol or whatever problems they have in their life. And you were saying that. that changes their life.

Well, something that I wanted to point out is that, you know, I grew up in a church. going to the Baptist church when I was a kid. And I walked away. At eighteen. and walked away from all of that.

When I came back and started studying spiritual things, I jumped straight into Judaism. And um when I started my conversion, I would say that Judaism, its teachings. Um, and just learning about Torah is what changed my life. That's what changed my life for the better. That's when I realized that God cares about every single thing that we do in our lives, from what we eat, how we dress.

how we treat other people, charity, those different things. That is not something that I was taught as a child in the Christian church. In the Christian church, they teach you that you cannot keep the laws. that you aren't to keep the Sabbath, that that these things are not something that we are capable of doing, which is completely contrary to Tora. Torah flat out says that we can keep his command.

He says we'll have to follow up and get. Do you love God perfectly with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, every hour of every day? I would say, yes. I mean, I You really think so? I know Yeah.

And I cannot think of the source. I know that it says that we can keep his commands. The source where it says that we don't have to go up and get something or have something brought down. It's about difficulty. Right, Deuteronomy the 30th chapter.

I'm simply asking you: why do we constantly fail them? Why does the same Torah predict? What does Moses say in the Torah? that you've been totally rebellious in my day and it's only going to be worse after I die. And here's a song of witness to sing against yourselves, testifying that you're evil.

Why does the Torah say in Genesis the 8th chapter that the thoughts of human hearts are only evil continually? from our youth, which is why God has not brought multiple floods, otherwise he'd have to destroy the world over and over and over and over and over again. But doesn't that bring us back to the same choice that God gave us? He said, choose life so that you can live. And that's why he sent the Messiah, because we all fall short.

That's why we've been in Why have we been in exile? I had an Orthodox rabbi tell me that if you go back the days before Reform Judaism, so you go back a few hundred years, the vast majority of Jews around the world were religious Jews, Torah observant Jews. Why are we still in exile under God's wrath? Why when you had so many observant Jews in the first century of this era was the temple destroyed as divine judgment because of our wickedness? And why has it been destroyed all these many centuries?

Why are the ten northern tribes largely scattered and lost to history? Why have we been in exile and judgment so much of the time? Because we constantly fall short. That's the reality. If you want to trust in your own righteousness, go ahead.

But I put my life against your life any hour of the day in terms of how I live and the ethics by which I live in the sight of God. I gladly compare it. But I am absolutely not depending on my righteousness, Carrie, not for a split second, because I know I fall short. And that's why we have an atonement system. That uh on Yom Kippur, do you confess Lots of sins on Yom Kippur.

Yeah. I mean you generally can Yeah. Oh, okay, so then you're not that perfect. then you're not that perfect. Oh.

Because I do confess from my heart that, and I do, I'm actually repentant for what I've done over there. You're saying. You're saying I'm not that perfect. What do you mean? Why are if you are so righteous, if you love God perfectly, 24-7, then why are you confessing all kinds of ugly sins on Yom Kippur?

I see.

Well, I'm not saying that I'm not saying that mercy doesn't have to be given. I know that mercy does have to be given. I know that. But we can see that mercy is given multiple times throughout the Sanaq as well. I mean, even for Israel, where God at first is is saying that He's going to destroy them, but then He says that He's merciful towards them, that that He won't bring that destruction.

I mean, But he's not giving us what we deserve, but that's why there's an atonement system, and that's why throughout the scriptures, God prepared us for the coming of the Messiah. We need a mediator. We need an intercessor. We had the high priest, we had the sacrificial system, either we don't have it and we're in real trouble. Because the temple being destroyed means the nation is under divine judgment.

Or God provided a better way like he promised. and sent the Messiah to die for us. And Carrie, I can assure you. The people being transformed all around the world, if it was a matter of getting them to study Judaism and convert to Judaism, they've long since been dead. It's only God's mercy through Jesus the Messiah that's changed them.

And what I'd say is that you were raised in a church without ever really knowing God. If you had truly known him, you would have understood that it's not just a matter of Sabbath observance of what you eat, it's a matter of every last thought that you think is important to God. That the very that the hairs of your head are are numbered. No, but I'm saying as a follower of Jesus. you would have realized that we're supposed to go way beyond what the law requires.

in terms of what God expects of us. That that that that that it's not an ethic that you just keep the laws. It's saying go way beyond that. But what what I'm still not following though is I appreciate that you had a positive experience with Judaism. But where's Where's the mercy coming from?

Where's the atonement coming from? The whole system God established in the Torah isn't there unless the Messiah came.

So Are you just hoping that God will be nice to you? Yeah. Well, I I think I think that Our prayers, our repentance, I mean Actually making sure actually actually turning and heading to Yeah. You know, his commands and his instructions and doing it and not just saying it, that it's in that it's an action. I mean, if he actually sees that.

that our intentions are are for good, that our intentions are right. And I mean, I think Of course we are. Why is there an atonement system? But why is there an atonement system? Why in the Day of Atonement were there blood sacrifices and and specific rituals to be carried out and sin transferred to an innocent victim that would then carry it away?

you know, animal sacrifice. Why was this done if repentance was enough? And do you really want to stand before a perfectly holy God and say, I've repented really well? Look at how well I'm doing. I'm really going in the right direction.

What about when God shows you that your motive was pride? What about when God shows you that you're trusting in your own righteousness? What about when God shows you that you haven't had sufficient love for your neighbor? What about when God exposes covetous thoughts in you, and you think, well, I'm just going to have to keep repenting? that you know it's like it it's it's like dusting off a floor only to realize that that it's a dirt floor And that's the condition of our hearts.

So I I've got a break coming up here, but Think about my question for a minute, all right? What are you doing for atonement of sins? The blood sacrifices, the priesthood, the whole intermediary thing is not there. I say the Messiah came just on schedule. and died for our sins?

so that we could be made righteous in God's sight. Do you have a better answer? It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRU. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks so much for joining us on this. Thoroughly Jewish. Thursday. We've had some very interesting conversations on the broadcast today. And I want to take you into a conversation that I am having.

with a woman who was raised in a Baptist home. I don't know that she ever had what you would call a born-again experience. Did not find her Baptist faith helpful. Then she converted to Judaism and by learning the laws of the Torah, said that that is what has helped her to grow and become an ethical person.

So my question is And this is Carrie in New Mexico. Carrie, where you fall short, and we all do, you say that we repent, and it has to be genuine. But in ancient Israel, repentance alone was never enough. there was repentance and blood atonement. The Day of Atonement centered around animal sacrifices and priestly intercession.

And now the temple has been destroyed almost 2,000 years. I say the Messiah came on schedule. He had to come before the second temple was destroyed. And die for our sins, as Prophet said in Isaiah 53 and elsewhere. Die for our sins.

And through that, We receive forgiveness, we receive a new heart. And now, coupled with repentance, we receive new life and salvation. What are you doing for atonement since you don't have the atonement system that God requires?

Okay, so I mean, I know the way that we receive atonement is through prayer. And through charity or just changing our actions is a big thing, but prayer is a lot of the way that we receive forgiveness. And I don't think that's. Very different than how Daniel also received forgiveness. There was no temple standing, and so all that time that the temple wasn't standing, the people were still praying to God.

They were still. um being repentant to God and And so we have to ask, I mean, how did they receive forgiveness?

Well, where does it say they receive forgiveness? Where does it say they receive forgiveness? I mean, specifically, straight out, I don't know. I'm not a rabbi, so but it doesn't say that. It doesn't say they receive forgiveness.

Daniel 9, he's ashamed. He's grieved. He says we've sinned, and that's when God reveals to him. the the work of the Messiah. who would die before the second temple was destroyed.

and bring us forgiveness. That's God's answer, is is the Messiah. Uh so number one, it doesn't say that that But does Daniel actually say that Messiah will bring forgiveness? Because I mean, if you're not. He's in prayer.

Uh with fasting and sackcloth and ashes. And he says, O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, we have sinned and done wrong and acted wickedly and rebelled, turning aside from your commandments and rules. We have not listened to your servants, the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land. To you, O Lord, belongs righteousness, but to us open shame, as at this day to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to all Israel, those who are near and those who are far away, and all the lands to which we have driven them, because of the treachery that they have committed against you. To us, O Lord, belongs open shame to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against you.

To the Lord our God belongs mercy and forgiveness. We have rebelled against him.

So he's praying for mercy, and he's saying, We're guilty. All this calamity has come upon us because we're guilty. We're in exile. And he's asking God. To turn away from his wrath and to bring them back to the land, to resettle them.

And what does God answer him? The angel comes with an answer. 70 weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring an everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. And this is what we now understand, that the Messiah must come and die for our sins before the second temple is destroyed, atone for iniquity. This is how it happens.

We reject that. We reject mercy. It's fire we want, for fire we want. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 Truth. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Meanwhile Welcome back to Thoroughly Jewish Thursday, 86634TRUTH. All right, so Carrie, help me understand something. I can show you clearly by the Hebrew scriptures that Jesus is the promised Messiah. And that through him We receive mercy. a new life.

Why reject God's mercy, especially when he laid it out? in the Hebrew Bible. Why reject that? Why say I'm going to do it on my own?

Well, I I think I I know that you say that you can show that. in there that you can show that in those passages. And I think I know the passages that you're going to go to, but I think there's multiple interpretations for those passages. And the biggest thing that I have an issue with With your understanding of the Messiah that you believe is Messiah, is mainly with you saying that he's got. That he is God himself, that because I know that God is not a man, that we are not allowed to lift up a human being and then call him God and worship him.

That Okay. Absolutely forbidden in the Torah. And so. But what if God appears as a human being, like he does sometimes in the Bible, in the Torah itself? Do you reject Torah then?

Now, isn't those also those instances in which you're saying that he appeared as a human being? I mean, isn't that also? subjective as far as your interpretation of of those Saying that this was God Himself. Tell you what, it's subjective that I'm talking to Carrie in New Mexico. I might interpret this that I'm talking to Boris in Russia.

I might interpret this that I'm talking to Jose in Mexico, not New Mexico.

So you know it no in terms of the plain sense Yeah, you can interpret anything differently. You could say that Daniel was an alien. You can come up with anything you want. But no, the plain sense of the passage. is that Yahweh at times appeared in human form in the Hebrew Bible.

and that he's infinite, he's beyond our understanding. And he's not a man, of course he's not a man, but the eternal God who fills heaven and earth also sits enthroned. How do we figure that out? Why is he localized if he fills heaven and earth? And then sometimes he appears in human form and people actually see him.

or wash his feet or feed him and he sits and eats with him. I mean, this actually happens.

Now, I could say that what the Bible is saying, it doesn't mean. I could say that what the Bible's saying is the words have other meanings, but then at that point, then the sky is the limit. Right. In words, when I say 1 plus 1 is 2, what I actually mean is get on a plane and go to Arizona. No, so then words no longer have meaning.

So this is what the Bible tells us.

So were the one eternal God sat enthroned in heaven. fills the universe with his presence, and at times comes down and lives among us, sometimes for a few hours, sometimes, in this case, for a few years. Why why can't he do that? I'm only worshiping God. I don't worship a man.

I only worship God. I I don't know. I I guess that's my biggest issue. That's that's the thing that I have the most difficult difficulty with. I mean, it's and of course there's the other thing too that says Well, let's start here.

Jesus is the prophesied Messiah. The Messiah had to come and bring atonement to Israel before the second temple was destroyed. And it says plainly that he'd be rejected by his own people, become a light for the nations, would die for our sins, and yet rise. I can show you that plainly in Scripture.

So let's put aside his divine nature for a minute. Why not start by recognizing him as our promised Messiah? And then finding out if the Messiah is divine or not. Because there's only one Savior, God's only Savior, and ultimate glory only goes to God, so it would make sense that, in a sense, He He does this himself. But why not start with recognizing him as the Messiah?

and then put aside the question about his deity, and what we get to that secondly. But why not first accept the testimony of Scripture that the Messiah had to come die for our sins before the second temple is destroyed, and who else? did it and who else was rejected by his own people and yet became a light to the nations As God says in Isaiah 42 and Isaiah 49, that his salvation might go to the ends of the world. That's I mean who else is that Why not start by accepting God's mercy through him? As it says in Isaiah 53, all of us, you and they, all of us, like sheep have gone astray.

Each one turned to his own way, yet the Lord has laid on him, who, the Messiah, the guilt of all of us. By his wounds, we're healed. We thought he was dying for his sins. He was actually dying for our sins. Why not accept that first?

And then... wrestle with the other issues about his divine nature and see what scripture actually says. Why not start there?

So Isaiah 53.

Now, if you go back to, and I'm sure you've heard all these arguments before, but going back to Isaiah 52 or looking at Isaiah 54, in context, It's it's Israel, is it not? It can't be Israel, it's impossible.

So Isaiah 41 to 53. The word servant occurs 20 times.

Sometimes it's explicit, my servant Israel, like in Isaiah 41.

Sometimes it's an explicit, that it's an individual sent to Israel, like Isaiah 49. where God says that his servant is sent to regather Israel.

Sometimes it's clear to an individual like Isaiah 50 where the servant of the Lord has the hair ripped from his beard and he spat in his face.

So and when Israel is mentioned as a nation, Over and over, Israel is sinful. Israel is blind and deaf as a nation. If you just go through Isaiah 41 to 55, or 41 to 53, that exact context. Again, you'll see Eved's servant occurs 20 times there. But the servant there, servant Israel, national Israel, is deaf, dumb, blind.

Isaiah 50, God says, because of your sins, I sent you into exile.

So Israel is guilty and suffering in the nations because of its sins. Yet the servant of Isaiah 53 is not guilty. He's called righteous. It says he's done nothing wrong. No deceit is on his lips.

No guile. And yet he's suffering.

So who does that refer to? It can't refer to the nation of Israel because the nation of Israel is guilty. It would be like if you go to a jail. And someone just got sentenced to 10 years in prison for crimes that they confessed to committing.

Okay, they're suffering. for their own sins in prison. But this is someone who's not guilty. and suffering for the sins of the nation.

So it's referring to one within Israel. This one who fulfills the mission of Israel. Remember, Jesus himself is an Israelite. He fulfills the mission of Israel by being the perfectly righteous one who dies for our sins.

So it can't possibly, under any circumstances, refer to the nation of Israel. And remember the Torah, blessing and cursings, Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28, that if... If the nation of Israel obeyed, then we'd be the head, not the tail, and we'd be established in the land. If we disobeyed, we'd be exiled and scattered in the nations. And hence that's what happened to us throughout history.

So we're scattered in the nations because of our sins, yet the servant is suffering not for his sins, but for the sins of those who smote him. And his suffering brings them healing. Our being exiled to the nations didn't bring healing to the nations. It brought destruction to the nations.

So under no possible circumstances, if we're going to be fair to the text, can Isaiah 53 refer to the nation of Israel? It has to refer to a righteous individual within the nation.

Okay, so where is it okay though for one for one person. to be able to Suffer for the sins of everyone because isn't that the specifically what Moses was told he could not do.

Well, actually, he's not.

So in Exodus 32, when Moses says, God, blot them out of my book, if you're going to take them, then blot me out of your book. And God still brings judgment. All right. But he he does he does Hold back wrath from the rest of the nation. But where is the principle?

Well, Isaiah 53 tells us right there, there's the text that the Lord laid on him. The iniquity of all of us. You're saying that God laid on the nation of Israel the guilt of the whole world. I'm saying that God laid on one person within Israel. the guilt of the whole world.

We're saying the same thing, just disagreeing as to who the subject is. And in Numbers the 35th chapter, when the high priest When the high priest died, Even though there was no atonement for bloodshed, when the high priest died, that his death would now release the manslayer. If someone had innocently killed someone and they had to be in a city of refuge, that his death would take the place of that person and the bloodshed that they were accidentally guilty of. And the Talmud asks the question: what atones for that man, the time that he spent in the city of refuge, fleeing for his life? Or was it the death of the high priest?

It says the death of the high priest atones. Traditional Judaism says that Isaac being offered up by his father Abraham, that that was a sacrifice because of which God forgives future generations, even though he didn't actually die.

So this is certainly something taught in Judaism. In volume two of my series, Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus, and then in one of the chapters in the real kosher Jesus, I open up the Jewish teaching of the atoning power, the death of the righteous. I'm simply saying there's only one righteous enough. And that's the Messiah.

So we must repent, Carrie. In other words, I can't simply say, well, Jesus died for me. And live a godless life. No, we must repent and turn to God and say, God, forgive me, cleanse me, wash me clean. I acknowledge my sin, I acknowledge my failures, wash me clean, and give me a new heart, and thank you for paying the price for my sins.

And now we live. redeemed and changed life, but I get that. From the Hebrew Bible. All right, we've still got a couple more minutes. Stay right there.

I I I hope friends listening, you're finding this conversation fruitful. And I don't think Carrie would mind if you prayed for God to open her eyes to His truth. Who would mind praying that that believes in God? God, open our eyes to your truth and give us the courage to follow. We'll be right back.

Oh God of burning, cleansing flame. Say And the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown.

Thanks for joining us on the line of fire, 866-348-7884.

So, back to Carrie in New Mexico. I do appreciate you calling and having this interest, but what I'm struggling with is I I I understand you were raised in a Baptist home. I understand that you didn't meet and encounter God in a real way there. I understand you feel your life was helped and improved by converting to Judaism. But as I'm showing you scripture and giving you answers, I know you're not a rabbi, you're not claiming to be.

But what if I'm right? I think you have to admit that I'm raising arguments that you don't have ready responses for and that I have an answer for everything you're asking. What's stopping you? From, again, put aside the question of the deity of the Messiah and what Scripture actually says about that. But putting that aside, what's stopping you from receiving God's mercy through Jesus the Messiah?

Since He sent His Son so He could have mercy on us, why not receive that mercy?

Okay, so I think I mean I think one of the things too is that What it does talk about the Messiah, that when the Messiah comes, we will all know that he is the Messiah because it I mean it it clearly states that that even the the Gentile nations that when the Messiah reveals himself and and does the things that Asaya is supposed to do. Then even they will say, Oh, my goodness, look This is the one. The Jews were right. I mean, they had it right the whole time. Can you give me one text that says that?

I wonder isn't that Isaiah fifty two, I think? No, Isaiah 52, 13 is about this individual servant. No, fifty fifty two. 52.13 through 53.12 is talking about the Messiah. Who has believed our report or something like that?

Right, that's Israel speaking about the Messiah, who has believed our report. Exactly.

That's what we've been talking about. That's Israel talking about the Messiah, that we rejected him. And and and it cannot mean, it cannot possibly mean that at the end of the age that the Gentiles will say, oh wow, Israel was really the servant of the Lord and we got it wrong. No, the Gentile nations, according to the book of Ezekiel, will say, oh, Israel was in exile because of its own sin. That's what the Gentile nations are going to say.

Oh, Israel was in exile because of its sin. Not because of its righteousness.

So, where is there even a single text that says when the Messiah comes, he'll do this and this and this?

So, you don't even have that, it has to be interpreted.

So I'm saying, yes, when the Messiah returns, he'll establish his kingdom on the earth. Here, let me ask you a question. If if you're watching do you like any sports at all? Yeah, I like baseball.

Okay, baseball. Um, let's say, um, The New York Yankees are playing the Boston Red Sox, okay? And let's say the Yankees are really not doing well after five innings. Can the New York Mets come in and play the rest of the game for them? No.

No, so the only one that can finish the game is the team that started the game, right? Right. Okay. If we're watching a football game. that you have a really bad first half, you can't send in another team in the second half.

The only one that plays the second half is the one that plays the first half. A president can only serve two terms if they serve the first term.

So the only one who can do part two of the Messiah's mission is the one who did part one of the Messiah's mission.

So we know what had to happen before the second temple was destroyed. To repeat, the Messiah had to come, die for our sins. and rise from the dead, be rejected by his own people, and become a light to the nations? He had to do that before the second temple was destroyed.

So the only one who can possibly fulfill the other prophecies... About regathering the exiles or rebuilding the temple or establishing God's kingdom on the earth and destroying wickedness. The only way we can do. Part B is the one who did part A.

Now, does it stay in Tanakh anywhere that the Messiah will be risen from the dead? Or does it say that he will do these things in two parts? What it says is, he's going to be highly exalted, but first he's going to suffer terribly. It says he's going to suffer and die. but he's going to live on.

Yeah. It also, in one passage in Zechariah 9, says he's going to come riding on a donkey, meek and lowly. In Daniel 7, It says he's going to come in the clouds of heaven.

So the rabbis of the Talmud asked, What's it going to be? Meek and lowly riding on a donkey? Or Coming in the clouds of heaven. And the answer is, if we're righteous, he'll come in the clouds of heaven. If we're unrighteous, he'll come riding on a donkey.

But the Tanakh, the Hebrew scripture says, can be both.

So of course it's gonna be both. It's one Messiah. with two phases to his mission. Because he's not just a king, but he's a priestly king, and as a priest. He has to make atonement for our sins.

So why reject why have to In all honesty, and we're we're just about out of time. But why try to find answers to refute what I'm telling you rather than just accept God's mercy through the Messiah? And realize that you made a good shift to appreciate Judaism and its beauty and the Torah and all of that. That's positive, that's great. But you you throw out the Messiah in the meantime.

You you you just you you discovered a lovely boat, but it's it's sitting on the land. It's it's it's meant for the water and and and you threw out the ocean when you got the boat. Why not put the two together and discover the faith that God really wants you to have? I just I I don't know, I just I just need to um I don't know, I'm not a rabbi. I know you're not a rabbi, but now you're going to have to go back to the rabbis and get answers as to why I'm wrong as opposed to.

Taking the text. at face value.

So here, I want to make appeal to you, all right? And and you did call in, you called the show, so it's not like I went and and and tracked you down.

So Number number one Number number one. Uh Please recognize you need God's mercy, Carrie. on your very best day you're not as good as you think you are. We fall short of God's standards and perfection. And if he shows you selfishness that's in you, or self-righteousness that's in you.

or greed or covetousness or unforgiveness or lust or who knows what. Uh selfishness. Just failure to love God perfectly.

Well, that's the human race. You may be one of the sweetest people out there, but that's the human race. This is the human race. And And We all need mercy. Don't just go to the rabbis looking for a way to refute me.

Go to God. And say, okay, I know what Dr. Brown's saying, I know what the rabbis are saying. both using the same Bible. God, I just want to please you.

I just want to be faithful to you. Yeah, you're gonna have to eat some humble pie. Yeah, you're going to have to say, okay, I made some mistakes. But God's waiting for you in His mercy, and He hasn't let you go. If you are 100% sure you wouldn't be struggling during this call.

I'm praying for you. I ask our listeners to pray for Carrie. Open your heart to God. and then just get alone. and take out your Bible.

Just get alone. Isaiah 52:13 to 53:12. All right. Just get alone. Please, would you do that?

Get alone with God. Get on your knees like the prophets of old or like Daniel did or Solomon did in the Tanakh. Just get alone, get on your knees, read it out loud, and seek out who's to speak you about. And if you recognize it's Jesus the Messiah, say, God, I believe. It's going to be the first step.

towards eternal life. for you. Thanks friends for being part of a special broadcast today.