When Ben & Jerry's Joined the Anti-Israel Crowd

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks, friends, for joining us on this thoroughly Jewish Thursday.

My delight to be with you. 866-34-TRUTH, 866-34-87-884 is the number to call with any Jewish-related questions of any kind. I do want to catch up with something in the news today that relates to Israel, relates to the Ben & Jerry's ice cream company. I'll do that in a moment, but I announced to you a couple of weeks ago that after a several-year process of translation and printing and meticulous work to get it done, the Real Kosher Jesus is now available in Hebrew and we are working with different organizations within Israel to get it distributed to Jewish seekers, to non-believers, to get it into their hands.

So, I picked it up and started rereading it. Now, if you know the origin or history of the book, I wrote the book in response to Rabbi Shmueli's Kosher Jesus. When we had done debates over the years, he explained what his position was that Jesus was not a false messiah, he was a failed messiah. Rabbi Shmueli followed the writings of Rabbi Hayyim Maccabee or scholar Hayyim Maccabee, Professor Maccabee, and felt that Jesus was a freedom fighter against Rome, that the New Testament had been rewritten largely in the image of Paul's theology and changed things. Obviously, I categorically reject those theses, but this is what Rabbi Shmueli held to passionately. He felt this is a way, a bridge for Jewish people to appreciate Jesus and esteem Jesus and appreciate some of his teaching but get rid of this later church, Pauline, Jesus, etc.

So, in his mind, it was a way to bring Jews and Christians together and get a healthy appreciation for Jesus as a great teacher and rabbi. And obviously, I said, hey, step in the right direction but with very false and wrong premises and foundations. So, when his book was coming out, he really wanted me to endorse it. And I'm thinking, well, how can I endorse it when I have such profound differences? But we talked back and forth.

I said, well, how's this? And my endorsement was basically this. You know, while having profound differences with his rejection of Jesus as Messiah and his radical reconstruction of the New Testament, I really appreciate an Orthodox rabbi recognizing Jesus as an Orthodox rabbi. And we could say that this book is America's most famous rabbi meets the most famous rabbi of all time. So, Shmueli really liked the endorsement, used it. We were going to do some debates around the time his book came out.

He was going to do a major launch in Israel and America. And one night, I was in prayer. It was late at night. I was praying by the side of a bed in a room I used in the house to pray and get a loan and had my laptop out on the bed. I was praying and I just said, shut everything out. It's like 2 30 in the morning. Shut the laptop.

Get on your face. So, I got tremendously gripped with a burden to write. I thought at that moment, a substantial article reviewing Shmueli's book, critiquing it in depth, talking about our own debating history, you know, so a substantial piece I was going to write. I woke up the next morning.

I knew, no, no, it's all over me. You got to write a book, got to write a whole book, a book that'll be a standalone book, a book that'll be an outreach tool to our Jewish people. So, I got stirred, ended up connecting with a publisher that caught the burden. And what's extraordinary about it is from the day I started writing the first page to the day that the hardcover volume was in my hands was just under 10 weeks.

I mean, this just doesn't happen. I'm talking about a serious book with 450 endnotes. But I remember feeling like I was getting carried as I wrote. I remember feeling like I was on a journey of discovery of what insight am I going to get next from the word or what Jewish reference is going to come back to mind or what volume I'm going to find in my library.

Just like this, I felt carried on this journey. And then, for the publisher to do it, you have to understand, they have strict timetables because they have a certain number of editors, they have publicists, they have proofreaders, they have all these different things. They're working with bookstores, who's going to get this book this, which department's going to work on this.

So, when you crash the system, basically come in with a whole different project from out of the blue, it puts tension on everything. And they gave me strict guidelines and deadlines. They said, look, we must have, to get this out on time, we must have the manuscript, the finished manuscript from you. On this morning, when we say Friday, we don't mean Friday midnight because that would be Friday for me by the end of the night. No, no, we need it first thing in the morning because editors have to start working on it. And then, you have time to fill in all the endnotes. And I remember the last day of doing endnote editing, got home from my radio program at 4.30 in the afternoon and edited the endnotes until 4.30 in the morning.

It's basically 12 hours of work to finish filling in all the gaps, got it done. And then the book came out, and God's used it. We've had some wonderful testimonies, probably the most meaningful and memorable. Ron from Canada, if you're listening, was a dear Jewish brother, his mother at 97 years old. That was the thing that gave her the validation she needed, 97-year-old Jewish mother in the nursing home to become a believer. And she then used the Real Coaster Jesus to help evangelize the other elderly folks in the nursing home before she went home to be with the Lord.

So it's out in Hebrew now, but I told you that whole story to tell you also that I wrote it so quickly and was so gripped in writing it. It's almost like I was watching it happen. You've ever had an experience like that? You're so gripped, you're so moved by something. Or it could just be, you know, something you've done athletically, or something you've done musically, or something you've done to rescue somebody, where you're kind of watching yourself do it as it happens.

That's kind of what happened. So as I was going back and just reading some of it, I thought, wow, I'm so excited that this material, because I really feel the Lord helped me write it. And of course it's truth, is really going to minister to an Israeli audience, both secular Jews and religious Jews.

So do pray with me. We've got more and more material out in Hebrew, some in written form, some in audio or video form, with either captions as I'm speaking, or other Israelis taking my words and then putting them out in their own words in Hebrew, or actually transcribing my words and putting them out in Hebrew. More and more material getting out in Hebrew. So pray with us that the Lord would really use this to help reach the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And those that want to support our Jewish outreach, what we do by God's grace, is unique. It does help equip so many others in Jewish ministry around the world, and help reach religious Jews and secular Jews with the good news. So if you want to help us bring the gospel to the Jew first, go to my website askdrbrown.org.

Askdrbrown.org. Click donate. It was through generous donations of folks just like you that we were able to to get the Real Coastal Jesus Project done in Israel.

Of course, as soon as that's done, then we we want to work on the next one, another book to get out there, and then more and more video material, etc. in Hebrew. If you're watching online on YouTube, there's a dollar sign at the bottom of the chat box. You can just click on that, and you can give through that.

Or Facebook, there's a donate button. So large or small, every gift is appreciated. Sometimes a small gift is very large for you because of your own situation. So we appreciate it, and it all goes for a wonderfully good cause. Just think of that, of the joy that we'll have of knowing when we meet people in the world to come in God's eternal heavenly kingdom, and your prayer made a difference. Or you were the one that they saw a difference in your life at work, and it got them wondering, and then someone else preached the gospel to them, and you never even heard the story because you moved after that, and only years later found out, no, you were part of it.

Or you gave to our ministry, and that helped us get material to someone in Israel, and as a result of that, they were born again. We all get to share in this together. So thank you for your participation with us. It's very sacred.

We take it as very sacred. 866-34-TRUTH. Okay, so Thoroughly Jewish Thursday. Let me just get my screen up from my phone calls here. Okay, we will go to the phones a little while, but first Ben & Jerry's. So let's check out this tweet from Ben & Jerry's.

This came out earlier this week. Ben & Jerry's will end sales of our ice cream in the occupied Palestinian territory. Then they have a full statement, right?

So that's what they tweeted out July 19th. So occupied Palestinian territory, they're referring to what you say is West Bank and Gaza, although to many pro-Palestinian activists, or say a group like Hamas, all of Israel is occupied Palestinian territory. All of Israel is stolen ground. That's how they would look at it, but Ben & Jerry's is famously, quote, woke, progressive, and you'll almost always see that those that take the radical liberal stand and embrace the radical liberal talking points will also turn anti-Israel.

It's virtually inevitable. Let's look at their longer statement. We believe it is inconsistent with our values for Ben & Jerry's ice cream to be sold in the occupied Palestinian territory, OPT.

We also hear and recognize the concerns shared with us by our fans and trusted partners. We have a long-standing partnership with our licensee who manufactures Ben & Jerry's ice cream in Israel and distributes it in the region. We have been working to change this, and so we have informed our licensee that we will not renew the license agreement when it expires at the end of next year, although Ben & Jerry's will no longer be sold in the OPT. We will still stay in Israel through a different arrangement.

We will share an update on this as soon as we're ready. Okay, so number one, the announcement is ambiguous. It's ultimately been interpreted to mean that they will not sell the ice cream in the, quote, illegal Jewish settlements in the West Bank. Of course, there's no such thing in Gaza.

It could not happen. So that would be the general understanding. If it means more broadly, quote, the occupied Palestinian territory, then Palestinians in general can't get the ice cream.

But why, pray tell? Is Ben & Jerry's selling ice cream within Israel? This, to me, and I've written an article about it, is utterly incoherent and completely contradictory, because if, after all, if the evil Israelis, the evil apartheid state, the oppressive Israelis, if they are the bad guys doing the terrible things, why are you selling them your ice cream? If, hey, the whole nation's on stolen ground, according to the critics. Hey, the whole nation's apartheid. Hey, the whole nation's guilty of genocide and ethnic cleansing, according to the critics. So why on earth are you selling your ice cream to Israel proper, but not within the so-called occupied Palestinian territory?

So the whole thing is utterly incoherent and inconsistent. We come back. I will tell you how Prime Minister Netanyahu, former Prime Minister Netanyahu, responded, current Prime Minister Naftali Bennett, how the BDS movement, to whom Ben & Jerry's has capitulated, how they responded, and further hypocrisy of Ben & Jerry's. And then we'll get you your Jewish-related call. Stay right here. Welcome, welcome to Thoroughly Jewish Thursday.

This is Michael Brown, delighted to be with you. 866-3-4-Truth, 866-3-4-8-7-8-8-4 is the number to call with any Jewish-related question of any kind. Okay, before I go to the phones, which is going to be very shortly, how did Prime Minister, former Prime Minister Netanyahu, respond to the Ben & Jerry's announcement? This is what he tweeted, and obviously straight to the point. Now we Israelis know which ice cream not to buy.

Uh-huh. So yeah, you're going to sell to Israel, but we're not going to buy it. And perhaps we Jews worldwide might get that by deduction, know which ice cream not to buy. And then current Prime Minister Naftali Bennett, among other things, he said, you know, we're going to fight this and push back against it. He said there are many ice cream flavors to choose from, paraphrase, there's only one Jewish state. Many ice creams, only one Jewish state.

We know where our solidarity lies. Now for the BDS movement, which is Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions of Israel, they have three demands, fundamental demands. Number one, take down the separation barrier. So it's 95% fence, 5% wall, the wall primarily there to keep snipers out, but all there to keep murderous terrorists out. Remove that.

Remove that. And it's been tremendously effective, by the way, in reducing terror attacks. Remove that, because it does cut right through Palestinian neighborhoods, et cetera. Second thing is go back to pre-1967 borders, which are suicidal.

It's that simple. Suicidal in terms of any possible ability to keep the nation safe. The number three, allow for all Palestinian refugees to return. Now you have to understand that the quote refugee situation with Israel is different than any refugee situation anywhere in the world. Because you're talking about, going back to 1948, people displaced there or their children or their grandchildren and all of the families that have since grown from there, which has now multiplied millions of people, that they now somehow have a right to return, which is totally contrary to the way everything's ever happened with refugees through modern history, which is you're displaced by war, you resettle.

And remember, many of them left because their own leaders tell them to leave. As many Israeli leaders were saying, stay, we're neighbors, we can work together, there's room for everybody. Many Palestinian leaders were saying, leave, flee, get out, because it can and can't distinguish between the Jew and an Arab. Once we drive the Jews into the sea, you can come back to your homes, your lands, your businesses.

Of course, that never happened. Obviously, the Jews were not driven into the sea. So the so-called refugee crisis is one largely created by the Palestinian leadership or the Muslim Arab leadership. And since the 1950s, the Arab League of Nations has said we won't repatriate the Palestinians. So if they are refugees, then they have to stay in refugee status. They don't just become regular citizens of our country, etc.

This has been an ongoing problem. So you have this unique thing, even in places like, quote, the West Bank, so Judea, Samaria. You have Palestinian refugee camps among the Palestinians.

You can go into Lebanon, Syria, so Arab nations, and there are Palestinian refugee camps there. What's that got to do with Israel? How is that Israel's fault?

Obviously, it's not. These are choices that these nations and peoples have made. So in any case, the demands of the BDS movement, if met, would mean the end of Israel.

That's the reality. It would mean the end of Israel as a nation. How did they respond to this announcement? Let's take a look at their official statement. Following years of BDS campaigns, Ben & Jerry's has announced it will end sales of its ice cream in Israel's illegal settlements on stolen Palestinian land.

Again, to be consistent, all of Israel, the entire nation of Israel, is on stolen Palestinian land, according to this logic. We warmly welcome their decision, but call on Ben & Jerry's to end all operations in apartheid Israel. In other words, good step in the right direction, but why are you still selling ice cream to Israel in general?

Of course, you've got to be consistent. What Ben & Jerry's did is as incoherent and inconsistent as it is hypocritical, as you'll see in a moment. And they go on with the statement, Ben & Jerry's, a leading socially responsible international company, is finally bringing its policy on Israel's regime of oppression against Palestinians in line with its progressive positions on Black Lives Matter and other social justice struggles. We hope Ben & Jerry's has understood that in harmony with its social justice commitments. There can be no business as usual with apartheid Israel. So you've got to damn Israel as a whole and cut off any business dealings with Israel as a whole. That's the whole BDS, Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions movement.

Okay. There's an article in the Washington Free Beacon that points out the degree of hypocrisy in Ben & Jerry's position. You know, just like different NBA leaders getting all exercised over injustice in America. And whether it's injustice in America, let's address it. And when Israel treats the Palestinians unfairly, let's address it. I'm all for all of that.

Absolutely. But let's not be hypocritical. First, let's not exaggerate things.

Let's be accurate. And then don't tell me you're in bed with China and working with them actively and promoting yourself over there and making a pretty penny from China, but you're going to get outraged over injustices in other parts of the world. That's downright hypocrisy. So let's look at this statement from the article, Washington Free Beacon, BDS and Jerry's, the woke ice cream company veers into antisemitism. Let's scroll down into that article and see what they actually point out.

All right. So in the article, they say this. We're not clear how exactly removing Ben & Jerry's ice cream from grocery stores in the West Bank will benefit the Palestinians.

The move appears to be primarily an act of guerrilla theater and a demonstration of base prejudice. The most common expression of antisemitism on the left is the application of double standards to Jews and the Jewish state. Look no further than Ben & Jerry's partnership with Unilever, which acquired the ice cream company in 2000. There is no comparison between Israeli policy in the West Bank and the practices of the world's greatest human rights abusers. Unilever happily does business everywhere from occupied Northern Cyprus to occupied Tibet and Xinjiang, home to the Uyghur concentration camps. We won't hold our breath for the ice cream boycott of China or Russia, but hey, there are no Jews in Xinjiang, however you pronounce that.

Yeah, and that's the bottom line. The social justice movement, the moment the thing rises up and begins to point out injustice here, here, here, and again, where there is legitimate injustice, we share this followers of Jesus be on the front lines of addressing it and seeking to write it, okay? And where there's exaggeration and where there are false claims, we should be on the front lines exposing it. But I was so impressed by the fact that I was saying the moment I saw cities on fire and things happening in America, Jews are next. Jews are going to get blamed somehow. This is going to happen. That's why it was no surprise during some of the BLM riots last year in LA that synagogues were vandalized and there were swastikas and things like that.

No surprise. And by the way, since we're a bit distant from those riots now, I want to shout from the rooftop that every black life matters. I want to shout from the rooftop that where there is injustice against my black brothers and sisters, we need to stand up together as Americans and all the more as followers of Jesus to stand for justice. And at the same time, I strongly reject the BLM movement, the ideology behind that movement, the Marxism, the queer ideology, et cetera, the various things that it stands for. So there is much corruption in the BLM organization. Well, of course, we affirm that every black life matters. But look, it's just a matter of time before the scapegoating happens.

It's just a matter of time. You watch. You watch, friends. And after this, we go to the phones. 866-34-TRUTH.

I've said it for many years because it's self-evident. You watch a denomination. It progressively questions the authority of scripture.

866-34-TRUTH. It progressively questions whether salvation is through Jesus alone. It progressively questions whether the Bible is uniquely inspired as God's word or is in any sense infallible. It begins to shift more and more in the direction of, quote, being progressive, being liberal.

And you watch what happens. It will change its view on abortion. It will know we need to fight for women's rights and protect women's rights.

And we don't really know if the baby, and it's not a baby in the womb, it's a fetus. It will shift from a pro-life to a, quote, pro-choice position. It will shift its views on marriage and sexuality. It's like clockwork.

It's going to happen. It will shift its views on marriage and sexuality. Well, it's about love. And we have men in our church, committed men. They love Jesus. They love one another. Of course, we affirm their relationships. Of course, they should be able to be in ministry. Of godly lesbian women, of course, in a committed relationship, they're married by the state. And of course, they should be in ministry.

Why not? You'll see them shift in that. And then you'll see them shift when it comes to Israel.

It's like clockwork because you get away from the foundation of scripture and the authority of God and you begin to judge things through other, see the world through other glasses and judge by other standards. So you'll shift on Israel and it'll be gradual, but then it'll become quite pronounced to, yes, Israel is evil. Israel is an apartheid state.

We should join the BDS movement. So it doesn't just say, hey, of course, we stand with Israel, recognize the Jewish people have been brought back to the land by God's sovereign hand. We see this as Israel's historic homeland.

We stand with the Jewish people and we call on the Jewish people to treat their Palestinian neighbors with justice and fairness. Okay, great. Make that statement. I'm all for that. But no, it'll shift like clockwork. And of course, Ben and Jerry's, assume this was coming.

I haven't followed their stance, but knowing their other stance, I'm surprised it took them this long to get here. All right. Soon as we come back immediately, that's my agenda. That's the next thing on my list. Go into your calls. 866-342. It's The Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into The Line of Fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks for joining us on The Line of Fire. This is Michael Brown. Welcome to Thoroughly Jewish Thursday. Thanks for holding those who've been waiting to get on the phones.

We start with Cola in Rochester Hills, Michigan. Welcome to The Line of Fire. Hey, Dr. Brown.

Praise the Lord for His goodness and mercy and prayers, and especially for His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen. Hey, Dr. Brown, I got a question for you regarding the clay and the iron mixed in Nebuchadnezzar's dream. Mm-hmm. Is there a possibility that that can be a unification, perhaps like a Europe in America being Rome, and perhaps maybe Israel being the clay and some kind of united kingdom, that last empire? Is that a possibility or is that something that's kind of... No, I'd say that's far-fetched. Now, with all respect, it's a vision and the interpretation is broad, or a dream with a broad interpretation.

In other words, it's not giving us dates and specifics. But broadly, we know it's speaking first of the Babylonian Empire, then the Medo-Persian, then the Greeks Empire, and then the Roman Empire. And the Roman Empire is what's being described there. And the beginning of the end for the Roman Empire is Jesus the Messiah. That's the little rock that comes and ultimately destroys it. So it's another reminder of the messianic era beginning to break out in the first century. But no, Rome just ends up mixed.

It's strong, but it has its human weakness to it. And I wouldn't go beyond that. I wouldn't try to speculate as to some meaning for today or Europe in America or Israel.

Definitely not. I'd go back 2,000 years and to the Roman Empire at that time, and then it's growth and it's crumbling in the centuries thereafter. Okay, because it seems to be like the kingdom that is final when the rock, or the stone, cut without hand, strikes that whole empire, kingdom, whatever it is.

Yeah, some would argue. Right, that's why I say it's far-fetched, but it's not the kind of thing you can write off categorically in terms of part of a larger meaning, in terms of the whole world today being some kind of extension of the Roman Empire. I just don't see it like that. In other words, the stone striking to me is the very beginning of the messianic mission, which continues to grow and spread. You know, so it strikes at the root of that in the Roman Empire and now continues to grow and spread as the kingdom expands around the world. So it's... Oh, okay. Right. So you're actually saying that it started 2,000 years ago, basically, right? Exactly.

The kingdom of God, too. I never thought of it like that. Right, so just... That's why it starts as a small stone, right?

Or rock. Right, okay. Right, just like the parable of the mustard seed.

It's the smallest of seeds, you know, the Palestinian culture, or Israelite culture, the smallest of seeds, and then it, you know, becomes this giant tree or, you know, a little bit of yeast that's put in the dough and it spreads through the hole. That's how I understand it. But appreciate the call, appreciate your thinking on what you're looking at. 866-34-TRUTH. Let's go to Dave in McBain, Michigan.

Welcome to the line of fire. Yeah, I believe I got through. Holy cow, what a pleasure, Dr. Brown. Great to talk to you.

Anyway, I'll make it quick. So earlier this spring I was flipping through some YouTube videos and got on this rabbi talking about the book of Ruth, and the better Redeemer than Boaz, and one of the things that he talked about in his mind, and I don't believe he was a mestionic or a believer, is that he thought that was a better picture of the coming Messiah, but I've heard kings talk about that Boaz is a picture of the coming Christ. I guess I would like some clarification on that, if you're familiar with that argument. Right, so the first thing is that traditional rabbis find many references to the Messiah in the text that Christians would not find, but they are normally homiletical. In other words, a traditional Jew reads in a Torah-centric way. So obviously, God, the God of Israel, the one true God, being the center of everything, but then he's given us Torah. So as they're studying Scripture, it's all about Torah, it's all about obedience to God, it's all about keeping his commandments. So they're thinking about Torah far more than, and daily obedience to God, and studying and understanding the law, far more than they are thinking about the Messiah. Whereas, you know, Christians are constantly reading Scripture and really reading in a Messiah-central way, looking for messianic prophecy and how it's understood. For the rabbis, however, because Messiah is also an important theme, it's largely homiletical.

It's largely kind of secondary applications and, you know, interpretive techniques to find it. So they'll find messianic prophecy in all kinds of places where we wouldn't. And I'll give you a direct answer to your question about Boaz in a moment, but I remember an Orthodox Jew from Israel had come to faith, come with his family over to Israel, spoke very little English at that time, was in one of my classes as I was teaching in our messianic Bible school in graduate school, teaching on messianic prophecy. And we're going through the Hebrew Bible, so I'm doing my best to try to bring him in on things because, you know, his English is weak and I'm trying to share what I can through Hebrew Scriptures, etc. But during the class, he's just reading through the Hebrew Bible as I'm lecturing. And then every so often, he raised his hand and point to a verse that said, Ah, Nickosheth says, El Hamashiach, I think that this is about the Messiah.

And I'd look at the verse and think, what? But in his rabbinic mind, he had a certain method of interpretation and reading and seeing things. So it wouldn't surprise me that someone, a traditional Jew, could see a messianic kind of reference there. So here's the deal about Boaz. Boaz is called the goel, so the kinsman redeemer. The Messiah himself is called the goel, the redeemer, like in Isaiah 59, 20, the goel, the redeemer will come to Zion and to those who turn away from transgression in Jacob. So the Messiah as the the redeemer, the kinsman redeemer, who plays that particular role, God himself can be Israel's goel, or the Messiah can be the goel. So because Boaz is the most famous goel in the Bible, and then directly through Ruth, ends up in the line of David, right?

It's grandson would be David, Oded, and then, excuse me, great grandson, Oded, Jesse, David. So it's not so much the specifics of what he does based on which we could say he's a type of the Messiah, he's a type of Christ. You know, you could get into that, but that to me is more homiletical. It's more that he was a goel, and he's a lesser goel to the Messiah who is the ultimate goel.

That would be, to me, the way the argument would go, just based on function, not the specifics of what they did, if that makes sense to you. Well, yeah, and he referenced a couple of things that I thought were interesting, is that he was not given a name, it's just a person, it's a mystery, and the reason why he wasn't given a name is because Christ has not, or God has not, revealed the Messiah, so there's some connection there in his mind, and then you don't hear about him, he just kind of shows up at that significant time, and in my mind it's just like, ooh, hey, that's kind of interesting, that's weird, maybe there's something there, maybe there's something to it. It kind of stuck on me for a long time and I couldn't get past it.

Yeah, I mean, it's nice, but again, to me, it's just more homiletical. I said, oh, dead. Oh, bed, of course. Oh, bed.

As I said, it's like, it's not, oh, dead. Anyway, oh, bed. So thank you for the call, I appreciate it.

You are awesome. Thank you, Dr. Brown. And, you know, here's something interesting, friends. Often people find Jewish interpretation really fascinating, and it often is, but it doesn't mean it's truthful or accurate or historically verifiable. In other words, like you're reading about somebody in the Bible, you don't know anything about them, there may be Jewish tradition that fills in stuff, just like church traditions will fill things in about past characters.

Wow, I never do. It may not be true, though. It may not be accurate. So always test to say, okay, is this just a rabbinic tradition that's been passed on?

Is there biblical substance behind it? Is it historically verifiable? If not, maybe true, maybe not. Sift it out as best as you can. But, you know, you say, wow, that's fascinating.

Yeah, but it's not necessarily true. So always, always check in that regard. All right, let us go to Patrick in Allentown, Pennsylvania. Welcome to the line of fire. Good afternoon, Dr. Brown. God bless you. God bless. I have a quick comment.

BLM and NT for nothing but new Brown shirts. I just wanted to mention that. Now to the question. In the Talmud, I've heard that there's a rabbi, I don't remember his name, was complaining that around the same year that Christ was resurrected, the sacrifice in the temple was no longer accepted by God until, all the way until the destruction of the temple in Seminary D.I.D.

Number one, is that correct? And if it is, how do the rabbis of today handle that? Right, so you're mixing a couple of concepts, but here is what's accurate.

I'm going to explain it. The Tractate Yoma, which means the day, dealing with the Day of Atonement, it deals with the customs surrounding the Day of Atonement and what happened with the high priest and how the sacrifices were offered, just all of the details. And because the high priest, it was critical that he was able to function that day, that he would be separated from wife, other relatives, lest somebody would die and body falls on you accidentally, you touch it accidentally, you're defiled, you can't participate, and just, you know, all of the other regulations and how he prepares for that day. And we know that on the Day of Atonement, there were two goats involved. There was the goat in Hebrew, La-Azazel, which is normally translated as scapegoat, based on it escaped out into the wilderness. And then there was the goat that was sacrificed and his blood was brought into the holiest place for atonement. So according to the traditions that developed later, that two lots were put in an urn, one for the Lord, one for Azazel, and the priest would reach in and take them out. If he reached in and took the one that said for the Lord with his right hand, that was a good sign that the sacrifice would be accepted.

If he grabbed it with his left hand, bad sign. Okay, so there are three signs. We'll come back to them and then I'll tell you how this ties in with the time of the death of Jesus. Stay right here. Thanks for joining us on the Line of Fire. You know, just looking at a post from Robert on Facebook, why don't they change their name to Ben and Jerry and De Fure. Listen, I do not appreciate what Ben and Jerry's has done. It's wrong spirited, but let's not compare them to Hitler, please.

We've got to be very careful or are there anything, you know, brown shirts, you know, again, I understand what people are saying, but let's be careful not to make comparisons like that because of the monstrous evil of what the Nazis did, monstrous and unprecedented. Okay, so back to the Talmud. In Tractate Yoma 39A and B, so in the normal edition of the Talmud, front side of the page, back side of the page, it said that there were three different signs by which the high priest would know and the people would know whether the sacrifices on the Day of Atonement were accepted or not. The first would be, or one of the three, when the priest would reach into the urn to take out the two lots, one with his right hand, one with his left, that if the lot in the right hand came out for the Lord, that's to go to be sacrificed in the tabernacle slash temple, that was a good sign.

If he pulled that one in the left hand, bad sign. Okay, next would be that you had the candle stand and you would start lighting it from the westmost candle over. If that one was still burning, so you've got oil, if the first one that you lit is the last one to go out, that was another sign that God had accepted the sacrifices. And then the third sign was that there would be a scarlet thread that was tied to the horn of the goat that would be sent out into the wilderness and or to the front to the front doors of the temple. And if that scarlet thread turned white, that was a sign that sins were forgiven as per Isaiah 118, that your sins be scarlet, I'll make them white as snow. Okay, so the tradition says that sometime before the days of Jesus, Shimon HaTzedek, Simeon the Righteous, could be second, third century BC, that the entire 40 years that he served as the high priest, all three signs came up positive every time.

And by the way, the tradition developed by the time of Jesus that that goat, instead of sending it to the wilderness, they'd drive it off a cliff and it would perish that way. In any case, the tradition says that those 40 years that he was the high priest, the sacrifices were always accepted obviously because of his righteous intercession. But after that, some years yes, some years no. When it was yes, the people would rejoice.

When it was no, there was a sense of shame and pain and it's not forgiven, what's wrong? Then it says this, the last 40 years before the temple was destroyed. So what years the temple destroyed? The year 70. What year does Messiah die and rise? There's debate between scholars between 30, 33. 30 has always seemed to be the right date to me based on other data. All right, even the 40-year period doesn't have to be taken as an exact 40 years, but if it is exact 40 years, it's from 30 to 70. Okay, it says that the last 40 years, the exact opposite of Shimon HaTzedek, Simeon the Righteous, the exact opposite, the last 40 years before the temple was destroyed. None of those three signs came up positive.

All three came up negative every time. The lot for the Lord was in the left hand versus the right hand. The lot for Azazel, for the goat to be sent to the wilderness, that was in the right hand. The westernmost candle, instead of going out last, would just go out normally. And the scarlet thread on the temple doors and or on the goat's horn would not turn white, it would remain red. And the people would see this and recognize their sins weren't forgiven. So Patrick, this is something that I have laid out for many, many years as an indication even within rabbinic literature.

It states Tanu Rabbanan, which is that, you know, our rabbis, our sages taught. So this is a tradition that's been passed on and that within the text is not disputed, that that is a hidden confirmation that at that point God said, no more. I've provided a better way.

No more. You've rejected the Messiah, so I'm not going to accept your sacrifices. Now, to be totally candid, traditional rabbis really take issue with me for doing that. They feel I'm using their sacred text to prove my homiletical point. They feel it's not fair to the text and I'm reading something into it and I don't accept other historical aspects of the Talmud, why should I accept that? I understand their argument and I understand it feels to them like I'm tampering with something sacred. I'm simply coming up with a logical deduction.

Isn't that striking? People say, is there any indication rabbinic literature and any proof? Well, that's something that gets my attention, that I could ask a traditional Jew, why do you think that is and could it be if that's when the Messiah died and rose, that on two levels God's saying no more to your sacrifices, no more because you've rejected the Messiah, why should I accept your sacrifices and no more because I have because I have provided a better way. So, what do the rabbis say in response? Well, they say that instead of the sacrifices we have prayer, we have other means that God already gave in the Old Testament in anticipation of the fact that we wouldn't have the sacrificial system and sacrifices were always secondary to repentance.

Those are arguments they give but of course all of them have very easy answers and responses. So, Patrick, I appreciate the call. So, again, in the Tractate Yoma in the Babylonian Talmud 39ab you get that full account. You say, hey, where could I find that? Well, let's do it together.

All right, so, Chris, if you're ready, I'm going to do this on my screen. We go to the Sephariah website. S-E-F-A-R-I-A. It is a treasure trove of Jewish literature as it says a living library of Jewish texts. Then we click on where it gives us the option with text Tanakh, so that's the Hebrew Bible, Mishnah, foundational Jewish legal documents and statements from 200 years after Jesus. Then Talmud, so we click on Talmud and then we go down to Seder Moed which is the order the mission is divided into six orders. We go down to the order of sacred days, the appointed times. We click on Yoma and then when we see it on the screen we go to Yoma and scroll down to chapter 3 which is 39a or actually chapter 4. We'll start there and there it's going to take us through the text with Hebrew and then English translation, the Stein-Schatz expanded translation and then after that it goes from Hebrew into more of an Aramaic.

So let's scroll down there a little Chris. It starts with these statements in the Mishnah and let's keep scrolling down on our screen until we get to what's called Gomorrah and there there we go. Gomorrah, so if you're reading in Hebrew it's a big G and a big M, big gimel, big mem. Gomorrah, the molly, Teroth, Peculpe, why do I need the high priest to have mixed the lots in a receptacle before he draws the lots, etc.? So what's interesting is in an expanded translation I am going to read first the translation here from Rabbi Adin Stein-Schatz, one of the great Jewish geniuses of this generation, recently deceased. Why is he going to read the whole thing?

All right this is this paragraph. Why do I need the high priest to have mixed the lots in a receptacle before he draws the lots? In order that he not be able to intentionally take the lot for God specifically with his right hand, since it is a fortuitous omen for the lot for God to arise in his right hand, there is a concern that he might force the result in contravention of the requirements that the designation of the goats be made through a random lottery. All right that's his expanded translation. What does the Aramaic actually say?

He has that in bold. Why do I mixed in order that he not, excuse me, why do I mixed a receptacle in order that he not intentionally take? That's how concisely written it is an Aramaic and that's how much it assumes a larger familiarity with the subject matter or someone teaching you.

Now the teachers are doing this in written form. So in any case we can take that off the screen for those watching, but if you ever want to look up a text and get traditional Jewish understanding, though many of these are still not translated into English so it won't help you unless you can read Hebrew or Aramaic, but many have been translated. It's a tremendous treasure trove, a great place to see what Jewish people believe in their own words, see the text for yourself, but before you try to really wrap your mind around what Talmud's saying, a lot of the arguments are complex. Many times you'll have four, five, ten, twenty varied opinions, then bringing in other subjects, tying things in with other verses, and it can be very confusing and difficult, and then you can pull something out and say well the Talmud says this and that's that's an inaccurate statement. In my book Christian Antisemitism which came out in February and thankfully people are feeling the impact of that, I have a whole chapter called the truth about the Talmud. In my book Christian Antisemitism the truth about the Talmud and there I explain that there are a lot of misunderstandings and misconceptions about the Talmud.

Do I accept the Talmud as authoritative? Of course not. I'm not a traditional Jew. Do I accept it as inspired in a unique and supernatural way? No.

If I did I'd be a traditional Jew. Do I find much beauty and wisdom in it? Yes. Do I find much legalism and convoluted legal discussion? Yes. Do I find some disturbing traditions? Yes. It's a massive work mixed in many ways but let's be fair with it as we use it. Alright friends special broadcast coming your way tomorrow where we're going to answer your Bible translation questions. Be blessed. Another program powered by the Truth Network.