Is Purgatory Biblical?

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. That's 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. We are getting into the Word today. We are getting into Scripture. We are getting into theology. And I welcome your calls 866-34-TRUTH, 866-348-7884.

And I want to give you an opportunity to call, a challenge, an opportunity, however you want to look at it. If you believe that you can demonstrate the doctrine of purgatory, that some Christians will go through a period of purging, of suffering in a redemptive way after death before being with the Lord forever and ever. If you believe in that concept and believe that you can demonstrate it's in the Bible as accepted by Protestants and Catholics alike, okay, so what we would call the 66 books of the Bible, not including the Apocrypha.

If you believe you can make that case, give me a call 866-34-TRUTH. Or conversely, if you believe that you can argue for the canonicity of 2 Maccabees and why we should take the testimony of 2 Maccabees to point to purgatory, you can give me a call 866-34-TRUTH is the number to call. If you believe it's an unbiblical concept, why? On what basis do you feel it's unbiblical?

Phone lines are open. So, oh I don't know, a couple months back I was asked to come on a show that I'd been on before where one brother moderates debate shows online and I was asked by a Catholic apologist to debate a particular subject, I forget what the subject was, it may have related to Mary or something else, but I don't know that I've done formal debates with Catholics over the years. I've had many many a discussion with Catholics over the years, friends, colleagues, strangers that I've met, the church in which I came to faith, most of the people in that church, little church, had come out of Catholicism, of Italian background had come out of Catholicism, but I've not engaged in serious academic debates with Catholics as say my friend Dr. James White has, and it was nothing at the top of my bucket list to do. But I was then asked how about debating purgatory?

So I was very specific, if we are going to debate what we all agree on as the canon of scripture, so the 39 books of the Old Testament, 27 books of the New Testament, if we will confine the debate to that, so we're just debating what scripture says on the subject, yeah so the question is not church tradition, the question is not apocryphal books, the question is just Bible, I said sure I'll do it. So I agreed to do the debate, what two weeks ago maybe, with William Albrecht. I guess I had been on his show, a show that he has with a colleague, talking about some other issues in the past, not debating but talking on areas that we have in common. In any case, when the debate began, because he affirmed the answer was yes, and the question was purgatory biblical, I was completely shocked by his presentation. So it appeared there was a massive misunderstanding. Our email chain to me was clear, to my assistant was clear, to the moderator was clear, but William did not understand it as I did. So it appears there was a massive misunderstanding.

Now you could be cynical and say no, no he just didn't play by the rules, but I take him at his word. There was a massive misunderstanding. So he came in and spent opening argument, talking a lot about what the church fathers taught, and then getting into second Maccabees and what second Maccabees taught, and then using a few verses. So when it was my time I said all right before we start, I need some clarification here, because we actually don't have a debate otherwise. After my presentation, opening statements, he was going to question me for 20 minutes, I was going to question him for 20 minutes, so cross-examination, and I said the debate is not what the church fathers believed, the debate is not what's in the Apocrypha, the debate I agreed to do is what's in the Bible. Now even if I was absolutely fluent, if I could quote every writing of every church father on every subject by memory, if I could, which I can't, if I was fully prepared to deal with any potential verses in the Apocrypha, and it's really just one passage, and that was not hard, I mean it's just one passage, I wouldn't have done it anyway because that's not what I agreed to debate. There are plenty of subjects I could move over into, but that's not what we agreed to debate. Of course I was not going to be attacked as being unprepared and so on, and so on, and if you go to the website, you know, it depends on what someone's perspective was in terms of how they responded to the debate. That's unfortunate because that's just misrepresentation. It had nothing to do with being unprepared, it had to do with what we agreed on in the debate.

It's that simple. Williams thought it was one thing, the moderator and I understood it was something very, very different. So all that being said, the passage in 2 Maccabees, there are those who say that doesn't really support purgatory either, because purgatory is not theoretically to bring a wicked person into righteousness, but rather to further purge a righteous person so they are fully ready to be in the presence of the Lord forever, right? Whereas in the passage there's prayer for idol worshipers and things like that, so some would even say that 2 Maccabees doesn't support the Catholic doctrine of purgatory, but put that aside because that's not what the debate was. You say, but what about the fact that was drilled home in the debate that the church fathers are unanimous on the subject? Well, my only response to that was, aside from the fact that's not what we're debating, search for it.

Take a look and see. Take a look and see whether the church fathers were unanimous. Were unanimous. How many actually spoke about purgatory?

How early was their consistent testimony of purgatory? How many said things that would be taken as saying something different? Now, here's the deal. If we could debate what the Bible says about certain verses, and then all the church fathers, every single one of them, all agreed on the subject, every single one from the earliest to let's say up to fourth, fifth centuries, they all taught it the same way. They all believed it the same way.

They all held to the same thing. Then that would definitely say, well, it seems like that's the way they understood it. That's what was passed on. That would be an argument, but that's not the case here.

Even that was thoroughly misleading. You say, well, Dr. Brown, why didn't you get into that in rebutting? Because I wasn't dealing with the church fathers. That's not what I agreed to debate. That's not the material I was going to present. But to those who wanted to take the time to study, I said this. I said, check online.

Check online. Look up the sources. See how unanimous they were. At one point in the debate, Williams said, yeah, every church father, it's unanimous.

They all interpret 1 Corinthians 3 this way. And then he clarified. He said, well, I'm not saying they all commented on it. Oh, interesting. Interesting.

So theoretically, if three out of 30 church fathers, just to throw out a number, made this comment on 1 Corinthians 3, would that be unanimous then if the other 27 didn't comment on it or other writings they had pointed in a different direction? You see how misleading all that was. Again, I didn't rebut it. I didn't deal with it in depth because that's not what the debate was. That's not what I was focused on. And that's not what I agreed to. So, again, you have to have principle. If you're going to get into a debate and it deviates from the topic, then, you know, I said, look, there are other things I'm happy to debate another time.

If we set that up for that purpose, fine. Or, you know, the books of Maccabees, were they considered canonical in the early Jewish community? Were they recognized universally as part of the Bible at any time in early church history or Second Temple Judaism? It's a separate debate.

And the answer is no. They were never universally recognized as Scripture. And they were not part of the recognized Jewish canon in the ancient world.

But that, again, that's a separate debate. In point of fact, I'm quite sure, with all respect to my Catholic friends, that we can demonstrate scripturally that purgatory is not taught anywhere in the Bible. That we can demonstrate it scripturally. What we agree on is canonical books of the Bible, putting aside Second Maccabees, for the moment. And again, even there, you can argue whether it teaches purgatory as Catholics hold. I can demonstrate scripturally, I believe clearly, and even unequivocally, that purgatory is not a biblical concept.

Now, let me say this plainly. If it was, I'd embrace it. If that was the case, if that's what God's Word taught, if that's what he required, a further purging, a further purging, a further purification, a certain suffering, going through fire in a certain way, if that's what our God required of some people to be with him forever, then so be it.

Whatever he says is good with me, he's wonderful, he's our Heavenly Father. This would not be some doctrine to me where it would shatter everything, I believe. Where, you know, the idea that there's no God, the idea that the Bible's not true, the idea that Jesus didn't rise from the dead, those things would absolutely, completely shatter and demolish everything that we believe or hold to, and would, without question, be things that would destroy the lives that we're living. Everything would come under question. Thank God there's, thank God he is, thank God his Word is true, thank God Jesus is risen.

Those things were certain to me as the chair that I'm sitting on. So purgatory is not one of those doctrines where, if it was true, it would destroy every foundation of my spiritual life. If the Bible taught it, I'd embrace it.

But the Bible doesn't teach it, and in fact, rightly understanding the blood of Jesus, rightly understanding redemption, rightly understanding justification by faith, rightly understanding the relationship that we currently have with God now, all of those things indicate plainly and clearly that purgatory is not a biblical concept. So here's, here's what we're going to do today. Let me just take a look over at our phone lines. All right, 866-344.

So again, I invite you to call Catholic Friends, those that believe that, that the Church Fathers have taught with a clear unanimous voice on this, those that want to make a case for the canonicity of 2 Maccabees, which of course would mean 1 Maccabees as well. I'm not going to bite your head off. I may differ with you, but I want to give you an opportunity to present your case, and if you happen to watch the debate and were sympathetic to William's viewpoints, by all means give us a call, 866-344. But here's what we're going to do. We come back. I'm going to lay out my argument as to why purgatory is not biblical, and I believe you'll be edified, you'll be helped, you'll be encouraged. And then after that, for the rest of the show, I'll open up the phone lines. So if you've got a friend, Catholic apologist, or someone that believes in purgatory, and you know they'd like to weigh in on this, phone lines are open, all right? And in fact, I will give pride of place.

I will give first place to those who differ with me, to those who want to challenge what I'm saying or have a different point of view. This is not a hill we die on, meaning that this is not ultimately a matter of our standing with God, but it's an important doctrinal point for sure. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks friends for joining us on the Line of Fire, 866-344. If you think purgatory is a biblical doctrine, by all means give us a call to demonstrate your point. Here's why I say purgatory is not biblical.

Let me pull up a few notes that I used in the debate a couple of weeks back on the subject. First, when we understand what happens to us when we're born again, we realize that purgatory is not biblical, because the moment you are born again through faith in the Lord Jesus, the Bible says you are justified, so you go from guilty to not guilty, from unrighteous to righteous, you are forgiven, you are set apart as holy, you become a child of God, you're transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light from death to life. Here, listen to scripture, 1 Corinthians 6-11, and that is what some of you were, but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

The moment you were born again, Romans 5, we've been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus through whom we have access by faith into disgrace in which we now stand. Ephesians 2 says this, that all of us live like the world at one time gratifying the cravings of our flesh following its desires and thoughts like the rest we were by nature deserving of wrath but because of his great love for us God who is rich in mercy made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions it is by grace you have been saved and God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus. So you are presently, spiritually speaking, seated in the heavenly realms with Jesus. How is it then at death that you go backwards? How is it at death you go backwards and you have to go through some type of purgatory to be pure enough to be in his presence like that forever and ever? Whereas Ephesians tells us right now we are seated in heavenly places in Jesus. Colossians 1, we've been delivered rescued from the dominion of darkness and brought into the kingdom of the son he loves.

You are in, you are as in as you are ever going to be in in that respect. Once you were alienated from God, also in Colossians 1, you were enemies in your mind because your evil behavior but now he's reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death, look at this, to present you wholly in his sight without blemish and free from accusation if you continue in your faith. So if you continue in your faith then when you die through the blood of Jesus you will be presented before God, look at this, wholly in his sight without blemish and free from accusation. There is no purgatory. There's no need for a purgatory.

There's nothing to be purged. Secondly, based on writings from the New Testament clearly, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. That's why Jesus tells the thief on the cross who obviously died in his sin, died in wickedness or died for his sin I should say. Crucifixion was for the worst of sinners. It wasn't even for Romans unless you committed treason otherwise it's for Jews and other foreigners.

It's a terrible punishment. So Jesus says to him, truly truly I say to you today you'll be with me in paradise. If the thief on the cross who had no time to grow in holiness and no time to purge his life, if he immediately goes to paradise just like in Luke 16 whether you take his literal account or a parable, Lazarus there goes immediately into Abraham's bosom which is is paradise, doesn't go through a time of purification, cleansing, purging.

No, he goes straight there. What does Paul say in Philippians 1? I desire to depart and be with Jesus.

That was his hope and desire. Those who have been beheaded for their faith in Revelation 6 there before the throne of God saying, Lord how long before you avenge our blood? And Paul indicates in 2 Corinthians 5 that being absent from the body means being present with the Lord. So there is no purgatory, there is no middle ground. Thirdly, Hebrews 9 27 tells us that it's appointed to man once to die and then after this the judgment. And then we know that the future resurrection, there are only two options. There's resurrection to life, there's resurrection to death, there's resurrection to eternal blessing, there's resurrection to eternal damnation.

There's no in-between stage. You die, you go to a place either with God or separated from God, there's the physical resurrection and then eternal judgment. That's all scripture knows. And John 5 tells us that those who believe now have passed from death to life and will not come under condemnation. So we are redeemed, we are forgiven, we've been set apart as holy, we are called to grow in holiness and grow in grace and there will be rewards for our labor. Scripture is clear on that but in terms of our salvation it is through the blood of Jesus, it has been accomplished, we are growing in our sanctification, growing in our relationship with God, growing in our fruit bearing, but as for our standing it has been accomplished through the blood of Jesus. Unless we reject him, if we don't continue in our faith, if we reject him then he rejects us.

Otherwise he said that nobody can touch us, nobody can take us out of his hands and on that day he will present us holy in his father's sight. Next think of this, when Jesus returns there'll be presumably hundreds of millions of believers on the earth and what will happen? We'll be transformed in a moment of time and be with the Lord forever and the dead in Messiah will rise and so they'll rise and precede us. Meet the Lord in the air as he descends to the earth and we'll be with him forever.

So there's no purgatory there for hundreds of millions of people or maybe billions at the end of the age. When the Lord returns, what does it say? We will become like him, first John, for we will see him as he is. So we're going to be transformed. 1 Corinthians the 15th chapter, in a moment, in the 20th of an eye, at the last trumpet, the trumpet will sound and we'll be changed. There is no purgatory and if it could happen to hundreds of millions at the end of the age and theoretically Jesus could come at any moment in history, right? I don't mean prophetically and all that but just theoretically we are to live in ready readiness for his coming, then that's going to happen. That's the reality. It's just like death instantly in the presence of God.

Why? Because of what Jesus has done on the cross. There's no purgatory. There is no purgatory. And then another question, where does the New Testament ever indicate that going through sufferings produces forgiveness of sins? Or we can grow in character for sure, we can grow in perseverance, but where is it ever connected with forgiveness of sins?

It's not. You would say well that's not what purgatory is about. Well then why use verses to support purgatory? They talk about forgiveness. That's another question to come to.

And then look at this. Right now, because of what Jesus has done, we can enter into the holiest place of all. Let me read this to you from Hebrews chapter 10.

Are you ready? Therefore brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the most holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God that is drawn near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water, right now in prayer, spiritually, you can enter into the holiest place of all in intimate fellowship with God. Why is it when you die you not have to go through some type of purging? Where is it? It's not taught, not a syllable in the New Testament. You say yeah but what about 1 Corinthians chapter 3?

Let's take a look at that. This is the the the passage that's most commonly pointed to. 1 Corinthians chapter 3 beginning verse 11, and if we get my screen up here that would be great. There Paul is talking about as a master builder, Paul himself as a master builder building on the foundation of Jesus and says now no one can lay any other foundation than what is already laid which is Yeshua the Messiah. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become clear. So this is judging the work. It's not a judgment on the person's salvation and it could well be speaking of church planters and that's who Paul's talking about.

Let's just apply this to all believers who are building on the foundation of Jesus. So it says your work will become clear. It doesn't say that you are being judged here by your works, that the works are you, but rather your works will become clear. Your works will be judged.

Is it explicit or not? Each one's work will become clear for the day will show it because it is to be revealed by fire. So this is on judgment day. This is a one-time event, not a period of time, not a process, and the fire itself will test. Does it say each person?

No. Each one's work, what sort it is. If anyone's work built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved but that's through fire.

Ah! He says he's going to be saved through fire that's purgatory. No, it's not talking about purgatory. It's not talking about a purification process of the individual.

Either the work will receive a reward or all the work will be burned up. It is our works for God. Were they built in faith? Were they built in integrity? Were they built in purity or was it pride? Was it greed? Were there other motives in terms of what we did?

Those are the questions. This is not a matter of salvation. You say, well, why does it say he himself will be saved but as through fire?

What it's saying is that, yeah, okay, all your works are being destroyed. You're still saved. But like one going through the fire, it's an analogy. It goes back to language probably from the Old Testament, Zechariah. You have it a couple times in the Old Testament, like a brand plucked from the fire, all right? That it's just an idiom for saying, yeah, you still are saved. Peter talks about, quoting Proverbs, if they're righteous or scarcely saved, what about the ungodly? So saying, yeah, even if the work you did for the Lord was with wrong motive or something like that and all the works burned up, again, it's not about personal purification, not a hint of it in the text, not a hint of it. Either you receive a reward for the good works or the bad works are burned up. That's it. It's not a purification by fire.

Zero. There's nowhere in the text, not even hinted at. But don't worry, you're still saved. Yeah, like one plucked from the fire, but you're still saved.

So to use this for purgatory is one of the most bizarre misuses of scripture I've encountered over the years. We'll be right back. It's The Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into The Line of Fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks friends for joining us on The Line of Fire. If you believe that purgatory can be supported biblically, when I say biblically in this conversation, I mean on the books that we all agree are part of the Bible. So as Protestants and Catholics and whatever other groups there would be, that we have in common a belief in 66 books of the Bible, if you believe you can make a case for purgatory biblically, if you believe you can shoot holes in cases I've made against it, then by all means give me a call. This is not to yell at each other, get mad at each other, but to have an honest question about scripture.

866-348-7884. Now here's something really interesting. When arguments were made by a Catholic apologist against me a couple of weeks ago saying that purgatory was biblical and all the church fathers unanimously held to it, so who are the earliest church fathers? And if they're Catholic friends out there listening or those that hold to purgatory and say hey the testimony of the early church is really strong. All right so I'm just looking at a list of the earliest church fathers. So the the very first ones, some of them would be disciples of the apostles and then others disciples of their disciples, but some of the first generation ones like Polycarp, a disciple of of John, right? So the very earliest church fathers Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp of Smyrna, Papias of Hierapolis, Justin Martyr, Rheneas of Lyons or Lyons, Clement of Alexandria, Origen of Alexandria. Out of those first ones, how many of them made comments supporting the idea of purgatory?

Just let me know if this is your area or if this is something that you've argued. And if you can't find any of the first ones, maybe you have to go to second or third generation before quotes start coming up. What would that tell you? Tell you the least it was not some major doctrine that was preached or perhaps it was something that they didn't believe at all and it came in later. Look it's a doctrine that's easy to understand why people come up with because you want to be able to do something for someone they die, right?

And you think well you know they were they were good but not perfect and maybe they're like in between. I mean it's I mean it's the rational mind could come up with these kinds of things but scripture no not in scripture. And and if you want to go to Origen of course Origen ultimately believes in universal reconciliation. Origen is later excommunicated for saying that everybody even angels Satan will ultimately be be saved reconciled. Just throwing things out for you to think about. Well we'll look at some more scripture in terms of scriptures that are used to support purgatory in a moment.

Okay I don't see anybody yet who's arguing for purgatory so I won't wait a little bit longer give you an opportunity. But here's another verse that is used to support purgatory. Matthew chapter five.

Let's take a look at this. Matthew chapter five beginning in verse 21. Jesus says you've heard that it was said to those of old you shall not murder whoever commits murder shall be subject to judgment but I tell you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be subject to judgment whoever says to his brother Rocca it's a term of utter disparagement shall be subject to the council and whoever says you fool shall be subject to fiery Gehenna. Therefore if you are presenting your offering upon the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you leave your offering there before the altar and go first be reconciled to your brother and then come and present your offering make friends quickly with your opponent while you are with him on the way otherwise your opponent may hand you over to the judge and the judge to the assistant and you'll be thrown into prison and then I tell you will never get out there until you've paid back the last penny you say well where's the reference to purgatory that's a great question where's the reference to purgatory it's not there not a hint of it so where they get it from well the idea that Jesus is talking about a purgatory situation here we have to stay in prison until you pay back the last penny so let's press this analogy as we step back from the text number one is purgatory about paying something back is that what it's about did you pay back every last penny you owe well I think catholic theologians say no it's not about that right so then doesn't apply there and what's the point Jesus is making it's that's the point he's making be reconciled to your brother it's not talking about being reconciled to God that's not the issue it's saying that God doesn't want your sacrifice if there's an issue with you and your brother so let's say I you know walk out of a storm really mad at somebody because they didn't take care of me and were slow and slow it's like you're an idiot I mean God forbid I never do it but you're an idiot and I walk out the store and I go from there I got a hurry to get the prayer meeting on time so I can oh Lord I love you and worship you God so you go back and make things right with that person God's not interested in our hypocritical prayers when our hearts are not right with him because we've sinned against others and then he's saying look remember the way it is that if you don't make things right when you can this person the thing may escalate right and charges may be pressed against you and you may end up in prison so let let's say I owe you ten thousand dollars and I keep making excuses about paying back and I lie to you and I even extort more money from you and I and you say look Mike I want to give you an opportunity to make it right I want to give you an opportunity to fix this let's work out a payment plan I don't want to hurt you I don't want to press charges and I keep ignoring you I don't respond to your calls in fact I extort more money from you somehow and you're like all right I'm taking you to court and now next thing I'm put in debtors prison well in the ancient world you could die in debtors prison why because you can't work in other words you stay there until you pay the person back many people would die there because they could never pay it back because they couldn't work and their family couldn't come up with the adequate money so they die in debtors prison so is that a possibility you die in purgatory and there's a whole the whole thing has nothing to do with purgatory one last passage let's pull up matthew chapter 12 matthew chapter 12 and we'll begin oh around verse 30 and again when you realize that these are verses that are used to support purgatory in the bible and these are the main verses they're used you think okay something is terribly terribly wrong here with this argument then you have to go to second maccabees which number one is was not received as canon in the early jewish world and was disputed as canon in the early church for centuries by the way it's factually but even there it doesn't equate to purgatory the way the catholic church would teach it on certain levels but i'm not even arguing that we're just dealing with what we agree on in scripture so matthew 12 actually will start in verse 31 jesus has said who's not with me is against me is not who does not gather with me scatters for this reason jesus as i say to you every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men but blast me against the ruach against the spirit will not be forgiven whoever speaks a word against the son of man will be forgiven but whoever speaks against the ruach of codas the holy spirit will not be forgiven neither in this age nor in the one to come what's that got to do with purgatory good question purgatory is not normally associated with forgiveness but purging cleansing preparing right it's got nothing to do with it you say well what does it mean won't be forgiven this age in the age to come well one way to read it this means ever ever don't think that there's any forgiveness that's done in this age not in the age to come forever that could simply be what jesus is saying also it could be that he was referring to the concept that there are certain jewish traditions that claim that say manassa was forgiven in this world but not in the world to come that he received forgiveness in this age but in the age to come he'd be forever damned or or subject to certain judgment and jesus is dealing with this idea of forgiveness in this world and or the world to come and needs to say hey it's not going to happen that's a finalist but does it have anything to do with purgatory no zero nothing being honest with the text all right eight six six three four truth quick reminder so this is a little over a half hour from now slightly over a half hour from now we will be doing an exclusive youtube chat so starting at 4 15 eastern time 4 15 eastern time on the ask dr brown youtube channel ask dear brown if you're not watching there remember you can watch our show live on youtube daily three to four pm yeah watch i know you're listening on radio or podcast but you can watch if you like nice smiles for everybody there um and then make sure you subscribe and then hit hit the bell which reminds you of of new videos that premiere you can be the first to know so 4 15 eastern time we're doing this what on wednesday this week our exclusive youtube chat where you can post any kind of question and i answer as many as i can um all right let's let's go to the phones we'll start in fort lauderdale florida henry thanks for holding welcome to the line of fire hi dr brown hey um thank you for this opportunity yeah hang on are you are you speaking right into the phone sir it's a little hard to hear you can you hear me now yeah that's that's better okay um i just wanted to thank you for the opportunity to talk about purgatory and in respectful even even um handed way uh i just wanted to make three quick points and then maybe give a follow-up um as far as proof perfect the purgatory number one in revelation 21 27 as you know that says that nothing unclean can come to heaven and i'm sure we both agree with that all right so henry so let me just ask one thing well let's go point for point revelation 21 nothing unclean 27 what does it say in revelation 22 how do we enter heaven what what does it specifically say we have washed our robes meaning we're washed in the blood so we enter washed in the blood of jesus that's how we enter so revelation answers that question right but i mean i'm sure you would read nothing unclean or anything you know that's dirty right but we are cleansed by the blood of jesus scripture uses that exact language we are made clean by the blood of the lamb okay also in the book of luke you know before i go there you also have to understand you know we believe that there's more than just going to heaven and going to heaven there's a third you know obviously process of you know purging but where is it where's in the bible that's the question it's alluded it's alluded to in luke chapter 12 where you have um the sermons and this is a a parable of the second coming when it comes to justice and death all right so tell you what it's it's super difficult to hear henry uh so if you've got one more passage i want you to i want you to give it to to grayson uh because i can barely hear you all right i barely hear myself right now actually that music there we go so grayson if he's got one more scripture let him give it to you and we'll have to deal with it off the air i'll answer on the air but not on the phones because we can barely hear you but i'm gonna i'm gonna respond to luke 12 in a moment it's the line of fire with your host activist author international speaker and theologian dr michael brown your voice of moral cultural and spiritual revolution get into the line of fire now by calling eight six six three four true here again is dr michael brown hey you know i i shoot straight here look i've debated my friend james white and others on calvinism and i understand the verses that can be used for calvinism and how that yeah that could sound like that but here verse is against it and the preponderance goes in this direction so i hold to this view there are other subjects you know we debate back and forth end time issues and things like that when it comes to debating purgatory biblically to me there's no debate there's it's not there it's not there so this was another passage that that henry's pointed to in luke chapter 12 beginning in verse 42 it's it's about jesus returning he he departs these people in charge of things and some are faithful some aren't faithful that's that's what's dealing with there's no purging there's no in between there's no cleansing and further purification it's the ones that serve faithfully or reward it and others are judged read it for yourself luke 12 starting on verse 40 42 read it for yourself it's just it's one of these things and and you know a way that it's not an infallible way to to judge doctrine obviously and looks like we didn't get that third verse from from henry but um when i've read a passage for decades and it's never once dawned on me reading the passage that it could have a particular meaning and then someone says i think it means this like what on earth are you talking about and then you look again you look again you look again you look against like you can't it's just not what the text says it's not there had to be read in had to be imported whereas there are other things like you read it's like i wonder what that means yeah okay does that say this or that these questions come up all the time but the verses that are used to support purgatory when i first heard them after reading the scripture over and over and over and memorizing many of these passages over the years and then heard it was used to support purgatory i thought what no it can't be in fact no these are some of the key verses look people say well was jesus said he's going to build his his his church on the rock is that peter did he build it on peter you understand why people have that question and the catholics say peter was the first pope okay i understand here's what i differ but i get that i understand where you're coming from with that right or arguments about is hell eternal conscious torment or is it perishing be cut off yeah i see the verses i see where you're getting it from but the purgatory verse is like mm-hmm there's just not there ah okay yeah so i dealt with i dealt with uh matthew 5 23 through 26 dealt with that earlier yep luke 12 42 48 yeah so the and and luke i guess is that 12 58 to 59 uh let's just take a look because i didn't reference those luke 12 58 259 give me one second you're going with it is so that's the parallel to matthew 5 that has to do with reconciliation with a person that's all has to do with i just encourage you henry step back and read read the text and say okay what's what does it actually say forget what i've been told that elude story hints at what does it actually say and then take in all the scriptures i gave you the moment you're saved you're pronounced clean here have you made been made clean through the blood of jesus or not have you been justified by the blood of jesus have you become a child of god by the blood of jesus are you now seated in heavenly places with the lord through the blood of jesus are you now considered a child of god have you now been set apart as holy by the blood of jesus can you now enter the most holy place through prayer by the blood of jesus blood of jesus well sir if you're in that spiritual fellowship now why do you then have to be purged of sin later or or pay is is the passages you're citing pay the last penny that's what you're going to do you're going to pay for your sins in purgatory i thought jesus paid for your sins it's not about pain well then don't quote those passages again there are other doctrines like yeah i see where you're coming from on that i i get it yeah so here's why i differ here's a different perspective looking at certain messianic prophecies yeah i see why you would say that's not messianic let me let me show you why i believe it is and we go back and forth on certain points but the purgatory verses just it's not there and if you say well it's hinted at okay well then where is it taught where is it taught explicitly when the opposite is taught explicitly when the bible tells us that at death you're with the lord or you're not that that at death you you are in his presence presented as holy or not now are we called to grow in holiness in this world yes or are there consequences to our disobedience yes and and that will affect us either in this world or the world to come but the middle stage just isn't there in the bible or whatever intermediate stage that you want to refer to it's just not there in the bible okay we go back to the phones uh let's go to caleb in rancho cucamonga california thanks for calling the line of fire and thanks for holding hi doctor yeah i believe um i believe you know your biblical response 100 my question is um connecting this idea of purgatory with near-death experiences um a lot of which i've seen from charismatic networks and so on and the the more um reliable ones where they're clinically dead and um some some you know their lives are totally changed and becoming christians and some incredible witnesses and pastors and so on who um die as atheists or unbelievers they're in hell and then they cry out to jesus he rescues them jesus takes them to heaven and um you know eventually they're there they come back from the dead in the hospital setting um and they have this testimony so my question is could that not be seen as a form of purgatory and if that if that is possible the first few hours after death to call out to jesus in hell and him save them could that not be possible a thousand years after death a million years after death you know if a person comes to their senses you know in hell being tormented going through fire or whatever so that's my question how do you connect it with yeah appreciate i appreciate the question yeah number one we never ever ever ever ever based doctrine on someone's experience your death experience anything ever ever ever ever ever uh and if you talk if you talk to a thousand different people you'll often have a thousand different experiences shall we believe those that died as non-believers and talk about entering into the light and so on and the universal light and presence then your death experiences become interesting when the person is telling you what was happening outside of the room when they tell the family i saw you i was on the operating table right and my spirit left my body and i saw all of you and and you were so concerned and tells them what they were each wearing and what they snacks they were eating and and things like that and um so on that that then provides verification of the existence of the human spirit um right but as to all of these accounts every one of them that i've ever heard is the opposite of purgatory it was god saying this is where you're going unless you turn to me for salvation and it was not that they were purged of sins it was not that they were purified and and purgatory is not taught as a means for a rebellious sinner to to have another opportunity after death rather for someone that is not however you want to say it righteous enough clean enough to go through this time of purification so it's not even parallel to the catholic doctrine but in all the cases of people i've heard if if i was to take their stories as as truthful like mickey robinson for example who dies in a you know plane wreck fire and and so on god was showing him okay this is where you're going if i let you go now but i'm willing to give you another chance in this body on the earth and that's when they then make the decision you know mickey robinson then wakes up in his body in physical agony and then has to make the decision to follow jesus so so even even though i know you would agree that we don't base doctrine on it it's not even a parallel it's not even a parallel it's not even analogous so thank you for the call appreciate it and we've got time for one more uh adam in boon iowa over to you hello dr brown hey okay so jesus says behold i have told you all things right okay he also says he also says god is his spirit and he wants us to worship him in spirit and in truth okay well remember that we'll go to the first book of john first chapter of john sorry um verses three through five all things were made by him without him was not anything made that was made and him was life that life was the light of man that light shines in darkness and the darkness has not comprehended it or overpowered it however you want to look at it okay with that in mind let's look at what one-third of our modern economy is made up of that yeah so adam a little more integrity on your calls okay we told you that only calls relative to purgatory were being taken today you called back and said okay you wanted to talk about purgatory only to get back to your original subject that we said was not for today so that's a strike against you buddy for integrity come on man just play by the rules buddy we have days and days and days hundreds thousands of days where people can call in and talk about any subject under the sun and this day we say calls related to purgatory only you say okay call back and then try to trick us is that christian come on bud step higher all right if you want to get through again step higher so for everybody hey if you call and it's off subject we tell you it's off subject there are plenty of days i'll talk about something for 10 or 15 minutes and it's okay from here anything goes anything you want to talk about we do it on fridays jewish-related subjects on thursdays so come on play by the rules fair enough so is purgatory biblical nope not a chance be back in 15 minutes 15 minutes for our youtube chat right on the ask dr brown ask dear brown youtube channel i'll talk to you then 4 15 eastern time another program powered by the truth network