Different Perspectives on Trump, the Church, and Nationalism

Hey friends, I'm about to have a friendly discussion with Pastor Shane Eidelman. We'll talk about Trumpism, Christian nationalism, loyalty to our country, loyalty to God, where there's been misunderstanding among brothers and sisters.

We'll seek to model that discussion for you today, right here on the Line of Fire. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. If there's one thing that's clear in Scripture is that God has called his people to be one. God has called his people to unite around Jesus and to unite around the fundamental truths that he has laid out in his Word and the fundamental principles of life. Jesus prayed that we would be one.

Paul urged us to be one. The psalmist talks about the blessing that comes with unity when God's people are together as one. And we are right now in a tremendously divisive time in America, but not just in America, within the church as well. And many people who love the Lord and seem to be fighting for the same larger goals and causes find themselves missing each other, misunderstanding each other, even dividing. So the whole purpose of today's broadcast is to try to flesh out some of the differences, some of the perspectives, what I mean when I say something, what someone hears when I say that, so that we can unite around what really matters. Not minimize our differences, not discard them, not throw away truth and principle and just say, well, kumbaya, we'll all be one.

But no, in a substantive way, really understand the things that are most important to God and one another, and by honoring one another and honoring him, come together as one, because right now, America is falling apart, but the church has the solution in the gospel. This is Michael Brown. Welcome to the line of fire. I want to bring on immediately with me a dear brother, a colleague, finally got to meet face to face earlier this year, preach for him, meet his amazing family. And I have been so inch for inch, heart for heart with Shane Eidelman for years now. Before he reached out to me and we got to know each other, I was amening his columns.

I felt like I could just put my name at the end of his articles. We share the same heart for the purity of the gospel, for repentance, for holiness, for revival, for evangelism. And then recently we seem to be kind of on different sides of different subjects. So that got us talking and Shane said, why don't we have this discussion on the air? So, Pastor Shane, welcome to the broadcast. Thanks so much for joining us.

Oh, welcome. It's good to be back in this time. We are at odds a little bit, like you said, but I think it's healthy because people, especially right now, they have to understand or learn how to have a healthy discussion without getting mean and nasty and angry. And I'll just be honest and transparent.

I don't have any problem doing this. On one of your emails, you mentioned that maybe I'm not looking at the other side of my articles and I'm not really relating to the other side. And I don't necessarily disagree with that.

I think if I have something to work on, that's probably an area I have to work on for sure. But then I started thinking, because you mentioned here, I just wrote it down, we want to unite around important matters. And that is so true. But why aren't we uniting? What's going on? And then I saw in your articles maybe a push against how I'm thinking and believing.

And then you felt the same way. So I said, hey, maybe we can just get it out there for people to hear, because this is a very important topic, especially right now when you have the election, the fraud or the lack of evidence and all these different things and Trump and Trumpism and nationalism. Let's flesh this out a little bit so Christians, I think, can better understand where we're really coming from, because we do disagree a little bit on this issue. Yeah, and part of it is understanding each other better. In other words, let's find out where we do actually disagree so we can have a discussion there, because many times it's just the way a word is used.

I mean it one way, someone else means it another way. So just for the record, are we having a friendly discussion or friendly debate? Definitely a friendly discussion. I don't want to debate you.

OK, well, just because you had posted it like that and you've been in California, even though I'm in North Carolina, I'm a New Yorker, so I put on my New York shirt just in case it was a debate. But OK, we have a friendly discussion. That's what we need to do. So let's start here. If you were to say the things that most drive you and me, where we have been soul mates and where when I preach for you, we were heart for heart, what would you say are those most essential things that really join us together as one?

Well, I think it's on the essentials. You know, Christ, the inerrancy of scripture, fighting against the evil agenda that is coming against our nation and the heart for revival. You know, those types of things really bring us together. And then what seemed to be dividing a lot of people is this this whole issue. Now that we're talking about, you know, draping the flag with the cross, the Trump is and the nationalism.

And that's where I think that there's a divide somehow. And I've been man, I've been like you praying and fasting. And even this morning, everyone, Lord, if I'm wrong here, show me. God, give me a heart of compassion. Show me what your word says and and seeking the heart of God. And here's what I found. The more I seek God, the bolder I become on these issues.

Go figure. So it's it's interesting, very interesting times. And, you know, you know me pretty well, but not not not totally. And when I send something to you saying, I think you're missing something, I then get on my knees and say, Father, what am I missing? So that's that's what we're both doing. And that's what we have to because all of us have blind spots. You know, I had on the show with me yesterday a black pastor and a white pastor who've come together as one and their church is working together in a close way. And there as we talked, I said, you know, the one thing that happens in these relationships is you realize blind spots.

We have things we didn't see or or maybe where you live in America, how you're responding to something versus someone else. So let's let's start here then. But I think if I can.

Yeah, go ahead, please. This is important. I think God also raises up different voices. So if he gives somebody a bold, prophetic Leonard Ravenhill heart, they're going to you know, they're going to kind of ruffle that nice, quiet, meek, mild pastor.

You know, it's going to be sandpaper. And so that's why we have to appreciate different giftings and different callings. But I think it started with really the Beth Moore tweet. You know, you said, hey, you know, you you would support that. And I would say I would absolutely not support that. So that's kind of where I think the main thrust of this is that.

Yes. So let's start there. I want to read the tweet.

I want to say this first. I know Beth Moore is very well known, but I've never heard her speak. I've never read, to my knowledge, a paragraph of what she's written. I know that there have been accusations that she's she's become very, quote, woke. And her views have become more liberal.

I don't know. These are just accusations. I've just never followed her. Plenty of people out there have never followed. But she tweeted this out and it gotten a ton of response over 100000 likes when I'd seen it. She said, I don't believe these are days for mincing words.

I'm sixty three and a half years old and I've never seen anything in these United States of America. I found more astonishingly seductive and dangerous to the saints of God than Trump ism. This Christian nationalism is not of God. Move back from it. OK. You were so grieved when you heard that you put out a video strongly differing with what did you hear when you when you read that tweet? Well, I should also say with you, I've never really followed her. I don't like putting down and you know, that's my heart. I don't like naming names and attacking people. And, you know, my heart's not there.

It grieves me. But when they go public, I feel I have a responsibility to respond in public. So what I heard is she just threw everyone under the bus, everyone on his council from James Robinson to Jim Garlow to Jack Hibbs, all these men I know.

And I talked to Jack Graham, Jenson Franklin, myself, all these solid Christians, Lou Engle. She just threw us all under the bus. And I believe it's because they don't like Trump. So they have to just throw this out there. God forbid we meet in Washington, D.C. to have a rally. And then she comes out the next day and throws it out.

So I think it's you know, what you would do is say, hey, we appreciate your heart for our nation and God. But you have to be careful with Trump ism. And here's what I mean. She doesn't do that.

She just throws everybody under the bus, all 74 million voters in one fell swoop. And I think it's disingenuous and I think it needs to be lovingly challenged. All right. So here's the thing that baffled me.

But this is why it's so helpful to flesh this out. When I read that, I didn't think Shane Edelman. I didn't think James Robison.

I didn't think Lou Engle. I didn't think any of my friends, colleagues. I thought of those who have really looked to Trump in a dangerous way is the only man who can save America. And God's anointed and Christian nationalism as equating the kingdom of God with America. And I've seen a real danger among some Trump voters and supporters. And that's who I read. So why did you immediately hear that? That's that's throwing everybody under the bus that I voted for Trump.

And it's strongly supported this agenda. Why did you hear it the way you did? Well, I think I would even throw that back on you. How would how would anyone assume that? Oh, no, she didn't mean all these other people. She just met those religious right draping the cross.

How would how would we know to read through that? So I would actually throw that back on you. It doesn't say that when she makes such a broad statement, a broad statement covers a large area of people. So she the burden of responsibility to clarify her position is on her, not on me.

So just throwing that out there after the Jericho march the next day. And it just she just doesn't. The bottom line is she doesn't like Trump. She doesn't like that there was a possibility of reelection. She doesn't like anything about him. She's never talked positive about him.

She's never said anything nice about him on tweet. So this is all her lashing out. And that's that's that's just the truth of it.

So that's why I went there with it. Right. Got it. So on my end, because I'm a debate and apologist, I always qualify. I'm not saying this.

I am saying this for those very reasons. When I heard it, I thought it was self-evident in terms of what it meant and in terms of Trump is a meeting, a particular thing, as I've described it, and Christian nationalism, meaning a particular thing. Now, one of my stream colleagues, John's Mirack, has been writing articles about how the concept of Christian nationalism is being misunderstood and trash.

So everyone's hearing it differently. But that's that's why we have to have the discussion. So, again, when I wrote my article agreeing with the words, I started by saying it's not about Beth Moore. And I don't know where she's at and what her views are, what her position is.

I just want to focus on this. And then I tried to define things. So so just tell me if you if you're with me on this definition, we'll start with Christian nationalism. And I said, you're not a Christian nationalist simply because you love and appreciate America. You're not a Christian nationalist because you're patriotic and serve in the military. You're not a Christian nationalist because you believe Trump is better for America than Biden. You're not a Christian nationalist because you believe there was electoral fraud and are doing your best to fight for a free and fair election. You're not a Christian nationalist because you believe America must protect our religious liberties. You're not a Christian nationalist because you believe God raised up America for special purposes in order to bless and help the world. world, but you are a Christian nationalist if you confuse loyalty to your country with loyalty to the kingdom of God. You are a Christian nationalist if you wrap the gospel and American flag. You are a Christian nationalist if you merge Christian and American identities. So where are you with me and not with me on that?

We'll start here, then kick it to you after the break, but go ahead. No, I'm absolutely with you on all of those terms. The problem is most God-fearing, God-honoring church members, people I know, you know, they don't they don't fit under that nationalism definition. We're not draping the cross with the flag.

We're not trusting in the God of Hermit more than God. We know if Trump were to be reelected, all hell could break loose, but it's a blanket statement. For example, let me ask you this.

God forbid if Trump were to pass away and it was Pence, so would we be considered Penceism? Okay, great. Perfect. Let's start there. On the other side of the break, we will come back. That's where we'll start, all right? And I want you to flesh that out, and we'll ask that question.

Would they look to Pence the way they look to Trump? Perfect way to come back. We'll be right back with Shane Heidelman. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks, friends, for joining us. We may take some calls if we have time.

866-342-866-348-7884. I'm here with Pastor Shane Heidelman, a respected colleague. I've said this publicly, but if I was looking for churches around America and pastors around America that are hungry for revival and visitation, that are willing to pay the price of having God come in their midst, and that would welcome the presence of God. Pastor Shane would be one of those on my top list, so I've got the utmost respect for him as a colleague, a man of fasting and prayer who stands burden for the same things that so many of us do, and yet we seem to be coming from some different angles here in terms of concerns that we have.

So Shane, back to you. You said, let's say it was Pence that was embattled right now, and let's say there was the fear the election was stolen from Mike Pence. Do you think that there would be the same Christian devotion around America today, evangelical solidarity with Pence that there is with Trump, or do you see any sign of almost a fanatical support or a dangerous support for Trump? Again, in my opinion, of course they're out there that have that radical view, but most of us are looking at the principles. So whether it's Trump, whether it's Ben Carson, whether it's Mike Pence, whether it's Pompeo, we would be fighting over these issues, the direction of our nation, and I think that should be said. Look at who he's putting around in Pompeo, Kayleigh, Ben Carson, Tony Perkins.

I mean, why is none of this taken into consideration? It's all about Trump and nationalism. No, we're excited about what God has done in our nation. We want to make a difference.

We want the freedom to preach the gospel, and Beth Moore is going in a very dangerous direction, and I think that's where her tweets are coming from. That's where nationalism is coming from, because you wouldn't hear this ten years ago. Well, actually, I've been following this for many, many years. Trump-ism, Trump-ism, I should say.

Right, right. I've been following the Christian nationalism thing for many, many years, and the merging of the kingdom of God with American identity. And even if you go back to the moral majority, when it basically became an appendage of the Republican Party, there were many concerns that were being raised back then. But remember that Donald Trump said that his critics say he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue in broad daylight, and he wouldn't lose any of his followers, and he said, yeah, it's an amazing thing.

That's what has shocked me. Again, it's not about about Beth Moore, and neither of us have followed her either way, so if she ever wanted to come on the air and share her views, that would be great. But just in short, what I see day and night by the thousands of comments on social media is almost an idolatrous view of Trump as some kind of political Messiah, as the only one that can save America and save the free world. And I fully recognize the issues of if you have Joe Biden's inaugurated, and let's say the two Senate seats in Georgia flip blue, all right, so now you have a situation where you could potentially pack the Supreme Court, you could open borders and have a flood of immigrants that wouldn't have been here otherwise tilting the voter base, you can make DC into a state and now shift the electoral votes, you renew the nuclear deal with Iran, cave into China, I mean there are potentially massive implications, I get that, but do you not see, and I know it's a leading way to ask when I say do not, but do you not see any undue looking to Trump as some type of political Messiah that can be dangerous for Christians? Yeah, and I think again it's the heart of pointing it out, and the heart of Beth Moore in these issues is not right, like you just saw the email I did that she recommended Jesus and John Wayne, how white evangelicals corrupted a faith and fractured a nation, this is just divisive at its core, so to answer your question, you actually said you know I get all this stuff, you just listed massive major things, correct? Yeah. From our borders to LGBT. Right, not even talking about abortion, LGBT, all the other things, I'm just right.

Yeah. All the other things that deeply concern us, absolutely. Yes, you said I get that, but I think that's what that's what kind of concerns me sometimes, it's the but, it's like well did you just hear what everything you just said, that's at stake, so yes I see people on the far right acting weird, putting him, elevating him, he's not Christ, he's not our Messiah, but if he's part, let's say I mean we both can agree that God put him in office, right, God raises the king up, so so if he was God's sovereign plan in 2016, why is all this critiquing of him now? We knew we were getting a billionaire from New York to come in and drain the swamp and bring back people and positions of leadership who have godly values, yes this character, yes this, I got it, but we're looking at the whole nation, political nation, where where where are we going, what direction are we going, so yeah I see that, I see the, yeah but I've been, yeah my point would be I've been saying the exact same thing from the start, I've been saying the same thing for four years, I could give you article after article where I've been saying the same thing, now it's just being read differently, but tell you what, I'm gonna respond more, but our dear friend, a man that we both respect deeply, James Robison is on the line, so gotta give the airtime over to my brother, James, thank you for taking time to call in, so good to hear from you, one of the greatest joys of my life is a servant, kingdom servant, is to point at the greatness of God in others, even the members of the body that have been too often overlooked or never even noticed or heard, and you and Shane are beautiful voices, and you love God with all your heart, you love your neighbor, and you want the best for everybody, I just want to address that, you know, obviously I love Beth Moore, we actually invested forty million dollars sharing Beth Moore's message to get women into the Word of God, and the Word of God into women, for many many years, and I've not been communicating with her a lot, but would love to, I love her, but this situation right now is very very troubling because I happen to be one of those individuals who the last 40 years has spoken truth to power and truth to the nation's leaders, and they always heard it straight on, I've never been partisan, I've never been sectarian, I've never been covered by a denomination, I don't want any covering on me other than Christ, I'm not a nationalist, and I'm certainly not one that's going to approve that which is improper like Trump's previous lifestyle, and many things in his life that still need to be honed, just as many who wrote the great books in the Bible, and Solomon was not an ideal example yet he gave us a lot of wisdom, Simon Peter made the pretty big mess, as did the other disciples, but the Lord still told us they could hear the truth, they could be corrected by the truth, and they could be used, and what I have done for four years, this is a thing I think everybody needs to hear, I happen to know the 20 or 30 leaders who are willing to tell the President the unadulterated truth, they never wavered, they were never partisan, they were never nationalist, they were biblical principled individuals who understood the strength of our Constitution as it was based upon biblical truth that was greater than all of the men who penned it, it even brought them to repentance and correction painfully, but the point is that this man amazingly asked for the truth and actually told me to surround him with prayer and wisdom and don't ever let him forget it, and I can tell you in hours and even days and for four years where he would take virtually every call that I sent to him unless he was speaking, and many of them were serious reprimands, and no one has ever had anyone more forcefully in their face than this man did with me, and there were plenty of witnesses on numerous occasions to hear it, many times it was just the two of us, never once did he push back, every single time he heard truth and wisdom it began to have an effect on him, this man led in decisions that no one ever believed he could possibly do and understand as being important, and I have tried to tell the church that he was an answer to the prayers of God's people who were asking God sincerely to heal the land and to correct us in the areas of our wickedness which indifference and salt losing its effect and the light being covered was one of our wicked ways, and I began to see Christian leaders come together the way Jesus prayed for us to, these 20 to 30 church leaders, the most influential powerful visible in the country, came together in a supernatural unity that was the most amazing that I have seen in 60 years of public ministry, I watched these great leaders love God with all their heart and put their arms around others who weren't so far from where they believe they should be and they begin to watch God change him and they amazingly watch this president make decisions that literally stunned everyone, so here's the point I want to make, my friend Beth Moore did a great teaching on Daniel, Daniel advised four kings, we would call them anything less than ideal, he oftentimes received appointments and leadership roles under those kings, every time those kings received the wisdom from God just like Pharaoh when he listened to Joseph the people were benefited and blessed, every time the leaders received the truth that the prophets delivered fearlessly, unwaveringly, the people were benefited and I am saying in answer to the prayers of the remnant of God, those who want the will of God, who love him with all their heart and who love their neighbors as themselves, those people were praying for God to heal a very sick nation and the healing process miraculously took place, now the enemy, the deceiver, the father of lies and disease and division, he has launched an all-out assault on us to hand the future of Americans to people who believe no meaningful principles, no biblical principles, no historically confirmed principles, the consequences of defying are undeniable, the results of obeying those principles are undeniable in the positive effect, I am saying that we have seen a miracle that's the answer to the prayers of people who love God with all their heart and want the best for their neighbors and these leaders, I give every one of them a hug, a high five, they never compromised in front of this president, they never wavered, they had nothing to do with partisanship, they are not nationalists, they love God with all their heart and they were willing to risk their reputation to tell a man that was unpopular with all sides, including the evangelicals, telling the unadulterated truth of God and they watch that transforming truth having an impact and effect on him, so I'm simply saying don't throw Daniel under the bus, don't throw Amos, don't throw Isaiah, don't throw Jeremiah under the bus because they preached the truth to the kings that were not righteous, this man, and I tell you, I want to say to Donald Trump and his family, you have been battered, but I tell you, thank you for listening to the truth, so I need you to say that.

All right, all right, we got a break, thank you, thank you for weighing in, we'll be right back. Oh God of burning, cleansing flame, send the fire. It's The Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution, here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks so much for joining us on The Line of Fire, this is Michael Brown with my special guest, Pastor Shane Idleman. I want to draw attention to one of his books in a moment, but I'm so glad that my dear friend James Robison just called in, because many a time he's called me immediately after talking with Donald Trump, I just got off the phone with the president, and he'll tell me, boy, I spoke strongly to him, and he listened, and you could hear a moment ago that James can be very forceful and very clear, and he's told me from the first time that they met together for over an hour in the days of the primaries, and that was a meeting alone to the countless times they've spoken, that he's spoken plainly to him. He said to me the other day, he said, Mike, you have no idea what I have said in terms of the level of strong correction, and James has said one time he rebuked the president so strongly, he called back because he felt he was too strong, and the president just wanted to know that he loved him. So you may not hear James speak that out to the general public, because he has access in private, just like in a family situation. You sit down and discuss it in private, and then publicly you do your best to stand together.

So that's what happened. In other words, what have these men been doing? Many of them have spoken as strongly as they can to the president, and many of the good decisions he's made, he's made because of that. So coming back to Shane now, I want to pick up on something and throw it over to you for clarification. Again, our goal is to try to flesh out where we may be differing with each other. When I gave the list of all the concerns I have about where the left or the radical left could take us, which I've warned about for many, many years, and my vote for Donald Trump in 2016 and 2020 was very strongly a vote against Hillary Clinton and the Democrats and against Joe Biden and the Democrats, and the agenda has gotten even more extreme. So there are many, many reasons to concern. So I stand with you on that 100%, and if there's been fraud, let it be exposed, let the truth come to light, let the upheaval come so that we can have free and fair elections in America. At the same time, I'm concerned that many of us who voted for Trump support him, are looking to him too much, believe him, and almost no one else will, no matter what he says or does, will somehow justify it.

And I find that unhealthy. And my thing is, if we really want the blessing of God, we've got to fix that. Otherwise, we're not going to be on God's side.

That's the but. In other words, yeah, we together stand against the radical left agenda. We together stand for free and fair elections and a righteous outcome of the election, 100%. At the same time, I have grave concerns about where many, the elements at the Jericho march, the militia calls and things like that, where things could be going. Can't we have both at the same time concerned about an idolatrous view of Trump, while standing strongly with him and the principles for which he ran?

Yeah, and of course, I think that's the heartbeat of all of us. We don't put Trump on a pedestal. He's not our savior. But I think what happens, and if I can just speak freely, is what happens a lot of times is you're trying to speak to a group, let's say the far right that's idolizing Trump. You're speaking to that group. But inadvertently, we're all thrown into that camp.

We're all thrown in under the bus. It feels like, for example, when you said in Beth Moore's tweet, Shane, how did you read into that that she was throwing you and Lou Engle and Jim Garlow? Well, Jim Garlow was upset by that tweet. Jack Hibbs was upset by that tweet.

I'm sure Jack Graham didn't like the tweet. So see, we're all feeling because we don't feel the camaraderie. We feel it's a lashing out, a going against Trump, a going against anyone that supports Trump. And like I said before, Fantifa, George Soros, Hollywood, China, the abortion industry is on your side.

Are you sure you're on the right side? So back to your question, it just feels like some of these articles are going against all of us that are supporting the president. And I don't know how to make the difference there.

I don't know how to show that difference. But that's how many people are feeling. And I think also if we look at the conflict it's creating, for example, you look at posts, you've said comments of Trump the savior. But I've also seen thousands of posts, yes, thousands over the last couple of months, where we're actually hurting believers because we're not, per se, my articles.

I probably do the opposite. I don't see the other side like you mentioned. But somehow in some way, for example, the article today on Flynn, where you quoted Flynn and the whole article was about draping the cross with the flag. And I didn't get that from Flynn's statement.

I got it from a man who's very upset the direction of our country. And I think we just need to be careful because we're throwing ourselves under the bus. We're throwing friends under the bus by not clarifying really well our positions. Right. Okay, so let's do our best to clarify better, okay? Because, again, people always get mad at me for all my caveats. I'm not saying this, I'm not saying this. But I'm trying to be precise because I want the point that I'm making to be heard.

And I'm always writing, hearing all the opposition in my head, and trying to factor that in so that I can overcome that and write with clarity. Michael Flynn, immediately after the Jericho March event, which again had speakers get up and talk about we need to form militias now, we don't need to wait, the militia's already president, let's go. It had that in the midst of it, and shofars with USA on them, and chants of USA side by side with chants of Jesus. Michael Flynn, General Flynn said, We the people are proud to proclaim that the United States of America is one nation under God. In this public profession of faith in God, we recognize his lordship over our country, and we proudly stand beneath the banner of Christ and our flag, in which millions have sacrificed their very lives for. In scripture, through the strength and commitment of Matthew, he said, Whoever is not with me is against me. So it's basically saying that you're dividing the country into the left and the right. The left is against Jesus, the right is with Jesus, and you're equating the banner of Christ with the American flag, which I'm seeing day and night. So what doesn't concern you in that statement? What do you think I misunderstood there? Well, long story short, take me a minute to unpack this, but when I read his statement, we have dual citizenship. We would agree, correct? So I can say the Lord Jesus Christ, one nation under God, the cross of Christ saved me, and at the same time appreciate the flag, appreciate the millions of lives who gave their lives for the freedoms we now enjoy, appreciate what God has done in our nation.

And I think sometimes what happens is maybe indirectly, or not you per se, but others put down that site as if that's bad. We can't honor and appreciate what God has done. It's like you've got to find this mushy middle that doesn't even exist. So I think we can have both. We're not draping the cross with the flag. We're acknowledging that the cross is above all and Jesus is Lord of all. But at the same time, my citizenship in America, thanking God for what he has done and wanting to make a difference, wanting to stand up against the LGBT agenda, like you've said before, wanting to bring righteousness back. Think about this. They're mocking Trump, but he's putting Christians in all areas of office.

Ben Carson over HUD. I mean, sometimes I think these people have just lost their mind. They hate Trump so much that they are coming up with this fake nationalism and Trumpism that is there, it's there, but it's this much, and they're making it this much, and it's really affecting a lot of people. All right, so let me ask this, because I start my article by saying it's one thing to be a patriot, even a Christian patriot. It's another thing to conflate the American flag with the banner of Christ.

So I'm saying it as plainly as I know how. I'm watching with astonishment as people I've known for years are basically equating loyalty with God with loyalty to Trump. And for example, if I say I voted for him, I support him, and I was on Mike Huckabee's show, he said it's the clearest statement he's ever heard by an evangelical explaining why we should vote for Trump.

This is the same person, right? The moment I warn about looking to him in the wrong way or making him into a political messiah, today I've been accused of being a Mossad agent. I was accused of being a flaming communist, a liberal leftist, a secularist. It's like, so hang on, I can preach Jesus loudly and clearly, but the moment I just say don't look to a man, a flawed man at that, a man with all the good he did did massive collateral damage with him. Now, somehow, that makes me disloyal to God. Doesn't that concern you that those types of attitudes are there in the body? Yeah, well, this actually might help.

Like when someone dies, you don't go and immediately quote Romans 8.28, correct? Oh, all things work together for good. It's time, Dr. Brown, our nation, the very fabric of our nation is being destroyed, and it's a very serious issue.

I think it was, and I asked a half dozen people, they all felt it was a hit against Flynn, not the right time, not good timing. It is pulling down when we need to be uniting. Now, the concerns are valid, but it's a shot against Flynn, a shot against this. It's like, where is this coming from right now? This is not the time. Well, why would you think I'm writing it? You know me pretty well. Why do you think I'm writing it? Probably to relate to that group that is elevating.

No, no, no, no. My whole goal is not to be popular with people, but to honor God, and I am 100% sure in my own spirit that just as dangerous as what the left is doing is where the wrong emphasis in the church is going right now, that if there's any way that God's going to put us in the right direction and push back against a radical left agenda to the extent we go in this wrong direction, then God will not be able to bless. Here, even if there was electoral fraud and God's ready to bring it up and expose it, the way the church has gotten so militantly nationalistic, Trump-centered, and to the point of dividing against friends, tearing down, slandering, attacking, and I'm hearing from masses of people saying, Amen, keep saying it, but I'm sure that the blessing of God will not be honest. I'm trying to get us in a position where God can bless us. It may seem disloyal, but unless we see this, we won't be blessed. No, I guess this is a good point because now I'm getting a little bit more clarity because you just said the church, right? Well, the church, you just threw me and all of us into this thing that we're going a wrong direction. We are having prayer meetings every morning. Many are seeking God. Millions of people are not falling into this worship of Trump. So it's almost like, again, we're thrown all under the bus for having a love for our nation, a love for our country, wanting God to bring righteousness back, whether it's through Trump, Pence, whoever it's through.

We're at a very serious time. I don't imagine Dietrich Bonhoeffer being very trying to find the mushy middle there in the 1940s. I don't see Martin Luther in front of the, what was it, the Holy Roman Empire?

What about the half the signers of the Declaration of Independence were ministers of the gospel? But today you say, oh, no, no, you're getting political. No, we're living out the gospel.

So here's where I'm thrilled it's going this direction because we're really bringing this out. You see, when you would actually say to someone that I know you respect that I'm looking for the mushy middle, I've literally risked my... No, I'm saying that's what I just heard about me. I've risked my life literally for Jesus and would do it in a heartbeat as the greatest joy and honor. I have lost everything. I've lost friends.

I have lost everything I had at times because I would not... There's not a drop of compromise, not a drop of compromise in my entire being. And when I risk alienating people by speaking the truth and then someone hears it as looking for the mushy middle, no, you didn't mean me, but you just threw that at me. See, this is why we've got to hear each other better and we're going to do it. I'm committed to hear and honor my brother because we're on the same side. We're going to do that. We'll be right back. We've got a few more minutes to get further clarity and bring things to the surface, which is so helpful and I so appreciate Pastor Shane being so open and honest as I've sought to be as well. So let me lay this out and then throw it back to you.

When you talk about mushy middle, I don't know anyone that fits in that class, no one I'm relating to that fits in that. I know people who have wept and wept and wept as they've seen the personality of Donald Trump, the words of Donald Trump, the style of Donald Trump bring deep division or deepen division and pain in America. I mean, godly people that have wept and wept over this at the same time they voted for him.

And I've been the same message from day one. He's not my savior, but he's my president. Jesus gets my heart, my life, my soul. President gets my vote. I wanted the whole world to identify me with Jesus and to the extent you identify me with Trump, then I've got off message and I've watched our evangelical witness get trashed in America and around the world because many of our evangelicals have become apologists for Trump. We who've been the character counts, morality matters, people for years, the values voters have seemed to have compromised. So I've been able to say, no, here's what we voted for him. These existential issues that we believe that he's the better man for. But here's where we differ and where we grieve. And for espousing that position, now somehow we've become the mushy middle side. And that baffles me, man.

I honestly don't get where that's coming from. Well, do we get part two because we still don't get to talk about the election fraud or any of that stuff? Anyway, let me. Yeah, let me just clarify. Yeah. Well, here's here's what's frustrating, I think, for me and many people. For example, in your video, you mentioned, you know, you kind of maybe didn't feel I don't know, there's some apprehension about Franklin Graham endorsing Trump because now people are saying I can never follow Franklin Graham again.

No, not enjoy it. Just to be clear, when I said that when he tweets out, I believe the president, et cetera, and then refers to one day as Joe Biden, president elect, but then basically just says Joe Biden. I said, hey, he's he's Franklin Graham. He's one of the most prestigious Christian leaders in the world.

He knows what he's doing. However, as an evangelist, when people hear his message, now a lot of them won't listen because they think he's a Trump defender, Trump supporter, et cetera, as opposed to, hey, he's just an evangelist for Jesus and he may vote a certain way. He never publicly endorsed.

But I endorsed one candidate once and realized that's a mistake. I can't do that because then people are going to hear that when I try to bring a larger message. So I just said, when you do it, if you feel to do it, he's Franklin Graham.

I'm not here to instruct him. But if you feel to do that and say, I believe in the president, I stand with the president, when you go to preach Jesus to someone, they're also going to have that baggage. That, to me, creates another problem. But but focus on the mushy middle. Please help me understand that.

Yeah, it's all connected because that's the point I'm getting at. And I get emails, you know, Shane, just stick to the word, you know, those kind of things. So what I mean by, you know, for example, with Franklin Graham, let's use that as one one example. You know, don't don't say anything about President Trump because I might hurt the gospel. And so he asked, OK, so does that mean he needs to be silent?

That's what I mean by the mushy middle. There's no he's he's not going to please these people. And I would say, is it more on the person who's these people hate Trump? And so they're mad that Franklin posted that. So now they say, Franklin, I'm not going to follow you anymore.

But really, that's the person's issue, not Franklin's issue. Now, granted, we don't want to damage the gospel. We don't want to. But it's almost like we're polarized in the end. You know, let's let's be Christians. But let's also not be promote Trump too much or support Trump too much. And that's what I mean by there's a mushy middle that people want us to try to find. And what's OK, but what's what's mushy about saying my message is Jesus, the cross, the Bible, scriptural principles.

I believe Trump is the best man for the job now between him and Joe Biden. And I support the Republican platform. But my message is Jesus.

Where's there a mushy middle there? I'm I I've been very vocal and open about who I voted for and why. And yet I've also overwhelmingly said, yeah, I don't like when he said that.

So I don't have access privately to the president to speak to and to share things. So for my own integrity, when he says something vicious and insulting and ugly about someone for integrity as a Trump voter. And you say, hey, I don't like that. I differ with that.

But here's why he has my vote. How is that a mushy middle? Well, in that situation, it's not my my point when I mentioned the mushy middle.

Again, we've got to keep this in context. I'm talking about different issues when when people are, you know, with the whole issue is on Beth Moore and agreeing, seeing the other side. Say say the liberal side, the left side, seeing the other side is not agreeing with the other side. It feels like people want us to not only see the other side, they want us to agree with the other side and agree with the right. So agreeing with the left and the right and not not offending anyone.

And there's that mushy middle that it feels like sometimes we're trying to find that balance. And just to be honest with you, not in your case, but in a lot of cases, I'm wondering if if people whose ministry are mainly supportive, because of being conservative, if they're kind of worried about upsetting, they're going to block my YouTube. There goes Facebook.

There goes my source of income. And they're not standing for the convictions. But they are trying to find that mushy middle of trying to appease their Christian audience, but also not upset the left too much because I have to keep my platform. And that's what it feels like right now as well. That might be happening. So hope that clarified the mushy middle.

Let me know. No. OK, that's again, I mean, it's so far into my thinking I even needed you to describe it because I can't even imagine it or relate to it or think of it. It's just so bizarre to me that anyone would calculate, as opposed to you obey the Lord and let the chips fall where they where they may. So so here's the question then. I want to see us blessed. Right. I want to see America blessed. And that means the church has to be revived. And that's the only way the nation could be awakened. So the political process is important. That's the biggest thing. But it's important.

And if there's been the stealing of an election, that's that's massive, massive, massive issue. Therefore, we keep praying for truth to triumph and come to the light. But since ultimately, if you locked us in a room and we were just told to pray for the next 48 hours, probably ninety nine percent of our prayers would be identical. We'd be saying amen to each other. So how do we how do I have your back? What do I need to do so that you know and perceive that I have your back as we move forward and that I'm not undercutting you?

I'm certain that undercutting James or Jack Graham or these other dear, fine brothers that I know and esteem. What do I need to do or say so that, you know, I'm not undercutting your heart and your stance? Well, I think what has happened, you know, where you mentioned that I don't I don't hear the other side as well.

Right. I'm just my side, which is this is probably a true assessment, something I need to work on. But on the other side, maybe in your case, we're trying hard to not only hear the other side, but agree with the other side. So we kind of throw in things that, you know, about the other side that maybe to appease them. And as it ends up hurting those of us who are solid believers.

So I don't know what that looks like. I know sometimes when I read the articles lately, they they kind of just kind of hurt, just hurt a little bit, kind of break my heart as far as you know. But that might be me again. I'm taking to prayer and fasting to the Lord. And, you know, but talk with James, talk with these other leaders.

And and I know Lou Engle felt this way as well with other things with Beth. And so there's somehow we're not. But how do you get on the same page with different views on, you know, if you need to express Trump ism or nationalism? I guess we just don't see that in the sense that is real. There are people making Trump savior, but it's a very small fraction of the Christian base. Yeah, it feels like it's becoming the whole base. And not only that, it's not only doing that. Here's what's to me more more dangerous is it's actually dividing the Christian base even more.

Yeah. And let me just say this to jump in. I've never it's never dawned on me to try to appease, quote, the other side. Why? Why would I have spent my whole life trying to speak the truth, regardless of cost or consequence? I don't even know if the other side knows I exist, whatever that other side is. Again, Beth Moore. All I was dealing with was words. Wasn't Beth Moore for against anything whatsoever?

That was never on my mind. I don't know if she even knows I exist, nor do I want her favor or anyone's favor, nor am I trying to get the ire of Michael Flynn. But I, as a servant of the Lord with the prophetic burden that he lays on my heart, is one that first and foremost sees the needs within the church. And the idea of if worshipping Trump, it's not that it's making him into a political messiah. Look, I heard from a major Christian leader, a colleague of mine, talked to a major Christian leader. And and this this Christian leader asked him just yesterday, who tell me one person that you trust right now in Washington is who do you trust? He said there's only one person I trust, one only. That's Donald Trump. That that stuff scares me. And and when it's the department, you know, William Barr is a bad guy now, whoever it is, they're now the bad guys.

And, you know, Barr's been courageous and he's been a hero in so many ways. So I see it as pervasive. I don't see his little fringe.

I see it as pervasive that there is a tremendous looking to a man. And I don't believe there would be this much fervor if the fight was for Mike Pence. So I'm I'm standing side by side with you against the radical left side by side to pray that where there's fraud, let it be exposed. Side by side, praying for awakening in the society and revival in the church. And in that sense, I got your back.

I'm your ally, your friend. What I'd say is there's something I'm seeing. There's something dangerous. And if we want God to bless us, just like when there was junk in Israel, God wanted to bless Israel. But they had to deal with that.

I'm desperate to see the church blessed so America can be blessed and have to speak to those things. But, hey, you've got the last 30 seconds. So over to you. 30 seconds.

Well, no, I think unless we had more time to flesh everything out with Barr, Deep State and the fraud and election, I think I think we're ended on a good note that, you know, just be seeking God, the heart of God, making sure we're not elevating man and making sure we're communicating with others. Yes. You know, and hey, what did you mean by that? Here's how I took it.

Instead of, you know, just getting in and holding it in. And that's that's why this conversation was so important. So, no, I thank you for that. And I'm hoping a lot of people benefit from it. Absolutely.

And I want the whole world to know Shane Idleman is a friend, colleague, man. I am I'm in your camp. I got your back. We're in this together.

And by God's grace, we're going to live to see a revival sweep this nation. God bless you, man. I love you. Thanks. Thank you. Bye bye.