An Interview on Challenging Conversations in the Church

We're going to have some challenging conversations, the type of questions folks are afraid to ask in church. We're going to talk about it.

I'm going to tell you a fun story in a moment, but first, phone lines are open, wide open, 866-34-TRUTH, 866-348-7884. Any subject under the sun you want to talk about. You can talk about sports if you want. You can talk about which dirt is best for growing your grass, whatever you want to talk to me about. I'm going to tell you why. We're opening the phones absolutely wide to any subject under the sun.

I can be of help 866-348-7884. And I'll tell you this funny story in a moment that will tie in with what's happening. We may have had a scheduling error today.

Either that or a guest is delayed that was going to be in studio with us. So hopefully, before the hour is out, I'm going to have a great conversation with a great guest about an important new book. But since he's not here now, either because of a delay getting here or a scheduling error on our part or his part or whatever, I've got free time now on the radio to go in any direction whatsoever. So always, I want to give you the opportunity to call in.

So I'm going to go to the phones momentarily and start taking some calls. But first, this funny story. A colleague of mine, a few years older than me, went to Wheaton College and did at least his undergrad work there. And there was a professor who was a very different kind of eccentric guy. He would wear a certain style of tie or suit because, you know, suit and tie your teaching there, especially back then, and it would be out of style.

And his philosophy was, well, I'll just keep wearing it until it comes back in style. So he was kind of his own man, but he was remarkably scheduled, remarkably scheduled. So literally every hour of his day, every waking hour was scheduled. He had a calendar and every hour was scheduled. Well, he came into class all excited one day and he said, he said, I had a free hour yesterday. Something happened in my schedule and I have free hour that was not scheduled, he said. So I decided to do something spontaneous, he said, and it was wonderful, he said. So from here on, I am going to schedule one hour every week for spontaneity. Seriously, it was scheduled one hour every week to do something on the spot, spontaneous.

So anyway, we got our little spontaneous thing as the phone lines are lighting up. And obviously we are in very, very serious days in terms of turmoil over the elections and the direction of the country. But the biggest thing and I'm saying this in all seriousness before I get to your calls on a wide range of subjects. The biggest, biggest, biggest thing is the state of the church. That is more important than who is inaugurated next month. That is more important than the balance in Congress or the Supreme Court.

Oh, these are mega important issues, mega, mega important, huge issues. But the biggest issue in terms of the direction and well-being of America is the state of the church. I believe that with all my heart and that, my friends, is something that is in our hands. In other words, you and I, as God's people, as God's children, can give ourselves afresh to him and say, here I am, send me, use me. We can pray like we've never prayed and share the gospel as if people's lives depended on it, which they do, and give ourselves to following the principles of God laid out in scripture in our homes and our personal lives and our families. As we do those things, friends, America can be shaken. So we keep praying for God's righteous outcome and for America to accept the righteous outcome of the elections.

But something even more important, because we've been talking about this a lot, obviously, in recent days, is the state of the church. All right, I'm going to take some calls, 866-34-TRUTH, and we'll start with Kevin in Moreno Valley, California. Welcome to the line of fire.

Hi, Dr. Brown. Thanks for having me. You bet.

I'm sorry? You bet. Oh, I just wanted to first say I'm kind of a huge fan. I started watching you a few months ago, and I've been able to grow spiritually, because of your content. I really wanted to thank you for it. And hopefully you'll be able to help me with a question that I have that came up discussing with my parents.

Well, I'm so glad, so glad that we've been of help to you. Yes, go ahead. Oh, so the question I have is about Ananias and Sapphira, the Book of Acts, how they sold their property and they wanted to donate the money. And, well, we know that the story ends with them dying before Peter because of how they didn't give the full profit.

So the question I have, or should I say my dad has, is how come they died for what they did, but there are other biblical figures that died for, I mean, didn't die for even greater sin? Right. So it's an excellent question, and here's the answer. That you have times when God has uniquely revealed himself, times when movements are being established, times when God is making known his ways. And at times like this, too much is given, much is required. So, for example, in the Book of Leviticus, if if you start reading in Chapter 8, Aaron and his sons are being set apart for the priesthood. Right. So the tabernacle has been built. This is now a sacred moment in Israel's history.

The dedicating of the first physical dwelling place where God will manifest himself among his people. Aaron is the high priest, that he is the high priest for God most on the entire planet. Right. With his his eldest sons, they're all being set apart now as priests. So you get to the end of the ninth chapter as you go through eight, nine, every other line, it's repeated over and over as the Lord commanded Moses, as the Lord commanded Moses, as the Lord commanded Moses, as the Lord commanded Moses. Right. One after another, after another, after another. And then they come to the end of this and then they offer up their sacrifices on the altar. Right.

And what does it say? Fire. Fire comes from the first.

This is a good thing. The end of the ninth chapter. Fire comes from the presence of the Lord and consumes the sacrifices. So God answers by fire and the people fall down and shout. Now, what happens immediately after the beginning of the tenth chapter?

Because there's no break in the Hebrew. It's the next thing that happens is the two eldest sons. Now, they, Nadav and Avihu, obviously so excited in the moment, they now offer unauthorized incense, contrary to the Lord's command. So you just said, is the Lord commanded, is the Lord commanded, is the Lord commanded. The fire comes, consumes, and now what comes next? They offer unauthorized fire, unauthorized incense, and the same fire comes from the same presence of the Lord and consumes them. And when Aaron is upset, Moses said, look, God said he was going to show himself holy.

So he's going to show himself holy by blessing our obedience or judging our disobedience. Now, as the months and years go on, things get so bad in the physical temple that you have homosexual prostitutes in the physical temple, that you have women weaving for Asherah, the goddess Asherah, in the temple, and judgment hasn't come, but when it finally comes, the temple is destroyed and the people are exiled. So at the beginning, it's almost like if you look at a bride in her white gown that the tiniest little stain will show, right?

But if she wore that gown every day for six months and was gardening and horse riding, the thing would be filthy and you wouldn't even see the stain and then the whole garment would be destroyed. So it's the same thing with Ananias and Sapphira. It's the very beginning. It's the church in its purity. The Holy Spirit has been poured out.

These are sacred moments. God is being glorified and he's saying, you don't mess with this. And it's a great lesson to the church. Hence, the chapter tells us that great fear came upon the whole church. Now, get to the book of Revelation, Revelation 2 and 3, and look at some of the sin that's being committed among the people of God and Jesus said, hey, I'm giving you time to repent, but you haven't. So it's often better when judgment comes swiftly to wake us up. It's almost like someone having a heart attack while they can still change things versus when they have a heart attack, it kills them.

So initially the thing is dealt with in a very personal way and then when sin becomes more casual, more the norm, it gets to the point where the whole nation ends up getting judged. So that should explain it for you, all right? Yeah, okay.

Yeah, that does make a lot of sense. All right, well, excellent. Dr. Brown, I do want to ask you one last thing. I'm sorry, I don't want to seem to be taking advantage, but I just remember that this is something that I see will be very important and I'm pretty sure a lot of listeners will appreciate the answer to this next question.

I want to ask you really quick. A friend came out to me a few nights ago and she asked me why, because I'm also of Jewish descent, but I am a Christian, and she asked me what did I mean whenever I said Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins. She couldn't wrap her mind around it and she wanted to fully understand it and I can't find a way to properly explain it.

It's one of those things where you know what it means, but you don't know how to explain it and I want to see if you could. Yeah, sure. So you could explain to her that God is just. Ask her if she would agree that certain crimes should be punished. You know, if a man rapes a woman, he should go to jail for that. If you defraud someone of all their income, you should pay fines and reimburse. In other words, everyone agrees that certain things must be punished. Murderers should not just go scot-free. So the human race, guilty before God, ultimately we deserve damnation.

But rather than God damn us in his love, his son said, I will take the place of all these people. I will pay for their guilt. So look at it like this. Look at it as if someone had a billion dollars on their credit card and everyone in your city was a million dollars in debt and was about to go to jail for the rest of their lives for fail failure to pay their debt. And the person with the credit card said, hey, I'll pay for it all.

I have that much to my account. So the son of God being so perfect and righteous said, hey, put all their guilt on my account. I will pay for their sins.

I will suffer in their place. So God could say, OK, I poured out justice. There was a payment for sin. We didn't let people go scot-free except it was my perfect son who took it.

So God can now turn around to us and say, hey, I'm going to have mercy on you. I poured out justice on my son. I'm going to have mercy on you. Kevin, make sure you sign up for my emails on my email list. When you do, you'll get a mini book, Seven Secrets of the Real Messiah.

That's at AskDrBrown.org. Seven Secrets of the Real Messiah. Read the secret of the atoning power of the death of the righteous. The atoning power of the death of the righteous.

That'll give you insight from a Jewish perspective. All right. Thanks for the call. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks, friends, for joining us on the line of fire. 866-34-TRUTH.

Phone lines wide open just because of an unexpected schedule change. And then, oh, a little less than an hour from now, we'll be back on YouTube. So that's Ask Dr. Brown, the Ask Dr. Brown YouTube channel. And we'll be doing our exclusive weekly Q&A. All right. And thank you for your contribution on our YouTube channel very much.

Simple OG life. We appreciate it. So we'll be back again a little less than an hour.

So 15 minutes after this broadcast ends, we'll be back on YouTube for our exclusive weekly Q&A chat. All right. Let us go to Dorothy in California. How do you how do you pronounce the name of your city? Tehachapi. Tehachapi. All right, I had the accent in the wrong place. Now I got it. Tehachapi.

Accent on the second syllable. Why do you have to have names like that? Well, obviously, nice heritage in that name.

But Tehachapi. OK. Go ahead. Nice to have you on. Well, first of all, I never call in to talk show. I mean, but this is written to me. And, you know, I agree with you what you said earlier about the state of the church is the most important thing. And it makes total sense that you're worrying about everybody, you know, making Donald Trump savior.

But, you know, I really think you might not be looking at it from the point of view of the average person. I talked to my husband about it and I said, you ought to call him. And I never called. Good.

I'm glad you did. Go ahead. Yeah. You know, Donald Trump has become a personal president to many of us. He's out there. He's got all his faults and his vulnerabilities.

And, you know, every time he flubs up, everyone knows it. But he's he puts himself he puts himself aside so that he can keep those communication lines going. Explain to me.

Explain to me. He puts himself aside. I mean, he you know, he takes all of this abuse. He gets abused constantly from the press. I mean, from every angle he gets social media, the press, the press getting everybody in America mad. I have friends that just hate him because they listen to CNN all the time and they just think he's the devil. So, I mean, he he knows all that.

But he still keeps Twittering away, you know, and telling us where he's going, taking press conferences. So he's become like family to a lot of us because he's so personal. We never had access to a president like that before. So I think that, you know, he's worked so everybody knows how hard he's worked to keep his promises. You know, yeah, he's got a lot of faults and things, but everybody sees them.

Everybody knows them. He's just a big target. And I think it's taken a lot of courage for him to remind everybody of, say, the murder of the unborn. And he's encouraged our nation to worship God.

You know, and now I think people are kind of over the top because is there a possibility that this election was stolen from him? You know, how have how do people feel when evidence like that just seems kind of building and building? So I just wanted to say that, that, you know, you know, basically when you say making him savior, you're you're telling people that they're violating God's first commandment.

Don't put any strange gods before him. Well, I mean, that's really hurtful. It's very hurtful. You know, so so let me say this, and I really appreciate what you said, and I'm so glad you called. Number one, I've said that every one of us should affirm with all their heart, all their soul, Donald Trump is not our savior. When I say that, I have people getting furious with me, reacting emotionally.

I'm like, why? You could put my name in that any human being's name, Barack Obama, Joe Biden, anybody in the world, Franklin Graham, you name it. And we all shout, yes, that person's not our savior. When I say Trump is not our savior, people get furious with me.

It's like, why are you getting mad when John Voight said he's the only man that can save America? And when people say it's Trump or the destruction of America, then we're looking to him the wrong way. That's that's my concern.

In other words, whether he's there. There are other people that could be good candidates that could get good jobs done. You know, that that if Trump wasn't here, that that there are others that could move forward and have a good conservative agenda and be pro-life and pro-religious liberty.

I'm telling no and all. It's only Trump's like something's dangerous with that. When he was saying months ago, the only way I could lose this election is if it's rigged.

And this is during covid. This is and they knew the polling data, you know, is that could be more difficult because before covid he was going to be in by a landslide. It's like that concerns me. That's setting people up that they'll believe him.

They don't. They they question the Department of Justice now. They question every branch of government because he says, I'm telling you, it's like, all right, remember when Ted Cruz beat him in 2016 in Iowa, he said it was rigged.

That Cruz stole the election. That's 2016. So this has been the rhetoric.

And as far as the target. Yeah, I understand that. But remember, he started the fights. I mean, go back to Ted Cruz. He called, said his father, Rafael, was involved with the assassination of JFK. You know, outrageous kind of stuff.

Damaging, you know, stuff that can provoke all kinds of anger and hatred. So there's is a mix. I voted for him. I voted for him twice.

Right. I, I, I have been on national TV and explain why he's the better vote. You know, him versus Biden. And I've even written articles explaining why evangelicals still support him, despite all his flaws. And I use this example that you're a nice Christian family. Your neighbor is a mixed martial artist. So he's a, you know, like a street fighter, except doesn't the cage for money and, you know, drinks and has parties and all that. And a violent guy. And then your children start getting harassed by this this new family that hates you and hates Christians. And one night you're they show up at your house, this other family, and they got knives and they got baseball bats and they're ready to kill you. And your neighbor comes out, jumps on all of them, gets beat up and cut at the same time, but subdues them. Tells you never come back here and touch. My neighbor's going to kill you. Well, you feel kind of loyalty to that person.

It's like, hey, he fought for us. I still don't like a lot of stuff. Right. So I understand.

I've written this. I understand it. The danger is that we put too much trust in him now, that we look to him as if it's him or we lose democracy or it's it's him or the pro-life movement is over or it's him. And that's just false.

That's not the case. And and part of our support for him has been such that we make excuses. We look the other way. We we don't realize it because he comes under such attack. We feel we have to defend him. And I find all the time because we reach millions of people and I'm interacting on social media a lot. All the time, people are far more sensitive about Donald Trump than Jesus. You can someone can insult the Lord and so on. It's like, hey, you don't understand.

We're praying for you. You say a word against Donald Trump. You're a traitor. You're a liberal.

You're a communist. It's like, whoa, something's dangerous there. So just like there's Trump derangement syndrome that we see in the media where people go crazy against him, it's like you've lost your mind. The media's lost their mind the way they attack him. You have this loyalty thing, on the other hand, called the cult of Trump. And I see it on both sides. So as someone who voted for him and who wants to see the best for America and is praying for the truth to come out for the elections, it also behooves me to say that the church don't put your trust in flesh and blood. And you never see if you look in the New Testament, you never see the leaders, the Christian leaders looking to people, looking to earthly authorities the way many of us are looking to Trump.

So that's that's what I've sought to convey. Well, nothing. I mean, we certainly wouldn't want to put our trust in a person. But if God put him there, which I do believe he did, then at least we can honor him.

And of course, defending him to the point where someone's not offended by being disloyal to Jesus as opposed to disloyal to Trump. I mean, that's outrageous. Right. So we should honor him as the president. Absolutely. Right. And when there are lies told about him and junk like that, then we should correct that.

I'm all for it. Absolutely. And I voted for him. So isn't that enough? Yes, it is. And I do know you're coming from a caring heart.

I knew I know what kind of a man you proved yourself to be. But I believe that a lot of people are feeling as though you are accusing them rather than suggesting that this might be a problem. And that's what my concern is.

You know, nothing's worse than being accused unjustly. And it sounds I know you're not a poet, you know, and it sounds more like that than it does a suggestion that you're concerned about it. And this is something you don't want the church to fall into.

That's all I want to do. Well, I appreciate I appreciate that. And listen, I nothing falls on deaf ears here. You know, I listen, I think I consider I will say this, that I have no question whatsoever from my interaction, personal interaction with people that many have fallen into idolatry. So I am saying that.

But many others haven't. And if you think I'm wrongly accusing you know, absolutely not. If the shoe fits, wear it. And if not, then we're on the same side. So, Dorothy, thank you. And I'm glad your husband encouraged you to call. It's good that we had this conversation and made my heart clear.

And if it hasn't been clear, then hopefully it's a little clearer. But thank you so much, especially since you don't normally call. I appreciate it. 866-342. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-342. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. I am sitting in studio with Jason Jimenez. He has put together a really important, much needed brand new book.

I was just telling him before we started with some amazing endorsements, starting with Jim Daly, President Focus on the Family. It's called Challenging Conversations, a Practical Guide to Discuss Controversial Topics in the Church. Jason, I don't want to know why you wanted to write this book.

Why did this book need to be written? Always coming from you, it's always a great question. So thank you for having me.

You've always been a dear friend and great supporter. The answer to that question is, I wrote the book because Christians don't know how to have conversations respectfully. We dodge them as much as possible. You and I have been doing this long enough to where, when it comes to a lot of the controversial things that we're seeing today, most people are avoiders or they're aggressors.

Just listening to that conversation before the break, Michael, you see how your composure, your respect, how she was being, even though she disagreed and she was kind of laying out her case, you listen to her. And that is a lost art these days. People tend to not listen, they tend to attack. And so, yes, there's a lot of issues out there that are very controversial. But also the tone and the rhetoric we're seeing, we need to look back at what the Scripture teaches us.

And the basis of the book comes from Ephesians 4-15, speak the truth in love. Why do you think so many Christians are afraid to have conversations? We either get defensive or we get angry or we avoid them. Is it simply just that we don't have the answers and we're not secure where we stand? Not having the answers is definitely one of the reasons why, but also apathy. A lot of people just don't care. Nowadays a lot of people don't care whether or not somebody knows the truth or why they believe what they believe. They're too busy, they're too wrapped up into their life. There's also fear issues, fear of losing a friendship. So there's a lot of things that go into relationships, but sadly with the two growing generations of Millennials and Gen Z, what we're seeing is there's a level of apathy. Where they're like, look, that's the privatization of your faith and what you believe and why you believe it.

That's between you and whatever deity you worship. I don't care about that. I'm focusing on something else. So I think with the fear growing with the apathy, it reasons as to why people oftentimes don't want to get involved in these controversial topics. A few weeks ago we were having dinner with some of our family, our oldest granddaughter who's 19 and in her second year at Liberty University.

She was in town with her roommate who's a couple years older. And I was talking about challenges to the faith, things that kids their age feel and objections and issues. And the first thing I said was most don't even care. Most nonbelievers, they don't even care. So when you mention apathy, that's obviously a big issue.

Friends, again, the name of the book, Challenging Conversations, Jason Jimenez. Jason, how old are you? I'm 41. Forty one. All right. So I'm 65.

So you're right in between my eldest granddaughter and my age, actually a little bit closer to her age. But you work with a lot of young people. How critical is it that we have these conversations? Oh, it's huge because we saw Jesus do it all the time. I'm going through the book of Acts right now in our ministry and on our podcast. And just today we're covering how Paul himself communicated these issues in front of Festus. Remember King Agrippa and how eloquent he was and how he provoked himself through the power of the Holy Spirit to speak the truth and do it in such a way that was very provocative and compelling. Even to the point where Festus ends the conversation because I think he was being convicted of the evidence that Paul was bringing about the resurrection. But needless to say, Michael, as you know, these conversations are important because this is one way we are to convey the truth of Jesus Christ. And we are to be light in the midst of the darkness. Right now we're dealing with all this political stuff. You're getting calls, we're all getting bombarded by a lot of these things.

Racism, issues regarding abortion, issues regarding politics, issues regarding LGBT issues. We have to be showing people what the Gospel says about these things, what the Bible explicitly teaches about these things. We can't assume. I think oftentimes people assume, because we live in America, people know what the Bible says and they don't. I remember talking to Professor Darryl Bach, my colleague at Dallas Theological Seminary, and he said, you know, years ago we used to be able to tell people it's true because it's in the Bible. Now we have to tell them it's in the Bible because it's true. There's not an assumption of the truthfulness or reliability of Scripture. In fact, Scripture is often looked at in negative context or it's a bigoted book about a bigoted God. So the reality is young people are leaving the church, older people are struggling with questions, and we should be welcoming and encouraging the questions. Now, Jason, does your book Challenging Conversations say what we have to talk about or does it equip people to have the conversations? It equips people to have the conversation first and then addressing key controversial topics that are taking place in the church. Yes, we care about what's happening outside the church and the culture today, but what we're finding is Christians themselves are divided.

There's a lot of shattered dreams. There's a lot of people who feel marginalized. There's a lot of people who feel they're being judged harshly or hypocritically.

So I'm teaching people, look, this is what the Bible says and how we're to respond. So, for example, tactic number one, relate to the person. That's a common thing, finding common ground, building rapport with an individual. Number two is you want to be able to investigate, meaning you want to analyze the conversation.

Listen to them, ask the right questions so you can get a good understanding of their background and why they believe what it is they believe and why they're so passionate about what it is they believe. And finally, you have to harmonize. What that means is you have to translate the conversation because, Michael, oftentimes what happens in the end of a conversation, if it goes that far, people just maybe get offended.

They end the conversation and oftentimes they end the relationship, but what I'm telling people to do, just practically speaking, no matter what topic, with what person, with whatever time that you have with them, is you want to ask the question. Number one is where do we agree? And number two, where do we differ and why?

And three, where do we go from here? So you could apply that in marriage. You could apply that in a conversation on a college campus, but also you could apply these conversations like abortion, LGBT issues, divorce, and remarriage.

And that's what I try to equip the Christian in the book. You know, I think of interactions I've had with people and it's clear we're just passing each other like ships in the night. We're all we're in our own echo chambers and then we're just reinforcing our own views.

Whereas what we should be doing is loving our neighbor, first listening. So tell me how you would have answered this question, Jason. Dan Brown, famous for The Da Vinci Code and his other mega best selling novels, when you read them, there's always an attack on God, organized religion, the church, Catholicism, whatever. So you read between the lines, you realize something happened to this guy growing up. Right.

So I go online to check on this and it's readily known. He tells a story that his mother was Episcopalian, played organ in the church, his father more scientific, mathematically oriented. He related to both. But as he got to be about 13, he was having a conflict. And does what the Bible says line up with science? So according to him, he went and talked to the Episcopal priest at his church. He's around 13 years old and said, I'm reading the Bible and it seems that science contradicts what's written in the Bible. And according to him, the priest answered him and said, good boys don't ask questions like that. And he walked out of church and walked away from religion and God. So let's just say it happened like that. What would have been the right response from that Episcopal priest?

The right response would have been, first off, thanking him for taking the time to have a conversation with him, to trust him as a source that he can, as a young person, look up to. That's important. Hebrews 13, we are to imitate our leaders, their faith, to consider, the Bible says, their outcome of living. And so when someone says something like that, that's pretty devastating. I mean, there's countless people you and I can think of that were once supposedly walking faithfully before God or going to school to become a pastor or a theologian, or they want to be a Christian writer. And then something happens and it hurts that person.

It scars them or wounds them for whatever reason. And so I would say that the right answer would have been thanking him, saying, we are a place where we ask these type of questions. We address the kind of doubts that we have as human beings, and we are to seek God for the wisdom that we need to get through whatever situation or conflict that we have in our life. That would have been the right course of action.

And unfortunately, it was not the case when it came to Dan Brown. Got it. And then when you press it further, what if I don't have the answer?

Yikes, I've wondered about this myself. I don't know how to answer these things. How do I avoid pushing the person away? Is it that I say, hey, let's study this together? What would be the right approach? Because many times we are approached with things.

We don't have the answer. So we shut down or we get defensive or we rebuke the person. So if I don't have the answer and obviously get the book Challenging Conversations, you'll get a lot of the answers. What's the right approach?

A youth pastor, a parent? When someone comes with a question they don't have an answer to? The first thing we don't want to do is make them feel marginalized.

I think that happens a lot. We don't want to scold them. I tell people, Michael, in the book, you can critique a person's point of view but just don't criticize the individual. And oftentimes if you come down on somebody belittling or that's a stupid question or I'm so much older than you and this is why you should believe.

Even being forceful. Even if they do ask a question and you come off being very dogmatic to them and not understanding where the question's coming from, that misses most of the issue. I think sometimes what we do is we get quick to answer the question without understanding the backdrop or the background of the individual. And so I always encourage people, especially people that are listening that are pastors. Michael, you and I know this and this is something we've learned even from you.

You like to ask questions. It's not just answering the question and moving on but caring for the individual just like Jesus did. There was a lot of questions that people that were looking for him had but he cared about their story and I think that that's what we need to do. And lastly, I'd say this. Don't just answer the question and then just move on. Find ways where the Holy Spirit is using you to make a difference in that person's life forth, you know, like ongoing.

And a lot of times people don't do that. They don't take the time to actually lead to a form of discipleship. So as a pastor through the years, what I've always tried to do is if people are in my sphere of influence, how am I putting myself out there to make myself available? Not just to ask any type of question but ask a question that can grow into a relationship. And that's what I'm looking for because there's a lot of young people right now who've never ever been discipled and they don't even know where to look to. So by asking questions can lead to something greater and that's what I want people to open their eyes to and that's why we need to have these conversations.

Got it. Friends, the book Challenging Conversations, Jason Jimenez. We're going to have some conversations in a moment other side of the break starting with a call from Estonia about COVID and trusting God versus precautions. This is conversations we have to have.

So we're going to have some of these conversations in a moment. But Jason, what's the best place for folks to get the book? The best place is obviously Amazon. But people can actually go to the main websites called challengingconversations.org and there's all these different outlets of where they can get the book. Because some people don't like to get the book on Amazon. They want to support Baker or Christian Book Distributions or something like that. And also by the way, Michael, there's videos and a free study guide that people can watch by going to challengingconversations.org. Alright, yeah.

Publishers are doing this a lot now and that's why I asked. So challengingconversations.org. Check it out. Find out more about the book.

But then when you order, then you get all these other free benefits with it. So we'll be right back and we're going to go to some calls and have some challenging conversations with Jason. It's The Line of Fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural and spiritual revolution. Get into The Line of Fire now by calling 866-342. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

We're sitting here in studio with Jason Jimenez. We could talk for hours and it would be enriching and enlightening. But the good thing is you can get him for hours right in your own home teaching you and explaining and helping and mentoring with his book, Challenging Conversations to Practical God to Discuss Controversial Topics in the Church. Here's how about this?

Part one, Challenging Conversations about Mental Health, Substance Abuse and Pornography. Oh, we don't have that problem in our church. Right. Yeah, exactly. So the degree of issues that are there and look, not everyone's trained.

So you specialize, you focus on things as I have. So here you're able to to help people know, hey, don't don't run from this because it may be your your teenage daughter. It may it may be your husband.

It may, you know, it may be your youth leader. I mean, these these are real life issues. Yeah. Depression. It's a problem in the church. Porn is a problem in the church.

Substance abuse. That's just part one. Yeah. All right. Let's let's have some challenging conversations.

We'll start in Estonia. Preet, thank you for calling the line of fire. What's your question?

Hello, Dr. Brown. Thank you for taking my question. We had an incident in our church recently. The government tightened the rules of wearing masks and so on. And it was strongly suggested that public meetings, people would wear the mask. So our ushers got the instructions from one elder of a church that they should have the masks ready if somebody is asking.

And in the Sunday meeting. So but our pastor thought that the elder told ushers that they would offer the mask to the people, you know, but that they just should have them ready. So anyway, the pastor got quite angry and told from the pulpit that it was not his instructions, you know, to offer the mask and so on. And also said that how can we be the light of the world if we are afraid of the virus like the world is. And then the examples were given also like John G. Lake, you know, who put this plague on his hand and it died under the microscope and so on.

And yeah, so this and also it was told that this anger came like under the anointing sort of like and so on. And I wanted to ask you how do you reconcile the idea of walking in divine health and believing God for protection and at the same time not taking the preventative measures like wearing the mask and so on. Got it. So I'm going to answer from my perspective.

But Jason, first, how do you respond to that one? Let's not even worry about the legal issues. Do you listen to the government or not? Is it overreach?

But just practical. Am I walking in faith and trusting God? If I'm saying everyone in the church should wear a mask and socially distance?

What's your take on that? I actually think that it's being more sympathetic when you wear a mask in front of people who are afraid of the virus. Being afraid of the virus doesn't mean that you don't have faith. And when you start quoting scripture in a sense of using the Bible as a remedial sense to fight the virus, it's actually inconsistent. There are times where people are healed of their diseases and sicknesses and there's other times are not. Just like when we're having to deal with the influenza, you wash your hands. Just because I wash my hands so that I don't get sick doesn't mean that I don't have faith.

When I get in the car and wear my seatbelt, it doesn't mean that I don't have faith, that God's going to protect me in the car. As a matter of fact, when you look at Paul the Apostle, a man who actually had the gift of healing and healed numerous people who don't even know the count. But we know that he ministered and healed many people and cast out many demons. And yet we see that when he was before Festus in the book of Acts, for two years they've been falsely accusing him and found no proof of his guilt.

And yet here he is day after day defending himself and he finally appeals to Caesar as a Roman citizen. Now remember prior to this in Acts chapter 23, guess what happened? He was actually saved from the ambush when they took 40 days of fasting, 40 plus men remember. And they said that we will not eat and drink until we kill Paul.

God intervened and saved him. Now fast forward, if he was going to go back to Jerusalem, there was a high chance that Paul was going to be killed. But he appeals to Caesar to avoid another ambush because he knew they were plotting to do that. Did that mean that Paul wasn't trusting God a second time to go back to Jerusalem and say, well you protect me the first time, he's going to protect me the second time?

No, he was using rationale and he was looking at the evidence before him and he was using common sense. And I think often times we miss that. This is common sense for someone to say, let's wear a mask when we have a lot of people gathered together so that we don't spread the germs and also bringing security to other people who are more vulnerable to the virus. Right, right. Great answer. I love the in-depth thoughts about Paul there. What I would just add, first, amen to that. Second, there's the principle of love my neighbor, right? So I don't want my church to be known as the church that doesn't care about their neighbor. I don't want my church to be known as the one that spreads the virus in the community. So by all means, again, everyone has to work this out personally, but it's not anti-faith, that's love. And then let's say that you have a child, right, and your child gets a bad cold, right, and it's Sunday morning, well, you keep your child home instead of bringing them to the nursery to be practical, right, to not infect the other kids. And that's what it says in Proverbs 22 that a foolish man sees disaster and runs ahead and is punished. A shrewd person sees it and avoids it. So it's just practical wisdom, walking in love.

Now, we don't want to walk in fear, right, but you don't overcome fear by presumption. As for John G. Lake, yeah, that's a miraculous story. It's an extraordinary one. But bear in mind also that his own wife died in Africa, South Africa.

He went there with his wife and seven children and five years later came back without his wife because she had died. So they're still human beings, right? So you want to be honoring of your pastor, but say, hey, why don't we just walk in love? And isn't this wisdom? And I also know in the States, documented cases of pastors getting up and saying, even using the John G. Lake example or saying, you know, God's bigger than this virus and they are now dead.

They died of the virus. Right. So right. Yeah, that's yeah. Those are our thoughts on it. All right. Oh, thank you so much for these answers.

They're really helpful. And the key. Yeah. Look, obviously your pastor is trying to do the right thing and there's pressure, you know, but this is, I hope, practical wisdom. And thank you for the call from Estonia. God bless you, brother. Thank you.

God bless. Yeah. Yeah. Jason, isn't this interesting how there are issues affecting the whole world and the church should have answers, should it not?

Yeah. Well, you know, what's sad, too, is we were kind of joking in a way just to try to make light of it to some degree. But now you have maskless Christians versus masked Christians.

You know what I mean? It is becoming a divisive topic now. And some people are judging churches that are open partially and wearing masks and thinking that they're not boldly proclaiming the gospel or they're allowing big government to infringe upon their religious freedoms. I actually wrote an article saying I agree with John MacArthur and Andy Stanley. John MacArthur said we're holding services. The government's overreaching. And Andy Stanley said we're not holding services for the rest of the year publicly because we want to work with our government. I said that they both in their situations are trying to do the right thing. And you have to accept that.

All right. How about a mildly controversial political call? Again, the book Challenging Conversations.

Jason Jimenez. Check it out. A challenging conversations dot org.

Let's go right over to Charlotte, North Carolina. Norman, you're on the line of fire. Thank you for taking my call. My question is with regards to I'm not sure if you're familiar with it or not, but a couple of weeks back, there was a video going around of Paula White praying on behalf of President Trump. I guess, you know, praying for for the truth to come out for him to basically to win reelection and calling calling for angels from Africa and other parts of the world. Yes. So my question about that is, is one is that should should Christians that support Trump, should that give them calls for for alarm that she is considered his spiritual adviser? And and if that is the case, what does that say about everything prior to, you know, what does that say about his presidency up until this point? OK, got it. Jason, I mean, I got a ton to say, but I want to hear from you first.

I'll say this is we only got like two and a half. Yeah. Thanks for the question. You know, I mean, first off, we pray for for Paula White. I think that calling certain angels out in certain areas, I don't necessarily see that in scripture, though I do see in spiritual warfare that there's designated areas where we do see demons are placating certain areas and certain angels are coming to bring relief, particularly in Daniel chapter 10. So not that she was citing these verses to support what she was saying. I do think prophetically what she was proclaiming, I just don't see that in scripture.

And I think that there is concern there has been concern. I would say, Michael, my part of seeing somebody like that that's been close to the president and the Christian perspective, giving him guidance and support. But that does not mean that even in the midst of, I believe, some of the aberrant teaching, Apollo White does not mean that she was not guiding him respectfully and giving him some godly counsel. So when you see her giving these prophetic words from the pulpit, thus saith the Lord, I don't think that that was prophetic at all. Got it.

Yes. So I'm going to be very much in harmony, Norman, with Jason and say, number one, if you're going to pray prayers like that, pray in private because you broadcast them and it brings a lot of reproach. That's one thing. A second thing is she probably has had a lot of good stuff to say to him. And then there are aspects of her theology that to me are fringe charismatic that I would hope she's not influencing him with. I can say, though, there are a lot of fine evangelical leaders, people of real integrity, solid in the word, who have been close to the president and have tried to speak into his life. So she's certainly not the only one. If she was the only one, I'd be very concerned because of aspects of theology that I would consider flaky or fringe.

But then again, I'm sure there's a lot of good stuff that she's brought her encouragement. But I, I under no circumstances would pray for Trump to be elected or Biden to be elected. I'll vote my conscience. And then I pray, God, your will you bring about your plan. And if we're concerned about fraud, you bring about a righteous outcome. So I don't agree with aspects of the prayer that were prayed. But I think Trump is ultimately his own man for better or for worse.

And I wish some of the people that I know that that have been close to him have been able to make a greater impact. Write the book Challenging Conversations. Go to ChallengingConversations.org. Check it out or just hop over to Amazon. Order it.

E-books out as well. All right. Awesome. Get hold of it. I'm holding my hand. It's a great book.