Was Norman Dale Good?

This is The Drive with Josh Graham Podcast. We are killing it online. Tune into The Drive weekday afternoons 3 to 7 on WSJS.

So glad to have you on this Thursday Drive. It's WSJS News Talk Sports for the Triad. We're last night, Wake Forest lost to Virginia. And there's the basketball discussion you can have why Wake Forest has dropped the last couple of games. Games they probably should have won at NC State and at home against Virginia. But that's not the conversation it seems most people who care about the Demon Deacon program are having today.

We need to talk about Steve Forbes. Because that's what Wake fans are talking about. This is no longer an algorithm where it just seems like a small minority are loudly talking about this. No, Wake was booed by a smattering of fans at the Joel last night going into the locker room when they trailed Virginia by 11 points. And it is a flood of people now on social media that are thinking that Steve Forbes has had enough time if he doesn't make the tournament. Because it does look like that last night cost them. They looked like a tournament team before last week.

Now they might have played themselves off the bubble. And the drought would continue, Wake having not even made the first four since 2017. First off, the frustration is perfectly understandable. Just like the frustrations understandable from North Carolina fans when we talked about this a couple of weeks ago. Why North Carolina should not and would not let go of Hubert Davis. And Carolina fans didn't want to hear it. Their standard was so high. Hubert's not meeting the standard.

We need to do something different. And then, lo and behold, earlier this week we learned that he signed a contract extension last year. He's not going anywhere. He's going to be the coach for North Carolina next season. And Steve Forbes is going to be the coach at Wake Forest. Wake Forest is not going to fire Steve Forbes. So starting there, if you think that's something that could happen, let me break the news for you.

It's not. They're not going to fire Steve Forbes. But if you're of the opinion that they should move on or they have to move on, let me give the counter to that. These are the reasons why. Three big reasons why Steve Forbes, he's not on the hot seat and probably should not be on the hot seat. Number one being, and this is probably the biggest reason, he's not Danny Manning.

Steve Forbes, he's not Jeff Bizdelic for that matter too, but let's just look at the guy who preceded Steve. Steve is 28 games over.500 in his five seasons at Wake. Danny Manning was 33 games under.500. Danny's best year in his six seasons was a 10th place finish in the ACC, nine league wins and 19 wins overall. Steve is about to have his third top five ACC finish with at least 10 ACC wins in the last four years and 19 wins overall, at least over the last four straight years. Danny also got six years, as mentioned.

So surely Steve deserves at least six, right? You can't fire Steve Forbes a year with a sample size a year smaller than the guy that was 33 games under.500, can you? But you might be saying, well Josh, the expectations have gone up. Steve built up those expectations and he had not met them. He has perennially, year in, year out, failed to meet expectations.

By what metric? See, this is actually, you could argue, and I would, the first season that Wake has not met the pre-season expectations set before them. I went through and pulled the last five ACC pre-season pulls. In his first four years he exceeded where he was placed in the pre-season. The first four years he exceeded where he was picked in the pre-season in the actual standings by the end of the year. This year he was picked to finish third, and he still might have a top five finish. This isn't like Pittsburgh having expectations after almost getting in last year, probably should have gotten in, and now they're going to play Tuesday likely in Greensboro or in Charlotte where the ACC tournament is this year, and they have an under.500 league record.

That's not what they've done here. This failed season that Wake Forest is going through right now, if you view it as a failure, they're still relevant. This is the beauty of being on the air in the Triad for seven years now, longest running local sports talk show in the history of the Triad, we're happy about that, we're proud of that. Is that we remember what the end of Danny Manning looked like, the final two seasons of Danny Manning, and how little people cared, and nobody talked about Wake, certainly not nationally. People do, because of the way that Steve Forbes has elevated the floor of this program, which is a far greater accomplishment than any failure you can use to knock them. So you can acknowledge that there have been games that they probably should have won that could have helped them get into the tournament, while not going as far to say that that outweighs the pros of what Steve has done.

This is the last piece, the last reason here. Wake Forest has to remember who they are, and what they are not, and what they are not, is a blue blood. Please stop talking about the 90s. Please stop talking about, oh, we gotta get back to the Tim Duncan, Randolph Childress days, that's what we need to do. You sound like Nebraska football fans who still believe that Matt Ruhl or somebody could take him back to what Tom Osborne did. Not happening. Well, it still probably could at Wake Forest in terms of success in March, but the level of dominance that they had, that's probably not happening again.

Stop talking about Pat Kelce. He's paying players that are red-shirting for him what Wake is paying starters. Louisville, their best year last decade, was winning the national bleeping championship. Wake's best year last decade was getting to the first four.

First four. Know who you are, know who you aren't as well, and when you're not a blue blood, don't fire a good basketball coach. A coach that you probably wouldn't have been able to get, let's go back in history, if you weren't the only high major job to come open during the pandemic in 2020.

So you had a wider net, a wider pool of candidates than you would have any other cycle, including this year. You should follow examples set in the league by Clemson and Florida State, where Brad Brownell, he made the tournament his first year, but then he missed out six straight years. Six straight years without making the tournament and they kept him seemed like a good decision.

But by the logic of some in the Wake community, oh, you got to let him go. Can't miss the tournament five straight years, even though you inherited a dumpster fire. Leonard Hamilton didn't make the tournament his first seven seasons. And you might think, well, Florida State was a different program than Wake Forest. Florida State, the previous decade, went to four NCAA tournaments. Wake Forest, again, one first four appearance.

The first four didn't exist in the 90s. Obviously, it would not have been a good move to move off of Leonard Hamilton, just like it isn't a good move to move off of Steve. Even if you don't believe he's the guy, you might think it's probably wiser to at least see it through just in case it's a Brownell or Leonard Hamilton situation, rather than rebooting and risking reverting back to what you were with Biz Delic or Danny Manning, because remember, it could always get worse. Those are the reasons why Steve Forbes isn't on the hot seat, and he shouldn't be. On X, at WSJS Radio, if you want him.

That's why we're streaming video in addition to YouTube and Twitch. Will Dalton, he's the executive producer of the show. WD and I didn't leave Joel Coliseum last night till when? 1230? It was about 1230. It was a late night for us. But hey, I had my putter, so I was rocking and rolling.

It was a great night for me. Make sure you're subscribed to the podcast, to the YouTube channel. The Carolina Panthers are picking number eight in the draft. They need a defensive player.

They need to help a Jiro Evaro out. And you would think, this being the strong defensive draft that it is, that pick is earmarked for an outside linebacker, edge rusher type, maybe even a corner, D-lineman. That's what you're going to do. But are we so sure about that?

You sure about that? The Carolina Panthers could be tempted to draft an offensive player. If they truly are going best player available in their evaluations, there is a scenario they go offense.

Don't forget they have a young head coach that calls the offensive plays, and Dave Canales even admitted this week it's hard sometimes to not get greedy and think about, quote, his offense. From a head coach standpoint, I have to make sure I switch up who I'm watching in what order. I'll make sure I watch all the corners. Then I can flip over to some receivers and make sure I get back to watching the defensive line so that my brain doesn't just start going down that rabbit hole of how good can I make my offense. This is a team we have to build here.

We have to be ready to be the best available player wherever that's at. Is that difficult? Definitely.

Definitely is. And also, just humbly, it's a learning process for me. It's difficult.

It's a learning process. Not just to think about the offense. Don't forget how they went full bore fixing the offense last year. All this money for the two offensive guards and you trade for Deontay Johnson and three of your top four picks in the draft for offensive guys. I mean, the Panthers replaced their head coach to find somebody just to help Bryce Young. That's what it was about. Not knocking it, but that's what you did.

Are you going to be tempted to keep going in that direction? Because as all that was happening, out goes Frankie LuVu. You trade Brian Burns. You lose defensive talent. If Carolina were to take an offensive player at number eight, there really is only one player that Carolina might be tempted to go with. And that's Penn State tight end Tyler Warren. Because they don't need a quarterback. Don't need a running back after just extending Chuba Hubbard and drafting a running back in the second round last year.

Don't need a tackle, fortunately. And there isn't a receiver that's worth taking in the top ten. So there's Tyler Warren right there. You need some help at tight end. Ian Thomas, Tommy Trimble impending free agents right now.

J.T. Sanders was a fourth round draft pick even though he had some nice moments towards the end of last year. If he was there on the board and Carolina was picking, Tyler Warren or Jalen Walker, let's say, are we sure that the offensive coach and Dave Canales doesn't nudge and say, Hey, Tyler Warren could really help rise. We need to bring in Tyler Warren.

But at least we don't have sound of Dave Canales gushing over Tyler Warren and in the oh wait, we do have that sound. I think he's an incredible player. I think speaking of versatility, here's a guy that can play close to the interior and play physical because of his sheer size. But then he does create some mismatches in the pass game.

You can give him, you can hand him the ball. So if you look at some of the teams that are using tight ends for QB sneak, that would be a weapon for somebody in a short yardage situation to utilize him. So he's a very interesting prospect. Very interesting.

Very interesting prospect. Here's what should, where you should find solace if you want the Panthers to go defense. It's that Dan Morgan is a defensive guy.

Our guy, Dan Morgan, former Panthers great linebacker. We have fun. You know what he finds fun? Doing yoga at four in the morning while cameras watch him. He finds that fun. Showing how deep he is while reading books before the sun comes out. That's what he likes to do. Probably enjoys long walks on the beach and also enjoys watching linebackers hit people. He enjoys that. And Carolina doesn't have a lot of those guys.

And they need more. And he even said when it was announced that Ejiro Evaro would be returning, they need to do more to help Ejiro. And the best way you can help Ejiro and help this defense, in a strong defensive draft, taking a defensive player with the number eight pick.

Will, can you dig it? It's got to be a defensive player. I don't want anything else.

If it was Tyler Warren. You don't need a tight end right now. Yeah, you don't. You do need a defensive player. But remember what you're saying right now.

Because you watch. They're going to add somebody at those edge positions in free agency. You're going to be like, whoa, we don't have to. We have that position.

It's okay. This guy's better. No. We're not folding on this. If it comes down to Jalen Walker or Tyler Warren, I want Jalen. Yes, please. I want Jalen Walker. I want him at edge rusher. That should be the move.

But it doesn't mean the Panthers aren't going to be tempted to take Tyler Warren in that spot. The Drive with Josh Graham only on WSJS. With respect to Kylie Minogue, this is not the music that we need for this segment. Because it's time, Will. With about a week to go in the ACC basketball regular season, we're going to tell you who the award winners are in the ACC before they're handed out. We call them the Josh Grammy Awards.

Here they are. Beautiful basketball. Oh, we love ACC hoops. Don't know if that's remotely like the Miss America pageant. That's more Miss America than Oscars or Grammys in this case. Okay, Will, we've got a lot of awards to hand out, so let's get to it.

Let's start with something big. Let's start with first team All-ACC, Will. I've got five players here, as is customary for an All-ACC list. At guard, Chase Hunter, Clemson. I think the drum roll might need to come before the name. Usually, and also, I don't know if we need a drum roll for five names.

Maybe for the later awards we could use the drum roll. 16.7 points per game, 43% from three. One of the best three-point shooters, and obviously Clemson has been able to keep at a level where you think a lead eight back-to-back years.

You lose PJ Hall, and Chase Hunter steps in as the best player on this team. At the other guard, Hunter Salas, Wake Forest. Fourth leading scorer in the ACC. The league's not as good as it was a year ago, and he was a first team All-ACC player.

He's having a better year than he had a year ago. Salas, even though the three-point shooting isn't great, he probably was the last player in to this first team All-ACC list. But he makes the cut for the second straight year, and in our smaller first team All-ACC lineup, Louisville guard Chucky Hepburn is a first team All-ACC player. Leads the league an assist in addition to having more than 15 points per game.

Louisville taking a big step. He's been the best player on that team. At power forward, Duke freshman Cooper Flagg. He's really good. And to round out our first team All-ACC list, small forward, or our second forward, Maxime Reynaud of Stanford. 20 points per game, he averages.

Stanford held above water. If he wasn't on that team, that team would be horrific. Honorable mentions. Marcus Burton, who's the ACC's leading scorer from Notre Dame, RJ Davis, Ian Shefflin.

On the outside looking in, but could be second team. All-ACC win those lists drop. Now let's get to two different awards that should be locks. ACC Coach of the Year, drum roll please. Pat Kelsey at Louisville. Congratulations, Pat.

Give a speech, speech, speech. Frame gang. Big frame gang. He brought Louisville back from the dead. Horrific in recent years. In one year, ranked in the top 25, a force again, completely rebuilding that roster and that program, breathing life into it. ACC Rookie of the Year. Ian Jackson, Cooper flag. Yeah. Are any Tar Heel fans going to be mad about that?

Man, I really thought there was a conversation to be had there, I gotta say. Let's get to the All-Defensive team. This isn't sexy, this isn't fun, but you know what Will, we value defense on this show. All-Defensive team. At one of the guards, Jaden Zachary from Clemson. Sorry Will, he goes to Clemson now, not Boston College. Boston College?

I know you got excited for a second, but I'm sorry, he plays for Clemson. Dukes Seon James. Louisville's Chucky Hepburn. Dukes Cooper flag.

Duke center, come on Malawatch. Three on the All-Defense team. You could make an argument, Will, that other than Hepburn, the next five defensive players could come from Duke. Like, if Malik Brown and Tyrese Proctor didn't get hurt.

Because then you got Seon, you got James, you got Cooper flag. This might be the most hotly contested category. It looked like it was going to be a walk, Malik Brown was going to be your sixth man of the year in the ACC. But not anymore with him being banged up and him missing too many games. So this year's sixth man of the year is... Ian Jackson, North Carolina. There he is.

It was a debate. It was between Ian, Duncan Pao at Georgia Tech, who has a bunch of tattoos, has the headband, bald dome, not afraid, puts up a lot of big shots. Chuck Harris, SMU, probably was the closest in that category. But Ian Jackson, your winner of the sixth man of the year award. Which brings us to the final two awards of the evening, Will, or I guess on the afternoon of the Josh Grammy Awards, the only award show.

That's at 3.30 in the afternoon. The ACC defensive player of the year is... Louisville's Chucky Hepburn. He leads the league in steals. He defends the best player on the other team, and he deserves this distinction.

Which brings us to the final award of the Josh Grammy Awards. The ACC player of the year is... RJ Dea- Cooper Flag. Cooper Flag.

Cooper Flag. I can't believe you. Do you have any objections to this list?

I really thought I should have been RJ Davis. No. Honestly, so you showed me this list last night, and I don't think there's any... Where do I see people getting mad, potentially? Duke fans might get mad that they have five, arguably five of the six best defensive players in the conference, and yet Chucky Hepburn's the defensive player of the year.

There's some potential for that. All ACC, you know Carolina fans are not going to be happy that none of their players are on the five. But who would you bump out? Don't tell me who's deserving of being a first team all ACC player.

Tell me who doesn't deserve it. Like, are you bumping out Chase Hunter or Hunter Salas for RJ Davis? Because we remember parts of this year where we're just like, is RJ any good anymore? I'm sorry, there wasn't a point in the year where I thought Hunter Salas was bad, even though he's taken a step back in three-point shooting. Chase Hunter, you might argue the numbers, but Chase Hunter, again, if it's close, give me the guy on the better team. Better team.

If it's close. That's why I side Chase Hunter over RJ Davis. What were the other three on that list again? The three locks are Flag, Rayno, and Hepburn. Those are the locks. So then it becomes a conversation between, yeah we don't really need that music anymore, Chase Hunter, Hunter Salas, RJ Davis, and the ACC's leading scorer Marcus Burton. You don't have Knipple in conversation anywhere there?

Who do you bump out? Salas maybe? For Khan?

I think so. Because again, that Duke team is a sum of its parts. Other than Cooper. Everything revolves around Cooper. And Khan's great. If Khan was on his own team, you know, RX writes in, Ian Jackson is a projected first rounder. After the last week, Isaiah Evans probably is too. Should we put him in the awards?

Come on Malawatch. He's projected to go in the top 10. Khan can Knipple the same way you're talking about there. Projected NBA pick. That doesn't really factor into this all that much. And then coach of the year, I think it's Pat Kelce in a runaway. But, some might say John Shire. Some might look at Brad Brownell.

Some might consider what SMU's done, even though I wouldn't do that. I think it's Pat Kelce. I think it is. And now, the moment you've all been waiting for. You're on the Drive with Josh Graham. Bets went 2-2 last night, Will. Syracuse covered the one and a half against NC State. Wake Forest cleared 69 and a half points. The two that failed, of course, was our Wake Forest-Maryland parlay.

Oof. Tough. And, Wake Forest minus three and a half first half against Virginia. Those were our wins.

Those were our losses. We got two bets to place tonight, including Will, for the Charlotte Hornets game tonight against the Dallas Mavericks. So, let's dig into that right now. I'm not a betting duck. You know you do. Call me in on this. But, my money's on the other team. This is Josh's best bet.

What are you fist-bumping about? I'm excited about Hornets basketball. Why? Pooper for Cooper. I'm assuming that LaMelo Ball's going to be able to go tonight.

Probably. Even though he's been dealing with a bit of a bum ankle, Dallas has allowed a player to have at least six assists in four of the last five games. I like LaMelo to have over six and a half assists, but another thing that I really like, apparently, when the Hornets are shorthanded, LaMelo gets really involved rebounding the ball.

Chicken salad deluxe! And Dallas is bottom ten in the NBA and rebounds allowed. So, what I'm going to do, Will, is LaMelo Ball over four and a half rebounds. That's the move for tonight. LaMelo's going to get to five boards because Dallas?

Not great at rebounding the basketball, and LaMelo, because of the injuries the Hornets have, is going to have to get involved in that area should he play tonight. And, while we're talking NBA, the marquee game tonight, the one NBA on Turner game that we have, it is the Nuggets at the Milwaukee Bucks. We like Giannis Antetokounmpo to go over 29 and a half points. We're on Giannis tonight, Will.

Why? Well, I'm doing the math here, adding up Giannis' last four performances against Denver. 29 points, 36 points, 33 points, 31 points. I'm doing the math. The lowest outpoint was 29, and he needs to go over 29 and a half.

And I think he does on the big stage tonight. So there you go. A scoring prop, Giannis over in points.

LaMelo Ball over on his rebounds. That's what we're doing tonight. Okay, it's time.

Let's have the conversation. Are we sure Norman Dale was a good basketball coach? RIP Gene Hackman. I love Gene Hackman. We have a poll question out. Will, what movie do you want to win this poll for the Gene Hackman movie we're going to do in honor of one of the greatest actors passing away today at 95 years old? The Options, The French Connection, No Way Out, Unforgiven, and Royal Tannenbaum. Unforgiven sounds interesting. Just because it's been on the poll forever and we haven't done it? Stan Cotton's probably created six burner accounts just to vote on it. Hey, I would love to watch that for Stan Cotton.

Okay, so Unforgiven might be the choice. But getting back to Hoosiers. See, you watch this movie so you can have an opinion on the subject. I don't think Norman Dale is the greatest coach ever. It might be the best basketball movie ever. And Gene Hackman is great. This is not a knock on his performance.

But if we're going to nitpick a little bit. Norman Dale, the basketball coach. Imagine being in the stands, Will. You see all the people that are mad at Steve Forbes right now? Imagine if Steve Forbes had a guy foul out in the second half of last night's game. And one of the referees last night, AJ Desai, comes to the bench and says, you need a fifth. And Steve goes, no, my team's on the floor.

Could you imagine Twitter X? Right now I have people who are mad at Steve. All my mentions would be, he didn't even put a fifth guy out on the floor. He didn't even put a, this guy can't recruit a fifth guy to put out there on the floor? That's your team?

My team's out on the floor. Really, Steve? Really? That's it?

So I don't know if that's the way that you drive that point home. And then, hiring the town drunk to be an assistant coach. Now, clearly he knew ball, like the picket fence, that was good, right? I just, you know, it's a lot of trust to put in that area. But my biggest nitpick comes at the end of this movie. Where, if you watch, and the iconic scene that I love, it warms my heart, is when they're measuring the height of the basket at Hinklefield House, and you have this speech in the locker room, let's win this one for all the small towns that never get a chance to be here.

I'm getting goosebumps thinking about it. If you watch the cut up of the game, I think I saw Bill Simmons actually put together a box score. A lot of the baskets are spoken for, like 36 of the 42 points that they had going into that last possession, spoken for. Jimmy Chitwood has pretty much all of them.

I think he had a stat line where he was like 16 of 18, something like that. And then you go into the huddle, and what is Norman Dale doing? Oh, they're going to be focusing on Jimmy, so we need to give the ball somewhere else. And then Jimmy Chitwood, who has maybe five lines the entire movie, says, Coach, Coach, I can make it. And I'm thinking, duh, Norman Dale, give the ball to Jimmy Chitwood, what are you talking about? So, like, what, you needed Jimmy Chitwood to tell you that you needed to give the ball to Jimmy?

What are you talking about? Come on. Like, again, I'm just imagining Twitter. I'm just imagining being in the stands. I'm like, alright, dude. Jimmy's got 36 of the 42, and then they give it to Buddy for the final shot of the state championship game. That's his name, Buddy. That's the guy who gets the shot. What?

No, Jimmy should take that shot. Are you kidding? And that's not even talking about some of the stuff that was allegedly happening in his past in college hoops prior to becoming a high school coach. I'm just saying. Are we sure Norman Dale was good?

Hmm. I seem to remember I wasn't the biggest fan of Hoosiers. You didn't like Hoosiers because you said it was basic, pretty much. And I had to explain to you, the reason it seems basic is because you've watched all the movies that ripped off Hoosiers for the last 40 years, so the original thing doesn't seem that awesome when everybody's ripped it off for 40 years. I also didn't think the basketball in the movie was all that great. Now you bite your tongue.

At least I think that was one of the issues I had with it. It's been a long time since I watched it. I don't think Norman Dale's the best movie coach. Now I don't know who is now that I say a statement like that.

Yeah, now we gotta have that conversation. Is it Coach Carter? Have you seen Coach Carter with Samuel L. Jackson?

Rich what? Well... Who was the coach in Blue Chips? Nick Nolte. Did we ever do that?

We did. Shaq, the potato cameo. Yeah, he's essentially doing a Bob Knight.

Yeah, that's a really good one. That's a really good coach. That's a really good coach. Hall of Fame sportswriter Mike Decoracy had Wake Forest heading to Dayton in his bracket projection for Fox Sports earlier this week. Mike joins us now and before we get to Gene Hackman and the movies, how damaging do you think Wake's loss to Virginia is in actuality, Mike?

Well, it's very damaging because Wake had one of the resumes that primarily existed upon we didn't do anything bad or we didn't do much bad. The Florida State loss earlier in the month hurt as well and NC State on the road, but you're going to lose a road game every now and then. But to lose two home games to non-tournament teams, okay, what are you countering that with? You're countering that with one neutral Florida win against Michigan and that's it.

Everybody else you beat is out of the field and so what do you have that you can sell? And their results metrics are not disastrous. They are still borderline tournament quality, but then you break down to the other components. Quality wins, which equates to quad records, however you want to say it, and the predictive metrics which are a disaster for Wake. So they need something between now and the end of the ACC tournament to say, okay, we really are a tournament team and that would be for Wake. I mean, obviously they could do what NC State did a year ago.

That would be an option. It's not an easy option, certainly, to win the ACC tournament. But when you think about it, it's probably an easier ride this year in many ways than NC State had a year ago.

Because there were multiple quality teams that you had to get through then. This time, if you get through Duke and Clemson, either by somebody else helping you out or you doing it yourself, there's not much else out there that you say, hey, that's really tough to do. As relative to the end of the regular season, there's nothing to help you accept the road Duke game. I'd say it's more plausible that you win the ACC tournament than you win the road Duke game.

But if you can do it, do it. It sounds like you think a road Duke win would be enough to get you over the finish line, but let's say the bracket holds true the way it looks right now in Charlotte and that you either get Duke in the semifinal before you get to a championship game. Given what you know about how committees grade conference tournament games, do you think a win on a neutral floor in a conference tournament setting against Duke would be enough if it's not in the championship game? It would depend on who is the opponent in the championship game and did you lose. I think there's a misnomer about whether the committee considers championship games or any conference tournament games. And that is that what people don't understand is they follow what I do or what Joe does or what Jerry Palm does and they say, okay, well, there wasn't much movement there because they got this result or they lost this game.

Why wasn't there much movement? And I came up with this analogy a few weeks ago. It's like a library and every game you play goes on the shelf. Whether it's at the top of the shelf if you happen to be one of those teams that has a Duke win or at the bottom of the shelf for all your 300s. Whatever happens is on that shelf and what happens in the conference tournament is just one more book in a pretty stacked bookshelf.

And so how much is it going to change what's already there? And that's the issue when it comes to whether or not those games matter. They do matter, but they don't matter anymore than what happened in November or what happened in December. So if Duke, if Wake were to get a Duke neutral court win, that would be really important. But would it outweigh the fact that they took two home losses to non-field teams?

I'm not sure that it would. That road, Duke game, beat them on the road and that's going to, people are going to pay attention to that. It's going to bring your resume metrics up to the borderline 30s and that's, it's hard to leave you out if your resume metrics average out to in the 30s.

It's hard to leave you out. Not impossible, but hard. And then you look at that point, it would really help you in terms of your quad record because you're lean in quad one wins and quad one achievement.

And so all of that plays into it. It's a real steep climb for the Deacs now. Before last night, it was still a tough climb because you have to hold off everybody else out there that because they play in better leagues, are getting more quality opportunities than you are. Mike DeCorcy with us here, Sporting News. Great to catch up with him. North Carolina has a similar opportunity as Wake Forest does next week except it's in the Smith Center that they get Duke. As soon as we got off the air last night, Jon Shires radio show aired on WSJS and it was good news for the Blue Devils that like Malik Brown, it doesn't look like Tyrese Proctor's injury is going to be season ending.

We just don't know when he'll be back from the bone bruise. Hypothetically, if he doesn't return next week for Duke, then you're North Carolina and you're Wake with a chance to get Duke without two of their best defensive players. Tyrese Proctor and Malik Brown a little bit more vulnerable than they've been at any other point this year. But focusing specifically on the Tar Heels, you listed them on your first four outline. How much work does North Carolina need to do to get into the dance? How similar are they to Wake Forest at this point? Yeah, the difference between them and Wake is one, they've had more opportunity at the quad one level than Wake has. They've played 11 quad one games. I think the number for, if I remember right, for Wake is around eight or nine. And I think Wake has two quad one wins to Carolina's one.

That's correct. Michigan back in Greensboro and they won at SMU. Carolina's quad one win is against UCLA in December against UCLA. I have a hard time with the candidacy of a team that's sitting on one quad one win with that many opportunities. You're basically saying, if you put them in the field, you're a tournament team that won fewer than 10% of their most difficult games.

Really? Is that where we are? That's the question for me. I think they're in the neighborhood because of their various metrics, but it's hard for me to see them being a tournament team that has beaten two NCAA tournament quality opponents. And when I say two, I'm saying that's if you take care of Duke at home.

I think it's a really difficult climb for them still. One, you've got other teams with more quality wins that are still not in the field, Indiana being an example. Ohio State, borderline, just made it back into the field last night when Texas fell out. Texas is still a team that has more quality wins as well than Carolina. So for me, there's no way Carolina makes it without Duke, without getting them once, at least either home or somehow working out the bracket so they face them in Charlotte. But there are others may disagree. I mean, I've been wrong on average of about one team per year. Maybe that's the team.

Like I said, you never know. But for me, that's a team that I have a hard time embracing as an NCAA tournament team based on that. Let's get into movies now because I want to have ample time to hit on a number of subjects. What we love about Mike, the course he is as passionate as he is about basketball. He's passionate about the movies as well, which we love. Gene Hackman passed away today at 95. To me, it's him and John Cazale at the top of my head with the highest batting average when it comes to good movies they picked.

And obviously the performances are great. Sadly, Cazale died very young, but Hackman just had amazing taste. When he's in a movie, you know it's going to be a good movie most times or not, and he's going to have a great performance. What do you think distinguishes him and do you have a favorite of his films? Well, I think the thing that distinguishes him is that he was able to change the nature of his roles to fit what worked without really changing his appearance that much. It was mostly about how he inhabited the character more so than accents or changing appearance. He was able to essentially hide Gene Hackman in whatever he was doing. You think about Get Shorty and his role in that, and then you compare that to something like Unforgiven. And they are two different people who look exactly like Gene Hackman. And that's kind of what, of all the actors, if you think about somebody like Daniel Day Lewis, we're talking about not leading men necessarily, although certainly they perform leading roles, but not leading men like a good looking guy like Robert Redford who could do a variety of things, but he always looked like Robert Redford because nobody wanted to change what Robert Redford looked like. But with Hackman, he could inhabit that role and you think about Norman Dale and how genuinely he fit into the world of high school basketball and that being who he was and how he brought that sense of the defeated coach who hadn't given up.

I love that about that role. I think it's the most overlooked part of it is Norman Dale's backstory, his history, and how he had been basically run out of college coaching and he was just trying to hang on to the game. You look at the shooter character by Dennis Hopper and of course Jimmy Chitwood making the shot and all of that, but for me the part that gives you the soul of the movie is Hackman deciding after he got run out of college that he did not want to give up on the game, that he still had something more to give to it. And that's what makes Hoosiers Hoosiers and he perfectly embodied that role.

My hottest take that I have is that it's a wonderful performance. I love the movie, don't get me wrong, but are we sure that Norman Dale was a good coach? We got to at least talk about, we saw on tape 36 points of the 42 that they scored was Jimmy Chitwood in the championship and you're thinking about doing something, Jimmy Chitwood doesn't say anything and he has to speak up and say, Coach, maybe I get the ball in this spot and maybe, I get you're sending a message, but five guys on the floor. I mean, come on, what are we doing here and maybe don't have the drunk assistant coach. I'm just saying, I'm glad he did, it's well-meaning, but are we sure that Norman Dale was a great coach?

Yes, because when you think about it, one, a great coach is one who can say, yeah, that's a great idea, let's do that. If you think about the various coaches who go through, I think about Chris Collins at Northwestern. When Northwestern got into the NCAA tournament for the first time, they ran a play, they were losing to Michigan and they absolutely had to beat Michigan to get into the show.

I mean, they could have fixed it later by doing a bunch of stuff in the Big Ten tournament, but they really needed that win to get in and they'd held the lead and then they fell behind and now they're down a point with a minute left. Brian James was the one who designed the play, his assistant coach, Brian James. I know that because I wrote an article about that play the day later and instead of taking all the credit, Chris said, Brian James did that. I'll tell you what I thought, but I want you to talk to Brian so he can tell you how he designed the play. That's what great coaching is.

It is the ability to process everything, everybody that's in your ear and make the right decisions in the end. And in that case, he was making a legitimate call because he knew the defense would be oriented toward Jimmy. And he thought, okay, I'll use all that defensive action against the opponent. And Jimmy said, no, man, I got this. And instead of saying, yeah, but he said, okay, I believe in you, go do it. You talked me into it. Norman Dale. He's a good basketball coach after all.

Mike, the course he's with us here. Okay, so it's about Oscars time. We need to talk. There are a lot of movies and they're all stupid long, all of them.

Nobody knows how to cut down anymore. We've talked about this for the last handful of years. What has been your favorite movie this year? Yeah, I think in the end that I did complete my mission to see all nine Oscar or all 10 Oscar nominated movies. I think it's the 40th consecutive year.

I think I have to do the count, but I think that's 40 years in a row now. And I thought the movie that in the end that I liked the best was Conclave. There was a sense of place. They put you in a place that you'll never get to go. And they made you feel like it's exactly what would happen in a circumstance like that when you needed a new pope.

This is how it works. Whether it's 100% accurate or whatever, don't know, but they made me feel like I was in that room and I was watching the deliberation and I really appreciated that. There's a twist in it that no one sees coming.

I will not reveal, but no one sees it coming. And I thought it was really well done. There were other movies.

I really liked Amelia Perez. It was fresh. It was different. It was certainly engaging. I thought it was an excellent movie.

It obviously has some PR problems now, but it's an excellent picture. I thought Wicked was great and breathtaking. I mean, I had chills in the last half hour. I'm a big musical theater person and I thought it was wonderful, but I feel like it can't be the winner because it doesn't end. For a two-part movie, it had a pretty good place to end it, but it can't be a great movie without an ending. That's why when anybody tells me that the best Star Wars movie was The Empire Strikes Back, I'm like, no, it has no ending.

It cheats that, so it can't be. So A New Hope or Star Wars or whatever you want to call it, that's the best Star Wars movie because it got it all started and because it has a legit ending. So that's why Wicked can't be the winner. I really did, like we were talking before we started, I really liked the substance. I liked the concept. I liked the execution. I thought they overdid the ending. It could have been a much better one hour and 50 minute movie and I don't think it's not good. The ending wasn't not good because it was too long. I thought the ending was not good because they tortured the idea of what happened when they didn't have to. The movie said what it needed to say the moment that the final edition of this concept emerged.

Once you saw that, they made their point and they could have stopped right there. Conclave is great. I love Ralph Finney or Ralph Fiennes, who was great in Grand Budapest Hotel and I love those movies. The substance probably is the best one I've seen this year.

Margaret Qualley, who we remember seeing in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, great with Demi Moore, Dennis Quaid. Mike Decorsy, how do you answer when someone gives you the best movie you've ever seen question? Since you've seen all the best pictures the last 40 years. Is it one of those movies that are nominated or is it a personal choice? My favorite movie and the best movie are both best picture winners, but not in that window.

They were both from the 70s. My favorite movie is Rocky. It had an influence in my life and it was so well written and executed and is underrated because of all the sequels, but it is a perfect movie. But the best movie ever made is The Godfather. Casablanca is amazing, but The Godfather is the best.

One or two? Two is a great movie, but again, a sequel can never be better than the original because the original does all the heavy lifting of establishing the characters and the setting. You may change the setting, but Michael Corleone is Michael Corleone by the time we start Godfather II. He may be in a different place in a different time in his life, but we know Michael when Godfather II starts.

So we know what he's been through and how he got here. We don't have to have anything introduced to us. So it's a little bit of a cheat. Sequel can never be better. Do you enjoy talking movies or basketball more? Just so I know. Well, I do one more than the other. So when I get the opportunity to talk movies, it's always a blast. Well, that's why we'll have to get you on before they start tipping off NCAA tournament games again. It's good to see your face.

It's good to hear your voice. Read his stuff and read his bracket. Projections, Fox Sports, Big Ten Network, you can see them. Sporting News, you can read them. Mike, it's good to see you and we'll chat sometime soon. You too, Josh. Always in the light.