Wake Forest fires Danny Manning

This is The Drive with Josh Graham Podcast.

Tune into The Drive weekday afternoons 3-7 on Sports Hub Triad. Danny Manning's firing this weekend shouldn't have come to a surprise to any listeners of this show. Danny was on this show three weeks ago. He said he hadn't been given any assurances he'd be back for next season. He said that the review process was still ongoing. At that point, it was a month after the year ended. A little bit later on, Sean D. Brown tweeted both he and Danny would be back and that they were gonna win. Then he deleted the tweet and announced his departure from Winston-Salem less than a week later.

Ed Harden, he was with us last Wednesday. He said, not only is John Curry declining to talk about Wake Basketball, he's telling reporters he can't talk about Wake Basketball. So it all seemed strange until Saturday morning when we all learned the news. Don't let anybody tell you this isn't a gamble for the Deacs. It certainly is. However, to me, it's a very necessary risk to revive this basketball program.

Because here's where the real opportunity sets in. Wake Forest is the only Power 6 conference program this entire offseason to make a coaching change. That means there are coaches available to the Deacs they would never have a shot at in a normal cycle. In a normal cycle, Jon Beeline, if he wants to get back in coaching, he's not going to Winston-Salem. Now, I still don't buy he's a serious candidate for the Deacs, just for a few reasons.

It would be by far the most expensive option on the market. Beeline, he's closing in on 70, which means he wouldn't really reap the benefits of rebuilding Wake until he is past 70. Also, let's not forget, actually I don't think most people know this, Jon Beeline has the same agent as Danny Manning. So I don't think you'd really open up a search firm if the same person you'd be going to to try and land Beeline is the person you've been negotiating a buyout with reportedly for the last few months.

So I don't see that happening, but Beeline's a guy who would be plucked before even the Deacs could call him. Steve Forbes, East Tennessee State, Pat Kelsey, Winthrop, heck even Westmiller at UNC Greensboro. Wake Forest has its pick of the litter, but here's the gamble. Coaches might be less likely to leave the comfort of their current circumstances amid everything happening with Coronavirus. Curry, who normally would fly to see a coaching candidate, take them out to dinner, maybe fly them in, show them around these great facilities Wake Forest has with the Shaw Center, the same things he was selling during the press conference on Saturday, he's not going to get a chance to allow for those coaches to see that firsthand in all likelihood. Now you probably could travel a little bit privately and things are easing up across the country, limitations being put in place, so maybe that subsides in short order. Also, I go the other way on it being a significant gamble with coaches maybe wanting to stay in place because with murky economic measures at some universities, particularly some of the small mid-major schools, coaches, they might jump at an opportunity to get a pay bump. They don't know if the economic situations will be such a big effect on departments in the next year that if they left next year versus this year, they might not get quite as much of a pay raise. So there's two ways to look at that on the gamble front. But they just needed to get Danny out.

Let's just call it what it is. Attendance, it was less than half full the Joel on average. They announced, Robert, 6,900 fans on average at Wake Forest basketball games this year.

Ooh. 6,900. Not a nice number to have there.

Chris Patola going to join us and we'll talk Wake basketball with him, ESB and college basketball analyst in about 25 minutes or so. This is what Curry had to say on Saturday when I asked him about just the financials of it all. Of course, there are limitations. Wake Forest being a private school, they don't talk about the specifics of buyout details and such. But I thought this was a very telling quote. First of all, any decision we make at Wake Forest comes with some, you know, with that reflection on our goals, including fiscal integrity and fiscal responsibility. In this particular decision, if you look at the overall program and where we are right now, the decision is supported or the economics support the decision. And as always, we don't comment specifically about agreements with former or current personnel. And I would caution against assuming the accuracy of any figure speculated in the media.

Now, think about this, Robert. Think about that statement that Curry said there. The economics support this decision. It's reportedly a 15 million dollar buyout during a pandemic.

For him to say the economics support this decision is a pretty damning thing. So we talk about attendance. But I also think the loss of Chon D. Brown dismissed any hope that Wake could field a winning team next year.

I was making the argument, hey, this might be one of Danny's most talented rosters, either the most talented or second most talented if Brown and Olivier are there. But once Chon D. decided to leave, there's just no hope of that happening. And if Danny is still the coach, that attendance number is going to go down from even 69.

You can tweet the show at sportsubtriad. 336-777-1600. What were your thoughts on Danny Manning being fired over the weekend? Wake Forest fans, you've been waiting for this moment for years, plural, to talk about this being a reality. Now that it's happened, what do you think?

336-777-1600. It would have happened last year, I thought, if it wasn't for the transition from Ron Wellman to Curry. And there are a lot of reasons for that. But now that it has happened, we're moving forward to see who the replacement's going to be. It's a gamble for Wake, but I think it's the best gamble they can make in order to revive this basketball program. The NFL draft was this weekend, and for the first time ever, a team has picked up seven defensive players in seven picks. No team in the modern draft has ever spent their entire draft on defense with as many picks as Carolina had. Matt Ruhle was talking to Trey Wingo of ESPN yesterday, and specifically the approach focusing on the defensive side of the ball. Yeah, you know, we came into this with a priority of really getting some young, explosive, dynamic defensive players, and really address the offense and free agency. Extended Christian, which obviously was a huge thing for the entire organization, and I think Marty Harney has come in with a great plan, and I think we together have a vision for how we're going to move forward. Yeah, we'll get to Christian in the offensive.

Yeah, we'll get to Christian McCaffrey eventually, I think. Again, that from ESPN. I think the Carolina Panthers, they are set now for a perfect evaluation season. I think Carolina's playing this right. They're not tanking for next year because tanking rarely ever works unless you get lucky like the Dolphins did.

If Tua didn't sustain an injury, the tanking for Tua initiative would not have fallen the way that it did this season. Carolina is instead thinking, okay, we can collect, even though we're taking on dead cap this year, we're going to have a lot of money to spend in 2021. So this year, why not just have cheap, short contracts and veer towards youth to figure out what exactly we have with our coaching staff? Phil Snow on defense, Joe Brady, the Wonderkind from LSU, Matt Rule can figure some things out as well. Low risk, cheaper contracts that aren't on the books for a very long time. That's what happens when you give Rule a seven-year contract with so much guaranteed money, it gives him assurances that he can try and build this the right way. The way that he built at Temple and the way that he built at Baylor.

So here's what's happened. Kind of like how he noted there, they addressed the offense in free agency. They made 14 free agent acquisitions in the last month and change. 11 of the 14 were offensive players out of those 11 players. All of them are in their 20s and the only one that has a contract more than two years.

Teddy Bridgewater and there's no guaranteed money on that third year. So it is a youth movement. It's not about an expansive contract movement.

You're trying to see who fits, who doesn't. And that's what this year is going to be about. The biggest thing Carolina needs to answer, is Teddy Bridgewater a quarterback that you'd consider to be a franchise quarterback? He has enough weapons around him, Moore, Samuel, Anderson, McCaffery, that I think you can accurately get a read there. They brought in Russell Okun to play left tackle. That's still one of the bigger needs because where do you go after this season? Offensive guard, is Greg Little going to be able to shift from left tackle to guard?

That's a big concern. Linebacker, I don't think Carolina drafted anybody who can play at the linebacker spot. But they did bring in Tahir Whitehead, who I think is more of a place guard. He's only there for one year. So that's going to be the focus in the 2021 free agency and draft periods.

They'll have plenty of cap space, like I mentioned before, to try and get that done. On the defensive side of the ball, I think they drafted at least three starters on defense. Derek Brown, of course, is going to start over Woodrow Hamilton in a 4-3 defense. Clog up the middle with KK Short.

Jeremy Chin, love this pick. They needed to go secondary in the second round, as we talked about on Friday. They did that late after picking up the edge rusher from Penn State, Gross Montos.

I don't know if he starts right out of the gate because Efe Obata seems to have a pressed rule. But at some point, he's going to be the edge rusher lining up across from Brian Burns. Troy Pride Jr., we're talking about 4-3 speed at corner.

Played at Notre Dame. That's the reason why Dante Jackson got on the field as quickly as he did. He just had great speed, and there are a lot of fast wide receivers in this division. I can't see a situation Pride Jr.'s not playing as a starter at some point during the year. And I think Robinson, out of West Virginia in the XFL, was a smart risk to take in the fifth round.

He's had some character problems, but he checked, ruled it, with his coaches in St. Louis and with West Virginia. And they think that this is somebody who could start in the NFL, so they like the value there in the fifth round. Carolina, I haven't heard anybody take issue with the draft they had over the weekend. They addressed the offensive concerns at free agency, drafted at least three starters on defense, every single pick being defense. A big fan of what the Carolina Panthers did. But we spent a lot of time talking about the risk of letting Danny Manning go.

I don't think we spent enough time talking about Danny himself. There are three ways the Danny Manning era at Wake Forest is going to be remembered years from now. I'll tell you what they are next.

Next. Now that the Danny Manning tenure at Wake Forest is complete, there are three ways I believe this era of Deacon Basketball is going to be remembered. Number one, first and foremost, the departures. In six years, 23 players with eligibility remaining decided to depart the Wake Basketball program. That's through transfer, that's also leaving to go into the draft, even though only one of those 23 were drafted, that of course being John Collins.

Jalen Hoard, he was signed as an undrafted free agent last year. But really, the tale's mostly been Middeglue, Duralmore, Crawford, those types of guys leaving the program who really don't have a lot of options elsewhere. It was always very fishy seeing where these guys were going to go, and there's just no way you can justify it. Danny says, oh, it's just a sign of the times.

Heard that so many times. Oh, everybody across college basketball is dealing with this. No, but most guys at college basketball in the ACC, they're dealing with departures when they're leaving to go to the NBA, where they're leaving because they're not getting playing time where they're at, you know, like a Michael Wynn situation. But there's really no excuse for Sharron Wright Jr. going. There really is no excuse for Chondi Brown deciding to leave Wake. Chondi, he's not going to be a first or an even second round draft pick.

Maybe Olivier Sar, but first and foremost, the departures, that's going to be a big part of his legacy. Secondly, they never fielded a good defensive team. Not one time. For those who don't know, and I figure if you're listening to this show, you're probably a big college basketball fan, there are over 350, 350 D1 basketball programs out there. Over 350. Wake Forest, in the six years Danny was the coach, did not rank in the top 125 nationally an year. Did not crack the top 125 in terms of defensive efficiency. That's crazy.

It's crazy that that's never happened. And number three, before we get to your calls at 336-777-1600 on Twitter at sportsubtriad, the extension Ron Wellman gave him. Now, Ron Wellman's a great man. He's one of the three most important figures, I'd argue, in the history of Wake Forest athletics.

And this bad extension doesn't minimize that. However, you're often remembered for what the final thing you did was. And the extension to Manning is the most lasting thing people think about. When it came to Joe Paterno, while he didn't do anything wrong per se, anything against the law, anything regarding the Jerry Sandusky stuff, I think history shows us that he probably wasn't given a fair shake in how he was dismissed. That's how people remember Joe Paterno.

When it comes to Ron Wellman, this extension is going to forever be a part of his legacy. And I truly believe he just wanted it to be his last deal he dealt with. He was going to retire in the next handful of years. He didn't know specifically when. But when he gave it to him, it was after his first winning season with Wake. It was after a year in which they finished 10th place in the ACC, and they were a first for exit in that NCAA tournament. It just didn't really sit well. I remember thinking it was a huge risk when it happened. Many people agreed with me.

The standard, it just has to be a little bit higher than that. Being 10th in the ACC shouldn't earn you a contract until 2025, reportedly. So those are the three things that'll stick out to me forever when it comes to Danny Manning's tenure here. The 23 departures, never cracking the top 125 in defensive efficiency, and the contract Ron Wellman gave him at the end, the extension. Let's go to Adam Winston-Salem, who once sent on Danny Manning's firing.

What do you got for me yet? Yes, I think it was time. I can't disagree with anything you said, Josh. I think a very poor judgment on Ron Wellman giving that extension to more than Danny Dunn.

In the five years he was there, now it's going to cost him $15 to $16 million. I know you've got one of my favorite guests coming on here in a few minutes, Chris Pistola. Yeah, Chris is great. I wonder if you could possibly ask him, with the addition of Kerwin Walton, after waiting two and a half days for his commitment, if he thinks he's going to help that much, and if he thinks they'll have enough outside shooting to compete in the NCAA tournament in the ACC. I'll see if we get that in for Chris.

Thanks for the call. When it comes to Kerwin, I'm glad you gave me the reminder on Kerwin Walton, because you're talking about a 6'5 player, committed the day. The big question with North Carolina, hey, are they going to have enough shooting? Because you know Caleb Love, he's going to be able to step in and fill in at point guard, where Cole Anthony is leaving that spot. RJ Davis, more of a combo guard who can fill out that backcourt as well. Andrew Playtech still in place, Anthony Harris coming back as well. This is just another necessary addition to the backcourt with Walton. Puff Johnson, he's going to be there with Leaky Black at small forward. The bigs, this is as good of a frontcourt North Carolina has ever had since the national title team in 2017.

I shouldn't have said ever had. Roy Williams has a lot of really good bigs there. But 2017, Kennedy Meeks, Isaiah Hicks, just a bunch of dudes on that team. Say his name. Say who's name?

Say his dadgum name. Yeah, North Carolina has Armando Bacon. Along with Dayron Sharp, Walker Kessler, and of course Garrison Brooks. So I really like what North Carolina has in the post. Oh, here's a note for you, we'll have Roy Williams joining this show Wednesday afternoon. So in a couple days we will get an update on Tar Heel basketball from Roy Williams.

So plenty of Tar Heel basketball to get to in addition to the stuff with Wake. People are usually very heavy handed when they talk about sports. People have to be either awesome or the worst. If you're talking about a quarterback, if you're talking about a coach. And we're seeing a lot of that with Danny.

Fans saying, oh, he's just awful, just terrible. Reality often is in the middle. You hear Wake Forest's side of things. Hey, he's done all this academically and we see some of these talents that have been developed. And then on the other end, the fans, they have a higher standard.

It's usually somewhere in the middle. He spent six years here. That's longer than Jeff Bezdelic. He recruited better players than Bezdelic. I think I'd argue he recruited better players than Gaudio did in the short time following Skip's passing. He was always very polite, I respected that. The players, they played incredibly hard for him all the way through.

Even as I'm sure they read all the rumors in social media. And Danny is good at developing big man. Did it with Darryl Moore, did it with John Collins. And we saw Olivier Sar become a third team All-ACC guy this year.

So while I believe it was time for Wake to move on, that doesn't mean it was all bad for Wake Forest. Matt Ruhl. Whatever happened to this going into the draft? Oh, he's going to pick a bunch of Temple and Baylor guys.

It didn't seem like to me he followed the script, Robert, did he? He drafted one Baylor player, nobody from Temple. It was a late round pick.

And they didn't reach on Mims and they didn't trade up to get Mims and they didn't reach on James Lynch. So it feels like there was some swerve there when he says, Oh, we were going to throw the fastball potentially and draft an offensive player in the first round. And then they up and draft an entire defensive draft.

Yeah, maybe a little smokescreen on their behalf. We saw a lot of that that weekend. But yeah, I love the draft. I love the Troy pride pick. I love the gross pick after him falling to the second round. That was a ton of fun. It certainly wasn't gross. Not gross at all. It's nice they have another gross though now.

And pride. He's from South Carolina. I thought it was really cool to see how people in that town. I think it's Gaffney, South Carolina celebrated him coming to town or going to be a Panther.

They had a parade of cars pass his house and people honking and waving at him while he's standing in the front lawn. I thought that was pretty cool. Matt Rule, he showcased how deep his preparation was. He mentioned to us that he had a lot more time to evaluate players. He said usually I get to dive into like 25 specific guys.

But since I've been at home all the time, I've gotten a chance to look at 100 online. Jeremy Chin might be one of those guys. Southern Illinois. He looks like a poor man's Isaiah Simmons. Positionless type player playing at safety. Kenny Robinson. Another XFL guy going to the Panthers that makes three.

Joining a tight end they signed last week and P.J. Walker, Houston Roughneck legend. I also think it says a lot about Rule as a coach that only four Baylor players were drafted. See, Baylor was a player two away from going to the college football playoff. Oklahoma, Lincoln Riley, ton of guys drafted. Alabama, perennial playoff team, tons of guys drafted. LSU had more SEC players drafted than any team in history this year. Fourteen LSU Tigers drafted.

That's nuts. Baylor had four. Four guys. You see Clemson, Ohio State, tons of guys off the board. Baylor had four. And Matt Rule took this team that won one game a few years ago.

And a team that had four draft picks nearly got them to the playoff. I'm just so excited about the direction of the Panthers with Rule at the head of things. But keeping things with the big story, it's Danny Manning, it's Wake Forest. What should be the criteria for Danny's replacement? We'll discuss that with our good friend Chris Patola of ESPN next. One of the best college basketball analysts out there, our friend Chris Patola from ESPN is now with us. Danny Manning, of course, on his way out of Winston-Salem, so that means the Deacs are now searching for his replacement.

Chris, appreciate you spending the time. As a resident of this state and a former assistant coach in the ACC Big Four, what do you think John Curry's criteria should be for finding Danny's replacement? Well, you know, it's a great question, Josh. I mean, I, you know, I think, first of all, there's a lot that goes into it. I would think administratively and logistically in terms of, you know, well, what can we afford to pay? And because, as you know, I mean, Wake's situation being a private school, there's a lot that we're not going to know necessarily about what the buyout is. And then ultimately what the impact of, if there is no football, what that's going to do to their budget.

And all of that impacts, you know, what you're able to pay the next guy. So, look, I think somebody who is different than Danny in terms of energy, in terms of temperament, in terms of recruiting pipeline, in terms of vision for that program, that program right now, Josh, needs an overhaul. And so I think, look, there are some of the names that have been floated out there I think are good names.

I think they're different certainly than Danny. But that program needs an overhaul. And so somebody who's got a vision that resonates with John and resonates with John's vision or whatever his vision is of how good Wake Forest basketball should be, I think is what will go into it. But I'm curious, you know, when it's all said and done and when John Curry starts talking, you know, after the hire, I'm curious, you know, how the finances play into ultimately the decision. I've often said whenever changes are made, usually the replacement is somebody who's an inverse of whoever their predecessor was. I think about it with Larry Fedora shifting to Mack Brown where Larry Fedora was this coach who came in from a smaller group of five school. Mack Brown is certainly in name. Danny Manning would qualify as being a name as well. And I don't think it's a coincidence that Curry mentioned during his press conference, hey, it doesn't have to be a name to come into Winston-Salem and have success. Carl Tacey who recently passed was an example he brought up and Dave Odom as well, somebody he brought up in that regard too. So when you hear that and you're looking for maybe inverse of Danny, somebody who might not be the biggest name, you, I think, mentioned energy, who's the first name that comes to mind when you consider those three factors?

Yeah, I mean, look, I'm really bad at that game, you know. And there's a lot of guys in our business, Josh, who play the, you know, here are the candidates. I mean, you know, look, I think any of the names that have been floated are outstanding coaches. I mean, Wes Miller's done a great job at UNCG. Steve Forbes has done a great job. Obviously, Odom has and Pat Kelsey, all those guys have done a great job. Evidently, John Beeline is out. I don't know how interested John Beeline would have been in the Wake Forest job.

But I think all those guys are good. I think understanding the footprint I think is very important. I think somebody who has proven that they can recruit and then retain at their former institution I think is important. You know, getting players is first and foremost in getting players in this environment. I think people need to understand, you know, whomever you hire, the first priority for an athletic director is to put the new coach in a position where he can win as soon as possible. To hire a guy under these circumstances, given world events, my one concern is you are putting that new coach at a drastic disadvantage. I don't know what the AAU calendar is going to look like. I don't know what summer basketball is going to look like. But given what the roster looks like now, which is not much, given the improbability of being able to get out there much on the road this summer, at least the early part of the summer, I would be very concerned about the new coach's ability. And I wonder how, you know, what coaches who are interviewing for this think about that.

You're trying to put together a roster, not just for next season, but a roster for the next couple seasons that can win games. I mean, that would be my first concern. So I imagine that comes up in the interview process, and I think somebody who's got a vision for how they're going to finagle that I think is important. Yeah, as soon as I was tipped off a few months ago when Beeline was let go in the NBA or they mutually parted ways or whatever language they decided to use, and Wake fans started floating his name. I was tipped off that they had the same agent, Beeline and Danny Manning. I immediately looked at the situation and I saw, OK, they're hiring a search firm.

Apparently, John Curry's been in touch with this agent dealing with the Danny stuff the last few months. It just didn't make much sense. So him being out doesn't surprise me at all. But for all the things you're outlining, the disadvantage the next coach would be working with whenever they get the job, were you surprised to see Saturday's headline? I was surprised.

Yeah, I was surprised. And look, I'm not I'm not saying Danny Manning didn't deserve to be fired. Certainly the record speaks for itself. The attrition he's had as head coach there to his roster speaks for itself. And at the end of the day, if we all work at the behest of our employers, if they're unhappy with your performance, they're going to let you go. And I understand. I mean, look, John Curry may have had the intent to fire Danny Manning after he lost another first round game in the ACC tournament.

And then obviously the world changed the next day. And there may have been a sensitivity that John felt towards that. Again, you know, I don't know if the buyout is 15 million as has been floated. I think it's probably less than that. But I'm sure the finances in figuring out how you were going to maneuver that was was a part of the undertaking. Well, to stop to stop you real quick, if it wasn't 15 million dollars, I asked Curry about it Saturday.

And he said that don't believe everything you see in the media, if it best served Wake Forest for that figure to be out there with it being considerably lower. Don't you think it would have leaked? Yeah, I don't know.

I don't know. I think there's there's something to being clandestine about it. Because, look, the thing is, Josh, in this environment is eight million better than 15? I mean, yes, seven million less, but it's still eight million for an athletic department that has already asked its football coach, other head coaches in the AD himself to take pay cuts.

So it still optically is not a good look. But anyway, back to the point, I mean, that like the timing to me was a little bit bizarre. I mean, again, if you were unhappy with his performance, you knew that two months ago.

You know, the prospect of no football is more a reality now than it was a month ago. You know, you mentioned I mentioned the pay cuts of the athletic department. I just the timing to me struck me as a little bit odd. And I think he may have been, you know, again, there were some things he needed to figure out. But at this point in time, look, and there have been other jobs, Josh, as you as we know that like guys probably deserve to be fired. And I think ADs have backed off it.

Martin Jarman at DC being one of them have backed off of that because of all that's going on in the world. And so, you know, look, I'm not the most sensitive guy in the world, but I do have a sensitivity a month and a half into a pandemic saying, oh, by the way, you're gone on a Saturday morning. Again, I'm not saying he didn't deserve to be fired.

But I just thought the timing here was a little bit odd. Right there with you, Chris Patola, appreciate you spending the time. I hope that you're well in the city of Raleigh or I think you might live in Durham. Appreciate you spending the time regardless. No doubt, my friend. You be well, Josh. Yeah, you got it. That's Chris Patola. Shoot him a follow on Twitter at Chris underscore Patola. Robert, you still do not have access to watch the Jordan doc, do you?

I do not. And I was told by one of my friends that they're like, oh, I watch it on Hulu. You can watch it on Hulu. So I go in there last night and that was incorrect. Yeah, you can't find it on Hulu.

I think you have to have the Disney ESPN Hulu bundle to watch it on. So it was the Dennis Rodman episode episode three. And there were a couple of things I found interesting with that. Carmen Electra still got it for one. I don't know, man. After knowing she's dated Dave Navarro, I just can't.

I can't. She still got it is one of my biggest takeaways. I don't know if it was lighting or something else.

It still got it. And I wanted a lot more of her. The image of her hiding behind a couch when MJ went all the way to Vegas to grab Dennis Rodman's drunk ass stands out to me more than anything else.

And then Robin and brought back to practice wearing flannel pants like flannel pajama pants. It's the most Rodman thing ever. Gosh. But here's the thing I forgot about. He's just as unique of a player as he was a personality. The personality, it's unique. Yeah.

Dating Madonna, dating Carmen Electra, you know, the hair, the dresses, all of it. But him saying, I just wanted to be really good at defense and rebounding. Do we have that today?

Is there anybody who says, you know what? I'm just going to be defense and rebounding. That's what I'm about. And effort. Crazy amount of effort.

I don't think we have anything like that in the NBA. I really don't. Just a truly unique player. I've said this a few times. I am a grammar snob. I'm very particular. Robert doesn't like when I correct him on things.

He hates it. But it bothers me when people misuse words or use things very loosely. Like when people say things are amazing that are just like normal things. Like, oh my God, that McDonald's McDouble is amazing. Really.

Very well done there. But mainly when people use the word unique versus rare. Rare means there are a few. Unique means there's only one. Like people say, oh, this guy's unique.

No, he's not. Like Derek Brown's not a unique player. There's somebody like him every single year.

Last year it was Quinnen Williams. You had Kristen Wilkins and Dexter Lawrence who did similar things. Not unique. Very good. Not unique.

Rare, maybe. Dennis Robbins, one of a kind. As a player, as a personality. And that really shined through last night.

Okay. There is one person at Wake Forest that I was thinking about Saturday when I saw the timing of the Danny Manning news. I'll tell you who that is next. So I see it's Wake Forest Day on the ACC Network. So it almost seems fitting that Wes Durham from Packer in Durham is here. Happy Wake Forest Day, Wes. Did Wake give us anything to talk about?

Timing is interesting, isn't it? How you doing? I'm doing well. Robert's freaking out because apparently there are fire alarm tests going on outside our soundproof studio. So he's getting used to that. Robert will be all right. He's getting ready to get ESPN Plus out of your pocket. So it works out good for him.

I think that actually might be what he's been doing during the commercial break. Keeping an eye on him. But no, I mean, I need somebody to talk about the last dance with. He's the person that is sitting right in front of me right now.

At least I got you here. What do you want to know about the last dance? I've watched every minute of it. Oh, my gosh. I just feel like Rodman... We'll get to Wake Forest in a minute. What do you want to know about the last dance?

There's just so much that's interesting. It seems to me that the relationship players have with the media, that's something that sticks out to me where MJ's pointing the column as saying, you were wrong, you were wrong, you're about to be wrong. Hold on, Josh. First of all, that's Michael, okay? Michael was always the guy who said, hey, you know, after his rookie year, he came back to Chapel Hill to finish school, right after his rookie year in Chicago.

And he had a press conference at Carmichael. And somebody said, well, I can't remember who asked the question. I was sitting there with my dad. I was home from school. And I was working at a radio station in Raleigh midnight to 6 in the morning. And I came back and my dad said, you want to go to this press conference?

I said, sure, why not? I rolled over with him and somebody asked Michael, you know, were you surprised, you know, you had great success in the NBA, were you surprised to be named the Rookie of the Year? And he said, he goes, I don't know, half you guys didn't think I was the best player in North Carolina my senior year.

I mean, it's always that kind of thing. I mean, you know, he always had the needle out for people because that's his chip. I think the one thing, I mean, my son just turned 21 last Tuesday, right? So he doesn't remember any of this and he loves basketball. He wasn't alive for any of Jordan.

He doesn't comprehend it other than, you know, what his grandfather told him or what his old man tells him, right? So he's learning, the people of his age group are just now getting through the first four episodes of this, of what an elite competitor Jordan was. And that's the thing that I think is starting to set in with younger people is to what competitive level Michael Jordan had that really nobody had before, and quite frankly, not many have had since, especially in basketball. There are others that are competitors, not like this guy. Craig Sager also slipping Michael at 20.

I enjoyed that as well. Or excuse me, Dennis Rodman at 20. In hopes that he would get an interview.

I mean, can you imagine today, golly, I'm drawing a blank here. Christian Ledlow dropping a hundred to James Harden for the postgame. It's excellent. Wes Durham is on Twitter, at Wes Durham. I'm going to ask Doris Burke if she drops a hundred to, Jason Tatum for the post.

Hook me up here. This is what we got to do here. So Wake Forest makes the change on Saturday. Chris Pacola, he joined us earlier and he said, he wasn't surprised that Danny or that Wake Forest deemed the situation. Hey, Danny, he hasn't done enough. He deserves to be fired. But he was surprised that the situation was the way it was, that he waited.

Okay, you're in the middle of this pandemic. John Curry waited. This was the time he decided to make a move.

What was your reaction Saturday morning? A little surprised along those same lines. Although, and I'm not going to use Wake as the example here. I'm just going to speak in generics about this because every situation that makes a change is different. Although there are always similarities. Okay, because I don't know the specifics of Wake Forest.

I can't speak to the timing of Saturday for all we know. Okay, and again, I'm speaking in generalities here. I'm not speaking from any base of knowledge. The negotiation on the buyout, whatever the number is, could have been going on for three weeks to a month. Okay, let's first of all deal with that. Now I've seen buyouts that started one way and ended up the other and the amount or the term became the sticking point. Okay, and that's not anything new to anybody who's been involved in this. Second thing is typically there is always, and we can take college football jobs over the last couple of years where things have been done in a unique way after a year or two or three, right Josh?

Yeah. But here's the thing. There's always some concept of how it gets done. And when it's a public institution, it's usually done through donors or groups of donors or whatever the case may be. We usually joke around and call – every school has somebody that's a, quote, team owner, okay, who fancies themselves as the biggest donor, whether they are or aren't sometimes. I mean my favorite one is there's a handful of schools in this country where the biggest donor is the one – the one who thinks he's the biggest donor is the one typically quoted in the newspaper who's not the biggest donor. That's always my favorite one.

That's pretty good. Or who thinks he's in charge of it and is typically not in charge of it. And that's not anybody specific.

That exists across the country. And then there's the ones who you never hear from who are actually typically the biggest donors. When a change like this is made, the terms and the buyout and all those figures kick in. So who's to say that it hasn't been going on for a long time in some respects between, you know, folks from Wake Forest and Danny Manning's representatives? Well, David Glenn, he reported for the ACC Sports Journal the first week of March, right before you did Wake Forest, NC State, the regular season finale, that those negotiations began. And let's not forget, D.G., he's covered the ACC for 30 years.

I understand that. And he's the one that also reported that John Curry was going to be the next AD and Ron Wellman was retiring. So he has a track record as well.

No question. And you know what? That's – and again, reporting is reporting. Now, who gives you the figures that you work from and all these other things? I mean, typically I can tell you, having been through a handful of these, that sometimes the buyout figures and what the reality is tend to be two different numbers sometimes. And then if a school wants to shorten or extend the term of the buyout, for instance, I know a coach that had a five-year and it turned into a 10 at a lower rate per year. Bobby Bonilla.

Yeah, turns into Bobby Bonilla, whatever the case may be. Those ideas and those constitute – and that's all part of the change, too, because, you know, for instance, if you make a change in your – in this case, basketball situation at Wake Forest, you're going to spend X number of dollars to make the change and Y to make the hire, okay? X to fire, X to terminate, Y to hire. And not just the salary, but the infrastructure and all the other things that are involved, too. So that's on the plate of the institution as opposed to the plate of the donor or the buyout or however that's being financed, whether it's being done one way or another. So all those things come into play. And here's the other thing, too, Josh, real quick. Everybody's situation, although similar in structure, is different.

Almost across the board, everybody's situation is different. Danny Manning, I think whenever people talk about coaches and I guess just marquee athletes, you're either thinking a guy is awesome or a guy is terrible or it's never really gray area, there's never really room for context, and that's kind of how sports fans operate at times. With Danny, I've acknowledged it.

Six years, it's not a short measure of time to be at a place. He was always polite, he was always a good recruiter, brought in better players than Bezdelic did, and I'd argue the few years that Dino was here brought in better players than he did. I'd also say that this is a guy who developed big men very well, and the players, regardless of the situation and what their record was, they responded to him and they always played hard. But putting that aside, what ways will you remember Danny Manning's tenure?

Because what immediately comes to mind for me, you got 23 departures in six years. Correct. You never were top 125 in the nation in defense of efficiency. Correct. And Rahm Wellman, the extension after being 10th in the ACC in 2017, that made this linger, and I feel like that's not going to be forgotten. Okay, let's go back to the extension after you were 10th in the ACC, which was Danny's second year. Third year.

Third year, so that's seven years of what has been the last decade, counting the six of Danny and the four of Bezdelic, where you've been to exactly one postseason trip. Correct. And John Collins was a first-round draft pick that year. That's correct. John Collins was a first-round draft pick, but you go back, don't look at Danny's six years, look at the 10, because that's where the situation developed.

The extension. No, no, no, no, no. No, the four of Bezdelic and the six of Manning.

Got it. Add those 10 together. That's what you're looking to correct. That's what you're trying to fix if you're John Kerr. You're not trying to fix the six of Manning. You're trying to fix the last 10.

How do you think? And that's a problem that a lot of Georgia Tech's got the same problem. Georgia Tech hasn't been to an NCAA tournament in 10 years. They haven't been since 2010.

Boston College trying to right the ship as well. I mean, that's what I'm saying. So, you know, Danny's 30 and 80 and all that. And the players that left before the old.

Look, there's a lot of things that cause what happened. OK. And look, he and I played full disclosure, right? He and I played recreation basketball at Lewis Recreation Center in Greensboro.

We were kids. OK. Got a lot of respect for him. Like him as a person. Would have loved to have seen this work out for him.

Just because I think he's good people. But in reality, Josh, you can't have that turnover. You can have some bad luck, but you can't have self, you know, self-imposed problems. Twenty-three departures. Exactly. One draft pick. That's it. And the other thing is this.

Some were just inexplicable. Where's Bryant Crawford going? Where's Darryl Moore going? I would even wager.

Where's Shaundi Brown going? Middaglue? Well, Dinos Middaglue, different.

Dinos Middaglue, seven figures to play at home. That makes some sense. But where's Sharron Wright Jr. going?

Where's Bill in the Blight? Well, right. And this is not, again, the list is, like they say in Top Gun, long and distinguished.

I mean, there are a lot of players on this list and it's something that kept coming up. That and the fact you were 30, in Danny's case, 30 and 80 against the ACC. Well, prior to Danny, Jeff Buzdelic didn't win a road game. I think he won one road game his four years in the ACC.

I mean, that's what I'm saying. Don't look at this. If you're a Wake Forest fan today, don't look at this as six years of Danny Manning. Look at this as the last ten. And it's hard. I mean, there are a lot of schools that have to do this and it's not easy. I mean, Georgia Tech this year had their first winning record in the ACC since 2004 and just their third since 1995. Okay? So Danny Manning got an extension after ten.

Guess what? That could be the new norm in college basketball, in this league especially. Because how are you supposed to get better if your coach is out there operating with two years left? I mean, kids today in today's college basketball, unless the rules change and we get all the other things taken care of in this sport, it's going to be harder to get better, especially in this conference. So rather than asking you for a name or two that you like as a potential replacement, what do you think, understanding how unique of a place Wake Forest is in the power six, what do you think the criteria should be for John Curry? I think the criteria has to be a couple of things. One, despite the problems of the last decade, you have to be willing to understand the neighborhood, the part of the neighborhood you're living in.

Okay? You want to contend, but you don't have the resources. Well, you do now with the facility that they've finished. But even Curry coming back, he understands, okay, you got NC State, you got Duke, you got North Carolina down the road.

This is a private institution. We do play by different rules. But you got Virginia and Louisville too.

All in your backyard. Well, yeah, I mean, you got them all. I mean, Clemson recruits Charlotte. I mean, Georgia Tech signed Maxwell out of Charlotte. I mean, you're in that subdivision.

I mean, you live in that subdivision, but which phase of the subdivision is your house in? Okay? And I think Wake Forest has a, look, they've got a nice facility to play in. Need more people there? Sure you do.

Okay? But you've got resources on campus. You've got an attractive schedule. You travel the right way. You know, you're in a basketball-rich state and you play in the right league from a national perspective.

You're going to be on TV. Look, I get the Wes Miller situation. I get the Ryan Odom situation.

I understand that, you know, there are plenty of connections and those type things. I think John Beeline personally, if John Beeline's interested, you talk to John Beeline. I don't know that John Beeline's interested. I would just be surprised by that because they share the same agent, Danny and Beeline.

Okay. I didn't know that, but there you go. I mean, the same person they're negotiating a buyout with, it would just surprise me. Wouldn't be the first time. Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, that is true, but I mean, it just seems, that seems to be a very large leap. And I see a lot of Wake fans throwing it out there.

Dreams scenario. That's fine. It's going to be the hot name until he says he's never coaching again or whatever the case may be. Absolutely. To me, if you've got to do something in this unique time, I don't have an issue with Wes Miller. I don't have an issue with Pat Kelsey. Is that, is there some risk reward to it?

Sure there is. But I think young, enthusiastic, I think Wes Miller can coach. I think Pat Kelsey can coach.

I know Pat ties you to Prosser, you know, and Ryan Odom ties you to Dave Odom. How about Russell Turner at UC Irvine? Has Russell Turner been ultimately successful enough?

Would be my question. Couple NCAA tournament appearances in the two compared to Kelsey who would have been this year. And also this year, Steve Forbes, it would have been his second NCAA tournament. Steve Forbes not getting that job. Steve Forbes not coming. You don't think? I don't think so.

That seems to be a popular name. What makes you think that that's not a fit? I just, I don't know that that's a, I don't know that that's a fit when, you know, and I look, I think Steve Forbes done a great job at East Tennessee State, but I'm just not sure that's a fit. Okay.

And so you got young. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know that that's a fit. You got young, enthusiastic, willing to understand the neighborhood. Anything else you'd add to this criteria for John Kirk? Well, first of all, I think John's a hell of an athletic director. And I think John will make a great hire at Wake Forest and he'll make a hire that fits the model of the program.

And I'll add this. This is a job he was brought to do too. You got to consider great fundraiser at K-State. That was always the thing he did very well. And also he hired a hell of a basketball coach there to replace Frank Martin and Bruce Weber. Sure. And he did, I mean, when he was allowed to, he did a really good job at Tennessee.

That's neither here or there. I would say this. I think that John is an astute enough athletics administrator to understand. And like any good athletic director to Josh, I think they all have a bracketed list of potential candidates whenever a change is made. One way or another, coach leaves or they have to make a change with the coach.

Would you believe that this is already farther along than we think it is, considering the state of things? Like, do you make a decision like Saturday, if you don't have a good idea who might say yes? I would guess in today's athletic world, you probably need to be. For instance, you know, I think that just about any athletics director that makes the kind of change that John had to make on Saturday, probably does it with at least a working list of people that potentially he could get. And then it comes down to what's their particular situation right now. What are the financials? What kind of structure are they looking for? What kind of resources are they hoping for? What do they want to do? For instance, I mean, give an example. Todd Stansbury, when he made the, you know, when Paul Johnson retired and he went looking for coaches, he had no idea that part of Jeff Collins's package was going to be this whole, you know, branding and, you know, deal that would allow Georgia Tech to, you know, take over social media in some respects. That kind of deal.

I mean, you have to find those things out when you sit down face to face or in today's world screen to screen with people to talk over what they might want to do. And I think that's the important thing. Also, if I'm a Wake Forest fan, I want somebody that understands comprehensively what my institution is, what they do from a competitive standpoint with the league they're in. And look at, I mean, I'll use Dave Claussen as an example because I think Coach Claussen's come in and done a really remarkable job of putting together a football program that built early and now has had a good bit of success through. There aren't three coaches in this league better than Dave Claussen. I would not say. That's my estimation. Pretty doggone good football league now, Coach. Ah, I mean, he's he's done an awful awful.

Mac and multiple throughout the rest. I mean, they you got a lot of good coaches in this league, but I would offer you this. He's done an exceptional job at Wake Forest, understanding how to build it at that particular institution. And you asked what John Curry should be looking for something along those lines, because that's the type of guy who I think you can be successful with.

And I think that coach is probably out there in some form or fashion for John Curry to make in this basketball. It is Wake Forest Day on the ACC Network. Celebrating is West Durham.

It's a very celebratory tone. The Wake Georgia Tech game from the ACC tournament, 1996. That Randolph Childress guy is pretty good.

No, no, this is 96. This is Tony Rutland, Rusty LaRue, Ricky Paral and Stephen Goolsbee. Yeah, Rutland was with us a few weeks ago and he said that he made sure to point out that the 96 team needs a celebration next year because that was the best Wake Forest team. That was Rutland's words, not mine.

They were so good they were 13 and three and lost the regular season seed to Georgia Tech. I got to know, though, how's Clifford the cat? He's out on walkabout this afternoon, so he's getting ready to be brought in for the evening. He's had a he's had a pretty he's had a pretty active time since I've been here since mid-March.

Yeah, well, he's he's doing all right. I can't wait for the the grand the the grand return of Packer and Durham. Can't wait. Neither can neither can my wife so I can go back to the apartment in Charlotte. Get out of her hair.

Clifford the cat. Yeah, we'll see. Wes, it's just good to hear your voice, man. Thanks, Josh.

We're on we're on we're on social media every Monday with the Q series. We're there today talking about the NFL draft and 27 ACC players being selected. But do you know that 13 of the 22 first team all ACC football players are back next year? Whoa. A lot of them play for that Clemson Tigers team.

Let me tell you where a lot of else. Jalen Twyman returns. Paris Ford returns from Pittsburgh. Boogie Basham is back for Wake Forest.

Absolutely. All first team guys. I think people people ought to take a quick check at the first and second team all ACC football teams and look at who's coming back next year. That's a pretty pretty healthy list by ACC Network at West Durham.

Find that and West. Congratulations to Robert for acquiring you to pay his ESPN points. He did it. There we go. And maybe this place is burning down.

We don't know. I haven't heard a fire alarm in the last 15 minutes. So that you'll only know when the trucks show up. You're the best. Yeah. I'm going to West Durham just holding it down in Cartersville, Georgia. Robert, what do we got and take it to the house? I'd rather talk about the beautiful tone of Wes's voice, but potatoes, potatoes, no matter how many ways you say it, you're going to eat them and you're going to like it. I'll give you my credit card number and we'll get to that story next.