This is The Drive with Josh Graham Podcast. We're internet sensations, guys. Tune into The Drive weekday afternoons, 3 to 7 on WSJS. And we're on a Monday drive. It is WSJS News Talk Sports for the Triad, where the 2025 NFL Draft is officially in the books, which means there are reactions galore from across the sports media landscape today, most of which focused on Chidor Sanders slipping to round five.
But that can wait a bit. We'll get to that in just a few minutes, because we must start with what the Carolina Panthers did. If you felt the Carolina Panthers top priority this weekend was continuing to help Bryce Young with acquiring weapons, then you likely loved what Dan Morgan in the front office accomplished. It wasn't just Teteroa, McMillan in round one or. Really, what they did in the draft, they landed two more potential targets in round five and six, plus a couple more receivers as undrafted free agents, including Musa Mohamed's son.
It wasn't just that. They landed Hunter Renfro yesterday. Didn't play last year, former Clemson star had the walk off touchdown in the national title game against Alabama. A threat in the slot, a proven target. You likely love what the front office did. If that is what you felt, the top concern going into this weekend was inside the draft, outside the draft, the Panthers making moves in that regard. However, if you thought that continuing to address the last place defense was the top concern for the Panthers. Then you're still likely having those same concerns coming out of this draft. The draft didn't change that.
Now, you might say. Well, Josh, Carolina doubled down on day two on bringing in edge rushers. They brought in Skurton from Texas A&M and Prince from Ole Miss. Brought in two of them, one of them bound to hit.
You got these two SEC edges. However, they waited until the low fifties to move up into the draft. So these are not guys who are expected to start for you right away. These are not dudes. This is not Brian Burns. This is not somebody you can just slot into your starting lineup. If it were, you'd be taking those guys in the first round.
They're hit and miss. They're probably closer to Etor Gross Matos or D.J. Johnson than they are to Brian Burns. This is not what the Atlanta Falcons did. Atlanta, see, some are treating Carolina taking two edges on day two, rounds two and three, like it's what Atlanta did, grabbing Jalen Walker and James Pierce Jr. in round one.
And it's not. You feel pretty confident. At least one of those guys are going to be starters, baby, too. That's what addressing the need looks like. Carolina is rolling the dice here. They could have taken an impact player at number eight. They could have done what Atlanta did if they moved back into the draft and take two swings on that position in round one. Instead, they selected a wide receiver on night one.
So that is still every bit the question, the question mark, the concern. That we thought it was going into the draft. It's a similar story as Panthers free agency, honestly. They could have added Eagles star defensive tackle, Milton Williams. They were at the one yard line based on the reporting we saw of getting it done.
In fact, it was reported that it was done. Yet somehow, some way the Patriots swooped in and grabbed them based on the reporting. It was because the price got bumped up at the last minute. Carolina had a certain set value for Williams. They weren't willing to go above it. So they lose that guy and instead replace them with a couple other guys that they think are pretty good. Maybe there's the chance with upside.
They could be great. Bobby Jones, the third warden. I mean, you guys that they like, but isn't. But isn't Milton Williams. That's essentially what the draft was. Hey, we didn't go receiver in round one. We didn't get the guy. We feel very confident could be a dude that we slide into this starting lineup.
So instead, here are a couple edges. Let's roll the dice to see if one of those guys could be just as productive. Same thing with Milton Williams. There's the star.
You didn't land the star. And then, OK, well, let's see if one of these guys can fill the gap there. The closest thing you got to an impact player being added on defense this offseason was safety Trayvon Morick. But even in that spot, Carolina went into the weekend with just three safeties on the roster. And you added just one in the draft and you waited to round four to do it. And Billy Bowman Jr. was on the board from Oklahoma.
And instead you go with the Ohio State Buckeye there. We'll see. The reality is that the defense is going to be as strong as the top returners on this roster are, not with what Carolina added in the offseason.
More specifically, it's probably going to come down to how healthy they are. Derek Brown only playing in one game last year. The two edges, J'Dabion Clowney played banged up. DJ Wanna missed most of the year.
J.C. Horn. Are we at the point with him because he had a Pro Bowl season where we're just going to assume he's going to stay healthy now? Can he stay healthy consecutive seasons?
Let's hope so. If they are healthy, if all those guys we just named are healthy, then this defense shouldn't be a liability like it was last year. But expecting anything more than that based on the offseason Carolina had, or really, frankly, didn't have, that's unrealistic.
That's unrealistic. This is not addressing the concerns the way Carolina addressed the offense last year. Some are making that comp, but none of these players, you're as sure as we were sure that Robert Hunt and Damian Lewis were going to fix the interior offensive line a year ago. None of these guys are as surefire of additions as that was.
So the jury is still every bit out on this Panthers defense. On X at Josh Graham show at WSJS radio. That's where we're streaming video in addition to YouTube and Twitch. However, and wherever you are listening or watching, greatly appreciate that. Will Dalton, he's the executive producer of this show. He's got Yankee year on. He's wearing it proudly.
Yes, I am. I'm an Orioles fan. I got an Orioles hat on.
I'm doing so sheepishly, sheepishly. Not going so good for your birds right now. Got shut out yesterday. Is that right? Swept. Yeah. Yeah, they meet Orioles Yankees for the first time this year in Baltimore tonight. Yeah, can we talk basketball now?
Can we just do that? Because there is news in that regard. This weekend, we learned that North Carolina was among the three finalists to land Cal transfer Andre Stoyakovich. Unfortunately for Hubert Davis, though, Stoyakovich earlier this afternoon committed to Illinois. So where does that leave the Tar Heels? If we're being honest about it, outside of the front court that Hubert has completely retooled and rebuilt, turning perhaps the worst frontline Carolina's ever had into maybe the best front court in the ACC going into next year.
Outside of that, there are questions littered all over this roster. Most notably, there is that starting spot right there. Who's going to be starting at the three small forward and wing? Who's that going to be?
We thought a week ago it would be Drake Powell. You lose him to the NBA. That's a versatile NBA level wing that's going to be hard to replace.
You're probably not going to find a guy that good in the transfer portal. But if you were going to find a consolation and we said it the day that this happened, Andre Stoyakovich wouldn't be a bad consolation. That guy was one of the leading scorers in the ACC last year. So not landing Stoyakovich, that hurts too because plan C is probably going to be just as big of a drop-off as going from Drake Powell to Stoyakovich was.
Maybe even a greater drop-off. It's possible that North Carolina's best option at that spot might be already on their roster with West Virginia transfer Jonathan Powell. 6'9", long, lanky, a good three-point shooter, led the big 12 and threes made, a big 12 freshman and threes made with 62, so that that might be the answer. And if it is, that's a bit underwhelming.
There are some questions there. Elsewhere in the lineup, Carolina doesn't have a true starting point card. They have guards who are going to start at the point, and we've seen some examples of that in Carolina history. The 2022 run, a great example of it, working with Caleb Love and RJ Davis.
Neither of them true conventional point cards. But other than that, and a few other exceptions, the Tar Heels, they've been known to always have a true point guard, like Elliott Cadeau has been the last couple of years. We don't even know who's going to start between Colorado State transfer Kyan Evans, who's a rising sophomore, and rising junior, the pride of Greensboro Day, Virginia Tech's Jaden Young, who we learned was transferring in last week.
We don't know which of the two are going to start. But regardless of who it is between those two, neither of them are true point guards. So how's that backcourt dynamic going to look? In a way, it looks like a complete inverse of last year, where you were a guard heavy team, relying on your guards in backcourt, and the big questions were in the frontcourt. Now you feel so good about your frontcourt and the additions you've made. The concerns are all in the backcourt, replacing RJ Davis, replacing Elliott Cadeau. What's the offense going to look like?
Which then brings us to the return of Seth Trimble. That is still a question. We're not questioning his leadership ability. We're not questioning the way that he defends. What we are questioning, he is the starting two guard, it would seem, and he shot less than 27% from three last year. If that isn't significantly improved, then shooting is going to be a concern for this team. So, seeing the reaction on social media, where people are already firing off on Hubert Davis, he has improved this roster. He said that the priority was to get bigger. He's done that in the post, rebuilding that front. There are questions in the backcourt, but Hubert does deserve a little bit of benefit of the doubt when you consider not many people were super psyched about Cormac Ryan when he was brought in, and that turned out to be a big one. Turned out to be a big hit. He got it right with Harrison Ingram, obviously. He's had some hits in the portal.
Now there have been some misses, too. Kay Tyson, most notably. Pete Nance, albeit there weren't a lot of options at that spot, better than Pete Nance to bring in in the off season. He's done a good job with this recruiting class. That's a top 10 recruiting class.
And also, he's not done yet. He's improved this team. The roster is going to be better. It just doesn't seem like, unless something drastic happens, that this is going to be a top 10 team.
And that's fine, but what's the problem is with Blue Bloods, the hype usually goes to a place that's a little bit farther than it should be, even if the personnel doesn't back that up. We got Anish Raaf, Voice of the Panthers, that'll be our guest on today's program. 5.30, he'll be dropping by. There is, this is the number one question that's been asked today across the country. How did Chidor Sanders fall to round five? There is, there are a lot of ways to answer that question.
The answer usually is all of the above, several reasons to give, but there is one primary reason that Chidor fell to round five. And we'll tell you what that is next. This is it. Ready? All right, hold on. All right, do it, do it, do it.
All right, listen up. This is The Drive with Josh Graham. The Drive with Josh Graham.
One, two, three. Come on, come on, come on, let's go. Come on, come on, come on, let's go. Come on, come on, come on, let's go.
Let's go, Kate. Got to be careful with some of the dancing on YouTube, Twitch, and X. Oh, do you? Some might conflate that as political messaging. Oh, yeah.
That's one thing that frustrates me. The President of the United States doing a certain dance motion that white people have been doing at weddings for decades, and now people say that's the Trump dance. I had to catch myself. I was on a dance floor at a wedding reception Saturday.
Oh, and you did it? And I, well, I was just dancing. And a friend of mine next to me is like, you're doing the Trump dance? I'm like, no, I'm just dancing.
And I had to catch myself. It's like the people who are very mad at Saquon Barkley today. Yeah. Firing off.
You know, people are really upset. But getting back. Let's go to the sidelines. Tony Haynes.
Thanks, Gary. Cain's Devils. You know what?
I'm done talking about Cain's Devils. It's time to move on. We're on to the caps.
Yeah, it's time to move on. 3-1 series lead after yesterday. The Capitals going up 3-1 as well. Let's just do this in a numbers driven way. 90% of teams that have gone up three games to one and a best of seven win their series.
90%. And I'm sure some of those exceptions, the 10%, were teams that got off to a bad start, but were probably favored in the series in the first place. The Canes of Caps were mismatches on paper going into their series.
And even more so when the series started. New Jersey already was shorthanded without Jack Hughes, but then they lose not one, not two, but three players throughout the first four games that are not going to be available in game five tomorrow night in Raleigh. So the Canes, they should close it out tomorrow night. But the Canes, they have a really good shot. They have a really good shot at the Capitals.
Everything you want to see from Carolina, we have seen so far in the playoffs. Last year, this was a concern that we had. If you have two goalies, do you have a number one? In Carolina, last year, and really the last few years, we're rotating between Freddy Anderson and Ante Ranta, Freddy Anderson and Kochek Koth. Freddy Anderson's been the guy.
He's been the number one. There's been no doubts who's going to be starting in net, game in, game out. And that's something that's really encouraging and different than past playoff runs. Another thing, we hear that your best players have to be your best players in order to win a Stanley Cup or to win a championship if you want to broaden it outside of hockey. Yes, that's true, but particularly in hockey, you need secondary scoring because I don't care how star-heavy your team is, you're going to run into a wall at some point, who's going to fill in some of that scoring? And Carolina has gotten it from its blue line.
That is such a great sign. When a team is getting secondary scoring and it's coming from your blue line, that is such a lift. Last night, Jacob Slavin made as good of a play as you're ever going to see a defenseman make. Stole the puck one-handed in the middle of the I don't care how star-heavy your team is, you're going to run into a wall at some point, who's going to fill in some of that scoring? And Carolina has gotten it from its blue line.
That is such a great sign. When a team is getting secondary scoring and it's coming from your blue line, that is such a lift. Last night, Jacob Slavin made as good of a play as you're ever going to see a defenseman make, stole the puck, one-handed it to himself to keep the zone, and then sniped a perfect shot over the shoulder.
It looked like wizardry, what Slavin did. In the game before that, it was Goss to spare who was scoring. Ghost getting on the scoreboard, or that might have been game two. Game one, it was Jalen Chatfield opening scoring. Then if you look at some of the guys on your third and fourth line, Jordan Martinuk had the shorthanded goal that turned out to be the difference for Carolina winning game two. So they should close this thing out tomorrow night, and they have a shot at Washington. Can't wait for it, frankly. Now let's get to the question everybody's been asking today.
How did Shadore Sanders not only fall out of the first round, but ended up falling to round five to the Cleveland Browns? This is such a magnetic topic. It was dinner table conversation for my wife and I this weekend. Usually I bring up a sports topic at the table, and my wife will say one of two things. One, already heard you talk about that on your show.
Thanks for listening. Secondly, if it's not that, she's like, I don't really care. Which one is it usually? The latter. Okay. But in this case, I started to explain what was happening with Shadore Sanders, and she was locked in. That's really interesting. What?
This guy fell like this? So how did it happen? The answer is a lot of things. If you want to do it, it's by percentages. It's this percentage, this.
It's like a pie chart and there are like five, six things on it that make up some percentage. But the largest piece of the pie chart, the primary reason that Shadore Sanders fell to round five is his dad, Deion Sanders, that man. He is primarily responsible for what happened because we can all agree on a couple of things here. We can agree on two things, I think, when talking about this. Number one, we can agree that he should not have fallen to the fifth round. Let's hope we can agree at least on that point. He should not have fallen that far. But on the other end of the spectrum, we probably can agree that he should not have been a first round draft pick or at least not a top ten draft pick like was projected.
Hopefully we can agree on those two fronts when talking about this. So why is it Deion Sanders? Well many people within the league believe that Deion tried to manipulate the draft process. A year ago, actually for years going back to 2018 now, Deion suggested he might pull an Eli Manning, that's his expression, an Eli Manning if he didn't like Shadore's destination.
During the season last year, when it seemed the Raiders were the worst team in the league, he would tweet out, thank you God, after Raider losses. As if to say, having Shadore go to a place where Tom Brady owns the team probably best for Shadore, trying to manipulate things a bit. It is not a stretch to think that that type of thinking, manipulating where you're going to end up, led to Shadore Sanders reportedly sandbagging combined interviews. As if to say, if it's not a team I want to end up at, I'm going to tank this job interview.
I'm going to make it look like the scene out of Step Brothers where they're wearing tuxedos and talking about the Pan-Pam dilemma. Here was Jonathan Jones from CBS, one of the top insiders in the game on this subject. At the NFL scouting combine in Indianapolis, at some of those meetings with certain teams that maybe Shadore Sanders didn't really want to go to, didn't see himself going to, for any number of reasons, maybe they had a starting quarterback installed there. I was told that he more or less sandbagged in those interviews. I don't know if he didn't take them seriously, what it was, but he did not give it his all in some of those interviews, rubbed some teams the wrong way. And that gets back to probably the teams that he did care about those interviews with.
It's a small industry, it's a small field, people talk. So Deion Sanders manipulating the draft process, do you believe? Then Deion tried to manipulate the media as well.
He is a primary reason, maybe not the only reason, the media deserves some blame in this. Like the entire idea of a mock draft, doing mock drafts is probably responsible for this because you do it for clicks. Why do mock drafts exist? Because people read them and generally they react more, it creates more traffic when you include quarterbacks, especially if the quarterback happens to be the son of one of the more polarizing figures in sports.
Do you believe? That's a big part of this mock drafts for sure. But Deion saying all year that Chidor Sanders is a top five pick, Chidor is a top five pick, he constantly said he was, and attacking the credible folks in the media, the national media, who even have the most benign of criticism out there, it discourages folks to say what was true that they're hearing Chidor wasn't going to be a first round pick.
That was drowned out by the hype surrounding Chidor. A good example would be Dan Orlovsky. Dan Orlovsky, he's not known to be hot take guy. Dan Orlovsky is not really hated by anybody. But last week, Dan Orlovsky said there's things on tape that concern him about Chidor.
He might fall out of the first round. And how did Deion respond? On social media, he said Dan Orlovsky is a hater, essentially attacking Dan Orlovsky for giving his honest assessment, which turned out to be pretty spot on. And you can bet that impacted how other draft experts covered Chidor. Not to say that they had Chidor a lot higher because of Deion Sanders. But if there were concerns, maybe they were more muted about those concerns, didn't hit on those concerns as strongly as they would have if their dad wasn't Deion Sanders. So because of all of this, teams decided to back up quarterback wasn't worth the circus.
See these two things married to each other, hey, they're going to they're trying to manipulate where they go. Number one, teams don't like that very much. And number two, everybody in the media is saying that this guy's a top five pick. So the fans believe he's a top five pick.
And when he falls outside the first round, now it's a circus where he's going to end up. And the moment our starting quarterback has a bad game, everybody's going to be calling for this guy to start for our team. And you're going to have a coach at Colorado, people stick a microphone in front of each week, every time your starter has a bad game, probably going to be saying Chidor what had happened if Chidor was the starting quarterback, and who knows, he's coached Chidor every level high school, college at both Jackson State and Colorado, who's to say if that coach is on the hot seat, the rumblings don't start of Diem wanting to jump to the pros to coach Chidor.
Just saying those are things that you might not want to touch. And again, after round one, you're looking for a backup quarterback, it became a circus where people were talking about collusion and racism and all these things factoring into it. The reality is, he wasn't as good, he wasn't good enough to be a first round draft pick. And that wasn't talked about enough because people were probably worried, some of the national folks that Deion Sanders would come after him and call him a hater if they said that out loud, or at least all the people that follow Colorado football would feel that way. And they tried to manipulate the draft process and guys didn't like that.
So you go from probably being a second round pick to being a fifth round draft pick because of those things. Because of the circus you created in the media and you trying to manipulate the process in a way that was obvious. That's why Chidor falls to round five. Just realized we didn't shame WD for picking the Lakers to win the title before the NBA playoffs started and the Lakers now trail Minnesota 3-1 in their first round series.
Sorry about that, Will. It's not over yet. It's not over yet. My Cleveland pick's looking good right now.
You picked... Oh, well. To go in the East. They were the one seed, Will.
You know, Jason Tatum keeps getting hurt out here. They were the one seed. Not saying they're looking bad, but they're doing what they're supposed to do in round one.
That's what they're doing thus far. You also picked North Carolina to win the national championship. You might be the only person in America who has predictions for the NBA finals and the Final Four that the team that they picked in either case was eliminated in the first round.
You might be the only person, I can't be. Eliminated in round one. Before we break down the NFL draft, attaching grades to the Panthers draft, let's hit on the NBA with Doug and Winston Salem. He's got an NBA question for us. Doug, go right ahead. Josh, how are you doing today? That Belichick thing is beyond creepy, but anyway. Thank you.
Beyond creepy. Now that Lillard's out for the year and possibly next year with a torn Achilles, I don't think it could be a better time to let's go ahead and get what we can for Melo, but you can go to Milwaukee and bring the Greek freak to Charlotte because pitchers are going to get high. Most of you guys are smart for down three, one out, there's going to be some serious talks going on.
Okay, thank you, Doug. I was with you until you threw Giannis' name in there. The Hornets aren't going to bring in Giannis.
Let's start there. If you're talking about bringing in a point guard to replace Dame in an effort to keep Giannis happy, it's fair to look at Lamello as somebody you can bring in as a replacement. But you just contradicted the thinking by attaching Giannis to this. The reason you would think about bringing in Lamello at all is to keep Giannis healthy and keep the team competitive.
If you were interested in bringing in Lamello in exchange for Giannis, well, you're not doing yourself any good. But you are hitting on something that is interesting with the Hornets this offseason. This staff, talking about Charles Lee's staff, first year coach, and Jeff Peterson who took over in March roughly of last year, has now had ample time to evaluate the players on this team. And it does seem that this could be a transformative offseason for Charlotte. Most obviously if they get the ping pong balls to fall in their favor in a couple of weeks, two weeks from tonight actually, is the draft lottery. If they get the number one pick, you get Cooper Flag, maybe you're more apt to make some moves rebuilding for the future. Because you do have two players on your team that other NBA squads might have interest in that are competing for titles in a way Charlotte is not right now, and you're willing to move off of thinking they aren't your franchise core players.
Lamello is one of those given the fact the last three years the most games he's played in, 47. Not great. Mark Williams, you already traded him once, is that a guy you're going to keep as part of the air quote core four, that's up in the air.
So Charlotte does have pieces to make a blockbuster trade, but it will not be to bring a star back in, it would still be building towards the future. Now let's grade the Carolina Panthers draft, attaching letter grades to it, and Graham's grades. Every week is a test for your favorite sports teams. Who passed the test? I don't know. Who dropped the ball?
I don't know. Josh Graham has the answers. What time for Graham's great ABCDF. Looking at what the Carolina Panthers did with their eight selections in the 2025 draft, let's start on a positive in a doubling down on edge rushers. You bring in Skurton from Texas A&M, you bring in Prince from Ole Miss.
One of those guys are bound to hit. You traded up a few spots to bring in the A&M star. You feel Prince falls right into your lap. Did you listen to Prince's call with Dan Morgan? No. He sounded ticked that he fell to that spot. He even said on the call at one moment, he goes, Coach, I'm going to be recouping a lot of the money that I'm losing from falling here essentially three, four years when you give me that extension, kind of to say that.
AKA a dog. You hope that one of these guys is. So how do you send the message that we know we need help on the edge after going receiver in round one? You take not one, but two edges on day two, rounds two and three respectively. B Notre Dame tight end Mitchell Evans in round five.
This is an excellent value. You know why? Notre Dame's always turning out tight ends, really good tight ends. And Mitch Evans at worst is an Ian Thomas tie style blocking tight end that you can really lean on in the run game, which Carolina hopes to be really good in. Just listen to Dave Canales how often he talks about wanting to run the ball and how they just paid Chuba Hubbard.
But he also could catch it, too. So there's a ceiling to his game versus where you took him in round five that I think is a tremendous value for Carolina C Georgia running back Trevor ETN is a C. There were better running backs, it seemed available on the board. But do you know what Trevor ETN is really reliable in? Kick return. So in this draft, you it looks like you've identified who your kick return is going to be. In fact, we could have included this higher special teams.
They seem to address some concerns. You didn't need to draft the kicker because one of those three ACC kickers were going to fall out of the draft and be available as an undrafted rookie free agent and W.D. And you know it, Florida State's Ryan Fitzgerald among the undrafted guys that Carolina signed. He might be the starting kicker for Carolina. A lot the like from him. But is he going to help you all that much outside of the kick return game? Hard to say. Thought there were better running backs on the board. So it's a it's a mess.
It's a mixed reaction, a mixed bag. Why it's a C for Georgia running back Trevor ETN. Tetoroa McMillan. This is the greatest gamble of the draft, Will. And here's the thing. They clearly feel that he's one of the best players in this draft.
This is not a reach in their minds. But as somebody who follows wide receivers pretty closely, I'm a volleyball voter, by the way, because you didn't know that I, I didn't feel that McMillan was this elite can't miss NFL prospect. And I thought I still think that's what you should be drafting if you're taking a receiver in the top ten. If you're taking a receiver in the top ten, they better be Julio Jones in his prime. It better be Tyreek Hill where you watch him on tape.
There isn't anybody else in the shop. That's not who McMillan is. And it's a huge gamble. It's the greatest gamble in the top ten. And thus it's a D. F. Selecting just one safety and you do so in round four. Now it's an Ohio State Buckeye where it seemed every Buckeye off this title team was drafted. But Billy Bowman Jr. was a guy that Mike Kayon and I were talking about on Friday. If he's there in the fourth round, you should take and he was there. And you go with ETN, the running back, and then he was there again when you traded back in. We're thinking, oh, it's a safety. You got to go safety. It's going to be Billy Bowman Jr. And you don't take him.
And who does Atlanta? Because of course they did. You only take one safety. You probably needed to take two and you wait till round four to do so. And it's not what seems to be the best option on the board. So to me, if there is an F to grade in this year's draft, that's it. That's this year's draft graded in Graham's grade. Let's continue to react to the Carolina Panthers draft from over the weekend. We will welcome in the general manager of the Carolina Panthers, Dan Morgan, on Wednesday afternoon. Right now, it's the voice of the Carolina Panthers, Aneesh Raf.
Good to see you, Aneesh. Let's start with the first rounder on Thursday. Teteroa McMillan out of Arizona seemed to be a lot higher on the Panthers board than any mock draft you see out there. When did his name start to appear on your radar screen as a guy that Carolina really likes a lot?
Josh, he was somebody who I think was always there on the periphery. And what crystallized for me the moment after the pick was a conversation that I had with Brand Tillis of the Combine. He said, the Panthers want to get to a point when they close out free agency. The roster is in the type of shape where you can go play a football game. And that means when you head into the draft, you can now go and take the best player available regardless of position. So you have McMillan at a spot on your draft board where you believe he is a game changing, franchise changing type of wide receiver, head and shoulders above any other wide receiver in that draft class. You're now feeling comfortable that you can go pull that trigger and you can get the defensive guys that you might need a little later on. So I think to me it signaled the philosophy of this regime, hey, take the best player available. Don't overthink this and draft for need and then have regret a few years later. This weekend, I think, and every year, we learn that mock drafts don't mean much of anything at all versus what these boards look like.
The Shadore Sanders situation probably the best way to emphasize that. But here's the information we received in real time about the Panthers pick when they took McMillan. We knew that there were trade offers that they had on the table. And Ian Rappaport said Carolina bypassed those options to take a guy they felt was the best player on the board. And that point was emphasized strongly when Dave Canales kind of as a passing comment said when Cleveland selected Mason Graham, there was relief.
There was some celebration even that they were going to get their guy and most every mock draft that you see. Almost all of them had Carolina probably or Mason Graham as a prospect above McMillan and Carolina obviously had a need in that area. To me, I think that just emphasizes how strongly Carolina felt about McMillan. There were reports that Dallas badly wanted him, that the Rams were trying to get in the top 10 to take him.
That's the piece that I didn't realize. And also the Bryce Young piece, none of us had the info that Bryce is going into Dan Morgan's office advocating for him, according to McMillan himself. I guess what did you find most interesting or what's something you heard after the fact that surprised you about Carolina's courting of McMillan, but also vice versa?
Well, I'll start here. I think when we taped our pre-draft show on Thursday and we used essentially an aggregate of like the seven most popular mock drafts to simulate picks one through seven and it was myself, Al Wallace, TD Thomas Davis. Those two guys, Jalen Walker, I went with Mason Graham. Sort of same lines of thinking that defense, given what happened last year, that's going to be the need. Let's go and improve the defense.
Let's take some of these guys. Graham goes off the board. Walker is still there. I'm sitting there on my couch going, all right, it's gotta be Jalen Walker, right?
But I think we had talked about this before. A Tetero McMillan, a Tyler Ward. I thought there was a possibility there because again, you've made the case, we've all made the case. Hey, maybe that number one alpha wide receiver, alpha pass catcher, maybe he's on the roster. We don't know that, but when you look at the comps for Tetero McMillan and the one that I saw circulated by multiple experts was Mike Evans and we unfortunately have to see Mike Evans twice every year and it's been that way for a decade and if we have our own Mike Evans, I mean, listen, we don't need to present the evidence from what we've seen twice a year.
I think that speaks, that's already been spoken. So this guy checks off a lot of boxes, he's 6'5, he's got a big catch radius. He gives an emerging offense and an emerging quarterback another weapon.
I get it. Let's flip it to the defense. There seems to be this idea that the off season was going to make or break the defense. So you're looking at these additions, oh, this is how much better the defense is going to be based on who you add. However, given the additions that we've seen, it still feels to me, this isn't being talked about enough, but it's the reality that this defense is going to be as good as the health of the guys who largely weren't healthy last year. Obviously Derek Brown, but can JC Horn stay healthy for a second straight year? Can the edges that you brought in last off season, Clowney and Wanam, stay healthy too?
We don't quite know that. What's your read on the current state of a defense that's been talked about a lot this off season? Yeah, so two things.
I think there's truth in what you're saying, but I think you're missing one big point. That is last year, when the team decided to invest in offense, the calculus on defense was, hey, if everybody stays healthy, we can hold the fort on defense. There was no depth on defense last year, and that was the gamble and the gambit. And when guys started getting hurt, Shaq Thompson, Derek Brown, you go down the list, you saw that the Panthers were essentially mining the waiver wire using practice squad guys. When you look at the defense now this year, take Shai Tuttle, for example, he comes back on a pay cut.
Shai Tuttle may have to fight to make the roster this year. He was a starting defensive lineman a year ago, or now he's a guy you plug in if somebody gets hurt. There is more depth along the front seven. That wasn't there last year. You were filling those spots when injuries happened, and injuries do happen in the NFL.
You were filling those spots last year with guys who, A, weren't ready, or B, were practice squad guys, or C, guys who had been cast off from other organizations. So they addressed the depth. I'm not saying they're there, that it is a finished product, that it's a championship defense.
That's not what I'm saying. But there's more depth this year on the defensive side of the ball. It's not going to look like Washington last year when you're missing a lot of your starters, and then you see what the bottom can really look like for Carolina. Yeah, they've addressed the depth. But I do think it's important to set expectations a little bit.
You do see, okay, they doubled down on some edges in day two. You take- Well, Josh, part of that too, part of that too, I thought when they took McMillan, and this crystallized the next day, I thought that was a good job by the front office of reading how the draft was going to fall, and reading the defensive end market. Jalen Walker didn't go off the board until pick 15 to Atlanta. So sometimes they'd say, we want to get this guy here because the next wide receiver, there's a significant drop off. With the edge rushers, it wasn't quite the same. And so you have to give the front office credit.
They read the room. They read the draft. Okay, we can go get an impact player later in the draft. We can go address this position later and still get quality, still get a productive player.
I think sometimes people lose sight of that. Hey, you reach for a guy and it's like, well, you could have waited a couple of rounds and still gotten a guy who was 85% as good and addressed another position or taken another player earlier in the draft. All I'm saying is that there are some reacting to the day two picks as if they did what Atlanta did in round one.
Since you brought up the example, they went all in and brought in two of those edges off the top of the board. And I'm saying once you get past round one, I don't care what position you're talking about. Maybe, guard, this is a little bit different running back as well. But when you're talking about premium positions, it's harder to find plug and play starters once you get past round one. So if the expectation is Carolina just found a starter in the form of Skurton from Texas A&M or Prince from Ole Miss, I don't know if that's a fair assessment right out of the gate. But addressing the depth that you're talking about, that this is going to be a rotation player or these guys are going to be that, well, then you definitely achieve that. Well, and again, some of these guys may end up being starters. They may not be year one starters, but that's part of building a foundation on both sides of the ball. Brady Christensen right now is a guy that you can make a case for, could be a starting lineman anywhere in the NFL. Panthers have them as a backup, somebody goes down, you plug them in, you feel pretty good about that.
You need those type of guys. And I think with the two guys that you mentioned with Skurton, with Princely, Uman Miele, those are two players who could become not just rotational guys, who could become significant pieces to your defense. To me, that's the trick in this whole draft.
You get past round one, past round two, how many starters can you find round three through seven? Because that impacts what you do in free agency. That impacts how you allocate resources.
That impacts how you manage the cap. When you can find cost effective guys to be starters in rounds three through seven, to me, that extends your contention window. That's the thing that the Ravens do and teams like the 49ers have done, teams like the Seahawks have done, where their rebuilds and their dips don't last long and they're back up into some form of contention on a regular basis because they find guys later in the draft. It's also awareness as well of your depth chart and your contract sheet where last year, you look at the first four picks that they made. When they had Deontay Johnson, they knew it was a one-year deal. So you bring in a wide receiver that you hope at this time now is going to be one of your starters.
And lo and behold, Xavier LeGette is that. And then round two, Shuba Hubbard had not signed his extension yet. You bring in Jonathan Brooks. Round three, Trevin Wallace. We know Shaq Thompson the last year of his deal. The fourth round, Tommy Trimble, Ian Thomas at the end. Here comes J.T.
Sanders. So maybe you look at DJ Wanam, Ja'Davion Clowney being on the last year of their deals. These are guys that you hope can develop to be those starters moving forward and the same for McMillan since Adam Thielen is going into the last year of his deal as well.
Let's close here by looking big picture, though. It was a great feeling towards the end of last season, how Bryce Young played, how they closed out the year. And I hope that people don't take it too far in talking about what the expectations from winning five last year should be going into this year. It seems a lot of Panther fans are saying, well, if you don't win the division, it's a failure. Vegas sets a number and it's six and a half wins. If you win seven, oh, you win that.
If you win eight, you still probably don't win the division. But I think objectively, that's a nice jump. The best way I can put it, Aneesh, and I'm interested in what you think, is that the jump from being bad to being mediocre slash average is a smaller leap than the leap now Carolina is trying to make between being average to being a good football team. How do you frame a fair expectation for what this football team should be in 2025? Don't we see this every year in the NFL, though? That's the great thing about this league. If you draft right and you hit on a couple of free agents and you get a couple of draft classes together that can produce some impact players, you can expedite the whole process. We saw it with Washington last year. Two years ago, Washington was one of the worst teams in the league. They go out and make some splashes in free agency. They go get Jayden Daniels. They hit on some draft picks.
All of a sudden, well, Washington is, what were they, in the NFC championship, right? It can happen quickly in this league. So I'm not sure I buy that argument completely. What I will say, you do have to remember, progress sometimes isn't always linear, right?
It's three steps up, maybe a step back, then maybe another three steps up or two steps up. So we've seen that play out as well. But given the state of this division, I think it's reasonable to expect Carolina to be in this thing. If you look at the offense, you bring back the play caller. You bring back most of the key pieces. You've now added a tight end. You've added a wide receiver, who you hope can be a number one wide receiver.
I would make the case, the running back room is a lot stronger. The quarterback has another year, played well toward the end of last year. Let's say the offense shows incremental growth because of all the things that I just outlined, continuity, a lot of the same faces. So the offense just takes the next gradual step. We're not saying the offense has to take a great leap forward, just a small step. And then if the defense can go from historically bad to, what do you want to say, average? Not a liability.
Not a liability. How about that? What happens if you go from historically bad to just average on defense? How many wins is that worth? Three?
Yeah. And that, and again, to clarify my position, I'm not saying they can't win the division. They should be in the mix for it. I just don't want to arrive at this place where people were saying, if you don't win the NFC south, this is somehow a failure. I think seven to eight wins is a good jump.
Well, here's how I look at it, right? I think if, we'll see how the schedule looks in a couple of weeks. We know who the opponents are, but if you look at, let's say the four or five games on your schedule that you say, these are bona fide wins.
These are games you got to have. And then you say, all right, there's probably going to be three, four or five games where you're going to lose. That's the NFL. So now you take those middle seven, eight games, whatever it is.
Those generally come down to, for most of those teams in the middle, play here or play there. Can you go make that play? And I think if we put ourselves in that position, and I think the Panthers have done that, where you're now back to feeling like, okay, we're not trying to compete with everybody with a short-handed roster, with a decimated roster.
You've got a full deck. You feel good. You feel good about your chances, especially in that division. I look at the Saints.
This is probably going to be a rebuilding year for the Saints. The Bucks have some questions about age on their defense. We talked about Mike Evans and Godwin. They're both getting up there. At some point, Mike Evans has to age.
At some point, it has to happen. We know how good this young core is for the Falcons, but Michael Penix, what kind of sophomore year does he have, showed some promise right as a rookie. So I think there's a lot of questions within the division. I think the Panthers are in a position. I'm not going to go out and say, hey, this is a Super Bowl team in 2025.
I do think they are significantly improved on defense. And I think on offense, if you take that next step, I expect this team to be in most games this season and to have a shot. Last year was strange in the fact that I remember looking at the schedule in October, Josh, and I said, hey, October, you got a shot here. There's three rookie quarterbacks you could potentially face in October ended up being a complete zero. Then you're looking at the back end of the schedule like, oh, no, Philly, Kansas City, Tampa. And then all of a sudden the back end of the schedule, you go toe to toe with some of those teams and you're right there in games against Tampa and Philly and Kansas City. So this thing could be very fickle, but I can tell you just to somebody who's now been calling Panther games for three years going on year four, I'm excited, man.
I'm excited. There's genuine buzz. The depth, the playmakers they have coming back, the guys they've added, what they've done in free agency. I think one thing to focus on too is some of the free agents they got. Some of these guys who have flashed, they're still young, young free agents where you say, there's still some room, there's still some upside. You're not getting finished products, you got guys with growth.
It's not guys on the downside of their careers. I'll be honest with you, Josh, I'm excited and I think there's a lot to like. Yeah. Later this week, I expect some text messages from you of great Kentucky Derby horse names since the Kentucky Derbies this weekend, voice of the Panthers, Anish Ralph with us here. We'll have to bring in your broadcast partner, Jake Deloam. He joins us every year to help us sort out the field of the Kentucky Derby since he actually is an expert on these things.
Yes. I just name horses. He wins with them. Jake wins with them. Jake's got real horses. Jake's the guy. Well, if I have a horse raising question, I go to Jake, but I know the Derbies this week. I'm actually, my focus this week is lacrosse, got the ACC tournament coming to Charlotte.
So that's where I'm at now. Uh, somebody, uh, hit me up with a field of 68 as being a great horse name perhaps. And I'm like, eh, it's okay. We can maybe do better than that. You gotta ask Jake about this. Are numbers allowed? Oh, great. Great point. I think you'd have to spell it out. I don't know if you can do it. Uh, that's a great question.
If numbers are allowed, uh, we'll get to the bottom of that. Anish, Anish, thank you for making the time. It's good to see you. Good to hear your voice and, uh, enjoy the Derby this weekend. See you.
