When Sickness Comes—How to Pray, What to Expect

When sickness comes, how to pray, what to expect. That is the topic we'll discuss today right here on the Christian Worldview radio program where the mission is to sharpen the biblical worldview of Christians and to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ.

I'm David Wheaton, the host. Thank you for joining us today and supporting the ministry of the Christian Worldview. And also thank you to our national sponsor Samaritan Ministries, who provide a biblical solution to healthcare.

You can find out more about Samaritan Ministries and the Christian Worldview by going to our website, thechristianworldview.org. It's not if you will get seriously sick or injured in life, not if you will face a trial that is out of your control, but when it will happen. That is because we live in a world that went from perfection, when God originally created it, to corruption due to Adam's sin and by extension our sin. Man's rebellion against God resulted in disease, violence, accidents, pain, conflicts, and ultimately death. Romans 6 23 says the wages of sin is death.

The consequence of sin is death and corruption on this world. So how should Christians view and respond to trials when they invariably come our way? Should we pray to be healed of our maladies, expecting God to do so?

What happens when God doesn't answer our prayers the way we have asked? Costi Hinn is our guest this weekend on the Christian Worldview. He knows all about the errant theology and empty promises of faith healers.

He is the nephew of internationally known faith healer fraudster Benny Hinn, with whom Costi formally, quote unquote, ministered. God miraculously saved Costi out of that lucrative heresy, and now Costi has written a book entitled More Than a Healer to help readers understand that God uses sickness and trials to transform us and bring him glory. Now this topic of healing and how to pray and what to expect has much more personal relevance this week for our family after my wife Brody took a very treacherous fall from our attic through a trap door down to the concrete floor of our garage. And she badly fractured her heel and will require surgery this coming week. We're already thankful knowing that this could have been so much worse than it is. But we also know that this is a serious injury and we're not sure how this is going to turn out for her going forward. So we are in prayer about this and we would appreciate your prayer on our behalf. This is something that not only we are going through, but I'm sure many of you are going through as well with your own circumstances. We have other friends and members of our own family who have even more serious health challenges than we are facing right now. So I think this conversation with Costi Hinn will be of help not only to us, but hopefully for you as well as we consider how to pray in the midst of trials in our life.

What we can expect from God and what ultimately his greatest purposes are that are even greater than sometimes what we pray for healing. Let's get to the first segment of the interview with Costi Hinn. Costi, thank you so much for coming back on the Christian worldview radio program today to talk about your brand new book, which is just releasing now, More Than a Healer. You've been on the program before and many listeners will remember your story, but for those who haven't heard you previously, describe the world of faith healing that you were in that God brought you out of. I was steeped in it pretty deeply.

I grew up in it and then worked in it. My uncle is Benny Hinn, my dad is Henry Hinn, and he was a practicing faith healer and pastor and evangelist for as long as I can remember growing up. And so I grew up in that world and we're very close with Uncle Benny and their ministry.

I worked for him for almost a couple of years and so traveled the world, lived the high life, all of that. And we were definitely preaching a faith healing gospel where Jesus will save you from your sin, but also he will heal you of all sickness. And that confession is sort of a package deal and salvation is a package deal and the gospel is a package deal. And that is you confess your sin and you confess Christ as Lord and he'll save you. And then you confess by faith that you are healed and he'll heal you as well. And so it was a hybrid with the prosperity gospel in that Jesus's highest goal is for us to be healthy, wealthy and happy here on earth.

And so I believed that, I taught that, I eventually was saved out of that. And that's a story that we've talked about before on your show and wrote in the other book, God Greed and the Prosperity Gospel and sharing what the Lord's done in our life. And then of course, the true gospel and the balanced biblical teaching on healing, money, faith, all of it, but most importantly, the sovereign nature of our God and Jesus and the message of the gospel, the pure and unadulterated message of the gospel is repentance and faith in Christ. So we came out of that prosperity gospel faith healing world and now get the privilege of walking with the body of Christ in truth. Yeah, that's the greatest miracle of healing that God brought you out of that whole world. So much of what we see on Christian television, on the internet and so forth has healing as such a central part of these so-called ministries.

And there's a spectrum out there. There's the kind of the world you came from with actually faith healers and touching people, knocking them over. Everyone's seen that on TV, but there's also a spectrum where, you know, even in a more charismatic and who aren't into that kind of thing, but they're into believing in that God heals and you got to have faith to have God heal you. And even into the evangelical church, there's a bit of this faith healing worldview, I'd say. So talk about this wide spectrum of different perspectives on healing. Yeah, I think there's there is a spectrum, no doubt.

And what we'll find is the more extreme view, right? That it's always God's will and you just need to have enough faith. And if there's if you're not getting healed, there's something wrong with you. You're not tapping into what Jesus has already provided for. But I think we need to discuss another element of it on the other side of the spectrum, which would be probably for people in our circles, David, where you've been obedient, you've been righteous, you've been following the Lord and God is not doing something that you want Him to do, or you do have a need and now you pray for it.

And I'm not accusing you or I or all of us of this. I would just say the tagline or the phrase I would give it is prosperity gospel light. It's like the diet version where we think that if we're good and we're moral, when we're obedient and man, we are not like that faith healer. We're not like that prosperity preacher that God is going to bless us.

And so I think we could find a good example of this in the life of Job. Here we have a righteous man. We have a man who is holy. We have a man who is obedient. We have a man who's blessed and he's wealthy.

Things are going great for him. And while I don't think that the devil is going to have a conversation with God about all of us and be given permission to strike us with illness or do all that the devil was allowed to do to Job. I think there's a great example there of even the righteous will suffer. Even the righteous will go through challenging times. Faith does not guarantee that you're going to get healed. It doesn't even guarantee that if you walk righteously that all the blessings of God and the atonement and Christ are going to pour out on your life now. What salvation and true faith guarantees us is life in heaven, life eternal, treasure in heaven. And yes, a time when no more pain, no more sickness, no more tears will all be a reality.

When the dead in Christ will rise, when all of us will be made new, when we'll get a glorified body. But for now, we have to trust in faith for salvation. We look to Christ for that and then we have to trust him based on who he is as a sovereign God who is good no matter what, even when things are not good. And he is loving even when we don't feel very loved the way we want to be loved, which is often in our human state, Lord bless me, Lord help me, Lord give me the breakthrough, give me the healing, give me the saved children, give me the job promotion. We want life to go good and we got to say this, there's nothing wrong with that.

It's entirely human and entirely normal to want to be able to pay your bills, to not want to watch your child suffer. I think we just need to remember though that God doesn't change in the midst of those circumstances when things aren't going the way they want and we are a person of faith and we've been faithful, we still can trust that God is still who he is. I think there's a spectrum here where Christians need to take a deeper look at what it means to trust the Lord and that's what the book drives.

We cover in chapter 1 that Jesus is a healer, but then the rest of the book, I wanted people to go on a journey with me through all of these other beautiful elements of who the Lord is because faith can become short-sighted based on what God does for us, not based on all that he is. Yeah, you described that as more of a transactional faith versus a transformational faith. Just describe what that is briefly so listeners understand that concept. Yeah, transactional faith, just like a bank transaction. I swipe the card, I get money out or I do this for you, you do this for me and we do that with God sometimes, whether we mean to or not. God, if I obey, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that and all I'm asking you for, Lord, is this. If I do my part, God, I'm just asking you to do and then you just fill in the blank.

That's transactional. Transformational faith is God, you are sovereign, you're in control. God, you unfold your plan. God, your will be done and in the process, if that means blessings of wealth and it means open doors and it means opportunity for me, protect my heart from those things, help me to walk in righteousness, help me to be obedient, help me to remember I'm a steward, that I am only blessed to be a blessing for your glory, that my hands are to be open. I receive with one hand open and I give with my other hand open that I'm part of your ecosystem. Lord, transform the way I think. None of this is deserved, all of it's grace and mercy.

And then, David, we flip over to the other side. Well, Lord, help me when things aren't going well. Transform my thinking, protect me from believing you're not good because my situation isn't good. Transform my view of faith, help me to be the James 1, 2 through 4, that I count it all joy.

Transform my mind from aggressive, angry, grieving, frustrated, to not aggressive, but still grieving. I'm allowed to mourn, I'm allowed to be sad, I'm allowed to even feel pain, but help me to be filled with joy still. Give me a Romans 5, rejoice in suffering attitude. Give me a character that's proven, which Paul then says leads to hope because I know that I'm saved. And then I think through all the different examples in the New Testament, like Peter and the guys are getting beaten and they count it a privilege to suffer for the name. And Paul and Silas are praising in the prison. And they're just pumped to sing praises to the Lord no matter what. Look at the pattern of the New Testament.

Even Stephen in Acts 7, the first martyr, is looking upward and very much like the example of Christ, praying that things that are happening have not be held against his murdering persecutors. What a transformational way to look at suffering in this world. So God, keep me stable, humble, faithful if things are going great. And Lord, help me to be faithful and endure when things are not. That's transformational. It's God, you do what you do and change me into the image of Christ.

Transactional is God, I do what I do and now you do what I want you to do. The Christian Worldview with David Wheaton returns in just a moment. Psalm 46 starts, God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. Therefore, we will not fear, though the earth should change. The earth is changing.

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Now, back to today's program with host David Wheaton. Well, that's going to be sort of the goal of our conversation today, to get from a transactional thinking when it comes to bad things that happen to us, whether it's sickness or otherwise, to a transformational, let God transform our character, to see as He does, have His perspective on things. Kosti Hinn is our guest today here on The Christian Worldview, a pastor and author of the book.

We're discussing More Than a Healer. He's also the president and founder of For the Gospel. This is a ministry that provides sound doctrine for every day.

People through weekly videos, articles, and a podcast, forthegospel.org is the website. Let's go to the foundation. You have some foundational principles about the why question. Why do we get sick? Why do difficult things happen to us?

That sort of thing that people often ask. Let's answer that question first. You say in the book, number one, sickness and death enter the world through original sin, that would be Adam and Eve. Number two, sickness and death can strike us because of our own sin.

There can be that. We've done something and God strikes us with sickness and death. You see examples of that in Scripture. Number three, though, sickness and death are not always the result of our sin. Number four, you write, God can use sickness and death for his glory and the good of others. Maybe pick one that is often abused or misunderstood today of those four fundamentals you write about on why we get sick or why we have trials or why we have disease and death.

That's a good question. I can only pick one. You can summarize all four if you like.

Let's do sickness and death can be used by God for his glory and the good of others. In the book, I used an example that struck me when I read it for the first time. James Montgomery Boyce, faithful pastor, legendary Harvard grad. He's a theologian and he gets diagnosed with terminal cancer.

He gets up, it's Sunday, May 7th, the year is 2000, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, takes the pulpit to address his congregation. A lot of them had said, hey, what can we do? We're praying, we're praying, we're praying. What can we do to serve you?

What can we do to help you with all that you're going through? He gets up and he captures the perspective that I wanted to convey in that point that God uses sickness. He can use it.

I know this is crazy to some people and some viewpoints on this, but he can. He can use sickness and suffering for his glory and the good of others. Boyce gets up and says, a number of you have asked what you can do and it strikes me that what you can do, you already are doing. This is a good congregation. You do the right things. You're praying certainly.

I've been assured of that by many people. He basically says, a lot of you have said, what can you pray for? Should you pray for a miracle? He says, well, you're free to do that, of course. But the same God who allowed the cancer to enter my body is the same God that can do a miracle.

And so he can. But although miracles happen, what I really would like you to pray for is that God be glorified. Pray for the glory of God. And if he said, if you think of God glorifying himself in history and you say, where in all of history has God most glorified himself? Boyce says he did it at the cross of Christ. It wasn't by delivering Jesus from the cross, though he could have. Jesus said, don't you think I could call down my father from heaven to send 10 legions of angels to my defense?

But he didn't do that. And yet that's where God was most glorified. And so, David, I would put in front of all of us, not an asceticism that, oh, you should just suffer and don't you dare expect anything from God.

He just wants to crush you and make you sick so he can get a bunch of Gloria. Not that attitude, but that in all things, God can be glorified. And what we'll hear, this is the challenging part, often from prosperity preachers, you might hear your famous or big name, rah rah kind of guy on TV or on YouTube. And what do they say? They say really pithy things that are true, but then apply them in the wrong way.

Here's an example. You might hear a prosperity preacher say, God's going to give you purpose in your pain. The breakthrough is on the other side of the burden right now. Your blessing is coming, right?

And they do all that and people shout and they stand and they say, amen, let's go. Yes, give me the blessing in exchange for my burden. Give me the prosperity after the pain and all of that.

There's a little bit of truth there. Here's the thing that we need to understand. God will and can use your pain and he will turn it into purpose, but it will not necessarily mean job promotions, healing, bigger houses, Bentleys and you looking back and never having to go through another trial like you did. It will be that he is glorified through your faithfulness. You know, those moments when people get sick or they're going through a lot and they still rejoice or like James Boyce. They say, pray for the glory of God and people go, what? Man, what a perspective.

How is it that you think that way? And what do you do? Because Christ, Christ is in me. I have him.

I have everything. Eternity outweighs what I'm experiencing right now. That which is eternal over that which is temporal. It's an other world perspective. And that is weird.

It's different and it gets people's attention. It brings God glory. Another example I put in the book is from Nancy Guthrie, who is no stranger to pain and losing children. God has taken all of that. And while it'll never replace the loss of her children.

And it will never make the pain disappear. And it doesn't mean that, oh, she's just fine. God has taken all of that and he has helped to shape her ministry through it. And now her and her husband have the opportunity to minister to parents who are grieving. Her and her husband have the opportunity to teach people biblical truth when they feel like God has abandoned them. And she has the opportunity to walk with countless women, teaching them theological truths that can anchor them in the darkest times of their life. I have to be honest with you as well for me, I look at the journey out of the prosperity gospel and all the chaos and pain that we endured being saved out of it and the loss of family and relationships. And brother, I'm talking to David Wheaton right now, my friend, fellow brother in Christ, whether it's on a radio show or whether you and I were just talking at a conference somewhere as brothers.

It's not about talking publicly. It's just simple. I know you because God saved me out of heresy. I know my church friends.

I get to serve. I'm saved. My wife has dear sisters in Christ. We have the truth that we stand on because of all that pain. So even in the middle of all that, I can still thank God and say, would I do anything different? Well, yeah, I don't ever want to sin and I hate that I was trapped in heresy, but God has taken all of it.

And now I get the opportunity to relate to people and minister to people who are stuck in that are coming out of it, too. So that puts God in the driver's seat and me in the back seat. The Lord allows and does as he pleases.

And then I serve based on what he's put in front of us or me to do. It is, and it's for his glory and for our transformation. And Costi Hinn is our guest today on the Christian Real View as we talk about healing. And Costi, you have another four points early on in the book where you talk about God and healing. I'm going to list them.

I'm going to specifically ask you about one of them. The first one is God doesn't heal everyone all the time. That should be patently obvious.

When people get sick, they get cancer, they get whatever and they die. So that should be obvious. Although sometimes people don't get that. They think that, you know, I'm sick or my wife is sick or whatever and God should heal her.

But that's the first point. Second point is God doesn't heal solely based on one's faith. So in other words, if I have lots of faith and I really trust God will heal me or someone I love. That's the one I want to talk about, but I want to list the other two before you do. Number three, God doesn't perform healing for a price.

Of course, it's another patently obvious one. You go to these faith healers. People donate and spend all kinds of money to do this and they don't get healed. And then number four, God will heal all believers in heaven. Of course, that's truth right from Scripture. I think most true biblical Christians understand that and we look forward to that.

But go back to that point two there. God doesn't heal solely based on one's faith. And I think this can be a difficult one because you've already touched on this. That, you know, one is a faithful Christian.

You mentioned like Job. Then comes along this unrelenting trial where it's just, you know, one thing on top of another. I read a friend of ours has a cancer diagnosis recently and she listed on her Caring Bridge site just a couple of things. She had endured cancer many years ago and she went in for annual checkup and then the first test came back. We have to do another test and that test went the wrong way and then the type of cancer went the wrong way. And then the stage of cancer.

I mean, it was just one thing after the other with the way that you don't want it to go. And so talk about that second point there that God doesn't heal solely based on one's faith. That we've been faithful but the trial comes and it's just unrelenting and just gets worse. Yeah, this can relieve burdens for people who believe even as good Christians who are studying the Bible and, you know, have their study Bible on their nightstand every night. This thinking can creep in that I'm believing, God, I'm praying, I'm seeking you. I mean, there's people who will fast and pray and the whole church just praying. It's on the bulletin board or the Facebook page or whatever you put your prayer requests on at your church and, you know, thousands are praying.

And then people say, yeah, we're two or more gathered, you know, they'll throw everything out there. We're two or more gathered, Jesus is going to do it. He's here and they'll add things to things and they mean well, I get it. A lot of them are just trying and, you know, they'll quote Jeremiah 29 11 and I've got plans for you.

The Lord's got plans for you. He's going to prosper you and God wants to do this even in Bible circles where people just have forgotten or perhaps have not been taught. What is the picture of faith?

What is the full counsel of God on blessing and on healing? And in this case, I wanted this point to be in the book because there are instances in Jesus's ministry. In which he was moved with compassion by the faith of an individual. We see that in Luke chapter 8. The woman who has the bleeding issue crawls through the crowd just to touch the hem of his garment, his robe. And then Jesus feels power leave him and then is moved by her faith. It's very moving for him. He says, who touched me?

The disciples are sitting there. Master, are you kidding me? There's people everywhere. What do you mean who touched you? No, no, no, no power left me.

This was something different. He heals her. And then in the midst of that, though, I never want people to miss this. In Luke 8 48, he looks at her and he says, daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace. Now we look at that and sometimes people say, look, see, he just he was moved by faith and because of her faith, he healed her. No, no, no.

Don't leave it there. Daughter uses a familial term. Daughter, your faith has healed you.

OK, great. He heals her physically. She obviously knew who he was and was pursuing him and she had faith in him as the son of God. It wasn't faith as a force to get her healing.

It was faith in the son of God. He heals her and then says, go in peace. Well, why in the world would she go away from Jesus in peace if she wasn't at peace with God and not some superficial peace like, oh, I'm healed and now I'm fine. But no, being reconciled to God, which is exactly what John the Baptist was shouting about the whole time, telling Jews they need to be baptized now for real. It was peace with God. So he heals her physically and spiritually.

Then you jump over to John Chapter five, one of my favorite stories, the story that actually opened my eyes to a lot of this and got me on the journey. Jesus heals a cripple at the pool of Bethesda. That man, John records, doesn't even know who Jesus is. And when he uses the word no in the Greek, he uses this word, I do.

It's a word that means not even perceive. The man didn't even perceive who Jesus was. It wasn't like he was like, oh, this is this is this healer guy.

No, no, no. He didn't have a clue. So he he didn't know Jesus, let alone have enough faith in Jesus to get his healing. And Jesus just heals him in Luke five. Jesus, again, heals based on faith, it appears. He heals a man's soul through salvation. In Luke 5, 17 to 26, you remember the Pharisees were questioning Jesus's authority to forgive sins.

That's what he starts with, with that man. He says, your sins are forgiven. The Pharisees get so mad. And they're thinking, what?

Who is this guy? He thinks he has the power to forgive sins. Well, Jesus, knowing they're questioning his authority and and whether or not he has the power to forgive sins, does what? He heals the man physically to prove it. And so it wasn't even about the man's faith to, quote, get a healing. It was about his forgiving of the man's sins. And then because the Pharisees questioned it, Jesus says, oh, by the way, I'm God.

Watch this. Oh, heals them. Jesus was doing miracles and healing people to teach the people and the world at that time who he was.

He has the power to do this. It was not through healing crusades. It was not through, you know, tricks and YouTube videos and camera angles. It wasn't through any of the type of almost hypnotic or power of suggestion tactics that faith healers use today. Jesus went around sealing the deal for people from a salvific standpoint and also healing them instantaneously.

That's right. He could do it. He was the great physician. And so I want to encourage Christians to see, yes, press in in prayer.

Plead with the great physician to heal you. But then model Jesus's prayer in Luke 22, 42, when he says to even the father himself, if possible, let this cup pass from me time with a cup of wrath that he was about to drink on the cross. Then he says, but not my will, but yours be done. There's a lot of faith healers out there who say praying your will be done is a prayer of unbelief. I would challenge that biblically and exhort all of us to go back to the model of Christ in our prayers to ask boldly like a child.

No doubt. But then trust in faith. Your will be done, not mine. And then ask the question, Lord, what do you want to teach me through this? What can I see in your word that will shape me in a new way?

How can I become more like you, Jesus, through this situation? And I think if we follow what's in scripture, that prayer is going to be answered every time. The Christian Worldview with David Wheaton returns in just a moment. It's hard to put words into the comfort and the relief and the peace that you have as you've come to terms that Samaritan Ministries is real, it's viable and it's working and it's there.

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Short takes are also available and be sure to share with others. Now, back to today's program with host David Wheaton. Costi Hinn with us today on the Christian Worldview radio program. He's a pastor, he's an author of a book we're discussing today, More Than a Healer. He's also president of For the Gospel Ministry.

You can check that out at forthegospel.org with videos and articles and a podcast he does there. Let's talk about some current events, Costi, with the issue of COVID-19. A lot of fear in the world over this of people getting COVID, the vaccine, differences on that and so forth. And you're involved, of course, in a church as well.

And this is a health issue, of course. So how do you explain the amount of division, I would say even delusion and fear? I think we can understand why that's going on in the world, but also in the church over this issue of COVID-19. What does that tell you that we're seeing the level of, let's say, fear and just division, really, over this issue of COVID-19?

First, it exposed how poorly we've been taught in the church. And this is going to sound like I'm picking on everyone. I'm not. I'm with you. We've got the whole mirror up on all of us.

So let's just say that we're in this together. How poorly we've been taught. We watched as, let's start with the obvious, as faith healers were unable to cast the COVID-19 virus out of the world.

OK, that should tell you something. We watched as faith healers and many others were unable to heal people who got COVID and died. So there's a reality there.

And that's heartbreak. We had people in our church and friends and family of people in our church die from the virus. We had other people crippled by the reality of this. And that is not to demean that it didn't affect people.

You're not saying that and I'm not saying that. I think we watched as people went into a frightful fear mode. And then as I'm just going to speak freely here and not swing into either extreme, I just I think as we saw the data come out, as we saw that maybe it wasn't going to be the black plague where we're all in the gutters holding the dead and the dying. And believe me, I think a lot of us as pastors would have been out there and we needed to be and people, the Christians would have been everywhere. Christians historically have been those who start hospitals.

So it's very real. But at the same time, when we saw that it was not what we thought it might be, you had sort of this divide in the body of Christ. You had people that go back to meeting and some of them did that with masks and not some of this and that. There's a lot of just extremes there. Different people swing to different extremes.

I would just say this. We saw a lot of people cut themselves off from the body of Christ. And why do I say that means we were poorly taught is we went to two extremes. We had in Jesus name, the virus is going to be gone.

We rebuke you COVID-19 on one side and then on the other side, nobody's opening their door and you're wiping everything with Clorox and it's like this virus is going to kill us all. Both sides need to remember God and His church and the truth. And I think it did expose how fearful we are of death and of sickness. And here's what I wonder. And I say this with respect and it's just a question, an interrogative question that we can all wrestle with. I wonder how much we really believe what we hear in pulpits and what we teach in pulpits and how much we really want to be an eternity.

And I'm not saying in a morbid way, let's all die. But I wonder, do we really believe the stuff we're teaching? Are we really excited? Are we like Paul?

We long for his return. To be with Christ is the ultimate. To live is Christ.

Okay, great. We're going to live Christ today and then to die is gain. I went through that as a pastor. I've got a kid with cancer. When this thing first happened, yes, we took a more cautious, optimistic and cautious at the same time route because we were told like everyone, hey, if you've got pre-existing conditions, you've got cancer, this, that. So we were more cautious.

But there came a point as well where, you know, I never stopped ministering and serving and stop connecting with neighbors and going outside and seeing. We have life to live. And again, not in an overly morbid way, but I did come to a point. My wife, our home came to a point where we just said, you know what, if we die from this virus, we die.

Not going to be foolish. There was no vaccine conversation at the time except for chaos. There still is on that in that regard. But at the time, we just, you know, we're going to go live as Christians and we're not going to get cynical. We're not going to, you know, share every news article that comes out, you know, because you remember at that time, it was like one article was, hey, everyone's going to die in six months.

And then the other articles were this is a hoax. But then, you know, we just had like a neighbor get it. And one of the people in our church almost dying of it.

You're like, OK, so there's a real virus, but there's extremes. What does the Bible say? And so we tried to live a Romans 14 ethic as a church. I think our elder team did a great job. We got back to it just within a couple of months and honestly just told people, hey, let's let's not divide over this.

Let's be careful with extremes. But man, I just as a younger pastor, David, I look and think, wow, we were not ready for that from a theological standpoint and from a body life standpoint. And thankfully, live in Arizona, where it's kind of the wild, wild west out here.

We went right back to it pretty soon. But I feel for my brothers and sisters in California who, you know, I went over there a few times to do ministry under the radar and couldn't go to restaurants. It was like a ghost town everywhere. And you just see fear. You see a lot of fear. And I think that's evidence of a lack of trust in God. Notice I'm not saying concern.

I'm not saying care. I'm saying fear. The level of fear that we saw shows that we don't trust God as much as we thought we did. And we don't know our God like we claim to. And so I think hopefully we'll continue to see revival in churches. I don't know about where you are, but where I am, we have seen an explosion.

We don't get mad at us, everyone. But we're doing Saturday services and Sunday. We're at five services. I know some people get mad and say, that's too many services. And now that's just five churches. This isn't the time for the Mark, Deborah, Jonathan, Lehman, you know, multi-services, a multiple church.

That's not the time for that. We have so many people. We can't turn them away.

And we have a friend, a Bible church up the road, another one on the west side of Phoenix. They are building a new parking lot because it's revival. It's awesome to see.

Which, let me be fair, shows us the other side. There was this hunger, this volcano that was building. And we're seeing an explosion of people that are tired of playing games. They're tired of the fluff. They want truth. They want the gospel. They want to grow.

They want to get after it. And they're loving and caring. And we are so concerned, no doubt, about the sick and the hurting.

And COVID is real in that sense. But at the same time, we're not going to stop being the church. And this is coming from, our family got it twice, just so you know.

I feel like we can drink the pond water outside and be fine at this point. But we got it twice. And that taught us a lot. And I know it's such a hot button, but I hope people will stay biblical and stay balanced on all sides. I think it goes back to what Christians were believing is probably in large part due to what they've been taught. And I think it shows us something was lacking in the biblical teaching from pulpits. And I think that's why your book on sickness and health and healing is important, because it gives a biblical understanding of how God operates in healing.

Again, it's not transactional. It's meant to be transformational for God's glory. Just a couple more questions for you. Costi and Costi Hinn is our guest today here on The Christian Real View. The name of his title of his book is More Than a Healer. And I like the subtitle, not the Jesus you want, but the Jesus you need.

And I think that's a good way to describe that. He's also the president and founder of For the Gospel ministry that provides sound doctrine for everyday people through weekly videos and articles and a podcast. The website there is forthegospel.org. You can have it linked at our website, thechristianrealview.org. Two more questions for you.

One comes from chapter eight of your book. When someone else in our life that we love, maybe not a loved one, but maybe just someone, a friend, we're not going to be going down the road really intimately with that person as it would be if someone was a very close friend or a family member. You'll hear people say, we're praying for you, or we know the trial was difficult and bad and trying to find the words to say or the things to do. How should a believer pray for another believer with regards to healing, with regards to giving them words of encouragement, communicating to them as they're going through this trial?

How would you answer that? Yeah, I think it's a both and we both want to pray for the Lord to heal our brother, our sister, our friend, our child, whoever. Then at the same time, I dare say we ought to pray for the glory of God to be seen.

Here's the challenge. If we haven't been taught theologically that the glory of God is the chief end of our existence on earth, then a prayer like that's going to bother us. If we haven't come to grips with that, and so I'll give you an example. I've had multiple people pray for our son to be healed and churches and friends and pastors and different people all over the place. I'm never bothered with somebody saying, Lord, we pray and ask that you would heal Timothy, extend his days, but also be glorified no matter what. Should you choose to take him early or allow that he be taken early by cancer, we pray that your glory would still be known and that you would bring comfort and peace and strength no matter what. Those are prayers to pray.

I think we want to be careful in assuming. So when we're praying for someone, maybe use tact. Like if I were praying for David and he was struggling with an illness that we didn't really see as terminal, it was just a challenging thing.

I may not say, Lord, heal David. But if it is your will that he die, it may not be time for that kind of prayer. So I'm just going to pray for the Lord to heal you and give you strength to endure. But if I'm with you in hospice, David, and you're lying there and I'm praying for you in that moment and the prognosis is not good, my prayer is going to be different. I am going to ask the Lord to heal you. I am going to also acknowledge before the Lord, Father is clear.

The situation is dire and it's it's looking like this is closer and closer to the end than we would ever desire. But we ask that your will be done. And we do pray still because we are allowed and we implore you to heal David. And yet in all of this, if your will is that he come home now, give him comfort, give him strength. Help us to be a witness. Help him to bring you glory all the way until his final breath.

So it's situational. You look at what's happening and you use logic and biblical reasoning. And I think probably empathy, just generally speaking, we need to do a better job with that in the body of Christ. Empathy would mean I'm going to feel the moment, if you will. I'm going to feel your feelings and I'm going to empathize with you. And so I would encourage people to have some situational awareness. There's a book by Nancy Guthrie I read through called What Grieving People Wish You Knew. There's a lot of wisdom in a book like that.

What we don't want to do is, you know, hey, chin up, you know, bucko. It's going to be OK. And God's got this and all the rah rah. I think we do that on a human level. Like with wristbands and stuff, and I'm not against using that and having a wristband that says God's got this.

No problem. That may be a good reminder for you to know that God is sovereign. I understand. But we had at one point, you know, got given a shirt and it was about how, you know, such and such kicks cancer this way and that like that type of stuff doesn't help. I don't need a license plate frame that says what cancer what we're going to do to cancer on Timothy's behalf.

Like, no, thanks. My God will determine that. But I'm going to pray humbly and yet confidently. So I hope that helps people.

You don't need to make t-shirts about where you're going to hit cancer. Just pray and have some tact and trust the Lord. Costi Hinn with us today on the Christian worldview, talking about his brand new book, More Than a Healer.

Costi, you say in Chapter three, that chapter is titled He is Savior. Healing for your body is not as important as healing for your soul. We've talked a lot about healing today.

How do I have a biblical godly perspective on it? Why is the healing of your soul far more important than the healing of your body? Well, you can have healing for your body and you could live to be 200 years old or, you know, science can freeze your body.

We've got a company over here in the Scottsdale area that will freeze your body. And in order to keep it where it is until medical science comes up with a way to bring you back. I kid you not.

It's a real, real thing. You could you could have that. Let's say science comes up and it's not going to happen because it's appointed to a man wants to die. The Bible says, I believe that it's going to stay true until Christ returns.

And so let's say you come on back 200 years later, you still got the same problem. You're depraved. You need a savior. And when you die again, hell is where you're heading.

And so we've got to get really honest here. Do I need more lipstick on a corpse, so to speak? If I'm dead in sin and I'm dressing myself up with healing and material and all this stuff. That's the American dream of the good life.

I'm still dead inside. Ephesians 2 says I'm dead in my trespasses and sins before I'm saved. So what I want is yes and amen for people to get healed and experience God's work in their life. I don't want everyone suffering.

It's not what we're trying to say everyone should experience. But if you get to the highest mountain peak of life and you've got it all, if you don't have Christ, you have nothing. If you aren't saved internally in your heart, truly blood bought faith in Christ saved, you can get healed of 50 things. You could see tumors fall off your body and you could watch as the Lord grows you a new limb. If he does not transform your heart spiritually, none of it matters. And it's the idea that Jesus put before the rich, his disciples, many others. A man can gain the whole world but lose his soul.

What has he profited? Nothing. We need salvation more than anything. So that would be my encouragement to people. Make sure you are right with the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thank you for concluding our conversation today that way, Costi. Just knowing that we all have a great desire to be healthy and to be healed when we're sick or injured or whatever is going on in our life or other types of trials that come, financial, relational, you name it. We want quote-unquote healing from those things but there's nothing more important than our souls being healed of the sin sickness we have that alienates us from God.

And the only way to be restored, to be healed, to be reconciled to God is through the person of Jesus Christ and his work for us on our behalf on the cross. So Costi, thank you for coming on the Christian Real View today. Thank you for writing this book, More Than a Healer. We're grateful for you and your ministry and we just wish all of God's best and grace to you. Thank you so much, David. I appreciate it and keep up the great work.

You're a blessing. Well, I hope you gained from that interview with Costi Hinn. You know, there are a lot of current events going on in the world as we all know right now but having an understanding of who God is and his purpose in the trials we face in this fallen world makes understanding that and trusting in him far more important than even focusing on the major events that are going on because if you're in the middle of a trial, those current events don't seem nearly as important when you're facing some personal trial in your own family, maybe a health trial or otherwise. Here's a quote in his book by Charles Spurgeon that I thought was really good. It says this, I have learned to kiss the wave that throws me against the rock of ages.

In other words, to embrace the trials as something that God has allowed in our lives to draw us closer to him that will ultimately bring him glory and be good for us. Again, the book is More Than a Healer by Costi Hinn. We have it linked at our website thechristianrealview.org. I wanted to comment on his comment about getting COVID twice in their family but I'll have to wait for a future week to do that as we're running out of time. Thank you for listening today and supporting the Radio Ministry of the Christian Real View. Be sure to sign up for our weekly email. That's the best way to stay connected. Just go to our website to do that.

You can also look into our current resource. So let's remember until next time, Jesus Christ and his word are the same yesterday, and today, and forever. So think biblically, live accordingly, and stand firm.

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