An Aged Perspective on the Country and the Church

An aged perspective on the country and the church. My parents join us today here on the Christian Worldview radio program this Father's Day weekend where the mission is to sharpen the biblical worldview of Christians and to share the good news of Jesus Christ.

I'm David Wheaton, the host, and our website is thechristianworldview.org. Our country has long commemorated one Sunday in May and one in June to honor mothers and fathers. Sadly and tragically, in our day and age of social and familial transformation, mothers are now called, quote, birthing people. That's the actual term the Biden administration used in this 2022 budget.

And fathers are demeaned as weak and basically unnecessary, to which the Bible says in Romans 3 verse 4, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar. Now, there are a lot of news events going on right now with geopolitical, cultural, and moral implications. Here's a few of those stories just from this past week. President Biden is over at the G7 summit of countries over in England right now.

He met with Russian President Vladimir Putin this week, just appearing to be past his prime and his fitness for this kind of high-level leadership meetings. In Taiwan, the BBC reports that a record number of Chinese military jets flew into its air defense zone on Monday. The Defense Ministry said 25 aircraft, including fighters and nuclear-capable bombers, entered its so-called air defense identification zone. Beijing, the article says, views Taiwan as a breakaway province. However, democratic Taiwan sees itself as a sovereign state. This is an issue that's going to become, I have a feeling, much more of a thorny issue in the coming days, especially if there's American weakness. Reuters report moving over to Israel and Jerusalem that Benjamin Netanyahu's record 12-year run as Israel's prime minister ended on Sunday with parliament approving a new government of change led by Naftali Bennett, an improbable scenario few Israelis once could have imagined.

The new government largely plans to avoid sweeping moves on hot-button international issues, such as policy toward the Palestinians, and to focus instead on domestic reforms. This is a major story. We have no idea how this will turn out yet, but the fact that Netanyahu is out of power is a very significant change for the most significant nation for biblical prophecy in all of the world. Speaking of that part of the world, our congressperson here in Minnesota, Ilhan Omar, very leftist, tweeted a video of her asking questions of Secretary of State Antony Blinken about international criminal court investigations. Omar tweeted, we must have the same level of accountability and justice for all victims of crimes against humanity, Omar wrote. We have seen unthinkable atrocities committed by, now notice the moral equivalency here, by the United States, Hamas, Israel, Afghanistan, and the Taliban. Rightly, there has been outrage over this equivalency that Omar is drawing, to which Nancy Pelosi, the Speaker of the House, said, people can say whatever they want, but what I'm saying is Omar clarified, we thanked her, end of subject.

Just look the other way when you have a congressperson in the United States equating the US with terrorist entities. We've talked recently about the effect of critical race theory on our society, and many different stories came out this week. Here's one from Red State that reveals a study of over 40% of teachers in this country want civics education to focus on critical race theory. This from the Daily Wire, the result of this huge racial division, this narrative, this false narrative being told, repeated all the time in our country, a 39-year-old man accused of shooting and wounding five people in Alabama and Georgia told police his assaults were racially motivated and he was targeting white men, a detective testified. Basically, he explained throughout his life, specifically white males had taken from him, a detective testified on Monday. Did you even hear about that story? Can you imagine if the scenario was flipped or he had a white man intentionally targeting five black people, what the outrage would have been?

But I bet a lot of you hadn't even heard that story. The lie of critical race theory not only leads to attempted murder, but it's coming into NASA as well. According to the Federalist, NASA unveiled an initiative called, quote, Mission Equity on Monday that seeks to, quote, streamline its programs, procurements, grants, regulations, and policies to remove systemic inequitable barriers and challenges facing underserved communities, unquote, all the code language there in that quote. Here's the video that NASA recently put out about this new equity mission. At NASA, we're on a mission of equity, launching opportunity, equal opportunity to challenge and inspire, to learn and thrive, to reach those we've never reached before, to use science, data and technology to advance equity, to shatter boundaries and break down barriers across America, to create a better future.

We hope you'll join us on this mission. There you have it, even NASA going woke. And finally, in another major story, from a Christian standpoint, the Southern Baptist picked a president this week, according to the AP, who worked for racial unity. Albert Mohler did not become the president of the Southern Baptist Convention. As a matter of fact, he came in third in the voting. According to the AP, the Southern Baptist Convention tamped down a push from the right for more conservatives at its largest meeting in decades, electing a new president who has worked to bridge racial divides in the church and defeating an effort to make an issue of critical race theory.

They're even mentioning it in the articles. Ed Litton, a pastor from Alabama, won 52% of the vote in a runoff against Mike Stone, a Georgia pastor backed by a new group called the Conservative Baptist Network. In the end, the message that seemed to resonate with voters was that Stone, the conservative, who supported a motion to repudiate critical race theory, was a device of choice.

Again, this will take some time to see what this new president is like, but from the sound of this article, it's not looking good. The Southern Baptist Convention will likely continue to move in a more liberal direction on this issue of critical race theory and other issues as well. Now, even with all those important news events taking place right now, we would like to focus on something that is even more important, at least for you and your family, and that is fathers and mothers. My parents, Bruce and Mary Jane Wheaton, are joining us today for their annual interview around this time of year that we've been holding for many years. Because when you are 89 and 87 years old, and you've been married for 67 years and followers of Christ for 64 years, and have raised four children and are the grandparents of seven grandchildren, it's wise to listen and learn from their perspective, an aged perspective. Proverbs 23 says, listen to your father who begot you and do not despise your mother when she is old. Buy truth and do not sell it.

Get wisdom and instruction and understanding. I think you're going to hear that today in our annual interview with my parents. Dad and mom, it's great to have you on the program for another year. I'm not even sure how many years it's been now that you have come on the program during this time of year, but I'm just grateful for another year to have both of you on. Let's start out with you, Dad. Both of you had COVID earlier this year.

I think it was back in February and March of this year. Talk about your first-hand experience now with COVID, and then your advice for other people your age, because you're in that dangerous demographic, older demographic for people who get COVID. That's the one age group that is very much high risk aside from those with underlying conditions. So talk about your advice for others as well regarding the treatment, the early treatment protocol, and then we'll get into the vaccine as well.

But how about first with your experience with it? I contracted COVID in early March. It came on with a fever and other problems, and I said I'm sick. Next day, I saw the doctor. He tested me, and I had COVID. I couldn't believe it.

We did struggle through it for about two weeks almost. I was told by my doctor that the thing to do if my oxygen level dropped off too low, that I should go to the hospital, which I didn't want to do. But my son, Mark, who is an MD, has been in contact with Dr. McCulloch. He advised that the hospitals use Remvesadir, which is not much effective against the virus, and that they do not use other off-label medicines to cure the problem. And so he arranged with Dr. McCulloch to give me some ivermectin, which is a parasite drug, azithromycin, imprednisone, and the colchicine, and high doses of vitamin C and D and zinc.

And so I went right at it with my son's advice. And Mary Jane, of course, also caught the virus a couple days later, and she was on the same program. Why do you think with this early treatment protocol put out by the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons that Dr. Peter McCulloch was part of the main editing of that guide, which we have on our website, thechristianworldview.org, why do you think there has been so much emphasis on this so-called vaccine, which is actually not a true vaccine, it's actually a gene therapy manipulation? Why do you think there's been so much emphasis on that, getting everyone, quote, vaccinated from the NIH, the CDC, government, media, everywhere else, and not this early treatment protocol that you just mentioned that has worked so well for you and mom, but also many other people have taken that early treatment protocol you talked about? Why do you think there's been so much emphasis on the vaccine, so-called vaccine, and not on that early treatment protocol? President Trump was pushing hard on the vaccine.

I have a feeling it was just thrown together without time for an exhaustive study. It really is not needed if you've had COVID, first of all, and it has potential bad side effects quite often with heart problems. It would be much better to take the early treatment with the medicine, as I mentioned, than getting the vaccine because there's risk with the vaccine.

They just don't know. And every week they come up with a new problem with the vaccine. Recently, I heard that it can, especially in young girls, that they're trying to give it to kids, and I don't know why that, especially with females, you can get into their reproductive system and create a problem down the road for them. They may not be able to have children. So, there's something that's really bad about the vaccine.

I just don't recommend it at all. You're listening to my parents today here on the Christian Real View. Bruce and Mary Jane Wheaton, they are 89 and 87 years old, married for 67 years, believers in Christ for 64 of those years, four children and seven grandchildren.

This is our annual Father's and Mother's Day special interview with them with an aged perspective on the country and the church. Dad, one more follow-up question for you on this issue of COVID. I've heard this, and I know many of our listeners will have maybe even experienced this, that there's been a division going on in families over this COVID so-called vaccine. In other words, if someone or in the family decides not to get vaccinated, doesn't want to take that risk, or maybe has already had COVID, and they're immune to it for a very long, long time, or just for whatever reason, they don't want to get the vaccine. Well, then the other members of the family who have really swallowed the, I think you can only describe as the propaganda of the vaccine, because it doesn't keep you from getting COVID.

It's supposed to reduce the severity of the symptoms. The other members of the family will say, well, if you're not going to get vaccinated, you can't come and see us. You can't come and see your grandchildren. Even husband and wife can be at odds with each other over this.

One wants to get it, one doesn't. So what is your advice for those listening today who have division in their family over whether to get this COVID vaccine, or even the politics around COVID-19, where you watch one channel like CNN or MSNBC, and this is the biggest pandemic ever, and this is the greatest threat. We need to shut down society, and everyone stay in their home locked down. Don't send kids to school.

Whereas the other channel you might see on TV, more conservative, is saying that let's protect the people who are the highest risk. Let's do early treatment. Let's not shut down our entire society over this. So what is your advice for a division in families that may be taking place over COVID, the treatment and the politics around it? Well, unfortunately, I can't solve the problem of your home divided. The husband and wife should be on the same page and everything to raising children as to finances and schooling and a lot of other things. So if they come apart on an issue like COVID and the vaccine, I guess it's an individual thing. The husband may want to take the vaccine and the wife may not. And that's a dilemma within the family. I mean, I can't solve that problem. And the use of the vaccine, long term testing, you're really just another guinea pig.

So we shouldn't be anyone should not be bullied into the vaccine. The Christian worldview with David Wheaton returns in just a moment. David Wheaton here, volunteer host of the Christian worldview radio program. Listeners are often surprised to learn that we as a ministry pay for airtime on the radio station, website or app on which you hear the program. The primary way this expense is recouped is through listeners like you donating to the ministry or becoming a monthly partner.

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Lived eight years as Lord Jensen until I found the Lord Jesus Christ. The issues are unavoidable. They're on the news. The White House in rainbow colors. They're in our legislation. The Texas bathroom bill. In our schools.

Drag queen story out. They're even reaching into our churches. Let us be the church together.

We're not just talking about issues, we're talking about people. The proceeding is from In His Image, a 103-minute documentary film that biblically and compassionately addresses the issue of transgenderism. You can order the DVD for a donation of any amount to the Christian worldview. Call 1-888-646-2233 or write to Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota 55331 or visit thechristianworldview.org. That's 1-888-646-2233 or thechristianworldview.org. Welcome back to the Christian worldview. Be sure to visit our website, thechristianworldview.org, where you can subscribe to our free weekly email and annual print newsletter, order resources for adults and children and support the ministry.

Now back to today's program with host David Wheaton. Let's move over mom to what's going on in our culture. You've seen a lot in your 87 years. You were born in 1933, so there've been a lot of decades that have gone by and a lot of changes that have gone on in our society.

This June right now has become Pride Month. Interesting word for celebrating homosexuality, transgenderism and so forth. You have witnessed, both of you have witnessed a moral degeneration in this country, not just with regard to homosexuality, but I think you might say what started with divorce, where when you were growing up, you didn't even know anyone who was divorced. So gone from divorce to living together before marriage, to no stigma of having children out of wedlock, to the abortion culture, which came in in Roe v. Wade in the 70s and has just expanded from there, to homosexuality, that whole movement, and now the transgender movement where you're told that you can just change the gender that God gave you. This has become the norm now in this country. You are told you need to affirm someone in whatever moral lifestyle they want to live.

You will need to affirm someone in the pronouns they pick for themselves. How do you explain the kind of moral downgrade or digression that has taken place in this country and to a lesser extent, but a significant extent because a lot of these things are in the church as well, but first talk about the downgrade in the country and how it's impacted the church. It's very hard because we remember what life was like before the 60s. In the 50s, we had two of our children. We were living a very nice life, just watching little TV shows and having a good time, a normal life. And then all of a sudden the 60s came and it was Woodstock. And I was watching it all on TV. I saw the rock music, the drugs, the sex, and I was frankly shocked.

Not that I was so shocked at what people do, but it was sad to see them because they all were thinking they were having a good time and I could just see they were ruining their lives before their life had even started. And then divorce did become common with no father, mothers raising children, daycare came in, women were not home. There has to be a father in a home. I don't really think a mother can, some mothers do it, but it isn't the way it is when you have a mother and a father married together, loving one another, loving their children. And then the homosexual, transgender all came along with fornication, people living together.

It's completely accepted now. People don't know it's wrong, but the Bible calls it sin. And the Bible says, when you do that, you're going to hell.

It's just in black and white. And I'm really surprised at all of the younger people who tell me that everyone they know is living together. And it's hard for me to understand how they can do that, but it's just that they don't know what the Bible says.

When the Bible is rejected, everyone does what is right in his own eyes. And I think I've heard you tell me a couple of times that you've talked to some younger people because you do interact with them and you will say something to them like, well, did you know that it's sinful to live with someone or be involved with someone sexually outside of marriage? And they'll vary, just say, I did not know that. As if their parents who may have even been involved in evangelical churches have not told them that.

It's like, this is new news to them. How do you explain that? That hasn't been communicated even in a Christian culture. I've had several tell me, well, I'm glad you told me. I wouldn't have known it.

And I won't do that now that I know, but they don't know. It's just the practical result of the death of absolutes. Like Francis Schaeffer used to say, if you don't know what the Bible says, then you do what is right in your own eyes. My parents with us today here on the Christian worldview radio program, Bruce and Mary Jane Wheaton for the annual interview around the time of Father's Day and Mother's Day. And the topic this year is an aged perspective on the country and the church. Let's talk about the evangelical church, mom. You've been in mostly evangelical churches since you were saved back in the 1950s. This is a very broad question, but talk about the two or three biggest changes you've seen in the church from the first churches you went to after you were saved in the 50s to what you see in the evangelical church now. Just after we were born again, we went to just a small church, but there were no mega churches then.

They were just smaller churches. We sang hymns out of a hymn book. We read the Bible in the same version. It happened to be the King James version.

Not that that's the only version, but that was the only version available at the time. And the pastor would go through one book at a time, verse by verse, expository teaching, which really taught you the Bible. And I guess I would say it was sound doctrine, sound teaching, healthy teaching.

We'd learned the Bible and we knew we wanted to live by the Bible. Now it's mega churches, the rock music, felt needs. The pastor has to try to help all these people in the church who are having multitudes of problems. It's so completely different.

It's just hard to describe. What do you think has been the problem with that? In other words, you talked about a much more basic, simple service, singing hymns, singing hymns, not so entertainment based, not loud, not driven to emotionally or experientially stimulate the church congregation, or really put on what can only be described as this really highly professionalized performance each Sunday. What has been the problem with going from more of the simple, basic singing hymns, reading the Bible, preaching out of the Bible, people dressing up for church, to the change of what the church is today where it's none of those things really for mainstream evangelical churches.

The methodology is come and you're going to encounter basically a Christian rock concert followed by a message. What's the problem with these changes? Isn't it a new culture, a new society, a new generation that needs to have the same thing delivered a different way? What's wrong with that?

Everything. It's not holy. It's the world.

They brought the world into the church. Everything is no different than the world. And the Bible says, if any man loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. You can't compromise.

Compromise is the language of the devil. All the emphasis is on the younger people. And I'm all for that too. But I think the older people, they should at least have something to say. The Bible says, the older men should be teaching the younger men.

The older women should be teaching the younger women. My parents with us today here on the Christian Real View. So having heard what mom said about the big changes she has seen in the evangelical church, if you could speak directly to a pastor listening today, elders of a church listening today, because there's a lot of pressure on them to see quote unquote best practices. What's going on at Saddleback Church, Rick Warren's church or Willow Creek and Bill Hybels, Andy Stanley's church, or Stephen Furtick's church, or Life Dot Church and Craig Groeschel, these huge big churches that are purportedly reaching tens of thousands of people on a given weekend. What would be your advice to pastors or elders listening today, dad, to encourage them to go with the fundamentals and not give in to focusing on such this contemporary methodology that I think is actually a distraction away from someone focusing truly on going to church to worship God, to fellowship with other believers, to hear the teaching of the word, and to partake in the ordinances of communion and baptism? A lot of these churches started out small, and they've expanded. They have financial responsibilities that exceed how much money comes in through the offering. So they're driven to make a show out of the church.

And unfortunately, that replaces the fact that they're not going verse by verse with the Bible. They're there for the created atmosphere. So people will want to come. It's really too bad that that has to be that way. But that's the way it is. They built these large buildings, and they attract thousands of people. And they have to keep on attracting thousands of people.

And they do that by having concerts and all sorts of various activities that are not necessarily Bible doctrine being taught. Okay, let's switch over to another big societal change that has taken place in our country. And that has to do with—I'll use the word race, even though I don't believe there are multiple races—but what's commonly called race relations.

God created one race, the human race. There are many ethnicities, skin colors, of course. You all grew up in the 30s, 40s, and 50s. This was post-slavery. But it was during the Jim Crow era, where there was racial segregation, at least in the states of the South. This era from Jim Crow was basically from the 1870s until it was ended by civil rights legislation in 1965. That Jim Crow laws are probably not where you grew up here in Minnesota. I asked this question, knowing both of you are white, and you grew up in a white area, so people who are black, different skin color will have a different experience in life for sure. But I would just like to know your perception, at least, of race relations in this country between whites and blacks in the era that you were growing up in the 30s, 40s, and 50s.

Was there this hostility that you feel today? Was there this great division, this completely different worldview, whereas many in the black community and many white liberals feel like our country is just structurally unjust? It's systemically racist. It's been that way since the founding.

It needs to be overturned. If you're white, you're part of the problem. Was there that worldview back then? Or what was your perception, your perception of race relations at the time? Well, growing up in the North in Minnesota, I didn't see that.

In fact, at my office, I hired as my associate, my direct associate in engineering, a man from India. And he was very black. And yet, I never looked at it that way, at any point, at no point. That's partially because I'm from the North.

But my experience is a little different. Prior to that, when I was in the military, and I had to go down to Camp Gordon in Georgia, which is a military camp, I had to take some clothing into town to have washed and cleaned. And I was walking down the street of that town. And I noticed in the window, it said, white only at this laundromat. I thought, Oh, I have all this khaki clothing, none of its white, so I'll have to move on to another place.

I had no idea what the sign meant. I was that ignorant. It seems to me that the problem that we have today with black versus white, has been sort of is being blown out of proportion. There's no doubt injustice in the in the country. But it's been totally overblown at this point, to the point that it's being white is bad. You are born with a skin color. There's critical race theory that comes from a demented mind. It was no proof of it.

It's just been created. It's a political thing and nothing more. So mom, dad was talking about, just mentioned their critical race theory, the idea that the country is hopelessly racist, built on racism, it's still oppressive toward non-white people. If you're white, you're part of the problem. You're a racist, you have privilege, all these kinds of things.

It's an incredibly divisive, resent-filled, hateful worldview. I don't think this was around when you were growing up. I know we played a soundbite recently from James Cone back in the 70s, the father of black liberation theology. He was pushing this stuff back in the 70s, probably the 80s.

He's still influential today, even though he's dead. But why do you think this particular racial, if I can use the word racial, division or ethnic division has become so accepted and pushed now, so long after slavery? I mean, slavery was what, 150 years ago it ended. The Jim Crow laws in the South were over back in the 19, early 60s. Why do you think this critical race theory has become so popular and pervasive now?

Because there's a constant drumbeat about it all the time. You can't ignore it because they're constantly pushing it on you on the news and when you watch anything, see anything Black Lives Matter. Well, all lives matter, not just black lives.

We never had a problem with black people. I know many black people who are wonderful people. They have a real love for Jesus Christ. It all comes down to Christ. Jesus Christ is the answer for everything.

The Bible has everything you need to know to live your life the right way. And it's just really, when it comes down to it, it's Satan who's behind it all to get people to hate each other because of their skin color. That's the most ridiculous thing you could even think of because we don't look at people based on their skin color. We look at people for their soul. And I love to tell people about Jesus Christ, and it doesn't matter what color they are, really. It's the heart.

Thank you for that important reminder, Mom, that we're to love one another, not based on their skin color, not based on their ethnicity. God created us all differently. We're to love one another, love God and love others. It's the gospel that we unite around Jesus Christ.

And thank you for saying that. The Christian Worldview with David Wheaton returns in just a moment. Courtney was 17 weeks pregnant when she and her husband, Greg, learned that their son, Shepherd, had a heart condition that would require multiple surgeries and were uncertain about his future. But Samaritan Ministries connected them with other Samaritan members who began to pray and share the financial needs of the pregnancy and the medical care Shepherd needed. I don't know how Samaritan could have answered any differently and done any better.

I don't know. And just to hear the confidence on the other end of the phone of this is not something that you need to be concerned about at all. You focus on the health of your family, the health of your baby, and we will walk with you every step of the way. Thankfully, thankfully, through God's faithfulness and provision, Shepherd is surpassing all of the doctor's expectations. To read more about this family's journey and about how you can join a community of believers like them, visit SamaritanMinistries.org slash TCW. David Wheaton here to tell you about a special offer on my boy, Ben.

Ben was a yellow lab and inseparable companion back when I was competing on the pro tennis tour. I invite you to enter the story in its tapestry of relationships with Ben and my aging parents, with a childhood friend I would eventually marry, and ultimately with God whose gospel and grace caused all things, even the hard things to work together for good. Order a signed and personalized copy for yourself or for a friend who loves dogs or someone you know who needs to hear about God's grace and the gospel. My Boy Ben is owned by The Christian Worldview.

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Short takes are also available and be sure to share with others. Now back to today's program with host David Wheaton. My parents with us today here on The Christian Worldview on this Father's and Mother's Day special program. You have seen the country, and I've heard you say this, become divided not only over the issue of critical race theory but other issues as well too. Left versus right is a huge division in this country now. How do you maintain balance or perspective or grounding in the midst of just, seems like the world's going crazy.

How do you maintain a balance in the midst of that? When I think about it, my life, I've lived 87 years. I've been a Christian for 66 years. And when I think that if I had not believed in Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord, my whole life would have been so different. I wouldn't have had anything. I wouldn't know how to think. But once I was born again, I had a real appetite for the word of God.

I still have it. I'm listening every day to my one teacher who has helped me through maybe 50 years of Bible teaching because he teaches healthy teaching. Sound doctrine just means teaching. It's given me a way of life that, as my mother used to say, the right way to live. And you can get yourself into all kinds of problems if you don't have the Bible to tell you this is right, this is wrong. It's a narrow road, the Bible Christ said, it's a narrow road and a difficult road and very few that find it.

And the broad road has many on it. And that road is the road that leads to hell and all the problems people have. So I'm just thankful for the years I've had of the Bible, just reading it, learning it, listening to it. And when I think of it, I know so little. You could spend your whole life hearing it, reading it, and you wouldn't touch it.

There's so much there. Every day you read it. The Bible is alive, sharper than any two-edged sword dividing us under the soul and the spirit as a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Dad, you've seen the country like mom become very divided and very chaotic. There's a world view, a huge world view divided in this country, not only between left and right, but between the remnant of Bible believing born-again Christians and broader culture. So how do you maintain balance or a foundation in a time and place now where what you believe and how you think is in the very, very small minority with everything going on around you?

Don't let yourself get sucked into everything that's on television. There's so much bad going on, even such things as the economic situation that we're in right now. The government has become the sugar daddy of the people.

It amazes me that with a national debt of $28 trillion, Congress happily spends more trillions. Where's the end point? Right now it's spin, spin, spin, and people just eat it up and send checks out to everybody.

Where is this? They're going to kick the can down the road. Someone's going to have to pay for this. The country is so divided and chaotic. And I think that the focus on these times for individuals listening to my voice. So put your time in reading the Bible and of course, telling others about the word of God, because everything else is just plain foolishness. And television is the worst media for affecting people.

Lies from every angle. It's just, it softens your brain. The world is going up with smoke someday and the gospel will save us for eternity. There's a total de-emphasizing in the Bible teaching today and the churches are, I'm sorry to hear, but they're actually going downhill.

The people are being brought into the government just as they were back in Germany years ago. Mom, you wanted to add something to that about an issue that we hadn't brought up today. What was that? Feminism. I remember when feminism came in and that was another thing that I saw was not biblical because the Bible is very clear that in marriage, the husband is the head of the wife. The wife submits to the husband. And it's so simple when you just follow what the Bible says in Ephesians five and six about the husband, the wife, the children.

But now it's just all completely wrong. And I see so many women just they're so confused because a woman cannot be like a man. God made the woman a certain way and made the man a certain way, but we aren't made the same.

So it's feminism too that I think is a great problem in the country today. And in the church as well. Now that we see this coming into the evangelical church with women being ordained as pastors, I always have to qualify by saying God sees men and women as of complete equal value. You design them with different roles. And one role isn't worse than the other.

The roles are both equally important. My parents join us today here on the Christian worldview. Mom, you mentioned coming to saving faith in Jesus Christ back in the 1950s. Your mother was the first one, my grandmother, listening to Christian radio. I heard a pastor preaching on the radio talking about who Christ is and what he did on the cross. And she grew up Catholic and came to saving faith. And then you didn't understand it. But then a couple of years later, you started listening to Christian radio.

So just tell us briefly about how you came, how God brought you to saving faith and how you understood the gospel. We had gone to New York for two years. Dad was in the army ROTC. And I didn't like living in New York. It was a whole different world than the world I'd lived in, where we live now.

It really was hard for me. I came home that summer and my mother had written me a note that she had been born again. And I thought, oh, this is just going to blow over.

It's just an emotional experience. But it didn't blow over. I could see my mother. Mother was transformed. Her life had been transformed by Christ.

It took me two years. But by the end of that time, I knew that what she had was something I wanted. You know, the believers should attract people to Christ, as my mother did me. And so I started listening to Christian radio because she'd keep saying, Mary Jane, would you just listen to the radio? And I finally started listening.

And three days after listening for three days, I got it. I realized that I was a sinner. I never knew I was a sinner. I'd grown up in the Episcopal Church. And God is everyone's father and everyone's going to heaven and no one has any sin.

And that's all I'd heard. But when I realized that I was a sinner, and that I was actually going to hell, and it wasn't just that I was afraid of going to hell. It was just that I knew I had no answers to life. And so as I listened to the radio, I was getting good teaching from Northwestern College at the time. There were good men there teaching the Bible verse by verse. And in three days, I got it.

And I just knew that this, I found the truth. And Dad would come home and he'd say, what's going on with you? You aren't the same. No, I wasn't. I was not the same. I just, all I wanted was to hear the Word of God and learn how to apply it and obey it in my life. And then Dad, you were saved shortly thereafter. Yes, I saw a mom saved and I wondered what was going on in her life.

She seemed to have a different aura about her and something that I felt I didn't have. And so with her involvement in, of course, in marriage and the fact that we were taking on new friends that were listening to the Word of God, I became exposed to it. And one day I went forward at a meeting. It was a gospel meeting and a gospel preacher from Iowa that was preaching.

I just knew at that very moment that I did not have what they were talking about. I had to go forward and not that going forward saved me, but it was a change in my heart that caused me to become a Christian. And of course, it just changed the pathway in my life, but more importantly, the pathway of our whole family with four children. Well, thank you for sharing that.

It's always great to hear your faith story, how you came to saving faith. It's been an eventful year so far, and we're only in June. Mom, you had a terrible hip break after a fall surgery. You're recovering, I think, fairly well from that now. As I mentioned earlier in the program, both of you had COVID. You're 89 and 87 years old. You have constant health problems coming up, going to doctors, and I think anyone who's in their 80s knows what I'm talking about. What is your perspective on knowing that you're likely living in the last years of your life? People don't typically live this long. Sometimes they're into the 90s, but you've both lived a very long life, and that you might be going to be in the presence of your Savior, Jesus Christ, maybe not even years from now, maybe months from now, maybe days from now.

You could take a fall, you could get sick. Anything can happen at this age. I know me and my siblings know this and think that way. We see you and you just never know. We're thankful for how many years we've been able to have the privilege and opportunity to be with you, but we just never know at your age. Obviously, it could be one of us as well. We could get in a car accident. Our days are not guaranteed.

Tomorrow is not guaranteed. But when you're your age, you must have the sense that we're at the end of our lives, and I've heard you talk about it. What's it like being at the end of your life, knowing that you're fairly close, don't know exactly when, of course, to meeting your Savior, Jesus Christ in person?

How do you think at this time? Well, it's actually a good feeling. It's a feeling of stability to know that we will someday leave this life for what the Bible caused. It's a divine transition.

We don't know the details, we don't know the details, but we're certainly open and welcoming to it. I don't know how many days I have left or months or years, but each day we live, we live with the light of eternity. I give no thought to when I'm going to die. I'm going to be 90 soon. And the Lord has blessed me this many years. If He wants me to stay on, I'll stay on.

If He doesn't, then I'll fly, fly away. Mom, what are your thoughts on likely being near the end of your life and going to heaven? I can't tell you how much it means to know Christ as your Savior and Lord. For this life now, and knowing where you're going when you die, I'm so thankful for the life that I've had these years in Christ. And the greatest joy of my life is to tell someone else about Christ so they can know Him too.

Everywhere I've been, I've told them and some have believed, and to hear them after many years, it gives me joy to see my children, to see my children, my physical children and my spiritual children walking in the truth. I take it in and I want to give it out. I just don't understand people who take it in, but they don't give it out.

I mean, what is the point if you're taking it in? Is it all for me, me, me? You can tell other people so they can know Christ too, but it will be worth it all when we see Jesus. It will be worth it all when we see Christ. One look at His dear face, all sorrow will erase.

It will be worth it all when we see Christ. What a beautiful way to end our interview today. Thank you both for coming on the program once again and offering your perspective, an aged perspective on the country and the church. And I know I speak on behalf of my siblings and your grandchildren. We all love you and your spiritual children. We love you so much and we're just so grateful that God has been gracious to us. And not only keeping you here this long, but also keeping you here with the kind of relationship we have with you. And as I'm getting older, I appreciate it more all the time. And I'm just thankful that now even my own son will be able to remember and has an opportunity to interact with you and be influenced by both of you.

So happy Mother's Day and happy Father's Day. And thank you again for coming on the Christian Worldview radio program. Thank you, David, for having us. We listen to you every week and learn a lot from the things that you learn and then pass on to other people.

We do really appreciate the Christian Worldview and we appreciate you, David, for giving your heart and soul to help others find Christ. Well, I hope you enjoyed that interview with my parents. And I just consider myself most blessed to have been placed as a child in their family. Just a few takeaways that I thought of in listening to them. Number one, they have a valuable perspective. They have lived a long life.

They have been longtime believers. They have experienced several eras. Whereas younger people, maybe I can include myself in that, were limited by the time in which we have lived. They speak differently, you probably have noticed. They're not as nuanced, less qualifications than you hear people give today.

There's an expectation of that generation that people will understand what you're saying without so many qualifications that people aren't so easily offended. If you noticed in their perspective that they're quite, I would say, pessimistic about the country and the culture and even the church if it compromises. But they're optimistic, I think, as you could discern, about God and his purposes and eternity. So they have this balance of pessimism about the future of mankind, but an optimism about what God and his gospel can do in the lives of people who believe in it.

And that balance of pessimism about the future of the world and optimism about God's plans and purposes is squarely based on what Scripture teaches. The second takeaway that comes across loud and clear is that the turning point in their lives, when they put their faith, their trust in Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord, changed their lives immeasurably for now and for eternity. And by the way, that can be the most important turning point of your life if you're listening today and have not put your faith in who Jesus Christ is and what he did for you on the cross.

Go to our website and read the page on what must I do to be saved, and I exhort you to put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, just as my parents did many, many decades ago. The third takeaway is that the Bible, the Word of God, is their basis for how they think and live. They have a high view of Scripture, and not only that, they still have a need.

They still feel a strong urge and desire to read it and study it and hear it preached on a daily basis, because they know just like physical food helps you physically, the spiritual food of the Bible is what sustains us spiritually. The fourth takeaway is that they are still engaged in life and ministry, even at their elderly ages, as every Christian should be. You know, we may retire from work, but we may work, but we definitely should not retire from the Christian life. We should be praying for the strong desire to grow closer to God and his Son, a greater desire for his Word, opportunities to proclaim the Gospel, to disciple those younger in the faith, and to still be engaged in a local Bible-believing church as we are able. Paul wrote in his second letter to the Corinthians in chapter 4 about living in the here and now in light of eternity. He said, therefore, we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, and I know my parents feel that, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.

That's a good word for all of us to remember as we walk down the narrow road following Christ in this life. Thank you for listening to the Christian Real View. You can hear past programs, order resources for adults and children. You can sign up for our free weekly email and support the ministry or become a monthly partner at our website, thechristianrealview.org, or by calling us, 1-888-646-2233. And also a mention of our national sponsor, Samaritan Ministries.

If you have any health care needs, if you're dissatisfied with your health insurance or looking for something new, we'd highly recommend them. Go to our website, click on their banner, the Samaritan Ministries banner, or we have a direct number to talk to their membership team at 1-877-691-1625. And be sure to tell them you heard about them through the Christian Real View radio program. So as we close, let's remember in this fallen world that Jesus Christ and His word are the same yesterday, today, and forever. Until next time, think biblically, live accordingly, and stand firm. The mission of the Christian World View is to sharpen the biblical worldview of Christians and proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ.

We hope today's broadcast encouraged you toward that end. To hear a replay of today's program, or to sign up for our free weekly email, or to find out what must I do to be saved, go to our website, thechristianworldview.org, or call us toll free at 1-888-646-2233. The Christian World View is a listener supported ministry and furnished by the Overcomer Foundation, a nonprofit organization. You can find out more, order resources, make a donation, become a monthly partner, and contact us by visiting thechristianworldview.org, calling toll free 1-888-646-2233, or writing to Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota, 55331. That's Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota, 55331. Thanks for listening to the Christian World View. Until next time, think biblically and live accordingly.