Josh Harris Departure Part 2: Can a Christian Kiss Jesus Good-Bye?

The Joshua-Harris Departure, Part 2. Can a Christian actually kiss Jesus goodbye? That is a topic we'll discuss today right here on the Christian Worldview Radio Program where the mission is to sharpen the biblical worldview of Christians and to share the good news that all people can be reconciled to God through faith in Jesus Christ. I'm David Wheaton, the host, and our website is thechristianworldview.org. Well, thanks for joining us today for another edition of the Christian Worldview Radio Program. Our topic again is Part 2 of our discussion we started last week on this departure of Joshua Harris, not only from renouncing his book, I Kissed Dating Goodbye, and subsequent books I believe as well, but also his marriage and then eventually saying he is no longer a Christian. And we have a little update since then that he actually marched in a homosexual pride event recently in Vancouver as well.

We have these things linked at our website thechristianworldview.org. So this story continues to evolve and get more and more troubling, especially for Josh Harris. We talked about last week his 1997 bestselling book, I Kissed Dating Goodbye, which advanced the courtship movement over the date and breakup culture and how negative feedback from that book led Harris to reconsider it and eventually tell the publisher to stop printing it. In Part 2 today, we're going to examine an even more important question. Can a Christian lose their faith? Now one side says, if one chooses faith in Christ, one can choose to walk away. Well, the other side says, once saved, always saved.

Well, neither of those phrases are in the Bible. So we're going to find out what the Bible says about this important issue today. And joining us to help us do that is Travis Allen. He's the senior pastor of Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado. He's going to join us today to answer this important question. Let's get to the first segment of that interview. Travis, thank you for coming back on the Christian Worldview radio program to talk about this really shocking story with Josh Harris and get more specifically into today.

Can a true believer lose their faith? Let's start out by just reading for maybe listeners who didn't tune in last week in Part 1. I want to read what Joshua Harris wrote on his Instagram page. He said, my heart is full of gratitude. I wish you could see all the messages people sent me after the announcement of my divorce.

They are expressions of love, though they are saddened or even strongly disapproved of the decision. The information that was left out of our announcement is that I have undergone a massive shift in regard to my faith in Jesus. The popular phrase for this is deconstruction. The biblical phrase is falling away. By all the measurements that I have for defining a Christian, I am not a Christian.

Many people tell me that there is a different way to practice faith and I want to remain open to this, but I'm not there now. If you don't know who Joshua Harris is, he was a best-selling author of a book called I Kiss Dating Goodbye, the pastor of a prominent church on the East Coast, popular speaker. What was your reaction, Travis, when you heard that Josh Harris announced he was not just getting a divorce, but a few days later that he no longer considered himself a Christian? I think probably like everybody who has been familiar with Joshua Harris, whether they're intimately familiar with his ministry or more remotely familiar like I am, it kind of knew him tangentially through CJ Mahaney, through Together for the Gospel and that group.

Yeah, I had heard of his books and stuff. I think that probably like everybody, I felt some bit of sadness and sorrow about this. I probably could say that I wasn't maybe shocked or certainly not dismayed, but not shocked maybe because it just seems that there had been, if you'd kind of heard different things coming up about his departure from his church, kind of disappearing into the Pacific Northwest and going to school, and then with the survival approach to I Kiss Dating Goodbye and the documentary that came out, it did seem that he was on a deconstruction departure and so on that kind of a trajectory. So it didn't shock me, but it was obviously very, very sad.

There's a post by Kevin DeYoung, Greg Gilbert, Collin Hansen, and Justin Taylor. They wrote over the Gospel Coalition website. Evidently, those guys have been pretty good friends with Josh for many years, and they say, for our part, we are still praying that this is a wandering from the path rather than a final abandonment, and they're calling for caution about being hasty in coming to judgment or trying to identify causes for it all, but you certainly feel for guys like that who are definitely losing a friend. In addition to any personal sadness I feel about the man himself, his family, I believe he has three kids that are caught up in this, I have a different kind of a sadness that's a little bit wider in perspective, and I'd say that's mixed with what I can probably only call a settled hope and a joy at the same time. On the sadness side, I'm always sorrowing about the public misrepresentation of Christ and his church. That always, always saddens me because there are some who are, many really, who are using Harris's defection for Christianity to now champion their own unbelieving agendas.

I've read a number of different responses. One woman, her name is Carl, it's either Ewart or Ewart. She's writing in March 2018 for Relevant Magazine, and Relevant Magazine describes itself as the leading platform that is reaching Christian 20 and 30-somethings.

If what the website says is true, it's reaching 2.3 million 20 and 30-somethings per month. The article is called, What Joshua Harris Got Wrong, and she's responding to his I Survived, I Kissed Dating Goodbye whole deal. And what she says he's getting wrong is his male patriarchy and his sexism and his quote, centering of the male voice. So this author sees Harris is caught up in the toxic idea that the male identity, and this is quoting her, the idea that the male identity is the fulcrum on which all things, especially female identity, pivot. Without the male center, all is unhinged and purposeless. So to be clear, without God in the center, all is unhinged and purposeless, but it's the same God who said in 1 Corinthians 11, 8, and 9, man was not made from woman, but woman from man, neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. Now that doesn't make man the fulcrum on which all things pivot, but because of these departures, like Josh Harris' public departure, because he's publicly disavowed his book, he's publicly disavowed the so-called purity culture, his marriage, Christianity itself, just reading sentences like I just read from 1 Corinthians 11, reading them out loud, that draws an angry reaction today.

And I'm not talking just about the world. The feminism of the world has always hated scripture, but I'm talking now about evangelicalism, which is what Relevant Magazine claims to speak for and to speak to, 20 to 30-somethings in the evangelical world. Those are the things that concern me with his announcement. It's giving fuel to those who want to burn Christianity to the ground, especially in today's climate of Me Too, critical theory, spirituality, the call to burn the so-called male patriarchal hegemony to the ground by which men have subjugated women. He is just giving more power to those voices.

So I'm saddened by that. On the other hand, positively, I have a great hope and joy that Christ continues to build his church, that he continues to clarify the true nature and character of the church and the Christians of the church. By Joshua Harris' departure, along with the departure of influential apostates like Rob Bell or Jen Hapmaker, and then along with the decline of influential false pastors like Mark Driscoll or Bill Hybels or James McDonald, I'm very thankful for now for the clarity that comes to the true people of God. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 11, he says, I hear that there are divisions among you, and he doesn't rejoice in the divisions. And the word divisions there is schismata, schism, splits, rifts. The term, it refers to like a tear in a garment. So the sorrow that he has over a tear in a garment, it represents a single garment, a rift in a people who are truly united together in Christ. And then he says this in the very next verse. He says, I hear that there are divisions among you, schismata, and I believe it in part for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.

He's not double speaking there. The word for factions is different than schismata. It's the word hirasis, which is where we get the word heresy. So in the second instance, Paul's talking about heresies, heretical sects, those separatist people or parties or groups that form up and often do so within the church at first, but then they depart from the church. So he says those heretical people, groups, doctrines, apostates, they must be, there's a verb there that talks about how they must do this. They must exist.

Why? In order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. So he says, those are, those who are dacamas, those who are tested, approved, tested according to the truth, according to scripture, according to apostolic doctrine, according to the faith once for all delivered to the saints.

It's so that they may be recognized as being true. So my sorrow over the misrepresentation of Christ, that is going to subside quickly and it's going to give way to a very certain hope that Christ continues to build his church. And the joy that I have in seeing the true church clarified, purified, and further sanctified. And so I do, I rejoice in that sense, not happy, effervescent happiness on the outside, but a deep seed of joy that Christ is doing in his churches and his local expressions that body of Christ. Ephesians 4, 13 to 14, we need to stop being children and we need to grow up.

We need to get mature, strong, and steadfast. So I'm, I rejoice in that. And in some ways you think about that it's almost better.

I don't want to say better for Josh Harris. It's terrible for him, but for the rest of the Christians out there who may have looked up to him and respected him and followed him in some way, at least he's clear about where he is and we know where he stands. He's not a subversive agent who still is professing to be a Christian, still professing to be Orthodox and yet undermining everything for the coming years of his life. So maybe there's a silver lining in that as well.

Absolutely. I mean, obviously he was self-deceived about his own salvation evidently. And so to have clarity even about that fact, he would never be saved if he continued on to the end in Matthew chapter 7, like Jesus says, and said, Lord, Lord, did I not write like his dating goodbye? Did I not have purity before my marriage? Did I not pastor a big mega church? Did I not?

And fill in all the gaps. And then the Lord turns to Joshua Harris and says, depart from me. I never knew you. So to have that kind of clarity is a good thing even for Joshua Harris, but it's also a good thing for us as the church to look on and learn from this. You're listening to an interview with Travis Allen today here on the Christian worldview radio program. Travis is a senior pastor of Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado. We're talking about the really stunning story of Joshua Harris that has been unfolding recently and his departure from his marriage and then his departure from the faith.

We have a lot more to get to with Travis Allen today. Before we get to the end of the first segment here, just want to remind you of our two events coming up in September, mid September. You probably heard something about them, but want to make sure that you know about them in case you want to come to get them on your schedule. We have the Christian worldview speaker series event on September 15th with Daryl Harrison on social justice at Grace Church Eden Prairie, Minnesota, 7pm in the evening, no registration, no cost. The next day our annual golf and dinner event.

It's Monday, September 16th. Go to the Christian worldview.org to find out more about these events right back after this. The prosperity gospel is a prominent false gospel that God offers health, wealth and prosperity if you just have faith and give money. Costi Hinn grew up on the inside of the prosperity gospel movement.

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No cost, no registration, just come. The event will also be live streamed on the Christian worldview Facebook page. For more information, call 1-888-646-2233 or visit thechristianworldview.org. The Christian worldview speaker series with Darrell Harrison, Sunday, September 15th at 7 p.m. at Grace Church Eden Prairie. Call 1-888-646-2233 or visit thechristianworldview.org. To think biblically and live accordingly, that is the motto of the Christian worldview radio program. I'm David Wheaton, the host, and our website is thechristianworldview.org. Looking at a very tragic story last week and this week of Joshua Harris, in case you had just joined us or haven't heard about him, he was a well-known Christian leader, author, pastor and so forth who recently just announced that he was getting a divorce and walking away from Christianity and this past week or just recently he was marching in a homosexual pride parade. Really a stunning story on many levels and so we're spending a couple weeks on this and really the key question we're getting to here today is, can a Christian actually lose their faith? Our guest is Travis Allen. We'll get back to the second segment of the interview with him. The news came out even recently this week from the online publication Christian Headlines and says just a couple weeks after announcing that he is no longer a Christian, former pastor and author Joshua Harris has been spotted at an LGBT pride event in Vancouver, Canada. Posting about the event on his Instagram, Harris uploaded pictures of himself wearing a gay pride shirt and eating rainbow colored donuts. Quote, enjoyed swapping stories, gentlemen, unquote, he wrote, pictured alongside two other men, Matthias Roberts, guest of Queerology, a podcast on belief and being and gay singer Trey Pearson, who is the former frontman of Christian rock band Everyday Sunday.

How do you explain how something like this happens? This isn't like sort of changing on a doctrinal issue like, you know, now I believe in Old Earth versus Young Earth. I mean, that's a major issue, of course, but I mean, this seems like a complete departure from everything he stood for and lived for for almost his entire life.

So I'm probably less optimistic about him returning. You know, when I when I hear the call for caution from the Gospel Coalition guys, I don't know that this is simply a short term wandering on the part of Joshua Harris. It sounds to me like and this is a guy who's been pretty savvy with the use of public platforms and especially social media, Instagram. So when he goes public with something like this, it tells me he's been planning this kind of a departure for quite some time.

And he could do it quietly if he wanted to. But it seems to me that he's making a point here. There's a TEDxHarrisburg talk.

I don't know if you saw that it's a video, but it's called Strong Enough to be Wrong. It's kind of like his mea culpa back back in 2017, November of 2017, mea culpa I kissed dating a bi where he's kind of talking publicly about where he was wrongheaded. And you know, obviously he's not offering a corrective, a positive instruction about here's what I think the Bible really teaches.

He's just basically picking apart his own stuff. Interestingly, he begins that talk by describing his thinking at a time when, and this is what he says about himself. He says, quote, I was 20 years old, I was young, I was religiously zealous, I was certain, and I was restlessly ambitious. Describing himself that way begins a TED talk this way. He tells the audience, I could take you to the exact spot in my parents' living room in Gresham, Oregon, where I knelt down and I prayed this prayer, God, let me write a book that will change the world.

And then Harris cautioned everyone in the audience. He said, be careful what you pray for. So just to be clear, God had already written a book that changed the world. I think it ought to be every Christian's restless ambition to point the world back to that book, to the central figure in that book, who's God.

Our restless ambition as Christians ought to be to point everybody to the central message of the book, which is redemption, reconciliation to God through Christ. But then when Harris talks about be careful what you pray for, he's basically baptizing what I would call at the very least misguided ambition driven by youthful zeal, or at very worst, a selfish ambition. He's baptizing that young ambition with God's blessing for its success as an answer to prayer.

So now that he's renounced the Christian faith, I'm guessing that his views on those early prayers of his, as he's described his own motivation as religious zeal, restless ambition, I think he's probably taking now pretty much a cynical view and unbelieving perspective on the whole thing. He probably sees the book's success had more to do with that dry kindling in a quote unquote purity culture, fundamentalism that represses natural sexual impulses of Christian youth. So he probably looks at it now as those fires that have already been lit, his book just poured fuel on the fire and there's a well-oiled publishing and marketing machine in evangelicalism that fired that thing into a raging inferno.

Everybody's making money, young people getting encouraged to be pure. Harris is scoring interviews, elevated to speaking platforms, he's selling more books. And so when I hear him now in that survival documentary he produced, I Survived I Kissed Dating Goodbye, that's exactly how he comes across now as jaded, cynical, kind of done with the whole thing. But I think that origin story as he tells it really provides interesting insight into his heart and motives. Going back to that, I'm just reminded of what Paul said to Timothy when identifying those God has chosen to be elders who are going to be influential over the church, that the guy must not be a recent convert or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. So I think that there was some of that going on in his heart that he's identified now. Obviously we don't know what's going on in the heart, but the prayer, God let me write a book that will change the world, a Christian praise, God let me deny myself, take up the cross and follow Christ. Godly ambition is a Christ exalting impulse, self-denying impulse. So I think we've got to be very cautious about our hearts here.

And I don't, it doesn't seem that he has been, he's really attended to his heart. Dr. Justin Marchegiani Travis Allen, our guest today on the Christian Real View, the Senior Pastor of Grace Church, Greeley, Colorado. What should the Evangelical Church be learning from the story of Joshua Harris specifically with regard to putting people forward in ministry at a young age without much training and not tested as you were saying?

Dr. Greeley, Colorado. Patience and caution, I think is definitely an order when it comes to affirming people for ministry. You know, we're cautioned about laying hands on people too quickly. When you go slowly with men, you're training and developing and to elevate into pastoral ministry, that's an elder role. So we're looking at 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1, takes time to develop consistency in those qualifications such that a man's life and doctrine is exemplary. And it just seems that he was elevated way too quickly. So unresolved sins in his young heart, obviously have come out 20 years later.

If he's at a gay pride parade in Vancouver, we may not have the end of all that was in his heart all these years. So I just think for any church, we need to be very slow and careful in elevating men into ministry. Now, that said, I don't know what the process was of bringing him on into pastoral ministry. I want to assume the best of the people around him.

You know, CJ Mahaney was at the helm, I believe, in some of that decision. You know, they can only ask so much. The heart is hidden from us. And so you just don't know. I want to be careful not to lay sins at people's feet. But at the same time, I think sometimes when we see people elevated to platforms, we begin to assume certain things that, oh, they've been properly vetted.

This guy's okay. We can buy what he's saying and turn off our discernment. And I think this really does call us to be very careful in discerning and to take our time with people. Travis Allen with us today in the Christian Real View, the senior pastor of Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado.

Their website is gracegreeley.org. Let's get into the crux of what we're going to talk about today. There's really two major perspectives on quote unquote, deconversion. In other words, professing to be a Christian and then later on walking away from it. One side will say, well, one chooses to be a Christian. And then later on, if one chooses not to be a Christian, then one is not a Christian anymore. And then there's the other side that says, well, once saved, always saved.

Once you truly become a follower of Christ, you cannot lose your faith. I'd like you to make the case for which one is biblically accurate. Maybe frame the debate and make the case for which one you believe you understand the Bible to teach. It is a good question.

It comes up all the time. And so any pastor ought to be able to pull right out of his holster a very quick answer on who chose whom. Did God choose us or did we choose God? So if you ask the question that way, did God choose me or did I choose God? I chose God, but it's because God chose me. So we're talking not about did both God and the repentant sinner make a choice? There was a choice made on both sides.

The question is one of priority. Who took the initiative? It's kind of like I compare it to Lazarus in the cave. You know, Lazarus had died. He was four days dead in the cave. And Jesus had to call Lazarus out of the cave.

It was his call, his initiative. And obviously what had to happen in order for Lazarus to get up out of the cave and come out? Well, there had to be some kind of a miracle that allowed his brain to turn back on, his auditory nerves to work again and his whole body to become animated. So obviously there was a miracle of revivication, giving him life again so that he could hear Jesus call and then respond in obedience. That's a visual picture then of what happens in spiritual regeneration. Ephesians 2 says we're dead in our trespasses and sins. And so if we are dead in our trespasses and sins, we're a corpse. We're like a dead body, spiritually speaking.

We can't hear, we can't see, we can't move, we can't take initiative at all. So if anything is going to happen to that person who's dead in trespasses and sins, we've got to be God's initiative. Okay, Travis Allen will answer the rest of that question on eternal security, once saved, always saved or not after this break here on the Christian Worldview radio program.

Hope you'll stay tuned for that. I'll be right back. I'm David Wheaton. You're invited to the Christian Worldview Golf and Dinner event on Monday, September 16th at Woodhill Country Club in Wiesetta, Minnesota. Golf registration includes 18 holes with cart on one of the best courses in the state, along with lunch and dinner.

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Monthly partners can choose to receive resources throughout the year. Call 1-888-646-2233 or go to thechristianworldview.org. Thank you for your support. We are broadcasting live today on the Christian Worldview. It is Saturday, August 10th. And I say that just to remind you that in a little more than a month, we have both of our events coming up.

The Christian Worldview speaker series is Sunday evening, September 15th with Daryl Harrison and how social justice impacts the gospel and the church. That's a no registration, no cost event. If you're not in this area and want to watch the event, we're going to be streaming it live on Facebook. We're also going to have music by higher call that night. So you really enjoy that event on September 15th. The next day, Monday, September 16th, is our golf and dinner event at Woodhill Country Club in Waseda, Minnesota. You have to register for that one.

The deadline for that is Tuesday, September 3rd. You can find out more about these events by going to our website, thechristianworldview.org. But today in the program, we're talking about Joshua Harris in part two, and Can a Christian Kiss Jesus Goodbye? Before the break, Travis was into his answer on, once you're saved, can you lose your salvation? He was using the example of Lazarus coming forth from the grave.

Let's get back to the rest of that answer. And so, if we are dead in our trespasses and sins, we're a corpse. We're like a dead body, spiritually speaking.

We can't hear, we can't see, we can't move, we can't take initiative at all. So if anything is going to happen to that person who's dead in trespasses and sins, it's got to be God's initiative. And that's what God does. John chapter three says, you know, Jesus tells Nicodemus, you must be born again, you must be born from above. So God takes the initiative, causes that sinner to be born.

And that first breath of new life is to look to Christ and to see him as precious and beautiful and Savior and Lord and to put faith in Jesus Christ. And that requires then, of a matter of course, a turning from sin, a repentance. So it's God who takes the initiative. It's kind of like what Jesus said in John six thirty seven. All that the Father gives to me will come to me and whoever comes to me, I will never cast out. I've come down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of whom who sent me. This is the will of him who sent me that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day. So that talks all about the Father's initiative, the Son's perfect saving work, and then the sinner responding with this new nature, now making a choice from a new nature to put faith in Jesus Christ. So that is the sinner's choice, but that sinner, you know, choice and will, that's a function of nature and he cannot will toward God without that new nature. So if God is doing the work, what God does can't not be undone. So once saved, always saved is true. God will cause his chosen elect saints to persevere to the very end. They will endure, but it's because God has done that work.

Yeah. Travis Allen with us today on the Christian Real View, the senior pastor of Grace Church Greeley, Colorado. We're talking about Joshua Harris's departure from the faith, part two today. Can a Christian kiss Jesus goodbye? You mentioned the column written at the Gospel Coalition by Kevin DeYoung, Greg Gilbert, Justin Taylor, and I think one other person talking about concluding by saying something to the effect that, you know, let's pray for him for his return, repentance and so forth. You know, the question is, can someone who has obviously understood the Gospel, professed it, preached it for years as a pastor, wrote about it, can they actually return? You look at Hebrews 6, for in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put him to open shame.

And that's exactly what Joshua Harris is doing right now. He's putting the Son of God to open shame. Does that passage in Hebrews 6 apply to this situation, Travis? All those terms in Hebrews 6 about partaking of the heavenly gift and all those things, I think really do apply to those who witnessed and experienced the work of the Holy Spirit, either through Jesus Christ and his earthly ministry or through the apostles. They saw that and experienced that for themselves. So you remember Jesus' enemies, the Scribes and Pharisees who are always dogging his steps. Never once did they deny that Jesus had done miracles, mighty acts of power. So they were confronted with the reality of the power of the Kingdom of God. They were confronted with the explanation of where it comes from, which is the Gospel and the message of the Kingdom of God and Jesus saying, I myself am that prophesied Messiah. And then he was complete, all his arguments, all his reasoning, everything he said was completely consistent with the Old Testament.

He was not some renegade or a maverick who just threw off all Old Testament restraint, but actually he was the fulfillment of the law. So they could visually see all the evidence of the power of the Kingdom. They could hear for themselves the biblical theological reasoning that came directly in line with the Old Testament. So for those who saw, witnessed, experienced all of that, for them to come to the conclusion, which is the only conclusion the Pharisees and Scribes were left with, there's clear power here. And so it either comes, power like that, it's supernatural. So it either comes from God or it comes from Satan. And so they took all of Jesus' works and they attributed them to being done by the power of Beelzebul. That is a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit that will not be forgiven. And so that, I think, when you take that then into the warning passages in Hebrews, which is written to like second generation, this is a group of Hebrews who are tempted to go back into the synagogue after they have experienced the works of the apostles and the teaching of the apostles. I think that's the danger for them, is everything is so, so clear and you must make a choice. You must get out of the synagogues and come into joining with and gathering with, assembling with the local church.

And so they were waffling on that. The further we have come from that kind of day and clarity, you know, applying that then to Joshua Harris, I think we need to be, well, like the guys that the Gospel Coalition said, I do think we need to be more cautious and I think that our orientation toward Joshua Harris should be one of mourning and prayer, prayer for his repentance, prayer for his return to Christ, to that one that he once professed. I think, you know, at the very end, what they say, our hope is we may once again boast in the cross with our old friend.

That is a sweet, I think that's a very sweet posture to take toward him and toward anybody because while there's breath, there's hope. Thinking about Josh and his context and his experience and what gospel he heard and what, you know, growing up in homeschool movements, I've been kind of familiar with different homeschool movements. You could be very familiar, like, let's say, with the Bill Gothard, some of the Bill Gothard movements and the different conferences that I was in attendance at as a young guy, I never really heard a clear articulation of the gospel in those circles.

So you could grow up in some of these movements, never hear the gospel, and then there's something assumed because you come out of that homeschool movement that you're a Christian, especially when you write something, you know, as best-selling and widely known as I Kissed Dating Goodbye and Calling for Purity and all that. So I just don't know what steps took him along the path of elevation into leadership, maybe through all of this. It's a whittling away of all the false things that Joshua Harris trusted in, in order that the Lord might lead him down a very dark road, but eventually to the cross to see himself as a sinner in need of salvation before a holy God. So I hope that's the case, and I think that's the posture we need to take. And certainly time will tell, you know, Peter himself denied Christ, but there was immediate sorrow over that denial, and there was soon after there was repentance of it, and I think that same criteria can be used here to Joshua Harris.

We'll see what happens in the coming days and weeks and years. Just to be clear, David, I'm not at all optimistic about that being the path of him returning, because I see some of the things he's doing as fairly well calculated and thought out. He seems to be very clear about wanting to identify with the moral and sexual revolution in this country, or in Canada, whether North American or in the Western world. I think that's where he's heading in his heart.

I agree. Travis Allen with us today in the Christian Real View, the senior pastor of Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado. GraceGreeley.org is our website. Final question, because we're running short on time, I'm going to couple two questions together. What is the lesson here in the story of Joshua Harris for those who call themselves Christians, part one, part two or part B of the question is, how do we examine our own hearts to know whether we are truly saved or whether we're deceiving ourselves? The Bible says, you know, test yourself, see whether you're in the faith. How do we do that?

Yeah, so let me try to see if I can answer those together. You know, what's the lesson for us? A lot of lessons to learn more widely, broadly speaking. I think we need to grow in wisdom and discernment about what appears to be commendable in our evangelical culture. I think for so many decades, we've been taught that big numbers, best selling books, conference platforms, fan followers, charisma hype, all the rest. We love that stuff as American evangelicals. We love popularity and fame and fortune and influence. And we seem always to be caught up in that trap.

It's like a honey trap. We're enamored with that stuff. And I think we need to stop being so gullible, realize once again that not all that glitters is gold and put our heads and our hearts back into our Bibles, which is going to direct us back to devoting our energies to our local churches. It's always the fundamentals of the faith. And Travis will get more into that during our last segment, which is coming up right after this break.

So stay tuned. More on the Christian worldview coming up right after this. The next Christian worldview speaker series event is on Sunday, September 15th at 7 p.m. at Grace Church Eden Prairie. It features Darrell Harrison presenting on how social justice impacts the Gospel and the Church. Darrell is a former fellow of the Black Theology and Leadership Institute at Princeton Theological Seminary and an expository Bible teacher. He has a passion for helping Christians understand what they believe and why. He'll do just that with the issue of social justice, followed by a Q&A moderated by host David Wheaton.

No cost, no registration. Just come. The event will also be live streamed on the Christian worldview Facebook page. For more information, call 1-888-646-2233 or visit thechristianworldview.org. The Christian worldview speaker series with Darrell Harrison, Sunday, September 15th at 7 p.m. at Grace Church Eden Prairie.

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Normal retail is $17.99 without shipping. To order, call 1-888-646-2233 or visit thechristianworldview.org. Final segment of the day here on the Christian worldview radio program, our topic is the Joshua Harris departure part two.

Can a Christian actually kiss Jesus goodbye? It's the question of eternal security and our guest is Travis Allen. He's the senior pastor of Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado. If you don't know much about Travis, let me give you a little bit more of his bio. I should have been doing this earlier in the program, but he's got a very interesting background. He was a former Navy SEAL, served our country in that capacity. He's also the former managing director of Grace to You, which is John MacArthur's radio ministry. You might remember also that he was our featured speaker at the Christian worldview conference back in 2016 and he's also married and the father of five children. Again, the website if you want to connect with his ministry, his sermons and so forth is gracegreeley.org.

Okay, let's get back to the final segment of the day with Travis Allen. What is the lesson here in the story of Joshua Harris for those who call themselves Christians? Part one, part two or part B of the question is how do we examine our own hearts to know whether we are truly saved or whether we're deceiving ourselves?

The Bible says, you know, test yourself, see whether you're in the faith. How do we do that? Realize once again that not all that glitters is gold and put our heads and our hearts back into our Bibles, which is going to direct us back to devoting our energies to our local churches. Obviously, we're going to be looking around to what's happening in the wider world and we'll never stop doing that. And our efforts and our energies need to be poured into making disciples, which happens in and through the local church.

That's our great commission. So I think we as evangelicals need to learn that. And then as we put our heads and our hearts back into Scripture and devote ourselves to discipling other Christians and evangelizing non-Christians, we have to come back to salvation is by the grace of God alone. It's through faith alone.

It's in Christ alone. And there are some people, I mean, three years Judas Iscariot walked around with all the other disciples, sitting at Jesus' feet, learning all the things they're learning, saying all the things they're saying. He was sent out in Luke chapter 9, along with the other twelve or the other eleven, to preach the kingdom of God.

And he did. According to what we can tell, he performed miracles by the power of the Spirit. All this stuff is happening in the life of Judas Iscariot. So much so that in John 13, when Peter asks, who is it? And they're all asking, who is the betrayer? Who's the betrayer? Is it me, Lord? Is it me, Lord?

They don't know. Nobody said, oh, I think it's Judas. He was the last one from their mind. So I think we just need to get our eyes off of maybe all the external signs and look to Scripture, look to salvation by the grace of God alone, through faith alone in Christ alone. Do we need to emphasize once again, you must be born again? We need to expect that those who are born again have, 2 Corinthians 5 17, they have a new nature in Christ. The old has gone and the new has come. Those with a new nature, they will not continue in sin.

They're not going to continue living in the world and being worldly. They're going to bear the fruit of that new nature. And it's a fruit that's produced by the Holy Spirit, Galatians 5 22. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

If you define all those fruits biblically, you'll see it's impossible for the old nature for any non-Christian to produce those. It has to be produced by the Holy Spirit. And we're going to watch that produced to the very end.

We're going to watch those people endure. So how do we examine our own hearts? Well, objectively, do we believe the gospel? And I'm not talking just about intellectual understanding or an ascent to its truthfulness, but do we embrace the gospel with our heart? With that embracing of the gospel, is there a core change in my affections? Do I find within my heart a love and a devotion to Jesus Christ? Do I love his word? Do I, like the psalmist says in Psalm 119, Oh, how I love your law.

Do we in swimming completely upstream against this culture, do we love to obey the word of God? Do we find that our pleasure and our joy? Do we find God to be our great reward? Are we satisfied in him, in him alone? Or do we always crave something else? Are we finding greater obedience and fruit bearing in our lives? Fear produced fruit and all the rest.

I think it comes down to those kinds of things. Like the church in Ephesus, that church had so much to commend it. Hard work, toil, patient endurance, discernment, love for moral and doctrinal purity. But Jesus said, Revelation 2, 4 and 5, I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love that you had at first. So he said, remember therefore from where you fallen, repent and do the work she did at first. Those are works that were driven by love for Christ. I'm guessing that all along that's been the trouble with Joshua Harris's heart, that he has not found his way back to love for Jesus Christ.

And I think that's what we need to clarify. Love for Christ, adherence to the gospel, a new nature with new affections. Those are the things I think we need to clarify, especially in this evangelical moment when the entire title of the culture is turning against us. We need to stand together on those kind of biblical convictions. We appreciate you, Travis. We appreciate your love for Christ, for God and his word. We're thankful that there are pastors like you faithfully preaching the whole counsel of God every Sunday, discipling those under your care at your church. And so we just continue to pray all of God's best and grace to you. And as you continue to stand strong in him, thank you for coming on the program, Travis. Well, thank you so much for having me, David.

It's been once again, it's been a pleasure and an honor. But, you know, just to be clear, I hold fast to Christ, because I can't do anything else. And I hold fast to him because he holds on to me.

I've heard John MacArthur say this a number of times, if I could lose my salvation, I would. But it's God who holds on to us. It's Christ who holds on to us.

And we're so grateful for that. There's the answer to the question, can a Christian lose their salvation? The answer is no, because God is the one who initiates it. And he's the one that promises to keep it.

It's not up to us to be able to keep it. Yes, we respond to his offer of salvation. It's only after he's enlivened us to understand who he is and what his gospel message is. Look at these verses from John and Romans and 1 Peter. I give them eternal life, Jesus says, and they never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them believers to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hands.

You can't lose your salvation. Romans 8, For I am sure that neither death nor life nor angels nor rulers nor things present nor things to come, nor powers nor height nor depth nor anything else, in other words, nothing will be able to separate us, believers, from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. John 6, 37, All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 1 Peter 3, read that, verse 3, Ephesians 1, 13 and 14, John 5, 24, so many passages and verses. God promises that whom He saves, He will never cast out.

Whom He adopts, He doesn't unadopt. Whom He justifies, declares righteous, He doesn't let go. That should be our encouragement today. Thank you for joining us here on the Christian Real View. We do live in a changing and challenging world, but there is one thing the Bible says that we can always trust in and count on. Jesus Christ and His Word.

They are the same yesterday, today and forever. Until next weekend, think biblically and live accordingly. We hope today's broadcast turned your heart toward God, His Word and His Son. To order a CD copy of today's program, or sign up for our free weekly email, or to find out how you can be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, go to our website, thechristianworldview.org. Or call us toll free at 1-888-646-2233. The Christian World View is a weekly one-hour radio program that is furnished by the Overcomer Foundation and is supported by listeners and sponsors. Request one of our current resources with your donation of any amount. Go to theChristianworldview.org, or call us toll free at 1-888-646-2233. Or write to us at Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota, 55331. That's Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota, 55331. Thanks for listening to The Christian World View. Until next time, think biblically and live accordingly.