“Tactics” for Conversations with Non-Believers

Tactics for Conversations with Non-Believers. Greg Koeckel, the President of Stand to Reason, joins us today right here on the Christian Worldview Radio Program, where the mission is to sharpen the biblical worldview of Christians and to share the Good News, the Gospel, that all people can be reconciled to God through faith, in Jesus Christ.

I'm David Wheaton, the host, and our website is thechristianworldview.org. Well, we thank you for joining us today on the Christian Worldview Radio Program as we talk about tactics for conversations with non-believers, and we'll also get to some current events, worldview in the news later in the program as well. But the worldview divide between biblical Christians and the rest of society, whether they are secular or religious people, has never been wider. Yet our commission, so to speak, the Great Commission, remains the same to make disciples of Jesus Christ, Matthew 28, 19, and 20.

Now before someone becomes a disciple, they must first repent and believe in the Gospel, as Christ said in Mark chapter 1. And to get to that point of regeneration or new life or being born again, God will likely use a conversation, or many conversations, with a Christian. Sometimes it happens another way, but often it happens through a conversation with a believer. Now navigating conversations with non-believers, it is many things.

It's tricky, it's exciting, it's anxiety-inducing, it's frustrating, and it's sharpening. It sharpens your worldview when you do that. But above all, it's the believer's calling.

1 Peter 3.15 says, Sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asked you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence. We'll talk more about that passage today after the interview. So this weekend on the Christian Real View, Greg Kochel, president of Stand to Reason and author of Tactics, a game plan for discussing your Christian convictions, joins us to discuss how to navigate these important spiritual conversations with non-believers. Let's get to the first segment of the interview with Greg Kochel. Tactics, the book, isn't so much of a book on apologetics specifically, but rather on navigating conversations. Explain that more, Greg.

Yeah, that's a great way of putting it, David. I teach at a lot of apologetics conferences, and those are great because they give you information, but they create a problem too. Because the difficulty is, how do I take all this great stuff I've learned, either at a conference or from books or your show, for example, and how do I get it into play in a conversation?

And so there's a missing bridge, a bridge from the content to the conversation or from the scholarship to the relationship. And that's what the tactics book provides. It provides, as the subtitle goes, a game plan for discussing your Christian convictions. Now, as I spell out the game plan and a number of different tactics that are maneuvers you can put into play to help you be an effective communicator of your convictions in defense of Christ, there are all kinds of illustrations that I use there and develop that have substance to them. So people are going to learn a lot of apologetics when they read the book, but they're going to learn them in the context of using those things in a conversation. And I show them exactly how to maneuver so that their engagements look, let's call it more like diplomacy than D-Day, okay?

And that's the kind of thing we're after. One other thing I'll mention, David, this is a game plan that provides a tremendous amount of safety for the Christian. That is, even though they're making headway in productive ways better than they ever thought they could before, but there's almost no pressure on them because the way this is constructed, the other person is doing most of the talking, but we are in the driver's seat of the conversation because of the way the game plan plays out. Greg Kochel with us today on the Christian Real View, the founder and president of Stand to Reason.

Their website is str.org. Stand to Reason is having actually an apologetics conference for students here in the Twin Cities coming up on November 8th and 9th, and Greg is going to tell us about that in just a little bit. So sometimes, Greg, conversations with non-believers can kind of get sideways and it can become a what do we say or we're trying to win the argument. I think it's important to keep the objective in these conversations with non-believers clear and correct. What is the Christian trying to do in a conversation with someone who isn't a believer?

Well, I'll give you my view on this, and I'm going to tell you right now that with some people it's a little bit controversial. Before there could be any harvest, there always has to be a season of let's just call it gardening. How do you get people in a position where the fruit is ripe? And I think most of the work in evangelism is gardening, and I have some biblical reasons for saying this, but I'm just summing it up for you right now. And so what I want to do is teach people to be gardeners. And I'll tell you something, David, you know this, there are a lot of gardeners that are sitting on the bench because they think they have to be harvesters and they're not good at that.

It's discomforting for them, it seems like conflict, and so they don't do anything. And when I give them the tool here with a goal of not closing the deal, but of, and here's the way I put it, just putting a stone in the shoe of the non-Christian, just getting them thinking, just in a certain sense annoying them a little bit, but in a good way. That's my goal, that's all I want to do. If I can do that in a conversation, if I can do a little spade work, okay, if I can pull a few weeds, I can water a little bit here, I can plant a seed, is a biblical way of putting it.

If I can do that, then I'm making a contribution to that person's life, and I trust that God is going to bring on other gardeners into their life to accomplish that. And so with that more modest goal, we have a game plan that allows them to do that spade work. And that's the tactical game plan. Again, Greg Kochel with us today on the Christian worldview. And I mentioned that Tactics, your book, has been updated and expanded.

It's the 10th anniversary edition. Tell us about how the culture has changed in the last 10 years and how that change has required a change in maybe the tactics, so to speak, of discussing our Christian convictions. I'm thinking maybe specifically about really the growth of homosexuality, the affirmation of that and transgenderism and that sort of thing. Is there something you would say with regards to how tactics have necessarily needed to be changed? In one sense, David, the tactics don't need to be changed, not in my view. And this is one of the great things about the tactics is that they have a tremendous flexibility to them. What's happened is the tactical approach has become absolutely essential if you're going to navigate in this much more hostile and ideologically electrified environment.

There are challenges that are so bizarre that are coming up now that did not come up 10 years ago that unless you know how to maneuver carefully, the Christian is going to be completely flat-footed when they have to deal with challenges. And so this is where the tactical game plan really shines. But those who are familiar with the tactics book, they know how it teaches you to maneuver even with the most difficult challenges. We do that with a basic tactic. I call it the Colombo tactic after Lieutenant Colombo who lots of folks still remember from television like four decades ago, but he uses questions to maneuver.

And so let's just think. You're facing those kinds of whatever intense challenge that your listeners face now. If you are faced with that challenge and you simply ask the question, well, help me understand your challenge here. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that. Can you flesh it out a little bit for me? Okay, now that's the first move. You're gathering more information. You're using a form of the question, what do you mean by that? But notice how the challenge comes on strong, whatever it happens to be.

The Christian is uncomfortable, doesn't know how to deal with it. They're on the spot. But if they calmly just and graciously just toss the ball back in the other person's court with a genial request for more information, I notice some people are not familiar with this. This might sound like a bad move. It's not. It's fabulous because it takes you off of the defensive and it lets the other person do more talking and forces them to clarify their challenge. And I'll tell you something, David, I know from years of experience with just this one question, when people are forced to begin thinking through and clarifying the nature of their objection, it stops them in their tracks. They have to think about it and they realize, wait a minute, I haven't really thought through this.

I'm repeating a slogan. There's a lot more to it, of course. But in answer to your question, what's going on nowadays in the last ten years, I've found that tactics are much more crucial than they ever have been. And in the ten years, I've learned lots of new maneuvers and ways to approach these issues that I did ten years ago. And that's why the tenth anniversary edition has 40 percent more material, six new chapters, completely revised and expanded for the believer. Just give us an example of how you would ask those questions to explain yourself a little more, what you think about that with someone who challenges a conviction that a Christian would hold.

I'll give you one that happened yesterday. So somebody says, well, your view is so narrow, it's so arrogant. And so I said to him, well, I'm confused about that.

I hope I'm not arrogant, but what do you mean by arrogant? Well, you think your way is right and everybody else is wrong, okay? And I said, well, I do think I'm right and I'm not just making up, I got some reasons, but can I ask you a question?

What's that? You think I'm mistaken in my approach, right? Yeah, sure I do. You're trying to correct me, is that right? Yeah, what you're doing is wrong. It's arrogant. I said, so do you think that my view is mistaken and your view is right and you are trying to correct my false view so that I believe like you, is that right? Well, there's a little pause now, but he says, well, yeah, that's basically it. I said, well, then why aren't you considered arrogant for doing the same thing that you're accusing me of being arrogant for doing?

Touché. Yeah, and see, notice my tone and my posture are all relaxed, they're all friendly, genial, but I'm getting to the heart of this. He's accusing me of a character flaw because I think I'm right on something really important and I'm trying to persuade other people to change their mind, which as it turns out is the exact thing that he's doing with me in that moment, but he isn't doing it in such a nice way. He's calling me names. So instead of taking offense, I just unpack what's going on for him by asking a series of questions to which he's all responding, yeah, yeah, I think you're wrong, you shouldn't be doing that.

He walks right into it, but it's not an illicit trap. I want him to in a certain sense declare clearly that he thinks I'm wrong and I should believe like he does, and then I can spring the last question to show that in practical terms his view commits suicide, which is one of the tactics. He's doing the very things he's claiming that I should not be doing, and it left him speechless. So what I'm trying to do there is not get a notch in my spiritual belt. I'm trying to help him to see that challenging my view by calling me arrogant is not going to get us anywhere.

What I want him to see is the best way for him to do it is to try to figure out who's right on the issue we are discussing instead of being distracted by name calling. Greg Kochel is our guest today here on the Christian Reel of Your Radio program. He is the founder and president of Stand to Reason. It's an apologetics ministry. He's talking about tactics for conversations with non-believers. We mentioned that Stand to Reason and some of their team and others are coming to the Twin Cities, Minneapolis St. Paul coming up soon, November 8th and 9th for the Rethink Apologetics student conference.

You can find out more about that at RethinkApologetics.com. It's held at Grace Church in Eden Prairie. All right, we have much more coming up today on the Christian Reel of Your Radio. We hope you will stay with us.

I'm David Wheaton and we'll be right back after this. There's an abundance of resources available in Christian bookstores and online, but the sad reality is that many of them, even some of the most popular, do not lead to a sound and strong faith. A key aim of the Christian worldview is to identify and offer resources that are biblically faithful and deepen your walk with God. In our online store, we have a wide range of resources for all ages, adult and children's books and DVDs, Bibles and devotionals, unique gifts and more. You can also browse our store at thechristianworldview.org and find enriching resources for yourself, family, friends, small group or church. You can also order by calling our office toll free at 1-888-646-2233.

That's 1-888-646-2233. Or visit thechristianworldview.org. Social justice is a gospel issue. This has become the mantra of many evangelicals. Rectifying perceived inequities of race, gender, sexuality, poverty, immigration, amongst others, is considered a top priority. But what exactly is social justice? Is working for social justice a biblical mandate, an application of the gospel? Kel Biesner has written an insightful booklet entitled Social Justice, How Good Intentions Undermine Justice and Gospel. Also included in this revised 44-page booklet is a copy of the just released Statement on Social Justice and the Gospel. You can order this social justice booklet for a donation of any amount to The Christian Worldview. Go to thechristianworldview.org or call 1-888-646-2233 or write to Box 401 Excelsior, Minnesota 55331. Well, thank you for joining us today on the Christian Worldview radio program.

I'm David Wheaton, the host. Our website is thechristianworldview.org. You can go there to subscribe to our free weekly email. It comes out every Friday.

You can get short takes through that, little audio sound bites, highlights of each week's program. Our annual print letter is coming up. A newsletter is going out. You can sign up for that if you'd like to receive that here at the end of the year.

It also has all the resources, a guide for that for ordering those at the end of the year. Just go to thechristianworldview.org and sign up for that. Today in the program, Greg Kochel, the founder and president of Stand to Reason, their website is str.org, joins us to talk about his book, his popular book, Tactics. It's a 10-year anniversary edition of the book, a game plan for discussing your Christian convictions. Let's continue with the interview with Greg Kochel. Greg Kochel again with us today on the Christian Worldview. We're talking about his book, Tactics, a game plan for discussing your Christian convictions. He's the founder and president of Stand to Reason, str.org, is their website. They're also doing a conference here in the Upper Midwest in the Twin Cities at Grace Church, Eden Prairie, November 8th and 9th, called the Rethink Apologetics Student Conference. And you can find out more about that at grace.church. Greg, is that also at your website too? RethinkApologetics.com. There's the whole lineup with all the speakers, which would be our team, Tim Barnett, Alan Schliemann, myself, Amy Hall, also J. Warner Wallace of Cold Case Christianity fame, Frank Turek with Cross-Examine.

He wrote the book, I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. Chris, for you on, is going to be speaking on the issue of homosexuality. We just did this conference in Southern California. We had 2,700 young people bursting Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa at the absolute seams, man. It was unbelievable.

Almost the same lineup that we have here. And by the way, this is geared for students, but nothing is dumbed down. It's made a lot more fun for them.

But the content is really solid, rich stuff. It starts early on Friday evening, usually at about 6.30, and the doors are open at 5.30. We go to after 10 at night.

We start first thing in the morning and then go all day Saturday. They are going to have an unbelievable experience at Grace Church in Eden Prairie. And by the way, we're not checking any IDs at the door.

So old folk like you, David, you can come too. What do you mean? I still think I'm a student.

I still think I'm a teenager. Okay. The website is RethinkApologetics.com. Now, one of the things you write in your book, Greg, on page 30 is, the tactical approach requires as much careful listening as thoughtful response. And so it's really about listening to what the other side is saying and then having a wise response or question to what they're saying.

How can that be improved? Because it seems like that is the aspect of the tactical approach that requires some thinking on your feet or quick thinking in response to something that's said to you. Well, what's really interesting about this, David, is it turns out to be just the opposite. It doesn't require a lot of quick thinking on our part. When I ask a question, for example, help me out, I'm a little confused on that challenge you offered.

Can you explain it further? That doesn't require any quick thinking. I've already got that question packed in.

It's ready to go. That's very easy for Christians to have. You can be a brand new Christian one day old and know to ask that. Now the part of listening, as you pointed out, comes in and that's really critical. But we're not just listening to be polite. We are listening to gather information about that person's view. And every time there is an ambiguity or something that can be clarified more, we're going to ask that person to clarify it more.

Now as time goes on and people do this and they get further into the more advanced sections of the tactics in the book, they're going to get better at being good on their feet. But they will be amazed at how much they can do just with that one question and the follow-up question for somebody who's making a claim like there is no God or Jesus never existed, the Bible's been changed or evolution proves that there is no God or science proves that, you know, all of these things. The next question, after you get clarification, is to ask them how did they come to that conclusion.

Now again, a model question. How did you come to that conclusion? And now you're asking them for the reasons. So notice what the Christian is doing. What's so clever about asking, hey, tell me more about your view. I don't understand that part.

Can you explain that better to me? What's so clever about asking, oh, okay, I think I get it now, but can you tell me why you think that's actually the way it happened or why you think that's actually true? The question keeps the Christian in the driver's seat, yet at the same time there's no pressure on them. It's very simple to do this, and all they have to do is listen to what the other person has to say.

And the other guy's doing all the work, although in a certain way they're not really working because it's a relaxed conversation. And you will be absolutely amazed, your listeners will be, how those two questions, what do you mean by that and how did you come to that conclusion or some appropriate variation is going to allow them to make tremendous progress because this forces the other person to be clear and give the reasons, and there are a lot of times their ideas are muddled and they have no reasons, and the questions themselves have a powerful impact to get the other person thinking. Yeah, which leads into the next question, which is you've encountered so many people with different world views, atheists, secularists, Eastern religions, all different kinds of other religions. You say in the book, you talk about that ultimately a Christian does not have to live in any sort of fear or concern or anxiety about the other side's viewpoint because ultimately we believe that the Bible is the truth, so the truth is on our side. And even with people who are highly educated, highly articulate, good debaters, there's always a crack, there's always some sense of sort of crack or fault, fault line in the other person's world view. Talk about those two issues of a Christian's confidence, but also how they can know that the other side will have cracks in their world view.

Right. One suggestion though, I avoid the word believe or belief or faith in my conversations with non-Christians because what they read from those words is they read a leap of faith or belief. And so what I want to say is that these are my convictions. These are the things that I think are true about the world, and I have some reasons for that. Now, if our view is true, as you pointed out, the contrary views are going to have problems.

Well, it turns out, and I've been studying this for 46 years, there's tons of problems with the contrary views. A newbie in tactics or apologetics won't see all of those right away, but the second half of the book gives techniques to help them to see whether a point of view leads to absurd conclusions. This is called taking the roof off, or it's self-refuting in some way, like the illustration I gave earlier.

That's called the suicide tactic. And then once you are able to see the flaws and the cracks, and that sometimes takes a little time, which is okay, then you can use questions to try to exploit those flaws that they might see. And of course, as I mentioned in the book, there are a multitude of illustrations of how those things work. For example, when somebody says, look, you believe in the Bible and God and all that, I believe in science. Science is what gives you truth about the world, not all that other stuff. Well, it turns out that view is actually self-refuting. And so I talk about not only how this defeats itself, but also questions you can ask to demonstrate how it defeats itself.

So these are all examples of kind of seeing these flaws. But what I want your people to understand, David, is you don't have to be an expert in any of these things to just start out. The first two questions keep you in a passive position in a certain sense. That is, you're not making claims, you're not advancing your own ideas, so you have nothing to defend. Instead, you're asking questions about the other person's ideas.

And when you ask the right questions, it has a powerful impact of unsettling them and their confidence. Greg Kochel again with us today here on the Christian Real View, discussing his updated book, Tactics, Conversations with Non-Believers. He's also coming to the Twin Cities area November 8th and 9th for their Rethink Apologetics student conference at Grace Church Eden Prairie.

The website is rethinkapologetics.com. Now, Paul, in his sermon on Mars Hill in Athens, in Acts 17, is often used as a model for conversation with non-believers. But in reading that in preparation for our interview today, it really seems like a kind of a one-way preaching message to me. He said, Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. While I was passing through and examining the object of your worship, I also found an altar with his inscription to an unknown God. And then he just goes into this, the next sentence. Therefore, what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you, the God who made the world and all things in it, since he is Lord of heaven and earth. He does not dwell on temples made with hands, nor is he served by human hands as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all people life and breath and all things.

And he goes on and on and on. Then he gets to the end in verse 3, he says, Therefore, here is the conclusion to his sermon, having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because he has fixed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness through a man whom he has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising him from the dead. I mean, this is a very direct proclamation, a command, if you will, an assertion to repent. And then the reaction was, there were the three responses that we always get to when we have a spiritual conversation or present the gospel to someone and said, Some began to sneer, others said, We want to hear more from you, and some joined them and believed. How do you categorize that conversation as to how you're talking about and getting to tactical conversations with non-believers? Okay, Greg Kochel will answer that question after this next break of the day here on the Christian Real View Radio program. Again, our guest is Greg Kochel from Stand to Reason. We're talking about conversations with non-believers in light of Greg's book, Hactics. It's a game plan for discussing your Christian convictions.

You know, if you're a believer and you get outside your house, you're likely going to be bumping up against non-believers. And we're here on earth not just to have it for ourselves, but to share this good news we've been given with other people. How do we do that? How do we enter into those conversations?

How do we make those transitions? We'll get into that more next on the Christian Real View. The prosperity gospel is a prominent false gospel that God offers health, wealth, and prosperity if you just have faith and give money. Costi Hinn grew up on the inside of the prosperity gospel movement.

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Your email and mailing address will never be shared and you can unsubscribe at any time. Call 1-888-646-2233 or visit thechristianworldview.org. Think biblically and live accordingly. That's what we strive to do here on the Christian World View radio program every week as we cover various topics, both in the Christian life and in current events, try to sharpen our biblical worldview, and proclaim the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Today in the program we're talking with Greg Kochel, the president of Stand to Reason, about tactics, so to speak, title of his book, for conversations with non-believers. Try to sow spiritual seeds, get to the gospel, fulfill the Great Commission. That's our calling as believers.

We have one short segment left with him and then we'll get to some worldviews in the news, so let's get back to the last segment with Greg Kochel. This is a very direct proclamation, a command, if you will, an assertion to repent. And then the reaction was, there are the three responses that we always get to when we have a spiritual conversation or present the gospel to someone and said, some begin to sneer, others said we want to hear more from you, and some join them and believed. How do you categorize that conversation as to how you're talking about and getting to tactical conversations with non-believers?

Sure, it's a great question, and I want to make a couple of observations. First of all, I love that passage. First of all, he starts with where they are at. He talks about their gods and their idol.

He's very congenial at that point. Then he begins to reason with them. He gives them a step-by-step rationale.

He quotes their own Epicurean philosophers. He skipped over that portion for time's sake. And then he does get to a conclusion at the end, but the conclusion is grounded in evidence, having provided proof for all men by raising this man from the dead. Now, taken as a whole, keep in mind what he's doing.

He's at the Areopagus. This is a place where people come and give speeches, so he gave a speech. He was not talking to an individual person. When you look at Jesus' life, that's why you don't see questions and all of that. When you look at Jesus' life, though, he asked hundreds of questions.

There are all kinds of times when he's engaging individuals or small groups of individuals, and he offers a question to them. Whose image is on this coin? Caesar's. Well, render under Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and under God the things that are God's.

Was the baptism of John from God or from men? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so this gives us two different motifs.

When I have to go to university, I was at George Mason two weekends ago in the D.C. area, I gave a talk. So I started at the beginning and went to the end. But then we had open Q&A, and all the atheists jumped up at the microphone, and guess what I began using? Questions. My tactics. The tactics, yeah. It's the place in that individual conversations where those tactics are going to be most valuable. And incidentally, 99.9% of the people that are listening to your show right now, David, are not the kind of people that are going to be able to get up on a stage before a large audience and give the kind of sermon that we see Paul giving there in the book of Acts on the Areopagus. They're going to be the kind of people that with their boots on the ground day to day talking to individuals.

And that's the circumstance where tactics shine. Well said. Greg Kochel with us today on the Christian Real View. Talk about your own conversion experience to Christ when you were, I believe it was in your 20s, and how some of the things that you have based your ministry on today were effective with you back then.

You know, it's a good question, and it's an unusual circumstance for me, because I'm looking at the Rethinks ad right now, and there's Jay Warner Wallace and there's Frank Turek, both well-known Christian apologists who are one to Christ as a result of apologetics. In my case back in 1973, apologetics actually ironically did not play that big of a part in my own conversion. I had my brother who was the gardener in my life who just kept communicating the Gospel to me over a longer period of time, and it just began to sink in by the power of the Holy Spirit. Now, people would get one to Christ in different ways. Sometimes there's an argument, sometimes there's an experience, and sometimes there is just a, you know, you get worn down by the Holy Spirit, what Lewis called the hound of heaven, you know. And I think that's more of how my life developed as a Christian.

But after I became a Christian, of course I naturally wanted to tell other people about Christ, and as I began doing that, I started getting a lot of pushback. And that's when I thought, I better get some answers to these challenges, not only for them, but for me. And as I began to study Francis Schaeffer and John Warwick Montgomery and C.S.

Lewis and Josh McDowell, these are the guys that were around then, there weren't too many of them, just a handful. But as I began to read them, this is when I deepened my own convictions about the truth of Christianity, and then I was able to go out in a much bolder, more confident, courageous way with content to be able to address the challenges that I was experiencing. The final question for you, Greg, is just give us an overview of what students and even adults who want to come are going to experience at the upcoming Rethink Apologetics student conference on November 8th and 9th here in the Twin Cities at Grace Church of Eden Prairie. Yeah, the theme this year is Rethinking Your False Ideas About God. Each speaker is going to be addressing a different aspect of that. For example, Christopher Ewan coming out of the gay culture and giving us clear ideas about, clear understanding about God's perspective, but also how in a gracious, winsome, and attractive way we can address those challenges. We're going to have issues that deal with the origin of the universe.

We're going to have issues that deal with the character of God. We're going to have a whole segment at the end of Saturday, as I mentioned, where we're talking about the tactical approach and how engaging people is really effective in a very effective way. We don't dumb it down.

We don't put it on the lower shelf, but we do throw the ball so that people can catch it. We've been doing this in Orange County for nine years and also in Dallas and in Birmingham, Alabama, and now we're reaching up to the Midwest region to draw from that whole region. Usually people from 15 states are represented at any regional, and we're really thrilled at being able to work with Grace Church in Eden Prairie to make this happen on November 8th and 9th. Well, we're excited to have you and your team come up here, and we'll be praying that there's a big impact in this younger generation as they hear reasons for why they believe and the WorldView battles that are taking place all around us today.

Very important. So, Greg, thank you for all you do with Stand to Reason. We always enjoy having you on the Christian Real View Radio program, and we just wish all of God's best and grace to you.

Well, thanks. It's a lot of fun for me, and just incidentally, we've already got over 1,600 people signed up for this conference. I'm glad to be here talking about this with you, David.

Thanks for giving me a shot. Okay, Greg Kochel again was our guest. The title of his book is Tactics, a Game Plan for Discussing Your Christian Convictions. We have it linked on thechristianrealview.org. We'd really recommend this book to you just because it's going to sharpen you, help you be more intentional about getting in these conversations with non-believers and how to navigate them.

So I wrote down a few things that I think just in summary from the interview today. Number one is pray for these conversations and the spirits leading in them. That's really important because when you start praying for something, it starts to become on your mind.

And it's ultimately, if you try to do this in your own power and your own cleverness and so forth, it's just not going to work out very well. God is the one who brings someone to saving faith. We're blind. God can only open the blind person's eyes. And so we need to be praying to God, asking him that these conversations would happen, that his spirit would lead us in these conversations.

That's number one. Number two is you need to prepare for these conversations. And that means taking in the word on a regular basis so you know what you believe.

You're never going to know everything but increase, improve what you know about Scripture and the reasons for why you believe what you believe. Think in advance about what you want to say. When you read tactics, you'll know those two questions Greg mentioned today. What do you mean by that? Make someone explain what they mean. Don't just let them get away with some statement and then making you respond. Let them explain a little more.

And then how did you come to that conclusion? Know those couple of questions in advance and how these conversations should go. It's like a game plan before a sporting event.

A team has a game plan for what they're going to do. We need the same thing when we engage in conversations with non-believers. Point three is don't force something. Don't feel like you have to force something that's not there. If someone is unwilling to enter into a conversation or you sense that they're contrary or they're just downright rude, don't try to force something on someone who's not willing. You can't leverage or force someone, an unwilling person, into the kingdom of God. So just pray about it, maybe for another time, another person.

You don't need to feel like you need to get into high tension encounters with people. Number four, keep your expectations for these conversations biblical. And by that I mean I liked his example of some of us are gardeners, some of us are harvesters. Now the gardeners are those that sow the seeds, who get into these conversations, not necessarily bringing that person to coming right to the point of would you like to repent and put your faith in Christ, that point of conversion, that's more of a harvester, but just being a gardener.

Anyone can be a gardener, and that's a very important role, by the way. One role is not more important than the other, gardener versus harvester, because ultimately it's God is the one who gives the increase. He's the one that brings someone to saving faith. Look at what it says in 1 Corinthians chapter 3. What then is Apollos, and what is Paul?

Paul is writing this. Servants, we're just servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. Paul says, I planted and Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. And he's using another word there for gardeners and harvesters. Paul had planted, he was the gardener, and Apollos was the harvester, he was the waterer.

So they're just different role players on the same team. Number five, real quick, we're coming up to the break here. Engagement. When you do this more, it's going to lead to improvement. You don't need to worry about having every answer or ever losing. It's always a win when you sow seeds of the gospel. And finally, use scripture. Get to Christ if you can. Explain the gospel in your own story. That's a win.

We'll be back after this. Environmental scaremongering is the favored tactic of the left to gain massive government control. After all, if you can convince people that we are imperiling our very existence by human-caused climate change, there is no tax, law, or reordering of society that goes too far. Christians need to be fully informed of this nefarious climate change scheme. That is why we are offering two resources by Cal Beisner, founder of the Cornwall Alliance for the Stewardship of Creation, who brings a truthful, biblical worldview to this issue. Climate Change in the Christian is an 80-minute DVD message, and The Cosmic Consequences of Christ's Crosswork is a 15-page booklet. One or both are available for a donation of any amount to The Christian Worldview.

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Monthly partners can choose to receive resources throughout the year. Call 1-888-646-2233 or go to thechristianworldview.org. Thank you for your support. Final segment of the day here on The Christian Worldview. Just a thank you to all of you who write to us, encourage us through your notes, pray for us, support the ministry of The Christian Worldview. We are really grateful for that. We're thankful to the Lord for you. You keep this ministry going. We cannot, like we were talking about evangelism in the last segment, we can't do this in our own strength.

So we very much appreciate your support of this media radio ministry. Finally, in this last segment today, let's talk about some stories and worldview in the news. You know, moral confusion and corruption is the canary in the coal mine.

It's the evidence of societal corruption on a larger scale, as people who are lost or shaking their fist at God. And when we see more and more stories like this in the news, it just reinforces that particular point. I want to just focus on two stories here in the final segment of the day. The first is, they're both on the issue of transgenderism. The first is a story that the Daily Wire put out entitled, Court Rules That a Mom in Texas Can Transition Her Son into a Girl Against His Father's Wishes. Now, this is truly a troubling story.

There's kind of a good news ending to it. I'll get to that in a second, but just let me read what was taking place earlier this week. Anthropologists in the future, this writer from the Daily Wire writes, will spend a lot of time discussing and debating the question of when exactly the once great American civilization went insane, why it happened, and how. What I do know is that this case will be viewed as a seminal moment in our collective plunge into madness. It will be seen as, at least from a legal standpoint, the point of no return.

The crossing of some kind of terrible Rubicon. I refer to the story of seven-year-old James Younger, whose father, Jeff Younger, has been trying to save him from a forced gender, quote, transition. Jeff, the father, has been locked in a bitter court battle with his ex-wife, Ann Georgioulas. Despite being a medical professional, a pediatrician, Ann Georgioulas, who presumably understands basic facts about human biology and child psychology, Georgioulas got it into her apparently deranged mind that her son, James, is really a girl. As the Texan previously reported, the factors that convinced Georgioulas that her son is really a daughter include his affinity to the movie Frozen and his request to get a girl toy from McDonald's. She also says he started expressing a wish to dress in girls' clothing. But the father, Jeff, recently explained in an interview that if James ever had any desire to wear dresses, it's only because his mother started putting him in dresses and painting his nails when he was just three years old.

He claims that she used several other methods of manipulation, including locking the boy in his room and telling him that, quote, the monsters only eat boys, unquote. Jeff speculates that Georgioulas, the mother, would withhold affection from James if he did not act like a girl. The last paragraph here, the court case revolved around Jeff's effort to rescue his sons, James and his twin brother, from the abuse of this mother.

However, the decision was passed down yesterday and the court ruled against the father. Virtually all control over James and his brother have now been handed to the mother named Ann Georgioulas. She is free to continue his social transition into a girl, a process already well underway as he goes by the name Luna and poses as a girl at his mother's house and at school. Eventually, the mother can and presumably will start James on drugs to chemically castrate him.

There is nothing his father can do to stop it, short of, quote, kidnapping the boy and fleeing the country. Just, I mean, just an unbelievable situation of a mother basically forcing a child, a seven-year-old child, into being the gender, the sex opposite that God gave him at birth. Well, as I mentioned, there is some good news to the story later in the week from LifeSite News that the judge presiding over the case of Jeffrey Younger, the father, who is trying to protect his seven-year-old son James from chemical castration via a gender, quote, transition, ruled today, thankfully, that the parents will have joint conservatorship over James, which includes making joint medical decisions for the child.

Judge Kim Cooks of the 255th District also put a gag on her on both parents so that they cannot speak to the press about the case and decide that the father is not required to pay attorney's fees, but the judge's decision means that the Save James website will have to be shut down. Now, this is just truly, I mean, that a judge could come to this decision, not the last judge, but the former judge, that the father would have no say in the mother wanting to transition, so to speak, her son into a girl is just complete God-rejecting, fist-in-the-face-of-God lunacy. Now, like homosexuality, transgenderism rejects God's design. But if you think about it, transgenderism is actually a deeper perversity, that's what the Bible calls these things, than homosexuality because transgenderism so often involves children. Now, homosexuality can as well, with adult homosexuals grooming or going after children, but it seems in so many stories that transgenderism involves children, whether from the drag queen story hour, it's always about children, grooming them to be something that God did not design them.

It's adults making decisions for children that have these lifelong consequences, these chemical castrations and mutilation, it's just, it's sick. The Bible says in Genesis chapter 1, God said, Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the cattle, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. This is the key verse. God created man in his own image. In the image of God, he created him, here's the key phrase, male and female, he created them.

It says in Psalm 139, he weaves us in our mother's womb. God designs what our gender is to be, and we should not reject that, we should embrace that. And if we have feelings otherwise about what we think we are, we should embrace what God made us.

We should be reminded of the truth of what God made us, and replace the temptation to be something we're not, with the truth of what actually God made us. So this story fortunately ended, I guess, from a legal standpoint better, but you can imagine the sort of tension and conflict this particular family is going to have going forward. So you remember to pray for this family, and that this innocent child isn't going to be scarred and marred for life. By the mother who was clearly in a situation where she's rejected all that God has designed for her, and for her child.

Wanted to get to another one on a transgender athlete, a male who now believes he is a female, just won the World Masters Sprint title in the female division, and how this is changing, it's going to change women's sports drastically, but we don't have time for that today. Thank you for joining us today, though, on The Christian Worldview. We do live in a changing and challenging world, where we engage in conversations with non-believers, and need to know how to navigate those. And when we do navigate those, we can be confident that the truth is on our side. The biblical worldview is the truthful one. So until next weekend everyone, think biblically, and live accordingly. The Christian Worldview is a weekly one-hour radio program that is furnished by the Overcomer Foundation, and is supported by listeners and sponsors. Request one of our current resources with your donation of any amount. Go to thechristianworldview.org, or call us toll-free at 1-888-646-2233, or write to us at Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota, 55331. That's Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota, 55331. Thanks for listening to The Christian Worldview. Until next time, think biblically, and live accordingly.