When to Obey God over Government

When to obey God over government. That is a topic we'll discuss today right here on the Christian Worldview Radio Program where the mission is to sharpen the biblical worldview of Christians and to share the good news that all people can be reconciled to God through faith in Jesus Christ.

Our website is thechristianworldview.org. In California, Governor Gavin Newsom has mandated strict parameters on indoor church services with regard to physical distancing and even singing, which would cause a large church like Grace Community Church in Los Angeles with over 5000 members and attenders each week to only be able to serve a fraction of their congregants. John MacArthur is the well-known pastor of Grace Community Church.

He's been there for 50 years. He and their 50 elders made national news recently with their decision to hold indoor worship services despite the California governmental orders. And so this weekend on the Christian Worldview, Phil Johnson, who's an elder at Grace Community Church and the host of the Grace to You Radio broadcast, joins us to explain how to apply the biblical command to obey governing authorities from Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2 with another biblical command for Christians in Hebrews 10 to not forsake the assembling together of ourselves as believers.

Basically, when to obey God over government. Let's get to the first segment of that interview. Phil, thank you for taking the time to come on the Christian Worldview today. Let's go back several months, back to early March when the Shepherds Conference was taking place at Grace Community Church. And on Sunday, March 8, I was there for the Sunday service.

By the time I came home that day, back to Minnesota, and then next week, the next Sunday, everything had been closed down, including Grace Church. So take us just behind the scenes briefly of what has been going on with the elders and the discussions taking place over the last, I guess it's nearly six months now, since the COVID shutdown right after the Shepherds Conference. Yeah, and this was my experience in March, just before the Shepherds Conference, I believe it was. They had the National Religious Broadcasters Convention in Nashville, and I was at that.

And of course, that draws thousands of people from all over the world. And as I recall, there was already quite a bit of discussion about the dangers of the coronavirus. It was spreading in places, and it was one of the things you were a little bit concerned about when you're in a massive crowd like that with people from hundreds of countries around the world. I flew from here to Nashville, was there for that convention, flew back, then we had the Shepherds Conference.

Again, thousands of guys from dozens of countries around the world. We were thinking about it, we were cautious about it. You may remember that during the Shepherds Conference, there was hand cleanser everywhere. People weren't wearing masks yet, but a lot of pastors were cautious about handshakes and hugs and that kind of thing. But it didn't really put a dent in the Shepherds Conference.

It seemed like everything went on as usual. The week after Shepherds Conference, I had a speaking engagement on the East Coast, flew there and back. So again, four flights across the country when the virus was at its peak, and all of that was in my mind.

But as soon as I got back from the East Coast, shortly after Shepherds Conference, then everything went into lockdown. Of course, at first, you remember the slogan, 15 days to flatten the curve. The idea was if we can flatten the curve, meaning slow down the rate of infection so that we don't see hospital and emergency rooms overwhelmed, then we'll be able to deal with this virus.

So the idea was just flatten the curve. Well, the curve was flattened, but the quarantine never ended. And that went on for weeks. And everybody at Grace Church is missing the services, missing our fellowship, but things just didn't seem right. So by mid-June or so, we were beginning to just sort of let people come back without making a big announcement about it, without announcing that we're not going to enforce all the social distancing rules or whatever.

People just began to filter back to Grace Church so that by mid-July, every Sunday, there were hundreds of people in the auditorium. And then the governor said, it's OK, we can reopen a little. And California started to open just slightly. And it seemed it was barely open and church was barely beginning to resume. And the governor cracked down again and said, no, we're going to put the whole state back under lockdown indefinitely. So there's no end point.

There's no measurable goal. There's no there's just no way to see light at the end of the quarantine tunnel. And then they announced that the Rose Parade January 1st is canceled this year.

So they're looking that far ahead and intending to keep the quarantine in place until then. And our elders got together and said, we just cannot consent to that. Our people need fellowship. Our church needs to live its life. And so we're at the point where we are today where we're just having normal Sunday services.

It's not really normal because of the circumstances. We've got a big tent in the parking lot. So if people want to socially distance, if they want to wear masks or whatever, everybody's free to do that according to whatever your conscience allows. But the worship center has been packed standing room only for several weeks now.

John MacArthur's preaching. We have the music. Everything is as normal. And I think the state officials aren't particularly happy about that.

They aren't. We'll get into that today in the program. Phil Johnson with us today on The Christian Real View. He's an elder at Grace Community Church in Los Angeles where John MacArthur pastors. He's also the executive director and host of the Grace to You radio broadcast. Just recently in the last, I'd say about two weeks, the elders of Grace Community Church came out with a statement on the fact that they're going to be reopening and officially reopening, I should say. The title of that statement was Christ, not Caesar is head of the church.

I just want to read the first paragraph of that. It says Christ is Lord of all. He is the one true head of the church.

He is also king of kings, sovereign over every authority. Grace Community Church has always stood immovably on those biblical principles. As his people, we are subject to his will and commands as revealed in scripture. Therefore, we cannot and will not acquiesce to a government-imposed moratorium on our weekly congregational worship or other regular corporate gatherings.

Compliance will be disobedience to our Lord's clear commands. And then Phil, you followed this up over the summer with various blog posts on your blog, teampyro.blogspot.com, where you said the elders of Grace Church decided to follow the recommended procedures set forth in the original government order. Not because we believe the state has a right to tell churches when, whether, and how to worship. To be clear, we believe that the original orders were just as much as an illegitimate intrusion of state authority into ecclesiastical matters as we believe it is now.

However, because we could not possibly have known the true severity of the virus as you were just explaining, and because we care about people as our Lord did, we believe guarding public health against serious contagions is a rightful function of Christians as well as civil government. The question is, it seemed to me that a few months after the lockdown that Pastor McCarthy had mentioned something that we want to comply with government and so forth, what went into the major change to all of us in saying, no, no further now, this is the end, this is unreasonable, this is against what we are convicted by scripture to do, government has exceeded even their constitutional authority. What went into that decision? Because it went from being, yeah, well, people can come back on their own to now it's, we're having church.

Yeah, and I think it was not one thing, but a series of things. We have 50 elders, so they didn't all come to this conclusion all at once. Various ones of us began to ask questions and rethink the issues over different things. And for me, it was when the governor reinstituted the quarantine and basically said, this is indefinite. We will decide when the state gets to open up. We will decide when churches get to meet again. And I had said from the beginning, when we started the quarantine, look, I'm okay with 15 days to flatten the curve. You do the math on that, and at most we might miss three Sundays. And then it was extended because they felt the curve wasn't flattened enough.

And then it dragged out to three months. And I began to think, you know, at some point, if this just becomes a never-ending quarantine, we come face to face with Hebrews 10.25, don't forsake the assembling of yourselves together. That's a command. And I have to weigh the weight of that command against the command in Romans 13, which says, be subject to the powers that be.

Which one applies in the circumstances? And I think for me, it was when the governor basically said, this is indefinite. And it will let you know someday that you might be able to meet again. And also it threatens to become just a perpetual thing where they're going to require, if you go to church or gather in any kind of gathering like that, especially if you're singing, you have to wear masks. And the thought of the people of God meeting together, all masked up, it's just an odious thought to me, especially when you have what really seems to amount to a tyrant making arbitrary and whimsical rules about this for which there is no clear science. And it's a disputed issue. And so it's not Romans 13, but Romans 14 that applies to disputed issues, debatable things.

What do you do there? Well, every person has to obey his own conscience. So that's ultimately what we decided to do at Grace Church.

We're not forcing on anyone any new rules. If they want to wear a mask and socially distance, there are plenty of opportunities for them to do that and still participate in our worship services. We have places all over the campus where they can sit and have fellowship with other people and see and hear the sermon and still maintain social distance. But the fact is, the vast majority of our people just want to be in the service with their fellow believers and sing and praise the Lord and be taught from God's word the way we always have. This is not the first time we've been exposed to viruses. I've been exposed to viruses all my life. And it's true that the church is a place, and always has been, where viruses, colds, the flu gets spread.

But that's never stopped us from coming to church and praising the Lord before. What we're seeing is just a vast overreaction to what seemed like a great threat at the beginning. You remember at the beginning, you had images of bodies stacked in the street like cord would, just from the projections of how many people were going to die in this thing. The truth is, it has not lived up to those dire predictions. And it's bad.

If you're an elderly person particularly, and you get this virus, it is a virus that, particularly for people over 80, it's difficult for people to survive, and it can leave lasting effects. But are we going to start shutting down church every time there's a threat of a disease or the flu? That's a great concern of ours.

I don't want to see it become a pattern that every flu season we shut down church for four months, or however long. Phil Johnson is our guest today here on The Christian Worldview, talking about when to obey God over government. Lots of things for you to read in a preview for today on thechristianworldview.org.

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If you're a golfer, maybe you know some golfers who enjoy being a part of this. It's really a fundraiser for the Christian Worldview and a time of fellowship as well. Go to thechristianworldview.org to find out more. Our topic today is when to obey God over government. Phil Johnson, an elder at Grace Community Church in Los Angeles, where John MacArthur pastored, they've been in the news nationally on the decision to reopen. So let's get back to the second segment of that interview. One of the pushbacks that I've heard him receive, whether in the news stations or just from other Christians writing about the reopening of Grace, because this has made national news that Grace has reopened against the mandates, the orders of California Governor Gavin Newsom. And still don't know how that's going to shake out.

I know there have been threats of fines and arrests and so forth. We'll get into that in a little bit. How do you respond to the notion of Christians out there who will say, well, what's the point of this? If you're risking people's health, we can do church online nowadays. People can just watch church from home. And the question is, is watching church from your home with your family still church, Phil?

No, no, it isn't. And in fact, again, back to Hebrews 10.25, it talks about the gathering of yourselves together for the purpose of mutual encouragement and praise and worship. You know, congregational worship has been essential to the people of God all the way back into the Old Testament. And to give that up and have everybody meet separately or not meet, but stay separately in their in their homes and watch a sermon online, that's not a substitute for the church. It might have worked as a temporary substitute during a normal quarantine, but when the government is talking about keeping the church shut down for the better part of a year, it seems to me the natural thing for a Christian who really loves the Lord and understands the necessity of our fellowship and the role that the church is designed to have. I don't see how any Christian can sit by passively and say, well, it's OK, we can live with this. The other pushback we get, David, is from people who say, well, fine, neat, but just obey all of the restrictions that have put in place. I'm writing a blog post right now that should be on my blog pretty soon, answering pretty extensively why that's a problem for us, why you can't do that. We've got this massive tent in the middle of our parking lot and people look at that and say, well, you guys could just meet out there.

The truth is, if you set up the chairs so that everything is properly socially distanced, so nobody is closer than six feet from anyone else or anyone outside their family, you could at most fit 400 to 450 people in there. That's not even a tenth of our congregation. So we can't do that. It changes the way we do church. And when the governor is saying, no, you shouldn't even sing and everybody should be masked, he's changing the way we worship. He's changing the worship service in a way that it really isn't Caesar's role to dictate. It isn't the governor of California's right to restrict us from our worship or tell us how we ought to worship.

That is built into the very first sentence of the Bill of Rights. Again, Phil Johnson with us today on the Christian Real View, an elder at Grace Community Church, also the executive director and host of Grace to You. I want to read one more thing from your recent blog post, Phil. You said, speaking for myself alone, I'll acknowledge that, yes, my thinking on the question of the COVID-19 quarantine in Romans 13 has changed somewhat or at least been refined, illuminated, qualified and enriched. I've been forced by circumstances to rethink and amplify my answers carefully because of the government's relentless attempts to keep churches closed, despite the fact that months have passed without the apocalyptic quotas of death and disease that were originally predicted. I know that you and John MacArthur have always taken a position of respect for Romans 13.

You have been very, I think, conservative on that particular position. So tell us how your understanding or interpretation of Romans 13 has changed throughout this process. And maybe part two of that question is, I don't remember exactly what what Pastor MacArthur said many years ago, but when asked about the Revolutionary War, was that then the wrong thing to do at the time to rebel against the British government and so forth? And pastors were divided at that issue in that particular time. Maybe you could kind of compare and contrast that particular time and how that relates, if it is even comparable to what's taking place now in the church.

Yeah, it's a good analogy, actually. But let me say first, it's not that my interpretation of Romans 13 has changed. And I still take a very conservative view towards that. I don't think Christians should be known for boycotts and protests and public demonstrations and things like that. And I think what Paul is saying in Romans 13, what Peter says in 1 Peter 2, is basically, look, that we need to strive to be good citizens and not to be known as people who are defiant of authority.

And in general, that's the case. What's changed in my thinking here is how and whether Romans 13 outweighs Hebrews 10.25 in a situation like we face right now. So the elder statement actually goes into great detail about what I would say are the refinements in my understanding of all of this. By saying this, essentially, there are different realms of authority that have been established by God. You have the family, you have the government, and you have the church. And Caesar is head of the government.

When I say Caesar, sometimes people say, well, there hasn't been a Caesar forever. I'm talking about the United States with the Constitution, but it doesn't end there. The Constitution establishes various realms of authority inside the government so that lawmakers and all the way down to policemen who enforce the law are in that chain of command that Scripture commands us to be obedient to. But their realm of authority is legitimate governmental issues. The church is a whole different realm, and Christ is the head of the church.

He's actually Lord over even the government. So Christ's authority actually surpasses any civic ruler's authority. And you see that play out in Scripture in Acts 4 where the apostles say, look, ultimately we have to obey God rather than men. When the commandments of men contradict the commandments of God, we have to obey God because he is Lord over even the secular realm. So how does that apply in these circumstances?

That's where my thinking has changed. And when I see the governor making rules like, you shouldn't sing in church. Don't sing, you can't sing, you can't stand next to each other. You have to socially distance, meaning you can't even greet one another with a holy kiss or even a holy handshake because you've got to be six feet apart. Now all of a sudden the government's commands impinge on how and where and even whether we should worship and become a contradiction to some of the clear commands we have in Scripture. And in that case, we have to obey God rather than men. And so what's changed in my thinking is the question of whether Romans 13 is what applies in these circumstances or Acts 4.

We have to obey God rather than men. I love the Revolutionary War analogy, or maybe it's not comparable. What do you think about that then? It's comparable in this sense.

Both of those are complex questions, and I get that. I think the question of the church's responsibility in the quarantine is complex enough that we've said, even in the elder's statement, that really the decision on how far to go with the quarantine and how we worship and all that, those are decisions that belong to the realm of the church and not the realm of the secular government. We're not saying every church needs to do exactly as we have done. What we're saying is the elders of the church are responsible to make those decisions, not the governor of the state. So that's been our argument, and realizing that different churches, different geographical regions, different circumstances may require a different response than we've taken.

But here in California, where the rules are extremely draconian and the governor's behavior has been, I think it's fair to say, tyrannical, we've taken the route we've taken without trying to impose that on the conscience of other elders in other churches. The Revolutionary War was similarly complex. I think a lot depended on whether you supported the Revolution or not in those days, where you lived.

Massachusetts, for example, was a colony that had been established by a charter from the king that gave them a certain amount of autonomy and guaranteed that autonomy. And so when a generation or two later, the king began to tax them and send representatives of his army there, they saw that, I think rightfully so, as a foreign invasion. And a lot of Christians during the Revolution justified their involvement in the Revolution that way. It's a totally different era, but there is some relation in the questions because it was a Romans 13 issue back then as well for Christians to consider. And I have a feeling we're going to have to make a lot more of these with the direction our country is coming as to when we obey God over obeying men. Phil Johnson with us today here on The Christian Real View.

Gavin Ortlund, who's another pastor in California, he wrote, It seems to me that the current situation is more complicated than John MacArthur's perspective allows. To my mind, there are at least four biblical values that should inform our decision-making in this situation. And he lists the importance of worship, love for neighbor, obedience to government, maintaining a good witness. And he says, What concerns me about defying the state order right now is that it seems to prioritize, one, the importance of worship at the expense of numbers two, three, and four. Love for neighbor, obedience to government, and maintaining a good witness.

This particular charge has been brought up often. You know, if Christians really want to love our neighbor, the best way to love our neighbor is to not gather together and to get each other sick. So when we interact with them, we get them sick. How do you respond to that particular criticism coming mainly from, I think, the Christian community to say, Let's not get together because we want to love our neighbor better? That will be answered by Phil Johnson right after this second break of the day here on The Christian Real View radio program. That's an important one.

You're hearing it all the time. We've got to love our neighbor, so therefore, let's not go back to church. More coming up on The Christian Real View right after this.

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Your e-mail and mailing address will never be shared, and you can unsubscribe at any time. Call 1-888-646-2233 or visit thechristianworldview.org. To think biblically and live accordingly. That is the aim of The Christian World View as we discuss these topics which we Christians encounter all the time in our society. And that's really important on this particular one, when to obey God over government.

We do want to think biblically and then apply it out, live accordingly. And so Phil Johnson is our guest today here on The Christian World View. He's the elder at Grace Community Church where Pastor John MacArthur is the senior pastor for the last 50 years. They have 50 elders there, actually. They've been to the church several times. Of course, the shepherds conference is held there each spring where men from all over the world, up to I think 4,000 or 5,000 men, come to that particular conference. So I was there this year right before it closed down, so it was sort of an interesting and unique time when everything was changing in the country. And so we're discussing the fact that all over the country there's been these mandates by governmental authorities to shut down churches and then partial re-openings, phased re-openings. What you can do, you have to stay this far apart, you can only have 25% capacity, you can't sing, you can't have people sing in front, you have to wear a mask. And eventually, Grace Community Church and its elders decided no further here.

This is unreasonable. The government does not have direct authority over how a church service is to be conducted and so forth. And they were happy to comply at the beginning because the virus extent of it wasn't really known. But now there's an indefinite shutdown period.

As Phil Johnson mentioned, they canceled the, I think it was the Rose Bowl parade or whenever that takes place in California, early January. So they looked at the two commands of scripture from Hebrews 10, forsake not the assembling of yourselves together, versus the commands in Romans 13 to honor and obey governmental authorities. And decisions need to be made. And they came down on the decision of obeying God over government in this particular instance. Now we have some articles, some columns on the Christianrealview.org right now that we really encourage you to read regarding this. There is that statement there from the Grace Community Church elders that is very, very good and specific that I would highly encourage you to read. The title is Christ, not Caesar is Head of the Church.

And then also Phil Johnson, our guest today, has his own blog, and we have that link there as well, too. Questions about the Grace Community Church elders statement. Then we have a counterpoint column as well by the Nine Marks Ministry. You can read that as well, but those would be really sharp in your biblical worldview on this particular issue as you think about this because I can see more of it's going to be coming in our increasingly secular America. This is the way things are going to go. Okay, let's get back to Phil Johnson as he was going to answer a question about loving neighbor.

This particular charge has been brought up often. You know, if Christians really want to love our neighbor, the best way to love our neighbor is to not gather together and to get each other sick so when we interact with them we get them sick. How do you respond to that particular criticism coming mainly from, I think, the Christian community to say, let's not get together because we want to love our neighbor better?

The short answer is this. I think it's a very short-sighted definition of what it means to love your neighbor, to say you can only show your neighbor love by suspending your public worship services. I think neglect is what has been one of the most damaging and hurtful effects of this long quarantine and that is there are lots of people who have been sick or died not from the virus but from other causes who've died in seclusion in nursing homes and hospitals because their families weren't even permitted to visit them while they were dying and when they died you couldn't have a funeral because you couldn't have a public gathering.

There are thousands of stories like that across the country from people who have been hurt more by the quarantine than they have by the virus. What about love for them as well? What about love for people whose fears have been stoked by the media and the government and the answer to those fears is the preaching of the gospel and that's the church's job and yet the church is being kept from being the church by draconian governmental decrees.

Love for my neighbor takes all of those things into account. The fact is we've been meeting at Grace Church now for more than eight weeks. There hasn't been a single outbreak of the virus. You were there at the Shepherd's Conference. There was one man who was at the Shepherd's Conference who died from COVID-19. He was an elderly man who apparently, as they've traced it, contracted the virus before he came to the conference. We had it while he was here. He caught it from others in his family and then died shortly after, sadly.

But he was here and all over the conference. I hugged him and greeted him and I don't think there's any known case of anyone who caught the virus from him. We know there were people at the conference who were exposed to the virus but no outbreak of serious sickness or death as a result. And then we've met eight weeks at Grace Church and just none of the dire consequences that we keep hearing are possible. Is it possible that eventually there'll be people at Grace Church who get the virus and get sick?

Yeah. But that's been possible with every virus that's ever come along. The COVID-19 thing, especially if you're younger than I am, I'm 67, anybody younger than I am really doesn't face a serious risk of death from this virus. There are people younger who have died from it.

But it isn't like the sort of Spanish flu epidemic was 100 years ago. It isn't even in that realm. When you ask what is the Church's responsibility in the midst of this, it's the Church that should be ministering to people who are living in fear and troubled about the future and troubled about eternity, and yet the Church is forbidden to meet together.

That is not a command I can submit to. I'm honoring Christ and truly loving my neighbor. I've said before, anyone who thinks that the second great commandment, love your neighbor as yourself, is completely fulfilled because you're wearing a mask and socially distancing, I don't think you really understand the implications of that commandment. Phil Johnson with us today on the Christian Real View.

Last question for you, Phil. Bringing it up to the present and Grace Community Church's interaction with the governing authorities in California, we know that the county or the state has written threatening letters with threat of fines or arrest if they persist in defiance of the government order. Are you free to say whether the county or state is doing anything?

Usually government doesn't make orders that they're not prepared to enforce. Is there something like that going on, and if that takes place, is Grace Church prepared to push back to sue the county or the state if they take action against the Church based on the state's or the county's infringement upon the First Amendment freedom of religion? Yes, actually the Church did file a lawsuit against the governor and all that late this week, so that will be in the news. You can read about it. It's our attempt to sort of get out in front of this before they intervene and frog march John MacArthur away in handcuffs or something like that.

I don't really think any of that's going to happen. Yes, they've talked about cutting off water and power in general to businesses or organizations that violate the terms of the quarantine, but as far as I know, the government hasn't actually done that. There's a smaller church not far from here in Ventura County where they've actually issued restraining orders and made threats that they're going to arrest the pastor and all that, but the Church met last Sunday and it was pretty much uneventful. There were some demonstrators there with signs scolding the Church for having their church services, and there were representatives of the Sheriff's Department there to maintain order, but they said they had no intention of citing anyone or arresting anyone for worshipping. I think that's such a bad look for the government to literally send in armed officers to shut down a church that it's hard for me to imagine that happening.

So right now I see it as just threats, but to make sure, yes, we are filing a lawsuit to keep the government from making those kinds of threats directly against Grace Church. We're going to continue worshipping. Well, I think Grace Church is in very, very good legal and biblical standing for what decision you all have made, and we applaud you for it. We are encouraged by it, and we wish all of God's best and grace to you, Phil, and Grace Community Church. We just thank you for coming on the Christian Real View today. Thank you, David.

It's always good to talk to you. Okay, that was Phil Johnson, everyone, elder at Grace Church Community Church in Los Angeles. By the way, his website where he blogs is teampyro, as in pyromaniac, teampyro.blogspot.com. Now, this interview was done on Thursday, just two days ago, and since then there's actually been an update to that particular lawsuit. That lawsuit hadn't even been known, really.

I didn't even know it was taking place when I asked him that question. It just apparently had just been filed, and already there has been some sort of agreement or some sort of decision. Jenna Ellis is the attorney for Grace Community Church. And by the way, she's also President Trump's attorney.

And I was just reading on her Twitter page her main tweet, her pinned tweet, where they put like one featured tweet on her page that says, I'm going on record now. This is Jenna Ellis, the one who's representing President Trump, who's also representing Grace Community Church in this particular case. If they try to cancel Christianity, if they try to force me to apologize or recant my faith, I will not bend. I will not waver.

I will not break. On Christ, the solid rock I stand, and I'm proud to be an American. That's the attorney for Grace Community Church. And that's also President Trump's attorney as well. Obviously, there are different cases and so forth that she represents them in different ways, but that's a pretty strong statement right there on her Twitter page. Anyway, she tweeted yesterday that saying, there's a historic win today for John MacArthur and Grace Community Church.

The judge allows indoor services with singing and no attendance cap. Church agrees to adhere to mask and social distancing until full hearing. OK, that's the tweet. That is the update. I'm not sure what that means.

Masking and social distancing. But that's all the update we have for now. More after this on The Christian Worldview. If you need help navigating the online podcast realm, just give us a call toll free. Or follow the links on the home page of theChristianworldview.org because when believers have a sharper biblical worldview and non-believers come to saving faith, lives and families are changed for the glory of God.

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We very much appreciate your support and encouragement. All right, so in the last segment today, just some summary thoughts on this issue of when to obey God over government. You know, the state, the government, Caesar you could say, always has and always will try to restrict or eliminate Christianity because it offends them, it convicts them and they don't want it around them. So let's not be shocked at that. This is nothing new. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego back in Scripture. Nebuchadnezzar was trying to make them bow down to an idol.

And that story is so powerful. We must obey God rather than you. Even if we die, we will not bow down to your idol. I read that sometime in Daniel. Daniel himself, he was told not to pray.

See again, they're trying to eliminate, it offends them, it convicts them, so let's get rid of this Daniel. They had an injunction against praying to any other God but Nebuchadnezzar for 30 days, I think it was, and Daniel of course chose not to pray. Thrown in the lion's den, God miraculously saved him. Fast forward, many other examples in the Old Testament. Fast forward to the New Testament, Peter and Paul and the apostles. Don't preach in this name of Christ. We must obey God rather than men was their response. Even today in China, North Korea, Islamic countries, and now even within the U.S. with restrictions on churches gathering. There's always street preachers are always the canaries in the coal mine with Christian liberty in a society. You can see they're always pushed back against them. People don't like the public proclamation of the word of God on the sidewalk, and so there's always regulations.

So watch what happens with them. That's always an important indicator of where our society is. Posts on social media are restricted when people say things about their Christian faith. Educating your children, the government tries to get involved and restrict that. Or in your business, if you choose not, if you're a Christian owner of a business who makes wedding cakes, you've seen things like that take place.

If you're a photographer, you don't want to service. You don't want to use your artistic skills to service an event that you know from Scripture is inherently sinful and be a part of that. You are going to be persecuted by government. You need to obey God rather than men. Now, that being said, Christians should do everything to honor and obey civil authorities per Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2. And we should actually pray for them.

We should not immediately flip the switch to go in immediate defiant mode at all. As a matter of fact, we should try to suggest alternatives to mandates that violate Scripture and our conscience. But ultimately, when God commands something clearly in Scripture to preach the Gospel, to assemble together in fellowship and church, when God commands something clearly, what government is ordering to stop, the answer is simple and clear. But maybe hard, we must obey God rather than men, no matter the consequences. So take this example of assembling together as a church. Here's what Hebrews 10 says.

Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, verse 25, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the day drawing near. The word for church, ekklesia, is actually assemble. It's not watching church online. There's an assembling together of believers. That's what church is about for the preaching of the word, for fellowship, for breaking a bread or communion, and prayer, the four fundamentals of the church.

You can't do those things online. Now, if you're not able to go to church, if you're in a situation where you're ill or elderly, or there is, like Phil Johnson mentioned, if there's a terrible outbreak, there's nothing wrong with missing churches for a few weeks and watching online. But this is not a viable alternative to church for week after week, month after month, going forward. And John MacArthur wrote in that statement that the elders put out, it has never been the prerogative of civil government to order, modify, forbid, or mandate worship when, how, and how often the church worships is not the subject, is not subject to Caesar. Caesar himself is subject to God. Jesus affirmed that principle when he told Pilate, you would have no authority over me unless it had been given to you from above because Christ is head of the church, ecclesiastical matters pertain to his kingdom, not Caesar's. And so we have this example in Acts 4 and then again in Acts 5 where the apostles were told by the Sadducees, the religious leaders of all people, the authorities in their realm, we gave you strict authority orders not to continue teaching in his name and yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man, Jesus' blood upon us.

What was the response of Peter and the apostles? We must obey God rather than men. We will continue to preach the word. That is a command of God.

So to be sure, it's not always so cut and dried. Street preachers deal with this all the time. Do they obey the laws that don't allow amplification, that restrict passing out literature, that to preach from a designated, quote, safe space that aways away, established away from all the people they're trying to reach? It certainly takes wise understanding of Scripture to know how to apply the balance between Romans 13 and we must obey God rather than men in Acts 4 and 5. It takes prayer and it takes a conviction of conscience, by the way.

Phil Johnson alluded to this a couple times today. What might be wrong for one Christian may be right for another, like with going back to church. This isn't a universal mandate that every church must meet tomorrow and be back.

There might be extenuating circumstances that the elders of these churches need to come to consensus upon. We give grace to Christians coming down on different sides of an issue, like wearing a mask or not wearing a mask. We give grace to those who want to or those who don't want to.

It puts the freedom, the liberty back into the hands of the person, and I think that's a very good thing. So Grace Church is not mandating that all return to church, but they are pursuing their calling to assemble together for those who want to return. They're also offering outdoor spaces and you can wear a mask if you want and so forth, but they are not bowing to the unreasonable and unbiblical commands by the state to not assemble, to not sing, to not gather inside for those who want to.

Now those have been changed a little bit since yesterday, but I think that's because John MacArthur and the elders have taken a stand. And I believe strongly that they've done the right thing in this particular instance. So let's pray for them.

Let's pray for other pastors and churches around the country to be able to stand strong and stand with biblical conviction in this area where there's been a squeeze, a big squeeze on Christians. All in the excuse of, well, we've got to love our neighbor. When that's usually said, that usually means, Christians, you need to compromise to some degree. So watch out for that particular rationale.

That is true. We are to love our neighbor, but watch out that that's not being done at the expense of loving God. Thank you for listening to the Christian Royal View today. We do live in a changing and challenging America.

Wow. But there is one thing we can always trust in and count on. The Bible says Jesus Christ and His word, they're the same yesterday, today and forever.

And we will obey God rather than men. Call toll free at one triple eight six four six twenty two thirty three. The Christian World View is a weekly one hour radio program that is furnished by the Overcomer Foundation and is supported by listeners and sponsors. Request one of our current resources with your donation of any amount. Go to the Christian World View dot org or call us toll free at one triple eight six four six twenty two thirty three or write to us at Box four zero one Excelsior, Minnesota, five five three three one. That's Box four zero one Excelsior, Minnesota, five five three three one. Thanks for listening to the Christian World View. Until next time, think biblically and live accordingly.