Bubba is celebrating 12 years as the DoA at UNC!

Right there is Bubba Cunningham, the athletic director at the University of North Carolina. 12 years. Happy anniversary. I don't know when the anniversary date was.

12 years in Chapel Hill. You owe me a couple of dollars. Do I?

I know you bet the under on that. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Look, the first time, our first conversation we were talking about, I think we were talking about your brother who does like all sorts of adventure reality TVs, right? Look, we've had all sorts of really cool conversations and some, I remember some that maybe weren't so friendly, although not with between you and I. You need to have my brother on.

He's way more entertaining than I am. You would really enjoy spending time with my brother. Well, we can do that.

We're going to talk about this guy at some point during this conversation today. First, congratulations on being named as chairman of not this year, but next year's men's basketball committee, vice chair this year. Would you rather be the chairman of the basketball committee or the football committee? Well, Boo has that job. You know, Nina did women's basketball. Boo's got football, so I figured I better do something.

Otherwise, I'm just falling behind and fierce here in the triangle. It's funny because you mentioned Boo. Last year when we, or this might be longer than this now, when we found out that he would be the chairman of the football committee, based on those ridiculous shows they do on Tuesday nights halfway through the college football season, I told him, I said, you better get your lying face on. You got to make stuff up on that show to make it sound like any of this really matters. All those shows to me don't matter.

We sort of have that for basketball, but it's not as intense. You don't have to lie until the end. Right.

There's only one. There's a 16 reveal, which is like two or three weeks before. That's the one time you have to do that. But other than that, and then you're just saying, hey, if we're to end today, this is what it looks like. Right, exactly. And that's, but the football on people get awfully mad about that. All right, Bubba Cunningham, Bubba Cunningham, a lot has changed in the dozen years.

This is where, this is the serious part of our conversation. The big 10 was in just two time zones when you got here. They're about to be in three. I mean, I guess there's flyover country.

They don't touch the mountain time zone yet, but UCLA and USC are showing up next year. Maryland was an ACC member and the students, the athletes, were not allowed to earn a dime based on who they were as athletes in college. A lot has changed in a dozen years. What happened?

Well, that's an easy question. You know, it's been amazing to really see the changes in college athletics over the last 30 years and particularly the last 12. You know, I think a lot of it is, quite frankly, reacting to different forms of government. You know, we've been told by the courts that we're in violation of antitrust.

We've had legislatures, state legislatures, and we're trying to get the federal legislature to do something about it. I still think that, you know, we need to take as much control in our own hands as we can. We've had a transition of leadership at the NCAA level, so we've had different philosophical ideas of what we should or shouldn't be doing on a national level. And we're in a very turbulent time, but I do think that the new president of the NCAA, I think Charlie Baker, is absolutely fantastic. I think he's smart. I think he has been successful in anything he's ever done, and I think he'll bring that same acumen to the NCAA and to sport.

And under his leadership, I think we'll really define what our future looks like, and we'll get the support nationally through the courts and through the government that we need. Because everyone thinks college athletics is important, but we don't really know what's the best way to move forward. And we've been challenged in the courts in particular, and I think that's probably our biggest challenge as we go ahead. Oh yeah, the 9-0 opinion and the concurring opinion from Brett Kavanaugh, basically saying, I don't know how you guys have been able to do this legally for a long time in the Alston case. And this is probably almost rhetorical at this point, but has the college sports industry focused too much on money over the last dozen years? It's all a race to the bottom line at this point. Yeah, you know, and it's kind of just incrementally how we got there, you know, back in 1984, they said, you know, you're in violation of antitrust, but there's a public good to what you do.

Fast forward to 2021, and you're right, 9-0 with Kavanaugh coming in on top and saying, you're still in violation, there's no public good to what you're doing, and we're going to be more punitive. Well, then all of a sudden, everybody backed up and said, you know, gosh, for so many years, we thought we were doing the right thing. We're providing more scholarships, we're providing more health care, we're providing more academic services, we're providing more providing more meals, we're doing all those things for so many.

But, you know, the values of the country and the values of the individuals have changed over that period of time. We've had revenue sharing for 40 years. We generate as much as we can, spread it as far as we can. We have 800 kids, 100 play sports that generate more than we spend. So now they're saying, you know what, let's figure out a different way.

Those that generate it, I think they should get it. And so we're gonna have to figure out another way to fund the sports that don't generate any money. And that's the challenge that we have before us. So the commercial activity that skyrocketed in the last 30 years, it now is a redistribution of the money that's being generated in sport. And where does it go?

And how do we feed the mouths that are interested in being fed? Bubba Cunningham is joining us, North Carolina's director of athletics, going on year 13. I'm excited for you. I expect another, I want you to be here longer than I am here, sir.

And I want to get to the, I was going to call it the elephant in the room, but in this case, it is, it's kind of a white horse in the room. And that's what has happened in the last couple of days of Florida State. A lot of bluster coming from Tallahassee. And basically they have, it hasn't even been thinly veiled. They outright said it yesterday, that if revenue distribution doesn't drastically change within the ACC, they would have to explore leaving. So just when you hear that, and you've probably have heard some of that already through back channels, what are you, what do you say to that? Well, it's just, if they want to leave, then that's going to be their choice. But there are certain obligations that they do have.

We have an exit fee and we have a grant of rights. I believe that the ACC is a great league. It's been a great league for a long time. Their frustration about the money, everyone would like to have more money and everyone would like to win more, but we're in a, we're in an outstanding league. And last I checked, the ACC won nine national championships last year, more than any other league in the country. So we're doing something right.

Now, I don't think it takes, I don't think you have to have the most money to win the most games. And I think we've demonstrated that over the years. Now, again, I do think that they have decisions that they need to make. It may or may not have an impact on us, but again, what we're trying to do at Carolina is make the ACC the best it can possibly be. I think it's good for college athletics to have four, five, or even six conferences nationally. I think the consolidation is not good long-term. I think that the number of opportunities that we can offer, we need to stay strong and have as many opportunities for kids to play and get an education.

Those things haven't changed for me. Now, what they want to do and how they want to go about doing their business, that is their business, but it does have an impact on us. And quite frankly, I don't think it's good for our league for them to be out there barking like that.

And I'd rather see them, you know, be a good member of the league and support the league. And if they have to make a decision, then so be it. Pay for the exit fee, wait for your grant of rights that you've given. And then in 2036, when those rights return to you, do whatever you want.

Bubba Cunningham is joining us here on the Adam Gold Show. I'm going to get to comments you made a couple of weeks ago about grant of rights and the cost of all of this in a second. But but can you close your eyes? Because, look, when these things happen, when we got to Amelia Island now a month and a half ago and there were conversations about the Magnificent Seven, by the way, that term to me, I mean, I laughed out loud. Great movie, outstanding movie, but maybe not not a great acronym for, you know, seven schools that may or may not be trying to to leave the league. But could you close your eyes and see North Carolina in a in a conference not named the ACC? Yeah, you know, the ACC we've been in the AC since 1953.

It's been a great league. I don't know what five years, 10 years, 15 years looks like. I do think that the courts I do think that the legislation compensation, all of those things are going to impact what the future looks like. And then a lot of schools, a lot of individuals are going to have to make decisions about what their future looks like. So it's such a broad question that, yeah, it's you know, I don't see this configuration lasting in perpetuity.

So it'd be a safe bet to take the under on that. Okay, I just I just want to clarify this. So an ACC will exit can exist without North Carolina being in it?

Because that's, that's, I guess that is my question. If the ACC is a league, and it looks similar to what it does right now, meaning Duke's in it, states in it, North Carolina will always be in it? I think there's too many hypotheticals in that. I don't mean to be evasive.

But the ACC is a great league. I don't know if we're going to federate by sport. I don't know if there's going to be compensation models. I don't know if there's going to be unions. I don't have any idea what the future looks like.

So to suggest I have the answer of what might occur 20 years from now, I have no way of knowing. I would say that there's, there's no ACC. If the three schools in the 919 area code, I just don't, I just don't see an ACC that doesn't involve all three of those. But you are at times an idealist. And I am definitely that way when it comes to conference affiliation. And we're going to get to that in a second. But you said a couple of weeks ago, do you want to just follow that up?

Let's back up just a little bit. College athletics is part of the fabric of the United States. We're going to have national competition among colleges in some way, shape or form. But you can't just have national competition, you have to have regional competition. So we will have some type of conference affiliation over time.

And what that looks like and who's in it might vary by sport, it might vary by compensation level, it could be very different. But I yeah, do I think that the triangle schools will play each other somewhat in perpetuity? Yes, I believe in that. Are we, could we be labeled something else?

Possibly. But I do think that we're going to continue to play each other. We're too close. We have too much in common. And we have a lot of the same sports. So we will continue to play just the labeling I think is where I'm stuck on your question. I totally understand that.

This is something that occurred to me was I kind of crystallized it yesterday. Because I think there are we were talking about closing the gap between the SEC and the Big Ten and the ACC. And I think Jim Phillips, the commissioner in Charlotte last week talked to the third. It's third among the power five conferences in revenue distribution.

And really three and four to pack 12. I mean, bless them. I don't know what they're gonna do.

I really don't. But it was a great league. I hope it can be a great league going forward. But the ACC and the Big 12 are in basically about the same ballpark. And it's going to be a pretty long walk between where we are and where the Big Ten and the SEC are. So I guess my I think there's only two ways that the gap can be closed. Notre Dame, joining the league full time, and I don't know how close it gets you overall, or the entire system being completely scrapped, and all the major universities breaking away and doing their own thing because of football.

Is that fair? I think that's a scenario or a couple of scenarios that could play out in the next few years. But I think that, as I said, I think the courts, the legislature, individual independent school decisions are going to dictate the future as well. And I do think different sports will have different rules as we move forward.

I don't know what those will look like. But, you know, again, we have Division I, Division II, Division III. We've got multiple divisions within one.

I think these iterations will continue. And I think schools are going to have to make choices, what they're going to do nationally and what they're going to look like regionally. Can you see football taking 60 teams and separating from everything?

Sure. I mean, I think that's a lot of the discussion lately. Now, what's that look like on a national basis? I do think that if I'm looking out at the future and think that you've got a CFP which generates money that is simply for football, you've got a basketball tournament that's generating 93% of the money for the NCAA, and you have conference contracts that generate money for the institutions through the league, I think those start to define where the revenue flow is and where the economic structure might build itself out over the next couple of years. You mentioned a couple of weeks ago that we don't know what the cost would be.

We alluded to it with Florida State before. There is a buyout, which I believe right now is $120 million. And then there is the cost of getting away from the grant of rights, which for people who don't know, you grant your media rights back to the league until the end of the television contract. And then there's the end of the television contract, which is 2036, I believe.

So we're talking about another 13 years. And that's not the conference you're leaving's grant of rights, media rights, that's wherever you are. So if a school were to go to the Big Ten, whatever those media rights are, you would actually be granting those back to the league.

I mean, I may be wrong, but I think I'm right about how that's supposed to work. Aren't we talking about a starting point of about a half billion dollars to leave the league? Yeah, I'm not an attorney, and I think everybody has dissected this as much as you possibly can. But it seems to me that when you have a general counsel and the university president and the board of trustees says, I'm a member of this conference, and you sign a document that says I'm granting my rights to you, and you have my authority to go negotiate my rights to a network, and the league does that on your behalf, I'm not sure how you can just say, oh, just kidding. I didn't like the deal that was struck, and now I want to get out of it. We don't do that in our coaches' contracts.

Any contract, it obligates you to what you agreed to at the front end. So I'm scratching my head, trying to wonder, what are you talking about? I mean, part of me wants to see what happens next, just because I've got plenty of popcorn at home, and I'm going to eat all of it. I have one more thing before we talk about this guy, and I don't want to monopolize the rest of your day. Bubba Cunningham, North Carolina director of athletics, and this has come to me because five years ago, maybe it's not as big a deal, but it seems to be a bigger deal because there are schools in two conferences that are probably going to be pulling in close to a hundred million dollars in shared media revenue over the next decade. But why does it matter what my neighbor makes? So he's got a giant house, he just put an addition on, he's got two boats, he's got memberships at Pine Valley and Cypress Point, but I've got a nice house, and I've got a boat, and I've got a membership at Pinehurst. What does it matter what my neighbor makes?

I'm still doing well. Why does the SEC and Big Ten money change the calculus for schools in this league? Yeah, I don't think it should. As I mentioned before, our ACC won nine national championships last year. Clemson has won a couple of national championships in football.

Florida State won a dozen years ago or so. We've competed at the highest level, so resources aren't the only answer. I mean, you have to have great people, you have to have great support, and I think our league has that, and we have a great league, so I try not to compare what we're doing. I talk to our coaches about it. We're going to be highly successful when we talk about what we have. You're going to be an abject failure when you talk about what you don't have, and I get absolutely, as you can tell, I don't have much time for that, and I've been around coaches, and I've been around coaches on our staff. As soon as they come in at our meeting at the end of the year and tell me all things they don't have, I know it's time to get a new coach.

That's why I love talking to you. Bubba Cunningham, Director of Athletics at North Carolina. I'm holding up a picture of the Phil Steele college football yearbook, but I could be holding up any college football preview magazine because Drake May is on the cover. So, sir, what is the responsibility of the school when you have a guy, an athlete like May, especially in a sport like football that is really the second most popular sport in the United States behind the NFL?

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Again, Golow.com. Well, you know, I think given today's media world, I think that the best way to promote anybody in anything is for that team to win and be successful. Be the best player on the best team. So you've got it. We have to win a lot of games for him to get recognition that we think he deserves.

And he's already there. He's obviously on the cover of the magazine. So to me, you know, we have a responsibility, but ESPN, ACC Network, the radio shows, all magazines, all these publications, there's no secrets anymore. I think in the past when there was only, you know, the daily paper that came out the day after the game, I think at that point, those marketing plans and all those things I think were more important than they are today. Today it's, okay, what do you see preseason? Are you really that good? How did you perform during the year and was your team successful? And I probably had those in the wrong order. I think success of the team is number one and the success of the individual player would be two, but recognition is not something I think you really have to shop out there.

Yeah. And you know, the truth is, is that a lot of voters for awards like the Heisman are lazy and they simply look at the best team and then who's the quarterback on the best team and that guy, it's just, it's maddening. Drake May, I think was my, I think I voted him second last year. So through a clerical error, I have a Heisman vote and he got my second vote last year.

I don't even know if it was Caleb Williams. I'm the guy who votes weird. I appreciate your time. Are you having a good summer? Having a great summer. We went, I went to the first football practice yesterday. So summer is now over. Soccer, soccer has an exhibition game on Monday and we are, we are ready to go. So it's going to be a great 23, 24 is going to be a great year.

Good luck against South Carolina coming up in a few weeks. We're already into August. Yes. We got, we can't call it fall camp. Can we call it summer camp? Cause it is not fall. It's although today's not bad.

I mean, it's only in the seventies today, but fantastic. Yeah. That's going to be great. South Carolina in Charlotte game is down there.

ABC prime time. I tell you when you want to win a Heisman trophy, five touchdowns, no interceptions, couple hundred yards, maybe run one in and then do that the rest of the year. And you've got a really good chance.

Give them the award on just this weekend or that weekend, Bubba Cunningham, the director of athletics entering year 13 at UNC. I appreciate your time, sir. I'll talk to you again and we'll get your brother on as well. Appreciate it.

He'd be more entertaining. Thanks Adam. All right. We covered a lot of ground.

Yeah. We covered a lot of ground with, uh, with Bubba. Um, a lot of interesting stuff there, unfortunately, because of all of the things you want to talk about, especially like news of the day. We didn't even really drill down on, he and I completely differ on what the rights of the athletes are in terms of finances. I got, you know, he talked about how we'll get into it on the other side. Cause I just want to, uh, pull a couple of the highlights from the conversation with Bubba Cunningham. Um, because I think we covered a lot of ground, uh, including, including his not so thinly veiled comments about Florida state. You have an option, Florida state.