This is Logan Sekulow, say cheese.
The Biden administration pushes for IRS facial recognition. Keeping you informed and engaged. Now more than ever, this is Sekulow. We want to hear from you.
Share and post your comments or call 1-800-684-3110. And now your host, Jay Sekulow. All right folks, the IRS wants to improve your taxpayer experience. So they're proposing, you ready for this one? This one I think I have to say, this is an agency that still uses fax machines and will not do email. They are now proposing facial recognition biometric database for you to get into your accounts to determine what the status of your tax refund is, your tax return review, whatever it might be. So this is taking place and the IRS is saying, well, this will improve the customer support. Now I will tell you, right, left and center are objecting to this.
And they're objecting to this in incredible ways. I mean, ways that we've never seen happen before because the danger here is biometric data given to the Internal Revenue Service, I would think would be the least agency you'd want to see have it. There are so many problems with this, Jay. I mean, start with the standpoint that nobody trusts the IRS to contain this kind of private information.
You certainly don't want a third party entity to do this. And Jay, we're going to go down the list of problems. I know this, but let me just give you the pushback very briefly that's already coming from Capitol. I'm not going to give you any of the Republicans. I'm going to give you three of the Democrats that are saying this is a terrible idea. Senator Ron Wyden says he's very disturbed. Senator Jeff Merkley says it's very disturbing. And maybe most interesting to me, Jay, Congressman Ted Lieu says this is a very, very, two varies, very, very bad idea.
Yeah. Well, look, I mean, the fact of the matter is this is an agency that's still, as I said, using the fax machine to communicate with them. They have a backlog on refunds right now. They can't even get this data forward. And to give the IRS biometric data when they are still using a fax machine, I think shows you where this could go.
And that's why you're seeing everybody right, left, and center. In fact, a group called the Electronic Privacy Informations that are a big group that deals with electronic privacy said this. They said, I think any plan that inserts a private intermediary into the system for assessing critical information or obtaining benefits from a government agency warrants a lot of scrutiny. That's because it's not just the IRS, they are doing this to a third party. I'm not going to get into the third party because the IRS should not be in the business of doing this, but it does raise a host of security issues.
And I always say, the people that, you say the conspiracy theories that are out there, Logan, they feed right into it. Yeah. And I think the main problem about this is that it's the IRS. It maybe has less to do with the concept of facial recognition. A lot of people have facial recognition on their phones. A lot of people have it in certain areas of the country, in certain areas of the world, which just commonplace now for security to log in, to do that type of thing.
Same with your fingerprint. The main concern is it's a department that has shown incredible abuse, has shown incredible problems. Like you said, I've tried to deal with them in the last year and you can't even get responses or returns because they're asking you to work in this archaic system. So now we're jumping, as you said, from the fax machine in five hour phone waits to now facial recognition to log in. I think it throws up a lot of red flags and it's mainly due to the inept nature of the department. It has less to do, again, with the technology and more to do with the fact that no one is going to trust the IRS is going to be able to implement this and it not go wrong.
Don't worry. The agency said it emphasizes that taxpayers can still file or pay taxes without submitting, this is what they said, submitting a selfie. This is what the IRS has come to.
They're talking about submitting selfies for now. Yes. Yes. But the idea that the IRS is going to be controlling this, we want to take your phone calls on this.
1-800-684-3110. How do you feel about that? Yeah. They had just said, Dan, why don't you, can you come up with that comment real quick?
What you just put into chat? Yeah. The IRS promised not to target again, Logan, until they targeted again. Yeah.
Until they did it again. I think that's the concern. People have a lot of issues with the IRS for very good reason. Give us a call. I'm sure you got a lot to say about this. 1-800-684-3110. I know that phones are going to light up because people I just want to ask this question to our audience. Are you comfortable with the IRS having your biometric data, including your facial recognition for your access to your tax information? Give us a call.
1-800-684-3110. We'll be right back. The challenges facing Americans are substantial at a time when our values, our freedoms, our constitutional rights are under attack. It's more important than ever to stand with the American Center for Law and Justice. For decades now, the ACLJ has been on the front lines protecting your freedoms, defending your rights in courts, in Congress, and in the public arena. And we have an exceptional track record of success.
But here's the bottom line. We could not do our work without your support. We remain committed to protecting your religious and constitutional freedoms.
That remains our top priority, especially now during these challenging times. The American Center for Law and Justice is on your side. If you're already a member, thank you. And if you're not, well, this is the perfect time to stand with us at ACLJ.org, where you can learn more about our life-changing work.
Become a member today. ACLJ.org. Only when a society can agree that the most vulnerable and voiceless deserve to be protected is there any hope for that culture to survive. And that's exactly what you are saying when you stand with the American Center for Law and Justice to defend the right to life. We've created a free, powerful publication offering a panoramic view of the ACLJ's battle for the unborn.
It's called Mission Life. It will show you how you are personally impacting the pro-life battle through your support. And the publication includes a look at all major ACLJ pro-life cases, how we're fighting for the rights of pro-life activists, the ramifications of Roe v. Wade 40 years later, play on parenthood's role in the abortion industry, and what Obamacare means to the pro-life movement. Discover the many ways your membership with the ACLJ is empowering the right to life.
Request your free copy of Mission Life today online at ACLJ.org slash gift. Welcome back to Sekulow. This is Logan Sekulow.
My dad, Jay Sekulow, is in studio as well as Wes Smith. We've got Than Bennett remote. A lot of comments are coming in. A lot of calls to the situation that's unfolding where the IRS has now said, hey, take a selfie to file your tax return.
Not yet. That's coming, but that's not that they're not there yet. They want one of our commenters put in a super chat said that she did her online account for the IRS and that one of the requirements was for her to take a selfie. Well, that is if she's accessing, that is a hundred percent correct.
If you are a defective injury, it's going to be was not enough. Yeah. I mean, this is, this is where it's going because if you want to get into your account, which your accountant wants to do, they're saying now you're going to have to use facial recognition software. Now this is an agency that is still using fax machines to communicate and will not use emails. So I want you to understand what we're dealing with here is on an agency level. That's number one.
Number two, this is what they said, Wes. The IRS is constantly in search of ways to improve taxpayer experience and are looking into alternatives to, and they, these alternatives include of course, these facial recognition software. So they're just trying to increase the taxpayer experience.
Yeah. How many people have had a good experience with the IRS? You know, you call and you're on the phone for hours. I've had this happen to be just simply trying to get an answer to a question.
And depending on who you get, each time you call, you get a different answer from those people as well. I put in the chat for us here, you know, Ronald Reagan said the 10 most frightening words in the English language are I'm from the government and I'm here to help you. So, you know, we should be afraid.
The IRS has broken the trust of the American people over and over again. That's what I have to do. It has nothing to do with the technology. I think the technology is just going to be part of society. And we have a lot of, a lot, it's an interesting situation because you talk about IDs a lot. We talk about different ways you go to ID people. This is now the new way.
Well, you don't have to show an ID to vote, but you got to show a biometric ID now to get your tax information. Yeah, exactly. And I think the main concern isn't the tech. The tech is there. It exists.
It works just fine. Security is a big part of it. And the fact that, like you said, the IRS has just broken the trust of the American people over and over and over and over and over. There's another point of this, and then you and I have been talking about this, and that is where does this end up at the end of the day?
Where does it go? And that's the problem with all of this is they're saying right now, well, right now you don't have to have a selfie to get into your, to file your return, but to get into your account, you do. Sure. It's graduated access. I mean, it's a slippery slope, Jay. You won't have to have this technology until the summer.
And by the way, even then you'll have access to certain tools. Look, Jay, we've seen this time and time and time again over the decades. It's a foothold for a bureaucracy and eventually it'll be a requirement that is required for everything.
I'm with Logan. The technology is probably a good thing, but I can't say this clearly enough. The IRS cannot be trusted with this technology or this information. And here's why, Jay. I mean, we said it quickly at the end of the last segment, they promised they wouldn't target Americans when we caught them doing it and got a court order against them. Then what did they do a couple of years later? They started targeting Americans again, Jay, let's put it this way today. They're still targeting Americans. So why would you give them access to this information? Well, they have a court order which says they cannot target people based on their views or viewpoints.
And it's within days of the Biden administration being sworn into office. What did they do? They started targeting people again, based on their viewpoints, but that ridiculous IRS letter to the organization saying, Oh, by the way, here's what we want.
We're going to say, you know, D equals Republican, G equals word of God. I mean, this was insane what they put, frankly. And they started it even though there was a court order. So to trust this agency, you run into intergovernmental sharing of information. They can't even respond to a phone call now. You can't even get, you can't email them.
It is required. They use fax machines and now they want biometric data. And look, we all have some technologically maybe unsavvy family members and grandparents and great grandparents. Well, can you imagine, I feel for now the IRS customer service hotline, they already got to wait six hours. Now you're going to have people calling in who have to take selfies of themselves and upload them for a biometric scan. You're talking about the reason you have, they say, if you've set up a new account, then you have to do this. But if not, because they're betting on the people who already have accounts, hopefully they don't have to do this for, because they can't imagine the onslaught of calls they're going to have to receive about how to do, take a selfie, scan it in.
I mean, it is, it is a mess. I mean, look, look, a lot of people have phased out, if you call in, a lot of people know that look, even though we much prefer you to go to the website, fill out a form, it goes directly to the person that we think is best. They get back in touch with you.
That's just how society has moved. However, and look, if you're trying to call it, you can't call any of the most big companies anymore. It's just, we've gone away from that, but we know with the IRS, you can, it's really the only way to get someone to talk to you. Usually they don't have the answers. Now you're going to ask them. You wait six hours for them to tell you, I have no idea.
I'll get back to you, which is going to be six months. Which is all that is really they can do, because they don't have much more access than you can. But if that does get breached, if there's any problems, obviously this is a major concern. And it's just, again, it's... Who's storing this biometric data? Is this the same IRS they couldn't find?
Uh, emails when we sued them, they were missing thousands of emails that mysteriously appeared six months later. Yeah. I don't know the exact answers of where the data would go or where it lives right now. I'm sure there's server spaces and there's places that it does exist in. I mean, obviously if we're just saying you're looking for photos of anybody online, for the most part, most of us, you know, have photos of themselves on the internet. Yes. I know that's part of the problem.
That's not a shock. Uh, yeah, exactly. There are ways to... So I could say I'm you, you could say you're me and you just scanned my photo. The Apple, um, uh, algorithm, their, their system they have for facial identification, they actually tell you if you're a twin, uh, not to do it because it's not quite there to fully, I necessarily complete and yeah. Or, uh, hold the phone up to someone's face. You know, there's a lot of different ways while they're sleeping and then all of a sudden log into their IRS information. There's a lot of ways that this could happen. There's a lot of ways that you can get someone's information, but that's even with Apple. That's, that's again, just theirs. I don't know what this one, this could be a much more secure version, but with Apples, they specifically say, if you have a twin or someone who is remarkably close to you, uh, to not, not to use there, they can't guarantee a hundred percent.
We're taking calls 1-800-684-3110. Senator Ron Winant, Democrat Oregon said, I'm very disturbed that Americans may have to submit to a facial recognition system, wait on hold for hours or both to assess their personal data on the IRS website while e-filing returns remains unaffected. I'm pushing the IRS for greater transparency.
Ted Liu, who I don't like to quote, but I will on this one. This is a very, very bad idea by the IRS. Senator Jeff Merkley from Oregon also, this is very disturbing, increased use of facial recognition technology to slow slide to a surveillance state. That's coming from a Democrat. Here's what Rick Scott, Senator from, Republican Senator from Florida had to say. I've heard from so many people in my, in my state that said, oh, I was supposed to get a refund, but I had to get on there.
I had to give him my, I, it had to be, had to have facial recognition. I mean, this is big brother. And by the way, this is the same IRS that got hacked a few years ago and millions and millions and millions of people, personal data was, was released. So one, the government shouldn't be doing this. Number two, I mean, you know, you know that it's going to get hacked. There's no confidentiality. I'm surprised probably Biden probably has a Chinese company doing it. That was Senator Rick Scott saying that by the way.
But here's, here's the thing that it's true, Wes. The idea that this agency of all agencies would get the data that includes biometric data now is just frightening because the inter-agency sharing could be unreal here. Yeah. Yeah.
There, there are very little controls on this. You don't really know ultimately what the IRS is going to do or how secure information is going to be with them. And as I said earlier, they've broken the trust of the American people, especially with their obvious bias against conservative groups and against religious people. The other thing about facial recognition software is that it doesn't always work.
It is not flawless. And generally, at least my experience has been that whenever I've used this kind of technology, I have to consent to it. But in this case, starting this summer, you know, you will, you will be forced to consent. That's right. That's right. There's no consent. Yeah. Like I use with my banking, I have facial recognition software. It's something I was willing to do here.
It's saying no, no, no. In the summer, you still could have used the password. You opted in because you thought it was actually, but it was more protection maybe for you that way. But the IRS is saying come the summer, no option.
You have to get biometric data. Let's take a call. Let's go to Benjamin. Who's calling on line four in Indiana. You are on the air, Benjamin. Hello. How are you guys doing today? We're good.
All right. So the reason I was calling in today was to express concern about this plan. I'm right with you in saying that it's very alarming. Uh, the thing that it made me think of right away was frankly, China's social credit score. Um, I think what the IRS is doing is way too similar to gearing up for something like that.
And that makes me very concerned. Well, I think, listen, I think you're right. I mean, I don't know, you know, where this is going and I'm not blaming those that are, you know, but the idea that this is going to quote constantly in search of ways to improve the taxpayer experience.
I think what Logan said is the, is the main factor here fan. And that is this agency of all the agencies to give this data to the IRS is the last one on the list. In fact, they shouldn't be on the list.
The IRS has no business with this data because you don't know where it's going to go. Jay, they just simply can't be trusted. And you also don't know the third party who's going to be there. So the information just starts spreading, but here's my concern with that, Jay. I mean, great sound that you played from Democrat senators, but here's the problem. Every time a major piece of legislation comes forward, think build back better. Think the election bills, think those snooping provisions we talked about earlier in the year, every bill that comes forward, Jay, there's an effort to give the IRS more, more power. So those are great soundbites.
They need to go to the floor where they do their job and quit putting these provisions in bills that are advancing. You're a hundred percent right. We've got a great call coming and we'll take it after the break from Pam, who's a CPA in North Carolina. And I thought about the same thing, Pam, but just give me a heads up.
I thought the same thing. How in the world is this actually going to work? But like Logan said, you can get people's facial recognition. I mean, it's not impossible to get other people's face. No, there's a lot of ways you can do it. I mean, yes, it's something that there is a security to it. I understand that it is your face.
You control it, but there are ways around it. But also the IRS is normally dealing with oftentimes dealing with the accountants of taxpayers. That's true too. There's a lot of people who don't file their own taxes. Yeah. Most.
I mean a lot. Because it's too complicated for us to file our taxes. 800-684-3110. We'll take calls. Our phone lines are jamming up.
We'll take your calls at 1-800-684-3110. Only when a society can agree that the most vulnerable and voiceless deserve to be protected is there any hope for that culture to survive. And that's exactly what you are saying when you stand with the American Center for Law and Justice to defend the right to life. We've created a free, powerful publication offering a panoramic view of the ACLJ's battle for the unborn.
It's called Mission Life. It will show you how you are personally impacting the pro-life battle through your support. And the publication includes a look at all major ACLJ pro-life cases, how we're fighting for the rights of pro-life activists, the ramifications of Roe v. Wade 40 years later, a play on parenthood's role in the abortion industry, and what Obamacare means to the pro-life movement. Discover the many ways your membership with the ACLJ is empowering the right to life.
Request your free copy of Mission Life today online at ACLJ.org slash gift. The challenges facing Americans are substantial at a time when our values, our freedoms, our constitutional rights are under attack. It's more important than ever to stand with the American Center for Law and Justice. For decades now, the ACLJ has been on the front lines protecting your freedoms, defending your rights in courts, in Congress, and in the public arena.
And we have an exceptional track record of success. But here's the bottom line, we could not do our work without your support. We remain committed to protecting your religious and constitutional freedoms.
That remains our top priority, especially now during these challenging times. The American Center for Law and Justice is on your side. If you're already a member, thank you. And if you're not, well, this is the perfect time to stand with us at ACLJ.org, where you can learn more about our life-changing work. Become a member today, ACLJ.org.
Welcome back to Secular. We're going to take some calls about the IRS situation. Also, later in the show, Rick Grinnell is going to be joining us for a good portion of the, not just one second, we've got two segments coming up later in the second half hour. If you don't get, by the way, I'll say this early today, if you don't get the second half hour on your local station, for those who listen on a terrestrial radio, we broadcast live each and every day, noon to one Eastern time. So if you, some stations only carry the first hour or first half hour, and they carry sometimes the second half hour later, but you can catch us live again from 12 to one Eastern broadcasting on social media platforms and on ACLJ.org. Just search JSekulow.
You'll find it right there and again on ACLJ.org. And subscribe, by the way, subscribe to all our outlets and platforms. But Rick Grinnell will be joining us in the second half hour. Yeah, he was a former director of national intelligence. So it'll be interesting to see what he thinks about the IRS, having your biometric data to set up your accounts. We're going to take some calls and we got a line open actually, shockingly. 1-800-684-3110. We'll take some phone calls. Let's go ahead and start. Let's go to Pam on line three in North Carolina. You're on the air. Hey, Pam. Hey, Jay.
I have a question. How do you think this tax or proposed tax situation will affect CPAs and accountants preparing taxes for their clients? I said the same thing in our radio meeting because I'm a tax lawyer by training. And oftentimes, your tax return data or tax return information is being reviewed by your accountant who needs access to what they call your tax transcript, which is the information, all this. And what the IRS is saying now is, well, starting in the summer, that's going to be required with facial recognition software.
So how does then your tax agent, you file a form 2848, it's called a power of attorney form oftentimes with your accountant so they can communicate with the IRS. So how in the world does this exist and happen to get taxpayer information that your accountant needs, or if they're negotiating with the IRS, but it requires facial recognition software? So they, again, this is an agency, Pam, that cannot answer a phone call right now. They are still requiring that when we respond to them on behalf of a client, Logan, they want it by facsimile, a fax.
Remember fax machines in the eighties and nineties? It's going to track that down. Yeah, look, I've had to do it.
So it says do it last year. It's not easy. And then they don't respond. They don't say we got it. So you just assume there's just a stack of paper somewhere. Well, now they say that half the agents are working from home. So they have the biometric data working from home. They can access that. I guess they can access your account without biometric data. Cause you can't. Yeah. I mean, it depends on how that's all secured. And it's sort of like, you know, when you call in the agent doesn't necessarily always have your password.
There's nothing good about this proposal giving the internal revenue. They said, don't worry right now to file your tax return. This is what they said. This is these things they write. Don't worry right now.
You, you don't have to take a selfie. Yeah. For the time being, you don't, you know, there's an old Middle Eastern adage about, and it applies to government, you know, gradually getting more and more control in your life.
That if you allow the camel to stick his nose under the tent, eventually the camel is sleeping with your wife and kids in the tent with you. This is just another way of the government creeping into your life with information that we have no guarantee they can safeguard the information. You could assume they, you can assume they can't. It's the internal revenue service who we filed a federal lawsuit with and really went after him, right? I know you want to take calls. I didn't want to take the call on line two and Warren, who has pretty much asked the question that I think a lot, I see, I see in our comments a lot. Uh, so Warren, you're on the air.
Thanks guys for taking my call and God bless you guys. My question, the Democrats and the IRS pushing for biometrics and yet they don't want voter ID. How does that figure? Well, I mean, first of all, let me say this, and I normally am not defending the Democratic senators and congressmen, but they are also outraged about this with the IRS, but you raised a really great point. They do not want, the left does not want voter identification for you to go exercise your constitutional right to vote, but they want, and they're encouraging, the Biden administration is encouraging the internal revenue service to develop a software program that requires biometric facial recognition for you to get your taxpayer information, but for, to vote, they want you to just mail it in with no security check.
Well, and every state that requires that will actually give you a photo ID for free. But look, I actually think Jake, I can answer the caller's question directly. Why the double standard? Why the hypocrisy? Uh, Jay it's because the government actually wants this information. They want to control the database that is created by this.
That's the entire reason for the hypocrisy here. Yeah. We're trying to figure out the angle to find out about this. We may, we may initiate, uh, some premium information act, uh, litigation.
I want to find out who came up with this great idea, but we do have a lot of calls coming in at 800-684-3110. Let's go ahead and take another one, Logan. Let's go to Mark in Connecticut on line one. Hey, Mark, you're on the air. Hello.
Thank you for having me on your show. Um, I am deeply concerned that we're placing tax paying us citizens under stricter and more intrusive security checks than we do for people entering our country illegally. I mean, this country gives more deference to immigrants violating the law than our own law by citizens. Well, and of course, but, but don't worry because the IRS says, uh, Mark, don't worry because they're constantly in search of ways to improve the taxpayer experience. So, you know, biometric data supposedly is going to do that.
But of course, everything that you just said is correct. Whether it's the voting situation, which we talked about or this, the idea that the IRS can be trusted as an agency to do this is outrageous. Now, here's where I'm concerned from a practical standpoint, the way it works with the internal revenue service as, and we said this earlier, understand the technology they're using. They said that their computers were like from the 1980s, they want, you know, billions of dollars of more revenue, but they're also requiring they're implementing this requirement that you have a biometric facial identification recognition to get into your own account at the IRS. I understand I understand security, but does anybody listening to this broadcast, if you do call me and tell me you trust the IRS to have this information, because frankly, you know, I don't now you had, I'm sure in the military, you had facial recognition issues, clearance, those kinds of things. This is doing this for the entire taxpayer populace of the United States.
Very different. Yeah. Virtually every American. And you said something a moment ago, which I agree with who came up with this idea. Does anyone other than some bureaucrat at the IRS really think that this is a good idea? And here's the, here's the real Testament to what's going on here. Not even left wing progressives think this is a good idea.
And that is really saying something. I mean, no, you got all these groups fight for the future called the on the IRS to stop using facial verification on its website and for government agencies to not do that. You've got I said members of the democratic party coming out this now the department of the treasury is now going to reassess the situation. Now they will only reassess the situation then let's be blunt here because they got caught. And now the pressure, including pressure from the American center for law and justice is on top of the situation now.
Yeah. Color me skeptical, Jay, that to me, this is exactly like the snooping provision we talked about in, in Build Back Better, where they were going to get access to every American's checking account based on a $600 a month, a level of transactions through that it started to be pushed back when pressure came. Jay, it wasn't because they suddenly realized it was a bad idea. They, they, they changed course because we caught them on it and we pushed them on it. To me, this is the same thing, Jay. They've pushed the timeline back a little bit.
They've said, you can still use your login ID for a certain amount of time, Jay, they are going to use this to the extent that they are permitted to get away with it. And we're going to have to keep bringing it up until it comes off the table. That's the only way these things go away. Jay. I'll tell you this we're folks. We're going to get on top. We're on top of the situation.
Dan's on top of the office of government affairs. We're going to fight back on this. We're going to do this.
We're here for another 30 minutes. Rick Grinnell is going to join us for the last two segments, former director of national intelligence to be fascinating to get his take on this whole situation. And we're going to continue to take phone calls. These phone calls have been great. Are you concerned that the IRS wants facial recognition software for you to get into your own IRS information, the same agency that's using fax machines. We'll take phone calls on this.
That's right. We do. We just took a bunch of calls. We got a lot of calls up at 1-800-684-3110. If you don't get us on your local station, we're broadcasting live right now on facebook.com slash Jay Sekulow. We're on aclj.org. You can find us on YouTube. Search for ACLJ. You'll see we're broadcasting live there right now. It's also archived.
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Be right back with more on Sekulow. For decades now, the ACLJ has been on the front lines, protecting your freedoms, defending your rights in courts, in Congress, and in the public arena. The American Center for Law and Justice is on your side. If you're already a member, thank you. And if you're not, well, this is the perfect time to stand with us at aclj.org, where you can learn more about our life-changing work. Become a member today.
aclj.org. Keeping you informed and engaged, now more than ever, this is Sekulow. And now your host, Jay Sekulow.
All right, folks, if you weren't here for the first half hour of the broadcast, ARES has great news. They are going to, starting in June, require for you to get your taxpayer information from the IRS. You're going to have to have facial recognition software that the IRS is going to mandate.
Let me say that again. The IRS of all agencies, the one that we sued in federal court because of their targeting of conservatives and Christian organizations, is now saying that, effective in June, if you want your taxpayer information, not saying tax returns yet, but your taxpayer information, which is your records and information that they have, that they're going to require a biometric scan of your face before you have access to your records. Now, it raises a whole host of issues, including how does your accountant engage with the IRS in this situation? This is an agency that is using fax machines in the year 2022, fax machines.
And they will take six to eight hours to answer a phone call, most of which they get wrong, because they can't even give you the data they want. So now we're going to give them facial recognition software, and they're going to have facial recognition for you, an American citizen, to get in. And you've got the right, left, and center pushing back on this. Now, we're taking your phone calls at 1-800-684-3110, because I really want to hear from you on this. And FAN has got our team working on this already in Washington, because, FAN, the IRS is getting under a lot of pressure now because you've got three Democrats, Jeff Merkley, Ted Lieu, Ron Wyden, concerned about this. You've got Senator Rick Scott from Florida concerned about this. And now they're getting pushback. And when they get pushback, they start to react. And we've got to really push them to react.
To react is, this is a no-go. Yeah, they got caught, Jay, and now elected officials are running from the hills. But look, we're going to have to hold their feet to the fire here until the regulation is actually pulled back before the agency changes their mind. Think about this, Jay. Reportedly, the contract for this particular provision is $85 million. Now, look, that's literally pennies compared to the $80 billion we were talking about in Build Back Better, or the $500 million that they wanted to give to the DOJ. But, Jay, think about if they took any amount of that money and actually put it into either improving systems or adding more people to process tax returns that are filed by the American people.
Back of the envelope math here, $85 million, that's by far the lowest number I just threw out there, that could hire 1,200 processors at $70,000 a year. Why don't they use it for that, Jay? Well, no, because, like I said, they can't even answer eight facts. Let's go ahead and take a phone call, 800-684-3110.
Ricklyn Reynolds joining us from the next two segments. To clarify for those who are listening, they won't answer a fax because you're required to fax. You're not going there going, they won't respond to my fax. No, no, no, you send in a fax, they don't respond to it. They say you must do this by fax simile, and then they don't respond to the fax simile that you sent.
You think you sent, I mean, I assume you do. All right, we got a couple of calls coming in for some professionals on this. Let's go to Chris, who's calling in California. On line two, Chris, you're on the air. Hi, Chris. Hi, thanks for taking my call. I'm an enrolled agent. I think you know what that is, Jay? Yeah, places before the IRS, right?
That's correct. I've been doing taxes for 45 years, and I've been doing representation for about that long, and I agree with you 100%. The problem that I'm concerned about is, your prior caller was talking about what we as professionals have to do, and they are going to require the facial recognition of us beginning in June as well, but something else that's been happening is when we call on behalf of a client now, we simply cannot give our CAF number, which I know you know what that is, and we can't just give our PTIN. We have to give our social security number now and our home address and our date of birth. Yeah, the problem with it is they are operating under technology, and they're trying to get current, but they're jumping from a fax, and like you said, give us your address, to facial recognition software, and we know they don't have the capability of doing it. My concern is that the enrolled agents, CPAs and others, are going to have a difficult time getting this taxpayer information that they need for their taxpayer clients, and you're right, you don't get responses now. We have people in our office that are waiting for refunds now for a year that haven't gotten, and are getting no response, so that's the problem here. Rick Rinnell is going to join us next, former director of... They admitted that a couple of months, a couple of weeks ago. They were saying, hey, be prepared for the 2022 nightmare for getting your tax returns. They are a million behind.
Yeah, the 2022 they're already saying is going to be a disaster equal to what 2021 was. All right, we're going to take your calls. We're going to be with Rick Rinnell coming up, 1-800-684-3110.
That's 1-800-684-3110. Support the work of the ACLJ so we can stay on top of this, ACLJ.org. The challenges facing Americans are substantial. At a time when our values, our freedoms, our constitutional rights are under attack, it's more important than ever to stand with the American Center for Law and Justice. For decades now, the ACLJ has been on the front lines, protecting your freedoms, defending your rights in courts, in Congress, and in the public arena. And we have an exceptional track record of success.
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It's called Mission Life. It will show you how you are personally impacting the pro-life battle through your support. And the publication includes a look at all major ACLJ pro-life cases, how we're fighting for the rights of pro-life activists, the ramifications of Roe v. Wade 40 years later, play on parenthood's role in the abortion industry, and what Obamacare means to the pro-life movement. Discover the many ways your membership with the ACLJ is empowering the right to life. Request your free copy of Mission Life today online at ACLJ.org slash gift. Wesson has said this is the good news. We're from the government.
We're here to help. I mean, that's kind of the motto that the IRS is operating under and they want to improve, quote, the customer experience. So they're going to require biometric data for you to get information on your taxes, your status of your accounts. Now, this is an agency, as I said, that's still using a facsimile machines.
And then when you send them a fax, which if you have one and you can find it as you're representing clients, which we do, they don't even acknowledge they got it. So here's the problem with all of this. And this is why the ACLJ exists. To let the government, especially this agency, get control of this has me very, very concerned.
But somebody that would know even more than our team here, and that is part of our team, of course, is Rick Grenell, because he was the former Director of National Intelligence. And Rick, we're all for security and everybody wants security, but the idea that the Internal Revenue Service noted for targeting taxpayers based on their ideological viewpoints or their religious faith would be given a requirement now to taxpayers. Effective June, you have to have biometric data, your facial scans, as the way you get into your accounts.
Not for your returns yet, but this other data is raising right, left and center. One time in our country politically unified this year, left, right and center are saying foul ball here. Look, I think the headline is that the Biden administration is admitting that IDs are important for security.
Think about that. Where else do we need IDs? Maybe the voting booth, maybe elections. But when the Biden team is telling Americans that you have to have a facial recognition in order to deal with the IRS or get pertinent information from the IRS, because it's the only secure way. Why is the Biden administration against showing an ID in order to vote? Look, Jay, the other problem with this is I just don't see this as a problem for the IRS that people are trying to break into the system and pretend they're somebody else in order to pay somebody else's taxes. By the way, that's what you're looking at taxpayer data when they talked about the tax transcript, that's what you're following. Paying, it's the taxes you paid or taxes that have been withheld, but go ahead, you're absolutely right.
Why would they need it for that? The IRS is so concerned that other people want to pay my taxes and pretend to be me. That's one agency I'd say, pretend to be Rick Grenell and take over and pay my taxes.
Well, here's the problem with all of this, Rick. You mentioned the voting booth situation. Of course, they want no identification there. They want you to mail in a ballot with no checking. But your taxpayer information, they want you to give, and I'd say you, American citizen, Rick Grenell, to do facial recognition to get access to your taxpayer information as if, like you said, someone's going to really pay your bill.
But let me give you another one. They're saying right now, we want you to understand, this is coming from the Internal Revenue Service. I'm laughing, folks, because it's so unbelievable. This is, of course, the ACLJ, we've filed a massive and won a massive lawsuit against the IRS. They're saying we want to emphasize, this is the IRS spokesperson for the Biden administration, we want to emphasize that taxpayers can still pay or file their terms without submitting a selfie. Now, they actually have said that in a statement.
You don't have to, right now, you don't have to submit a selfie in order to do this. Now, what planet are they living in? And this is the agency that I'm saying, again, is still taking facsimiles.
You have to communicate with them by fax. Look, the dirty little secret is that everybody outside of Washington knows that this entire city, the entire government is totally inconsistent. They'll say anything. Only in Washington, D.C., do things make sense. To the rest of us, they don't make sense. But I'm really struck, Jay, and I hate to go here, but I'm really struck with how important it is to give and support the ACLJ.
Because I can tell you, I've been a part of, you know, inside the government and at the U.N., and I've been a part of big multilateral institutions. And without having outside organizations that are free of, you know, government involvement, without having organizations like the ACLJ to demand and push and use the law so effectively, like we do, we just don't have the accountability on the government. You can't rely on our senators and congresspeople to hold the government accountable any longer. If you want to take action, if you are tired of what makes sense in Washington doesn't make sense to the rest of the world, I really say support the ACLJ.
Because we've got a team that just doesn't need approval from the government. We just go after it. We point out the hypocrisy. We use the media. And that pressure of using the law and the legal angles and the media angles works.
Yeah, it does. And, you know, Rick, I really appreciate you saying this. And I want to bring Van Bennett into the conversation, who, of course, runs our office in Washington, D.C. Because what Rick said is exactly correct, Van. We've got the IRS backpedaling a little bit right now, but we've got to get a lot more. But, Van, that's because the pressure is now on.
And we can exert a lot of external pressure. Litigation if necessary. Media, of course, through this broadcast. You working on Capitol Hill with your team to make sure this doesn't just... This would have slipped away if it didn't get picked up. Well, the pressure is on politically right now, Jay.
But there's only one way to keep that pressure up. And it's what Rick just alluded to. Those of us that have the institutional experience and the battle scars from having waged war against the IRS before. And by the way, Jay, not just waged war. I mean won victories. Literally, current law right now because of our government affairs work is that the IRS cannot target Americans on their political viewpoints.
It's called the lowest learner rule. And then on the litigation side, the current status right now is that there is a consent decree that binds the IRS to that standard. So, Jay, we've got those institutional scars. We've got the experience. And we know what it takes. There is political pressure right now, Jay.
But I'm just here to tell you, I look at the Build Back Better Act. I look at the election laws. I look at the snooping provision that existed earlier. That political pressure will not sustain unless groups like ours and all of our members keep the focus on it. We have a petition up right now at aclj.org that it says very clearly, stop the Biden administration's IRF from spying on your bank accounts, which will include all of this. And now you can't even get access to your own accounts. This is the hypocrisy of all of this. And that petition's up right now at aclj.org.
Yeah, aclj.org. You'll see a picture to the right of Biden that says, stop Biden IRS from spying on you and your bank accounts. Very simple. Put in your first name, last name, email address, and zip code, and it goes to be added. We're trying to get to, let's try to get to, let's say 250,000 people here soon.
We're already at 165,000. You should be a part of it right now. You can do that. Again, I think it's linked.
Probably if you're watching on Facebook, it's probably, if it isn't right now, it will be pinned and we'll make sure it gets commented as well on YouTube. Again, that's at aclj.org. We just updated that to include what's happening right now. So do that right now at aclj.org.
I want to, Rick, well, go ahead, Rick. Do I have time just to say the importance of why that is? Absolutely. I just want to emphasize why it's so important to sign up and to give us your voice because we obviously have limited funds. We're really good with what we get and we need to be able to hear from the public as to what is the outrage? What do you care about? When we see the public responding, send in a comment, you know, call in, give us that pressure because we can't do everything. The priorities will bubble up when we see the public react. And so you're very much a part of what we do. I've been a part of the conversations at ACLJ to say, should we go and submit a FOIA request or launch a legal campaign?
And I love how Jay is always saying, look, let's be, you know, stingy here. We can't do everything. Let's make sure that this is something that we can do and what the impact and those conversations are, you know, amazing because it really helps with the prioritization of what we can do.
We can't do everything, but we need to hear from you as to what we should do. I appreciate that, Rick. And we're going to take more calls in the second half, in the last segment of the broadcast at 800-684-3110.
And Rick's going to stay with us. As Rick said, we do want to hear from you on this, folks, and your reaction to this IRS move for, you know, facial recognition to get to your tax information. 1-800-684-3110.
As we said, I feel like it's less about the facial recognition and more about the broken trust of the IRS. And I know you have stories and people have comments and they're putting them in right now. So if you have those, you feel like you need to share that, give us a call. Last chance to get calls in for the day at 1-800-684-3110. There's something else that Rick said, and it is... Let me finish the phone number.
I'm sorry. 1-800-684-3110. There you go. Okay. Okay. Then they're going to go, what's the last two numbers?
1-800-684-3110 if you want to talk to us. Okay. Here's what Rick's saying, and he's right. We had a conversation this morning as this was developing and we had two other requests for cases. And I said, you know, no, because we've got X amount of people and X amount of staff, and you've been very generous and we really appreciate that, but we are taking on major challenges now. I mean, you're fighting the IRS. You are fighting a big machine because they're represented by the Department of Justice and the Treasury Department.
They both have institutional lawyers that are huge, but we are willing to take that fight. But what we need, this is the last day of January, we're not in a matching challenge, but I just want you to know that your support of the ACLJ right now is critical. So I want to encourage you to go to ACLJ.org. And as Rick said, help us with the priorities. Your responding today tells us this is a priority. We, the members of the ACLJ want the team involved in this issue. And we're willing, of course, to do that.
We want to do that. So at ACLJ.org, your contribution makes a huge difference. You're basically becoming a member of the ACLJ. We want to encourage you to do that at ACLJ.org. When we come back, we've got another segment with Rick and we're going to take phone lines.
Yeah, and phone lines are lighting up, but there's still a couple open at 1-800-684-3110. Support the work of the ACLJ, as they said, on ACLJ.org. It's very easy. And sign that petition. And sign the petition, yes. Right now, the petition, they're both on the main page to donate and to sign the petition. You can do them all at once at ACLJ.org.
Look for that big blue donate button. We appreciate all the support. And again, check out the great work of the ACLJ also at ACLJ.org.
Be right back. Only when a society can agree that the most vulnerable and voiceless deserve to be protected is there any hope for that culture to survive. And that's exactly what you are saying when you stand with the American Center for Law and Justice to defend the right to life. We've created a free, powerful publication offering a panoramic view of the ACLJ's battle for the unborn.
It's called Mission Life. It will show you how you are personally impacting the pro-life battle through your support. And the publication includes a look at all major ACLJ pro-life cases, how we're fighting for the rights of pro-life activists, the ramifications of Roe v. Wade 40 years later, the play on parenthood's role in the abortion industry, and what Obamacare means to the pro-life movement. Discover the many ways your membership with the ACLJ is empowering the right to life.
Request your free copy of Mission Life today online at ACLJ.org slash gift. The challenges facing Americans are substantial at a time when our values, our freedoms, our constitutional rights are under attack. It's more important than ever to stand with the American Center for Law and Justice. For decades now, the ACLJ has been on the front lines protecting your freedoms, defending your rights in courts, in Congress, and in the public arena. And we have an exceptional track record of success.
But here's the bottom line. We could not do our work without your support. We remain committed to protecting your religious and constitutional freedoms.
That remains our top priority, especially now during these challenging times. The American Center for Law and Justice is on your side. If you're already a member, thank you. And if you're not, well, this is the perfect time to stand with us at ACLJ.org, where you can learn more about our life changing work. Become a member today.
ACLJ.org. Let's go ahead and jump into calls. Let's go first to Ruth, who's calling from Missouri.
Online four has been on hold for a while. Ruth, thanks for holding. Hi, Ruth.
Hello. Yes. Yes. I am a CPA and I am furious. Yeah. I was already considering retirement when they came up with a cybersecurity written plan requirement.
And now with this, I will, I will not submit to this at all. And I've got clients that don't even know how to access the IRS's site. Yeah. Well, that's what I was saying, which is you have clients who are one, have never either accessed it because they use a CPA, they use an account. Like a lot of people.
Or people who are just not at that point technologically to start taking selfies and uploading them and that kind of thing. They're putting in, Rick, they're putting another barrier in the way between the people and the agency. That's what this does. Look at this.
Ruth from Missouri. So you've got a small business owner in the Midwest, a woman owned business, standing up and saying, my clients aren't going to do this. This is a disaster. Why aren't they listening to the real people outside of Washington, DC? Listen to Ruth from Missouri who owns a business and who is saying, look, my clients aren't going to do this. This is a practical thing that Washington doesn't do. They, they make these decisions in a bubble and they don't listen to the people.
They should listen to Ruth. Yeah. And Logan, you said that the fact is technology for a lot of people like this is not easy to do. I mean, I think filing your taxes in general is not easy to do for pretty much everyone. That's why you have people who are CPS. So let's maybe cut to the root cause, which is no one can figure out how to file their own taxes for the most part.
And if you do, you end up screwing it up nine times out of 10. So you have that already being a huge barrier. The fact that we have an insane tax code, you can't get to it. It's complicated.
You add from that, you add now technological advances that sure. There are people who are going to be just fine submitting a selfie and figuring that out from what I'm hearing. So a large portion of the people who, like you said, two things, either one can't physically can't or have it ever.
And then people who. Pay someone to do this for them. That's the part I can't figure out. So now they have to add another burden to the, to the customer, essentially, who said, I can't figure out the tax code. I pay you to do that. I don't want to sit here. I have to figure out how to log in.
And now what, when she needs to access to taxes, they're going to have to say, okay, will you come by the office real quick? Do a little look in your camera, good to go and move on. Cause that's what it feels like. It's like your phone, your phone doesn't operate. Let's say you have a specific password. There's a lot of things that can go wrong and inevitably will go wrong.
Yes, Wes. Yeah, Rick, you know, you've worked in government for a long time in some very sensitive areas. The thing I think about is that once they have this very sensitive data, if they change their own internal rules about how they store it or how they use it or who they share it with, you have little recourse.
Bingo. Let me just tell you this, you know, we always talk about the slippery slope and a slippery slope here is once you get a facial recognition system going, you could easily go, you know, when you go to the bank, they're taking your picture. You go to the ATM, they're taking your picture. You go to almost on every street corner now in big cities, they're taking your picture. This slippery slope means they can upload your face and do facial recognition to know, are you depositing?
How much did you deposit? Now they're going to be checking all of your financial records. It's so easy to do. Look what they're already doing, demanding with Venmo, right? They now want to know who you're paying. And with a digital footprint, it's very easy to follow somebody and put all this together. Now you had their facial recognition.
It's terrible. Well, it's like you're making the case for them easier while they can't even respond to a taxpayer's inquiry. Generally, we had a lot of great calls coming in. Let's take one. We do have quite a few. Let's go first. Let's go in order. Let's go to Jeff. Who's calling it to Kentucky on line one. Jeff, you're on the air. Hey, Jeff. Hey, how's it going? So I recently moved to Kentucky from Illinois.
Thank God, because I'm now in God's country instead of up there. But one of the things that piqued my interest as I was listening to your show is Facebook just recently lost a $650 million class action lawsuit for using facial recognition in their photos. A lot of people would submit photos and Facebook would automatically identify you and tag you and all that. So I wonder how in states that has certain laws against facial recognition, how the IRS is going to work around or what kind of back doors are going to be cut through to make this work. Yeah, I think there are a lot of laws in place, especially for disclosure of facial recognition. I think that's a big part of it is whether they are letting you know. Facebook had a big problem, I think, with the fact that they were collecting a lot of this data and you were kind of unaware of it.
So all of a sudden when it started popping up, is this you in a picture? Is this you in a picture with you not saying, listen, the IRS has the same potential for damages. Here's the problem. And now you've got the IRS saying, no, it's required. You're going to run into a constitutional issue on the supremacy clause.
Well, then we got a lawsuit. So there you go. Good to go. All right, let's go. No, I think I looked looking just briefly at the Illinois laws.
I think it's a little vague in what specifically is illegal and what's it's more consent than it is necessarily just exactly. I want to take Debbie's call right away and get Rick to comment on this because I sense Debbie's frustration without even taking the call yet, but go ahead. Debbie, you're on the air.
Hey Debbie. Yeah. Thank you, Jay.
I appreciate it. Yeah. So we have an accountant. She did her taxes last year and we owed. So we're like, okay, print it out. We'll touch the check, send it.
No problem. My mother-in-law does that every year. Well, you know, I paid attention, made sure the check got cashed and everything. So here we are a year later, I get a form saying that we have a credit and I've been trying to call them. So then it, um, says on here that I can complete all the tax forms again, get a newly signed copy. I said, all my documents done with that. And so I'm like, they can't even get this right.
So how, how would I think, you know, any kind of facial recognition? Debbie, they can't. I mean, this is the whole problem, Rick. I mean, people are waiting for refunds from a year ago and the IRS already set out 2022 processing for 2021 is going to be worse than last year.
Last year is a disaster. There are, I think it was 30 million returns, not processed yet, at least. And as Debbie knows, as soon as you get on the phone with them, they say, did you fill out form X? Oh no. Well, transfer you over, get the form.
It takes forever. We're not fill out the entire forms again. I mean, that's what they asked her mother to do.
You have to, you have to start off. I also want to make one comment about Jeff, uh, Jeff, the caller, um, from Kentucky, you know, the federal government in Washington, DC gets to do what they want. I mean, Facebook may find themselves in hot water with facial recognition, but if the federal government, if the Biden administration says they're going to do it, they just get to do it because what works in Washington doesn't work for the rest of the country and they don't care. You're absolutely correct. We're going to grab one call quickly. Steve in Missouri on line five, Steve, go ahead. You're on there really quick.
Yeah. Um, I'm just curious as to, with the IRS and they, they get this information, how easily would it be disseminated between inter-agency, you know, to Rick, what about inter-agency sharing? You were the director of national intelligence. What about, that's a great, I didn't mean to cut you off, Steve. We're running close on time, but that's a great question.
Rick. Steve, it's a great question. It's a slippery slope. It will absolutely happen. They'll share information.
Once the IRS gets it, they're going to start sharing it with, Oh, I don't know, the state department for your passport information, uh, commerce for your loans, your business loans, uh, anything retirement. Yep. You're right. This is the problem folks. We've identified it for you.
Now we've got a solution. We're going to take action. Our office of government affairs is on top of this. As Rick said earlier, your support of the ACLJ makes this a priority. We're there for you on this last day of the month.
I want to encourage you to support the work of the ACLJ by going to ACLJ.org and you can get online and we encourage you to do that at ACLJ.org. Yep. That's going to do it for today's show. Again, we'll be back tomorrow.
Same time. If you're watching live that is on at noon on the East coast and just work your way back. We broadcast live, not just on your local radio stations, but for a lot of you, thousands of you that watch online each and every day.
Thank you. That's on ACLJ.org on Facebook and on YouTube, as well as on rumble. We're available on all those outlets and more. Find out all the information, see all the great content we put out. Subscribe, like do all that ACLJ.org. For decades now, the ACLJ has been on the front lines, protecting your freedoms, defending your rights in courts, in Congress, and in the public arena. The American Center for Law and Justice is on your side. If you're already a member, thank you. And if you're not, well, this is the perfect time to stand with us at ACLJ.org, where you can learn more about our life-changing work. Become a member today. ACLJ.org.
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