Pandemics, Plagues, And Natural Disasters Interview Part 3

Let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith. As COVID-19 has raged, people are desperate to return to normalcy. Some see dark forces manipulating the population. Others are resigned to face a disease for which there is no cure.

What can we learn from natural disasters when and if COVID-19 finally passes over us? From the Moody Church in Chicago, this is Running to Win with Dr. Erwin Lutzer, whose clear teaching helps us make it across the finish line. We need clarity from the Bible on how to assess the meaning of the COVID crisis. Here once again is Erwin Lutzer. Well, this is Pastor Lutzer, and I want to welcome you to another special session of Running to Win. In the studio with me today is Larry McCarthy. He's one of our pastors here at the Moody Church, and I need to say that his interaction with me is very challenging as we discuss my new book entitled Pandemics, Plagues, and Natural Disasters. And Larry, the subtitle is very important.

What is God saying? You're not kidding. It's important.

It really is. In fact, five chapters of the book are devoted to what God says. Yes, yes. And today we come to the chapter, chapter four, which if you have before you there, by the way, for our audience, you need to know that Larry has read the book, and that's why he and I can interact about it. So chapter four is entitled What are some of the lessons that we can learn from natural disasters? This is what I'm taking away from it, Pastor. You challenge us here, and you say that these natural disasters teach us lessons. Let me hasten to say this, though, too. I so much appreciate you taking the time and making yourself available to have this kind of discourse regarding what arguably has to be the most important thing that any believer can ask themselves now.

What is God saying? Yeah, and you know, we think about that when COVID came and the implications, but as we pointed out in previous broadcasts, the fact is that natural disasters have been pounding this planet since Adam and Eve were in the garden. So what I try to deal with is not just COVID, but rather tornadoes and even the plagues that come to Africa.

I'm thinking of the locusts. I think we'll talk about that maybe next time. And so what we need to do is to understand how important it is for us to learn what God wants us to learn as a result of this. Now, there is a verse in Job, in fact, that says God sends us, you know, the rain and the sun, and he does this to bless us but also to discipline us. Let's look at it this way. Jesus said, look at the lilies of the field.

You know, they don't toil and spin and look at how God clothes them. So what God is saying is this, learn from nature. So that's what we're going to do in the next several minutes here. All right. Class is in.

The professor is here. There are at least four lessons that you outline in this chapter that we should and can learn from natural disasters. And the first one is really just the unpredictability of life. You know, people in a natural disaster, they don't wake up in the morning and say, I'm going to die today. But the fact is that people die in tornadoes. They die in mudslides. Now, they can also die in accidents. There are plenty of healthy people who said, you know, I'm not going to die of a disease and yet they died of COVID. So what we need to do is to say that natural disasters show us that when you wake up in the morning, you cannot be absolutely sure that you're going to go to bed in the same bed that evening because you might die. As a matter of fact, I tell the story of a couple who left California because they said there are too many earthquakes there and they moved to Missouri.

And in the process, they died in a tornado there. Well, but I'm not being comforted yet. You say it's unpredictability.

That's the lesson to learn from there. But what's the perspective for me then? If it's unpredictable, where's the perspective?

Well, all right. You've asked the question. A verse of Scripture is coming to my mind. Which is to number our days that we might apply our hearts unto wisdom. What we should do is to ask ourselves, if this were the last day I would be on earth, how would I live it? And then try to keep that kind of perspective in mind. Now, of course, we have to plan and all but we always know that our life is in God's hand. James makes that very clear.

What is your life? It's like a vapor. It's here.

It's gone tomorrow. So that's the first lesson. The other thing is I talk about the clarification of values. You know, when the Tower of Siloam fell, and this is in the 13th chapter of the book of Luke.

By the way, that is so instructive. We shouldn't hurry over that one, Larry, because what Jesus said is, do you think that the 18 men who died when the Tower of Siloam fell upon them, that they were greater sinners than other sinners in Jerusalem? I tell you no, but unless you repent, you shall likewise perish. As a matter of fact, one of the big lessons that's coming up in just a moment has to do with repentance, but here's the reason that that's important is that in this age, Old Testament was different, but in this age, natural disasters do not separate the righteous from the wicked. You know, when Katrina happened, people said, oh, it's because New Orleans is such a sinful city.

Well, it may be, but is it more sinful than, say, Las Vegas? What did a small town in Oklahoma do to deserve a tornado a number of years ago that basically, you know, blew out the whole town and a hundred people died? From our standpoint, natural disasters happen randomly, not from God's standpoint. I mean, all this is planned as we emphasized in our previous sessions, but from our standpoint, they happen randomly, but they do teach us the unpredictability of life. So, I live my life that this may be the last opportunity that I have, and because of that, you're saying that that helps to order my priorities now in a way that I wouldn't have if both for the disaster? Yes, or the possibility of disaster.

I think that COVID really focused the mind of many people who thought that they would live for many, many years. It suddenly dawned on them, maybe I might not. You know, it was Samuel Johnson who said, I think nothing focuses the mind like the knowledge that one is to be hung in a fortnight. In other words, you know, if you're to be hung, I think your mind is rather focused, as a matter of fact. That does get your attention. It does get your attention. So does pain. Howard Thurman would mention that, how pain draws you in from wherever you are. The other thing that I mention here, and I know I'm getting a bit ahead of you. Oh, you're fine.

Is the powerlessness of money. Uh-oh. Now, I could expound on this, Larry. Please do.

Please do. Okay. The fact is that if you have money, you can survive COVID better, maybe because you can go to a better hospital and all, but money does not have the power to keep you alive forever.

That's right. The thing about COVID is it was the great leveler. In other words, the young died, some young died, primarily the older ones died, and I won't tell you which category I fit into. The fact is that there's something about death that is the great equalizer. I tell the story of a number of years ago, Larry, this is something that the pastoral staff should do again, but before you were on staff, a number of us, we took a one-day tour of some of the cemeteries here in Chicago, and it was a guided tour.

It was fantastically interesting. I mean, here, I remember one cemetery. Here are the communist rioters. All of them were buried over there. But in the very same way, there are these great mausoleums to some of the great 19th century industrialists. The thing that made them very equal is that all of them died, and the point that I'm trying to make is this, that money has no value inherently. You can't eat a $50 bill, but you can go and transmute it into medicine for your child. So what we have to do is to use money wisely. It is important, absolutely, for us to be able to pay our bills and all that, but still, the point to be made is that money cannot keep all of its promises. I frequently say this.

I'm not sure if it's original with me, but the deception about money is it makes all the same promises that God does. Peter Robinson Protect you? I'll protect you. I'll be there when the economy collapses. I'll be there when you're sick. I'll be there during times of difficulty. You'll always have me here.

You can rely upon me. And then God suddenly comes along and gives a pandemic, and the rug gets pulled out from under people, and they realize that all the money in the world can help me for a time, but it can't save me. Well, that's a really good point, particularly. You know, if we're out of things, we're out of things, and money is not going to make the shelves appear with toilet paper or soap or hand sanitizer if there isn't any.

There isn't any. You know, Larry, I tell the story in the book about some miners who got caught in a snowstorm up north, and they had a bunch of gold, and they weren't able to get out. They had to spend the winter there, and they died of hunger with the gold on the table. Wow. Yeah, I love that illustration. I hate what happened to them, but the illustration of how powerless money is, that with that that you are in most need, sometimes money just can't fulfill that. And these natural disasters, the unpredictability of life, the clarification of values, the powerlessness of money, but then you take us to the deep end of the pool, and this lesson of repentance. Yeah. This is really on my heart, okay?

Everything I'm saying is on my heart, but here's my heart. When COVID happened, suddenly you had all of these prayer meetings spring up. I don't know how many I was on, you know, virtual prayer meetings, you know, join this, join that. And I engaged along with some people because I want to become a part of that, okay?

But isn't that interesting? We can have spiritual COVID where people are not walking in obedience, where the church has 11 within it, and there's plenty of 11 that we could talk about, and nobody seems to be interested in repenting, but let God touch your body, and suddenly we're crying out to him, and we're praying to him. And by the way, that lesson, you know, unless you repent, you shall likewise perish, that actually comes from Jesus in Luke chapter 13, where he speaks about the fact that, you know, the Tower of Siloam, when it fell, and we referred to that earlier, he said, unless you repent, you shall likewise perish. Now, if we have time in the next session, we're going to talk about the fact that all of this is a preview of coming judgment.

In fact, maybe we're going to get to that today, as a matter of fact. Pastor, before you do, though, you said these things are popping up now. In the context of the call to repentance, are you saying that we have neglected prayer, and we only come when we face these natural disasters? Is that one of the aspects of repentance? That's the point I'm getting at, is that I am totally in favor of having these prayer meetings. Yes. But if we didn't have a pandemic, would we be having all these prayer meetings, if everything were going along well, and everybody was well, and everybody kept their job? Uh-huh. You see, the point is that God gets to us through the physical, and in the process, he wants to get to the spiritual, but we think to ourselves, as long as things are going well, and I have my job, I really don't need God that badly. And so, isn't it interesting? Let God touch our bodies, and suddenly, we're on the phone and on the computer saying, let's have virtual prayer meetings all throughout the country. Totally in favor of it, and involved in a number of them, but would we be doing the same if it wasn't for the fact that our bodies were threatened by the disease?

What a great lesson there, boy. Yeah. The unpredictability of life, the clarification of our values, the powerlessness of money, the need to repent. I've got to ask you, so many people will say, the COVID-19 or any other disaster, it's really God judging us. This is God just judging this nation for our sin. So, to me, I try to answer that. Are natural disasters judgment from God?

The answer seems to be yes and no. You know, actually, that's one of the chapters in my book because you've read the book and so you're up on all these things. What I do in that chapter, Larry, is to try to unpack the whole idea of the judgment of God. Maybe I can just back up for a second before I get to what this chapter is about, but I remember a false prophet saying, I have authority over this pandemic.

It's going to be gone by the end of March or whatever. You know what that's like saying? I have authority over death. And from now on, nobody's going to die. So, let's back up and ask ourselves the question, are these pandemics the judgment of God? What we must understand is that, first of all, there are a number of different judgments and that's where I try to explain this, is that on the one hand, the whole world is under judgment already.

Jesus made it very clear that if you don't believe on me, the wrath of God already abides on you. So, you have that judgment of the world, whether people go through a natural disaster or not. You also have, then, the judgment of the world. You have the judgment of death.

This is so important. Death is a judgment, OK? And people are dying every day. I think, and I'm doing this from memory, but I think 7,500 Americans die every day. Yes, that was what was quoted in the statistic in the book. Yeah, OK.

Your memory is perhaps better than mine at that point, but I'm glad we agree on the number. Now, a simple fact is people are dying all the time. You have children dying throughout Africa oftentimes and in other countries, in India, but also in America. The only reason that natural disasters attract our attention is you have a concentration of people dying.

You have a lot of people dying, see. So, what we must understand is that death, however, is a judgment of God. And even though we are redeemed by Christ, we are going to die. So, sin entered the world through the disobedience of Adam and Eve. We are placed under judgment. That has always been. And this world then starts to decline because of that.

And even though we are redeemed by God, we are going to die unless he comes. Yes. So, statistics on death are very, very impressive if you've noticed. 100 percent.

100 percent, yeah. I think also that the immediate consequences that we sometimes face are judgments. You know, sometimes people say, do you think God will judge America because of its sins? God is already judging America because of its sins.

Speak to that. Well, you think, for example, of the fact that, again, I'm doing this from memory, but about 30 million children, if not more, tonight will go to bed with only one parent in the home because of divorce, because of immorality, because of people not taking responsibility. Well, think of the implications of that in the lives of these children and how oftentimes that will be replicated in their lives and in their marriages. It is really a very frightening thing because all sin has some immediate consequences.

That's really the point that I'm trying to make is that all sin has immediate consequences. So, natural disasters as a judgment from God, we've been under judgment. But if we – how would we respond then to somebody who says now, well, the reason that we're having all these issues with COVID or whatever it's going to be tomorrow is because of our great sin. How do we respond to that?

Boy, that's a very good question. I would say this, though, that yes, it is a judgment, absolutely. But we have to recognize, as I said earlier, that it doesn't mean that one part of the country that is more COVID is under greater judgment than another part.

That doesn't mean that an earthquake that takes place in one country means that that country is more evil than another country. But all these things are judgments and we do have a way of escape ultimately. That's what we're going to be talking about actually in the next broadcast. By the way, we're going to be emphasizing the fact that it is so true that God says the worst is yet to come. If you say, Pastor Lutzer, can it get any worse? The answer is a lot worse and we'll talk about that next time. I mean a lot worse when we talk about the tribulation but that God has prepared a way of escape. Now there's something I need to emphasize and that is Romans chapter 8.

Think of it this way, Larry. Human beings are able to do some good things but sometimes even the same person does bad things. We're kind of a mixture, aren't we?

Yes, sir. That's true of nature too. Beautiful sunny day, beautiful breeze, breeze turns into a tornado, you know, and pretty soon that happens. So nature has this same mixture. Now what Paul says in Romans 8 is fascinating. He says that nature is waiting for our redemption so that it can be redeemed. It can't be redeemed until we are because man fell into sin and then nature followed suit.

Yes. Okay, you can't have a sinful man living in a paradise kind of environment. So what you have is the fact that nature followed suit, it has fallen and we've talked about that and nature – this is the way the Greek puts it in effect – is standing on tiptoe waiting and saying, I'm looking forward to the day when the people of God are going to be redeemed because then nature is going to be redeemed. But nature has to wait for us to be redeemed. And if I want to give a word of encouragement to everybody who's listening there, which of course we always want to do, it would be from Romans chapter 8 where Paul in that context says this, the suffering of this present world is not worthy to be compared with the glory that shall be revealed in us. Amen. I love that illustration that you use in the book and I know we're going to have to go but how too much sun, it creates drought. Too much water – That's right. – creates flood.

So it's a balance there. So when people read this book, I think they're going to be challenged and encouraged and convicted. You know, the next time we're going to talk about the fact that the worst is yet to come. It's number four I think on the list of what God has to say and then we'll also have to talk about the way of escape and how even I hope we can work in how we can respond to atheists and those who stop believing because of what happens in the world.

The title of the book is Pandemics, Plagues and Natural Disasters. What is God saying to us? And I have to say after being a pastor for many years and doing quite a bit of writing, I feel so deeply that this book is going to be a blessing. It's going to be a challenge. It would be good to give to unbelievers too.

That was Erwin Lutzer and Larry McCarthy with part three of Pandemics, Plagues and Natural Disasters. What is God saying to us? Next time on Running to Win, plan to join us for part four. The worst is yet to come. How can it get any worse? Natural disasters are a preview of the worst that is still to come. Oh my. The Bible says that men will hide in the clefts and say to the mountains and rocks, fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits upon the throne and from the wrath of the lamb.

All sin is a violation of God's holiness and part of the reason why we struggle with the doctrine of hell is the fact that we do not understand how holy God actually is. Say that. So don't miss our next broadcast. Pastor Lutzer's new book on Pandemics, Plagues and Natural Disasters will be sent as our gift to you as you support Running to Win with your gift of any amount. Just call us at 1-888-218-9337. That's 1-888-218-9337. Or write to us at Running to Win, 1635 North LaSalle Boulevard, Chicago, Illinois 60614. Online, reach us at rtwoffer.com. That's rtwoffer.com. Running to Win is sponsored by the Moody Church.