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Understanding the Mormon Journey: Do Theology Interview, Pt. 1

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October 4, 2021 8:41 am

Understanding the Mormon Journey: Do Theology Interview, Pt. 1

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October 4, 2021 8:41 am

Matthew the Nuclear Calvinist and the Apostate Paul were invited by our friend Jeremy Howard to go on the Do Theology Podcast to answer some blunt questions. This is the first part of that interview. In this installment, Jeremy asks us to revisit our transitions out of the LDS Church, and then asks us if we really experienced a burning in the bosom in our efforts to gain a testimony of the LDS Church and the Book of Mormon. 


Your right and him and firefighters are Calvinists and I went on the do theology podcast where our friend Jimmy Howard interviewed us.

We put it to us was that he wanted to ask you some blunt questions and and indeed you did. I shared with us the recording so that we can also publish it to our podcast and so here comes part one hope you enjoy.

All right, well, I am joined today by Paul numbered in Matthew Eklund from the outer brightness podcast guys. I feel like I know because I listen to their podcast quite frequently. Don't miss too many episodes, especially being a Christian.

Being a pastor in Utah. It's very helpful for me to hear their content as they talk about their transition from being in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to being members of biblical Christian churches now and confessing the biblical gospel.

I learned something new in almost every episode I feel like I I've studied almost everything there is to study within Mormonism and that all of you listening to an outer brightness episode and it will be like wow, I've never heard of that before, but it's great content for me to take and then share with my latter-day St. friends and say hey I was listening these guys talk about this need to explain that to me so I appreciate you guys for your constantly making a podcast and appreciate you joining me Paul in Matthew, thanks much for being here to be on.

Thanks Jeremy not want to start out with just your back stories. I imagine we do have some overlap with our listener base, but probably of minimal overlap, so people who are hearing you guys for the first time and would be interested in going checking out the outer brightness podcast. Just give me your background.

When a time a few minutes each.

Paul if you want to start will start with how you were raised and get into your quote unquote faith journey from Mormonism to Jesus like your stories exciting is listening on one of your recent episodes. There's a chocolate factory involved, which always perked my attention so good pop that ensures current sure the chocolate factory was only a couple months but very influential to Mr. that time was influential, so I was born and raised in the Salt Lake Valley in Utah.

My dad was a convert to Mormonism joined the church of the age of 26 after his father died. He was kind of drawn in by the whole eternal families thing because he is grieving the loss of his dad which was sudden. My mom and my mom's side, we go back to pioneer stock. I have a great-great-grandmother on that side who left Denmark and with her with several of her daughters pulled a handcart across the plans and so she eventually settled in Pleasant Grove, Utah, and then other parts of that family settled in in Idaho which is where my mom was born during my growing up years.

I was pretty active in the NEL district.

My family was was mostly actively I wouldn't say we were my mom was deathly more active than my dad, but we were probably three out of four weeks attender for four-week attenders each month and I was baptized at the age of eight in the baptistery in the in the tabernacle there on Temple Square. I remember early going to priesthood sessions of Gen. conference with my dad.

I was just a young young boy and then as I got in my teenage years I kind of drifted away many of my friends were either not LDS overlap still be asked and I was a bit of a trouble maker myself so that got me a kind of a negative reputation in the ward.

I did still participate in like Boy Scouts and that type of thing but I wasn't deathly wasn't as frequent attender during my early teenage years and in the senior year of my high school experience I transferred to a new high school that they built that your Copper Hills high school. For those who may be in Utah on or where I happened to live in the boundaries for the high school and my junior varsity basketball coach at the head coaching job at Copper Hills and he invited me to come play for them there so I made that transition. My senior year and the Pentagon more serious about the LDS church at that time. Several of my teammates there. Copper Hills were very influential and can kind of being close to me and shepherding me back into activity in the LDS church and not attended seminary more regularly than I had in the past during that year and was working with my bishop and my LDS word on on getting ready to submit papers for my mission. So end up going on a mission to Budapest, Hungary from 1997 to 1999 and I really enjoyed that experience.

It was great to experience another part of the world learn a new language.

It was challenging. Of course, but I was, as mentioned.

Another thing I went from your podcast geographically that those are actually two different cities. I think not that before listening.

That episode was like oh well, I thought to Budapest just one town that it's two towns exactly while interesting interesting little things about the body but it's it's a beautiful area, you know, the Buddhist side of the river is is is let the hills on that side. The pesticide is more flat but you know the Danube River runs through the air and I really enjoyed everything about living in a central European city that has had no very important aspects of history related to it. So that's the luck castles Mike and Evan really enjoyed my time there, but then towards the end of my mission. I started to wrestle with some questions I had made a goal for myself to read through all of what latter-day Saints called the stamps call the standard works which are there there canon of Scripture which includes the Bible, the book of Mormon and doctrine and covenants a pearl of great price and the last one that I was reading through because I started with the LDS Scriptures lesson I was reading for was New Testament and I started to see how much of the book of Mormon narrative and and the text itself relies upon letters of Paul and some of some of the other writings in the New Testament like acts in Paul's expense with his road to Damascus experience so those kind of thing started to bother me.

I'd already had a dirty struggle as a teenager kind of really believe that the book of Mormon came about as Joseph Smith said it came about and so as those things started to bother me. I started look into LDS apologetics.

When I returned from my mission and that's for the chocolate factory comes and I went to work pulling orders of the Hershey chocolate factory and and spent my lunch is reading apologetics works from farms the foundation for engine research and Mormon studies, which is now the Maxwell Institute at BYU and a lot of those apologetics articles challenged me even more, but met my wife online she lived out here in the Cincinnati area where we live now and she convinced me because I wasn't yet registered to go to university Tashi convinced me to come out here and go to the college select I moved out here went to University of Cincinnati started the prelaw degree there and then finished up a business degree at a small Catholic college.

This near where we live, and that was very influential, but early on in my married years, continue to struggle with questions I had about latter-day St. doctrine and history, and after 10 years of marriage. We made a decision together to lead the LDS church.

We no longer believed it was truly didn't feel like we were growing in Christ there so we may decision to leave and try to find a church where we could grow in Christ.

What through your experience there.

Paul would pose a relationship like with your parents is. You were very obviously exiting the church through those. I am assuming he was a couple. A couple years were you wrestling with things and then finally make the decision to leave those your relationship like with your parents and your family. Yeah it was tough but my parents actually that living out here in 2004, so I've been here right now for years my dad moved out here he works. He worked in the end electronics industry for many years, out there in Utah and the company that he had been working for was struggling and ended up going out of business, so he lost his job and she decided to come look out here primarily because my mom said hey you know Paul's guy grandkids. No matter siblings had grandkids for them yet so she said lessee will see doc on 11 near Paul work Marie can see the grandkids more often. So they moved out here. He got a job and so they were here.

Through the years that we were okay really struggling and we had a lot of conversations with them. Thankfully, my parents were pretty good. It definitely shook them. My mom especially my dad. I think already had his own questions that he was working through but they were, I would say. Unlike some other LDS parents. They never tried to shun me or do anything like that.

They were concerned and express their concerns and we had some difficult conversations but nothing, nothing like what some other people go through hello how old are your kids when you left the LDS church see our oldest was 14. How well and our youngest was three. So yeah, pretty young, it's easy to forget just how old you are.

Paul was was that difficult with your kids as you were exiting word.

I'm assuming that three-year-old Nina wasn't latching onto a lot probably didn't affect your three-year-old's life very much.

Through those years but the older kids out of echo initially our oldest sorry she was 16, so she had been attending early Mormons early morning seminary at the LDS church for a few years and initially when we decided to leave. She told us that she wanted to stay.

It was big cultural and social shock for her. The idea of leaving because she had made a lot of friends in the LDS church and especially here where there are fewer Mormons than the many and in Utah it it's really important for them socially as school innocent. If you like an outsider.

So that group really coheres for them and becomes really important to them, so she initially told us one of us wanted to stay. We told her we would support her and that if that's what she wanted to do. We know we would drive her to church in a kind of thing, and she stayed for a couple of weeks and then there was a fast and testimony meeting in which one of the Bishop members of the bishopric stood up and made a comment that there was referencing our family, and his testimony.

Just kinda talking about how he he felt bad that that such good people would fall away and she heard that and it brought her to tears. He came over to her and apologized and said he didn't realize she was in the audience that they need when the said that if she knew she was and that it made her think you know, she thought.

She said the note she came up from church Sunday upset and she said no to us. I know you all are trying to follow Jesus and said that comment just to make sense to me and from that. From that day on she didn't go to the LDS church anymore.

Started going to the Christian church with us while yet for those who don't know fast and testimony Sunday is like open mic night at your service.

That's I think the first Sunday of the month.

The rate were less than minimum of a person and a person. So if you looking at visiting a Mormon church service to go on the first Sunday you can have fun or he might cry. Depending on what they said so okay that's great things for Sharon that Paul appreciate that Matthew your story so I was born and raised in northern Utah. So around the North Ogden Pleasant view area and so my parents were both raised in the church I believe and we had so we'd grown up in a family where my mother had Artie been divorced, so she had son from a previous marriage.

So he's my half-brother so he is my older brother and then there is me and I have one sister.

So that's Toscano where I grew up, and we were not always active in the church so we would member attending a lot when I was really young don't remember a whole lot when I learned that you know I remember be the church and then seem like when I was 10 of run age 9, 10, 11, Toscano and we start going less often. You know my family was never really strong districts in terms of practicing everything the church requires looking on nothing apparent about people.

Of course I need you know I'm just saying that you wisdom where you asked straight to your coffee, alcohol, and so like when I was young I did a coffee and and beer occasionally as I get is not doing enough to get access but you know the home teachers came over.

Then you hide the coffee pot right now. I don't remember us actually having really hung over so you had early enough to do that but yet so we would we would attend, but was denied. Parents start having marital troubles and is around 11.


Next, and so my parents were divorced at 12 minutes, then where you nice talking to church but my affections, the church can start to get weaker and weaker over time. Saws are deigned to erotically sit at 12 which is standard for four most latter-day St. men young men and then a 14 year data teacher in a six year increased, so I was writing a teacher deacon installing a speaker or team, but then I kind of when an active route high school so that he 60s I was eroding increased I should back up and say that I technically am account. I was a convert to the LDS church because I was not baptized.

Eight. So if you're baptized at eight you you basically just have to know I certainly church needs to ask questions of your bishop and stake president and you know in the need to be signed off. You baptized but IAI was not that resonated with asteroid question into an icon asked about it in my: you know don't have to go to the baptizer could have meanness of the church teaches denounces ecology so as I well examine so so I was baptized so I met with Steve what was then the 7027 all you you didn't write the left, the preach my gospel lesson there. The Gustavus Post yeah I know is that it was a call. The discussions the assumptions yet discussions that sort is like literally scripts to a film you know and the missionary would have their lives and then the investigator will supposedly have their lives and if the investigator might my dad was only like or are I can work as my data smells like sometimes they didn't answer the question may want to be the same lines to get the answer you want the house I was the discussions but I think they wanted to down a bit. Yes that's that's what I got in this really old. The pricing post on social media. This really old missionary manual where get a teaching principles were goes through in the Africa discussion number one, here's your outline discussion to and it's got the script and everything will goofy African elders like them in the scripts there were Elder Brown and yet my breast.

About time, I served a mission that gospel but yet when I was, so I took the missionary discussions and as a 10 seat as I sister see also go back to Kenneth 16 and then cattle convicted, you know college, I started going to college and I'd made some more mistakes my life that felt really guilty about not like serious ones, but right where you know I had a falling out with certain people and so I cannot really pick my conscience, I started kind of feeling like I needed changes in my life and so start investigating the church again and start nobly active again and you now thinking to myself know if I can get a test we talked about the book of Mormon minister to mission so so I started attending and I was now is around you as much as a fire started retaining.

I think that was the year that LDS profit basically was doing the book of Mormon challenge Street O'Gorman in the year and every is asking so how far you and Mike talked about going with the challenge of what challenge that you know what I'm gone that long.

It was that was you know, and I called it out, so I was not as had a late start but United read the book of Mormon and I was studying like other books like Talmage really loved Talmage about his apostasy in Jesus Christ and everything all Jesus Christ. I did read all the great apostasy. I read parts of his the articles of faith like McConkie also so I like his Mormon doctrine particular sitting so basically I felt like I was reading a pre-book Mormon really desire testimony like I got no discomfort was confirmed to form strict, so that point I felt like while you last you course so I cannot even pairing.

I took time off of school and just worked to save money and put my mission papers and so is called seagull.

The Russell Islands mission 77 so that mission comprised at the time all of the Netherlands, most of Belgium to very take part and part of northern France and it was a dual speaking mission of the language mission so the northern half, and the west side of Belgium. They spoke Dutch and then side of Belgium in the southern part of France. Ongoing part of France's franchises I was called the French speaking side so I served mostly Belgium for the city as I was called and that I just go to some French cities is in the tiny town of Bethune, on the end and the answer Belgium.

I spent time in the big see the spent time in Wrigley as Brussels and Charleroi which are like the big release French-speaking cities in Belgium and while Brussels is weird because body but most are so as good mission. You know I work harvested not fully prepared to come home and you know get married in the temple with all that good stuff.

So I came home and it would back to college and to my studies and then universities. I finished my bachelors degree in engineering. Your seats on Jean on the Masters and so when I was working Kenneth Fishman*restaurant started question.

It's weird the moment that started? The time my calling was Sunday school teacher and I talked. I think it was because gospel principles maybe I forget that we talked about temple work in size, asking people you know like so I can get on the top temples of his very skittish secondary hesitance want to mention anything sacred, not secret. They could not secret you suspect my guys me like you have the time. He liked what happens is some of the ordinances right now. Okay long stories and that is of the dead yet great board confirmation for the dad and I and you know they do endowments and marriages and someone mentioned the second endowments and I was like a second endowment that sounds familiar member reading something about that but I told him I don't know about that will bug back in so that kind of like that's coming crack the door open to guests like starting to really dig into our church history, and I ran into out what like Dan Bogle's work also as a writer of the time to where Tom Phillips said his name is a former general authority are. It is an area authority in the church in England and he had described his experience of the second anointing ceremony on on the Montessori's program so like reading that and I mean I just did still write that only certain people have access to special ceremony to guarantee eternal life in there and then. Now you know with Dan Bogle's work also looked into good three-day witnesses and restoration of priesthood and how there's different accounts and statesmen changed the differing accounts of justice must first vision and like you know Abraham you know compared to the diagram in alphabetic Egyptian language in house.

I the different characters up to the diary that he had so you know that he got those pirates are submissive to hire you out of those ones claim they said these things as the rabbit hole that is going down further and further and I thought that I was to get out of it.

A strong testimony that I didn't like it's getting worse and worse.

Your stress was unable to hold all of it yourself. Wasn't strong enough exactly a legacy to the same advanced BSO loan. That's a long story basically started out really catlike that the shelf crash moment at the time I was comparing to get rated simple lesser New York site I left you document*came to York taking my studies in engineering and is pretty giving the temple and then a Shelf crash moment and do it anymore.

He almost done done so engagement ended and I just can't try to pick up and try to salvage testimony, some housing okay. I have to believe the church is completely check. I want to try to make that work. But you know I just I also got into watching debates so particular gone to James White's debates because you know I just I just did debates on the priest is on YouTube so that I pick up on a 10 minute pack wide and also the debate on and with the papacy. So I just loved him up because Mormons don't really debate that typically are starting to get into that now you know a certain young apologist, but they don't really engage that much in that way. So the fact that there is this intellectual debate actually look at the Bible say all this answers. This is what I say you can figure the Bible is just a dash of missing documents suggest no corrupted text like that but you actually look at it and get reliable answer some really surprising that so that I know got countries that process is white with this program, the dividing line out. I would read my normally LDS steel quad made mixed James version of the Bible, always executing John chapter 6 is going through.

You know, verse by verse talking about using that reference From Catholics just talk about Jesus as no one can come to Mimas the father sent me draws him out with last day of his talking about and I was just really starting to think I could.

I just couldn't refute the words on the page number was like well after Jesus said you know, and I know I'm going in satisfying try to integrate that into my wanted date at some point Isaac will be a Trinitarian Mormon thing is reading his productivity on the bus ride. When Joseph originally was exactly that work and you know I just got to the point where I was also reading is the God who justifies. Along alongside while reading Romans chapter 25. Not really digested and is on the church court house and waiting for us again to go to church all reading that and I really like you just slap you like me recently several times only Fenster doesn't like it. For some reason I day like measuring Roman streetcars gathers really nothing I can do to be justified. So why do I need temple ordinances why many decreased we need all these other district claims that you need to return to live a God when it says Abraham believed God was credited to him as righteousness. So I felt like at that point I really had to make a choice as like what I've either got a side of the Bible I got a set top and I was just thinking about okay if I stand before God. You know the judge's and I'm getting either you know side to discharge or the Bible might well, if the Bible is wrong, then I'll be wrong with so there's that's coming to the turning point I officially decided will not stop regarding marks of that day but I was going to end so I left and I officially resigned instead he also started attending several churches, so there's a Presbyterian Church divine obesity church that started attending in a record Baptist Church cytosine both Kenneth and figure out which ones I would not line up with more so I'm actually excited join record Baptist Church. The lesson church.

I'm a member of now since 2019 is that is there so then Paul and Michael Flournoy bring me into the soul brightness thing.

At some point when I was 2019 probably now and then Broke me into it.

So yeah, and it's been greater since yeah you've you've grown a lot in a very short amount of time in your theological knowledge and Deming evolved begin using a word that's more of a cultural word than a word. I would like to use a guess, but in a very short amount time I were talking about. You left the LDS church during Donald Trump's presidency and Nepal. It was what Jimmy Carter's presidency when you left so but you know it's very freshening is very fresh for you. Still, I imagine what's your family dynamic. Like how have they been through the last few years for use changing so much in such a short amount of time. Yes, for my mom. So like I said, my mom divorced and they had both remarried so mom and my stepdad are really great there. They're not very religious, so that only church so they were just more confused about why I cancel the wedding thing you know they were now in the dark.

I was telling him about all the struggles is going through so they are out of the blue they just saw the blaze cancel narratively sows the shot in the most but as far as a religious thing you know my mom is coming well, you know you're smart, you get figured out he not do what is right and she handle it so she's in support of Alex and my dad. Yeah, we had some conversation but I cannot speculate on an insane. I just don't believe I can use to, you know, I don't know. I still think the Goren's inspired word of God and the gospel that you know we trust Christ alone is him in his finished work that the justifies us not anything we do or any email or any works we do for the data for ourselves so greedy for us and so we had some conversations since then and thankfully he is supporting.

I think this is the fact is happy that you know that you have gone atheist or you know how to turn to drugs or whatever. So he sees is happy that not doing something you know to know positive. I guess he doesn't like a good number and a standard version of the Bible. Once that he struggles to understand the Bible read and understand and/lares Gorman might well you don't have to read the King James version version, but there's plenty of other versions up so I given the standard so yeah so thankfully it's been pretty pretty good and I so very blessed by God in and to know you know there's some people that any not was important to Mary but I think you will note that she was able to find what else. That was not a state because I can be very messy relationships we see it all the time out here where people get into a mixed religion marriage where the person is a Christian just really nave.

Or maybe you know the time of marriage.

Neither one of them were Christians and one of them becomes a Christian and that is what I think one of the great just non-biblical extra biblical I should say not nontypical extra biblical evidences that Christianity and Mormonism are different. You get to have a married doesn't work out very well that they're not the same so well okay will appreciate you guys.

Sharon appreciate that a lot, really, really, just appreciate you guys and with the Lord's done through your lives can we see each other interact in these Facebook groups were part of an staff that is really respect the way you guys go about your dialogue and respect. The way you present things in your podcast. I said a lot of respect for both of you, and someone who benefits from your your content just unthankful for the most on their lives. So how are Jesus's national born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in order to commonly referred to as all of us have left that have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ. Podcast brightness six, John 19 the true light which gives light to everyone you found life beyond Mormonism brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our comes to us from without. This is to share our journeys of faith God has done in joining us to his son and everything in between that you found this and hope you stick around right now to transition to imagine what may be next to you in the room is your peak Mormon self from years gone by kicks of the peak Mormon version of you from the past. I will interact with that person.

A little bit now that you are where you are is a conversation I wanted to have for quite some time. I think he is a perfect list you met Matthew you mention the phrase in even said that you experience this burning in your bosom bulb for both of you and I want nobody to come in on this is whenever. But did you really have a burning in your bosom when you work in that mode when you were seeking to get confirmation from God that the book of Mormon was true and that Mormonism was right overall and and how you process that experience now I'm in the process. That is a Christian. Looking back I don't so that I have a burning in the bosom. Yes, I had I started to really prepare for my mission which was in that year post-graduation from high school and in prior to my 19th birthday I started to realize that I'm a latter-day St. Piper never talks about these testimonies and I've of course had stood up and formed testimonies in fast and testimony meeting but I kind of realized note that I have some work to do to determine if I really believed that enough to go out and preach it so I started reading the book of Mormon. I had never read it all the way through before there's kind of a clich among Mormons. You know that you start reading and you get to the Isaiah passage is the second Nephi and stop reading.

It's kinda hard to understand and make it through that the quicksand of Almo will sink you were chapters are pretty bad. So yeah, I have never read all the way through and started doing that I had a nose working at the same electronics firm that my dad was working at and be that the guy who cofounded the company and and was the CEO was a stake president so they had me programming chips to your microchips to put into different components things to build like that the ratings boxes for Nelson these to build other health like health equipment for the group was used in hospitals like nothing so they had me programming microchips and process will like dog stick a microchip in the in the machine pull the lever down so would block it in and hit the enter button on the computer and it would run a process to program over about five minutes so I would use that five minutes to read the book of Mormon and I never got in trouble because like I said that the CO did walk by and extubated kind of encouragement as a mystic president, and I knew I was preparing for mission.

So really started to fall in love with the book of Mormon enjoyed its narrative. It's not it's not a boring book. It has has an interesting story that tells if you're into like action and I'm not not not try to be offensive in state inspection understand the merit of flows well and it's it's interesting you know has some characters even kinda connect with that kind of thing so enjoyed all that all about about it and I haven't really ever read the Bible all the way through either Red Hat had read portions and memorize certain passages as part of my seminary curriculum in high school, but on the book of Mormon was really kind of.

It was what I measured Scripture by you know it's kind of adopted the idea that that's how Scripture comes about.

No profit gets some plates or some hidden writings and bring some for you that that was my idea of how Scripture worked out and have very sophisticated view of Revelation inspirational so you really start enjoy the book of Mormon, but knew that if I was in a Grand Prix should not have to pray about it.

So one night I was up late by myself in my parents, living room, doing some reading in the book of Mormon and decided that that was the night I was going to kneel down and pray about us like down by the side of the couch and started to pray and ask God you know is is the book of Mormon true is just the true prophet and whoever was described as it tips, like simultaneously like warm water was being poured over me, but also like a radiating of 1000 from the center of my chest and that's very similar in that Holstein leaders painted. There is very similar to the first vision account that Joseph describes right where he goes to kneel and pray in the woods asking which church to join and he feels like a warmth. He feels some sort of a yearly nobody leaked out of body experience.

Next essential kind of thing is that was that in your mind as you were doing that like basic similar yeah but you're doing what Joseph originally did not think I don't think Joseph crossed my mind, but the fact that I had been taught in the LDS church setting so many times from like with the section as is. D&C 10 I think where Oliver Cowdrey is trying to translate because he was serving as Joseph's scribe and he was trying to translate portions of the book of Mormon and it didn't work out for them and there's a there's this revelation supposedly given to him through Joseph Smith word says you know you kinda doing it wrong is The message and have to search out your heart and your mind and then I'll let you know by burning in your bosom. That's for that language comes from whether or not it's true or not, you have the translation correct right so use that to kinda teach you that that's that's the way you know truth is through this burning in the bosom. So did that night even addicted to cross my mind on I'm experiencing this thing but it's exactly what I've been told over and over and over and over again that I would experience you have said it did kind of trouble me a little bit like I don't know that I would've been sophisticated enough to think I've been conditioned to feel this but that's kind of what what I was thinking is like now to make them only space in the spirit of been told that's what will happen. I did stay on my knees for a long time that night and just kind of like I would slow my breathing and focus on my chest and my chest and I realize that by doing that I could kinda bring about the similar feeling of elevation and it that bothered me because it was like bowl if I can kind of make it happen just by meditating or slowing my breathing or doing whatever and how how can I be certain that that was God speaking to me so that that question rattled in my head the entire time that I was on my mission when I was in the MTC. I was still on my knees late at night after my companion was asleep in the dark of our dorm room just pleading that I would have an experience that I couldn't deny you and never got anything other than that, that first time because it is built up as this is the thing that you have to have a that is your is your rock is Mormon. Basically, having just you can always fall back on. I had that experience in that confirms to me that this is true in in yet. If you're questioning that then you can be swept away by anything I guess is that how they they would teach that Matthew similar type of burning yeah is very similar odds when it really is section. I also need to doctrine and covenants in reference to this, trying to translate could do it says do number my son in verse six for is wisdom in me that I have dealt with Manner. The old you have not understood you suppose that I would give it unto you of thoughts.

It was to ask people to send you that you must study it out in your mind must ask the right to the right. I will because it wasn't shopping with you. Therefore you shall feel that it is right, but not right. You shall not have no such feelings but you shall have a stupor of thought because you just wrong. So yes, that's kind like the gas like you said that's like the crux of how revelations work was very similar and I felt like I just like warm tingling, you know, comforting sensation that was confirming what I was, but is feeling and to be honest if it the fear I've had. It is actually tenant like warm burning, but yet like I have doubts just general and I was just doubting the church in obeisance history because before then. You know I was confusing to me that the same experience. I pulsated to have us experience better ways for me would be like watching Disney movies or something really emotional music or like you hear someone giving a story to study religious anyway and you know you feel that same warm burning, the buzz of Michael Kayla how to know my brain kicks in and things like audio how my discerning whether this is God trying some truth versus just my feelings and I think of anything wasn't Joseph Smith and Brigham Young missed at the revelation of God and also the devil and I and I know for certain the Brigham Young said that not even the devil can burning in the bosom and so it's like well okay will you know I really started plaintiff down my mind. I really know Scott and there were exchanges on mission. My gut we were always told to pray to know where to go talk to and at one time. I just felt I felt really confident probably get the goddess meeting.

Nina paid the time to go down the street Street in Lake time cycle Kayla stew that has when he went into it with me. So I went on a street we start knocking on doors when the house he saw had like a star dated outside and knock the door will be answered with some guy just came outside and so were talking to me just charges right at my companion right and were like okay I don't know what.

So we started hurting him walking outside past suspense to give a very hard to buy companion in the rear end and the sucker punched face and it was raining really hard at night so is hard to see anyways saying sucker punch me in my glasses flew off in the like on the ground somewhere.

This is weird, and was like less a weird way and was like actually no I don't want to tell you that I felt really sick to my stomach. No, not yet.

It's the way you want to tell me.

Hindsight is 2020 companion exactly their expenses like that were felt like the one guy was going to lay another time in and in like those expenses and really doubt the reliability trust fractured.

Yeah, did you guys ever look back at those experiences and thought demons. I now much of the entertain that idea on this side of your understanding of who God is and who man is and angels and demons, and all that heavy thought that you been a demon messing with me personally.

I never really thought about that. I just figured it was you know, just that the flesh wanting to seek after religious affections or religious experiences through you know through carnal means I casting us, but something to consider.

It's possible that I haven't given that to too much serious thought either I thought boys is kind of understood it to have been pressure I was putting on myself. Did I when I was in high school basketball was my life and had the difficulty of the first high school where I was. There was a changeover and coaches there and so my my skills were less valued than than others and and so wasn't a hard decision for me to make to go to the new school and then act like I said, it brought me into a whole group whole new group of friends in and that kind of a whole new relationship with the LDS church, and so I was in the situation where was like my dreams of playing college basketball were coming to fruition. So it was time for me to turn my attention to serving a mission in and in that pressure. I think I really wanted to believe and I think you know that that was my experience with a good sure yet thinking about Dena begin going back to peak Mormon Matthew and peak Mormon Paul eat at that time you would've said of course that you believe in the Bible. The Bible's and the standard works. It's in the Quad and everything else that you use that as a latter-day St. in you would've said the Bible is from God, even that it it's it's God is given the Bible to us yet.

You didn't really think that right. I mean that's the way I feel whenever I'm interacting with Latter Day Saints today. It's like okay yeah you say that you don't believe that in his honor. As you look back Howdy process that I grew up in the time when it was Spencer W.

Kimball and Ezra Taft Benson was the prophet, and he know he had. He made a big he's known for making a big push on the book of Mormon and really pushing me that the quote from Joseph Smith that is the keystone of our religion. And you know we talked about and what it means that it's a Keystone and an arch a lot in church so deftly kinda had the in my mind the book of Mormon on a higher shelf on the bookshelf than than the Bible and a lot of letters as a signal to go side-by-side, but in my mind it was it was in a higher place because I grew up in a time when the teaching from the LDS church was it. It clarifies the Bible and so anything I would've read in the Bible that was troublesome to me that maybe made me question some aspect of LDS doctrine. I would have immediately subsumed back to where it's more clear in the book of Mormon right so that's about having slim as the book of Mormon assignment book of Mormon needs no clarification right right right well I mean the only thing that in LDS teaching. The only thing that can clarify the book of Mormon or or rightly interpret the Scriptures as the word of the prophet right and that's been even reduced out to the word of the prophet and the and the 12 apostles as their speaking in unison right in concert right so this is no longer that a prophet can clarify which which allows them to kinda get off the hook with prior understandings of like seconded by 2523 in the yeah it's it's very in very specific contexts is the there word official anymore. Yeah that's been narrowed down. Matthew what would you think of the Bible. What would peak peak Mormon Matthew really think of the Bible.

What kind of agreed with Joseph Smith's plan.

He said that as Scripture was penned by the apostles. It was pure and uncorrupted, but through the machinations of sinful man was corrupted over time parts of loss is so the parts that were original correct Which was corrupted is not correct. So it's kind of strange kind of like the kind of holds like a distorted or different sense of inerrancy of Scripture that you know causes withhold to United States inerrancy, but but they reject that any of that has been all gay. They reject that all of it has been correctly transmitted time they would say that much of it or are maybe insignificant or very crucial parts of the Bible and not be transmitted correctly, so now it's part of justice. No Bible translation process was restoring that restoring those lost parties. That's how I considered it, but most Latter Day Saints today. They see it as more of a commentary on the Bible, but I was never taught that I never believed that your recent episodes you guys did with Steve James on the inerrancy of Scripture, those would be helpful for people to check out just a week or two ago though setting of three parts rate that came out so if you guys want to hear Paul and Matthew talk to a current Latter Day Saints about specifically the inerrancy issue. That's a great conversation to have Doug going back to your missions. Did you ever lie on your mission was a time where you lied.

I can imagine there will be opportunities for lying as a missionary, but yeah weather is embellishing stories whenever you are sharing your testimony are trying to get conversions or however how you counted stats over you where you honest, upfront good guys on your missions. I tried. I tried to be as honest as I could. There was there's not really any times I can remember were budgeted numbers.

I am a broad subject like a screwed up you nice that you should have somebody or there is one time verdict training on a wireless race but I felt like what we are training at other missionaries not getting example situation we are talking some chemistry and I I said something I thought was very accurate. Like yeah why would you say that like you know is it is a mock situation where your teaching investigator to track John's baptism and I said I said something on lines of well you know baptism is pleasing to the father.

You really don't want to let you have the father down, and the like will know so we will be baptizing the time selected so good about that is a yeah you know you can find want to manipulate but as far as the actual style I lying at all really is a rainy situation.

I'm sure I didn't know to plow the time so I'm sure I did, but there was any egregious things like looking back, I would say that yes I did because I II knew that I harbored doubts about the veracity of my experience praying about the book of Mormon and yet I would and Hungarian say no to them would Mormon king that you guys I say I know that the book of Mormon is true right and so that that hated me. Towards the end of my mission. Though I started to change my language and I would say I believe, rather than I know because I felt like belief was a choice even though it allowed me that the the leeway to continue to study and and and see if I actually did believe, rather than saying I know because of the spiritual stance that I that I had reservations about will be back next week with more of our interview with Jeremy Howard on the two theology podcast encourage our listeners check out the podcast is very good from a sound theological perspective. Thank you for tuning into this episode of the outer brightness podcast. We love to hear from you.

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