Becoming Like God, Pt. 1 (Gospel Topics Essay Series)

Your right and fireflies. The apostle Paul here is episode about her brightness from warming to Jesus, I'm recording a new intro for this episode because since Matthew the nuclear Calvinists I recorded this episode on July 1, the state of affairs is changed so in this intro I'm going to provide a quick timeline in 2012 or 2013.

The LDS church began publishing gospel topics essays designed to allow church members to learn about difficult topics in LDS Church history and doctrine directly from the church's official website, rather than other online sources. These essays have the imprimatur tour of the first presidency of the LDS church and acknowledge the reliance on the work of scholars and crafting the essays in the early 2000's. When I was in the midst of my period of deep questioning and wrestling with my Mormon beliefs. What many call a faith crisis, there were many online apologetics resources fair shields asked Gramps. I remember that in the discussion board to someone posted an article from one of those resources in response to a question, it was often lamented that the LDS church leadership did not put their stamp of approval on those answers, struggling members wondered if they could trust the apologetic resources. Many surmise that the gospel topics essays were designed to do just that.

To inoculate church members against difficult topics. The relationship of the LDS church to the essays, however, has been 40 some of documented edits that have been made without acknowledgment and the essays are not easy to find on the website, you will stumble on them unless you know what you're looking for.

Many who have left over the past 70 years have cited the essays as sources that cause them to question their beliefs and noted when they spoke with local ecclesiastical leaders about the essays and the questions that they caused many local leaders were not even aware of the essay's existence on June 23 of 2021. Fred Anson shared with us that one of the gospel topics essays. The one titled becoming like God had disappeared from the LDS church's website, but was still available in the Gospel library app available for mobile devices. Matthew and I had already discussed doing a series of episodes on the essays so we fast-track this one recorded this episode on July 1. At that time the link for the becoming like God essay was still on the website church of Jesus Christ.work but redirected to a different essay titled our Mormons Christian the disappearance of the becoming like God essay was widely noted in online ex-Mormon communities and many were speculating that maybe the LDS church was seeking to distance itself from the doctrines discussed therein doctrines which perhaps more than any other LDS Doctrines Pl., Mormonism outside the mainstream of Orthodox Christian beliefs affect the blink redirected to an essay aimed at answering the question. Our Mormons Christian further that speculation on tick-tock annex Mormon meant eczema lacks pointed out that the frequently asked questions in the newsroom section of the LDS church website expressly denies that Latter Day Saints Scripture or doctrine teaches that exalted Mormons will get their own planets. Even though LDS leaders have taught that is doctrine for almost 2 centuries, and as recently as 2018.

When current LDS profit and president Russell M. Nelson taught the traditional LDS doctrine on this point.

He said a gift from our Savior is actually a promise. I promise of life everlasting. This does not mean you seemingly living for a really long time forever after � regardless of the kingdom and glory for which they may qualify. Everyone will be resurrected and experience the mortality but eternal life is so much more than a designation of time. Eternal life is the claimant in quality of life that heavenly father and his beloved son live. When the father offers us everlasting life, he is saying, in essence, if you choose to follow my son if your desire is really to become more like him. Then, in time you may live as we live and preside over world kingdoms as we do seemed odd that the LDS church would seemingly be distancing itself from this doctrine, but the LDS church is repudiated core doctrine and practice before over the weekend of July 3 and fourth essay in the mobile app began to disappear for those users whose absent completed content refreshes on the website. The essay no longer rerouted is simply became circular such that if you clicked on the link for becoming like God you landed on another page with a link to becoming like God. It's almost as if the LDS church was trolling and the link became like the Trinity mirrors in the ceiling rooms of their temples been on July 7.

The essay appeared back online without comment. I used archive.Works way back machine to pull a version for May 18 and compared it to the July 7 version to see if edits have been made. The only change was the removal of the original publication date of February 2014. So for now we close this odd bit of Mormon history, still unsure why the essay disappeared for a couple of weeks which declaration of the LDS church should be taken as doctrine made by the LDS newsroom staff were that made by the current profit and president of the church, even so Matthew and I read each section of the essay. In this episode and discuss it. The full episode is close to three hours. So in this first part bringing you the first two sections of the essay overview and what does the Bible say about humans divine potential of her second child. Overview one of the most common images in Western and Eastern religions alike is of God is apparent in of human beings as God's children billions pray to God as their parent invoke the brotherhood and sisterhood of all people to appease and reach out to the weary and troubled out of the conviction that each of God's children is great work, but people of different faiths and people different faiths understand the parent-child relationship between God and humans in significantly different ways.

Some understand the phrase child of God as an honorary title reserved only for those who believe in God and accept his guidance as he might ask of the fathers.

Many see parent-child descriptions of God's relationship to amenities as metaphors to express his love for his creations and independence on his substance protection Latter Day Saints see all people as children of God in a full and complete sense. They consider every person divine origin, nature and potential. Each has an eternal core and is a beloved spirit son or daughter, parents, each possesses seeds of divinity and must choose whether to live in harmony or tension through the atonement of Jesus Christ. All people made progress toward perfection and ultimately realize the divine destiny." Just as a child can develop the attributes of his or her parents of the time the divine nature that humans inherit can be developed to become like their heavenly father's the desire to nurture the divinity's children is one of God's attributes that most inspires, motivates and humbles members of the church, God's loving parentage and guidance to help each willing, obedient child of God, receive of his fullness of his glory. This knowledge transforms the latter-day away Latter Day Saints Cedar Fellows and the teaching that men and women have the potential to be exalted to a state of godliness clearly expands beyond what is understood by most contemporary Christian churches and expresses for the Latter Day Saints. The urine rooted in the Bible to live as God lives to love as he loves, and to prepare for all our loving heavenly father expect our loving father in heaven wishes for his children quick questions. You hear the tone when I come from you know my side hurts/talk about the section really quickly.

Do you have any thoughts you want general thoughts you want to share on the section and like the Marvin like studying client is like, you know, confessional is in making a Devine's proceed as a straight man slightly like my ears are ringing with Mike Harris CLR Reno is not because like when you when you look at the early councils and that the debates over Christ is their view was that Christ is God because he's divine like divinity is something that differentiates God from every other being so parts of this right says that like her.

I said Artie since the all people as children of God in a full and complete sense. They consider every person divine origin, nature and potential if I have an early church father what students they would they would read that CEO there saying that we are just as much God as God is in a that's they don't they don't see they didn't understand the divine nature to change or to become like in that same paragraph it says just as a child can develop the attributes of his or her parents. Over time, the divine nature that humans inherit can be developed to become like that heavenly father's suds like they they see I was going this discussed� The essay goiter describing is that the divine nature is something that is corrupt or imperfect, and it can become a perspective divine teacher and such a thing is like completely foreign to the entire church. So yes, those are Thoughts I had yeah yeah interesting and I agree with you as I was reading through it in preparation for Ferguson for this episode. II noted that the essay doesn't really begin with a doctrine of God and God's nature. Rather, it begins with the doctrine of man and or humanity and in its potential and so that it immediate immediately kind of took my mind to. When I was first beginning the study, systematic theology and in reading about theocentric theologies versus anthropocentric theologies. Theocentric theology begins with God and God's nature. What kind of being God is and then works from there to creation humanity's in the fall.

Salvation and and ultimately the whole plan of God.

But this is a no focuses on immediately on, what Latter Day Saints. He is the potential of humanity since it it it kind of marks latter-day St. theology as a is an anthropocentric theology and so what what I mean by that is is human centered right and a lot of times when we talk to Latter Day Saints online. Yes, there is a focus as there is here on the essay in the essay on God as parent. But there is also very much ate a focus from Latter Day Saints on their own potential. What they can become and it's it's very human centered and there's a reasoning when when they think about who God is, they reason from the human to the divine right.

We are physical we are alive and we will eventually be like God is this is this essay, claims, and so they reason from our nature as humans to what God must be like that, only better right and that that way of thinking that way of reasoning in an anthropocentric way, in a human centered way that is driven by their theology. It it's it's something that they come come by honestly through receiving the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I don't fault them for it.

I just like to call out that that that is what they do and it is that's what I did until until I no longer believe the unique truth claims of the Latter Day Saints movement and sends branched out outside of that faith.

So that's just my overall initial thoughts on the section but what kind of folks in a couple of things are said within as well.

There's a line that says some understand the phrase child of God is an honorary title reserved only for those who believe in God and accept his guidance as they might accept the fathers and so Matthew isn't. Isn't that the biblical view that we are adopted as children of God, as called out. For example, John 112 human really got to that line.

I was, I am not quite entirely sure if there saying that that that was a direct reference to what Christians believe.

Or, you know, maybe they're trying to general and stay will not specifically Christians but data something on the island that in terms of what we believe, I think it's partially true because it sounds like I only reread that C is honorary title reserved only for those who believe God and accept his guidance as he might accept the father so they still it seems like it's describing that father-son hood or parent or father childhood to Christian if that's what it's referring to as a Christian. It seems like there saying that it's more just like a mentor mentee relationship.

You know I God.

God gives instructions and you follow them and that that's what makes father-son I think. I think the big Christian view of adoption is much more than than just a mentor mentee relationship. You know it's it's where were becoming. We know God in a personal and loving way. God knows us.

We strive to become like him.

We love and worship him. We strive to become conformed to Christ image, and the Holy Spirit works in us to do so to work best become my Christ, and so it's it's not just God's instructions and follow them. It's there is a real relationship there. There is a language there so it's this part of the part of the way there were not quite what would he think without yeah I I agree with that and I would go I would go a step further, that the big difference here is you know what's being set up here in the essay is the idea that we can become like God because we are already like God by nature, there is not a creator creature distinction between God and humanity. And so that that to me is is very different than you said your new heresy leaders were going off about that to me is very different than what I see in the Bible so there.

For example, John 112 to 13 says, but as many as received him, referring to Jesus Christ to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. So when when believers are adopted children of God.

It's it's a birth from above rights of birth from God. As John 113 says, but is not something that we have as humans by nature, as verse 12 says, but as many received him, to them he gave power to become the children's children, God. So it is something that you receive from God's grace. After you have received Jesus Christ as your Savior. So Latter Day Saints are our of the commonly say that that we are literally children of God and we talked a little bit about it before other episodes.

Matthew what what do Latter Day Saints mean when they say literally children of God, and I guess it depends on what side is saying that. Traditionally, there is dispute that in some form or fashion that God the father, in conjunction with heavenly mother.

So our heavenly parents were in some form or fashion.

The literal parents of our spirits so they don't really know how that works but we were originally in eternity past spirit intelligences that were uncreated and eternal just God is uncreated and eternal in the spirit intelligences were formed into spirit bodies by our heavenly parents, and that became us in the pre-mortal life so let's cut how they were our literal parents. So just want to quick step back a little bit talking again about the anthropocentric versus theocentric approach to theology. The approach you just kinda laid out there which was is the traditional latter-day St. view right heavenly parents in some form or fashion. We are spiritual offspring of those heavenly parents at least the core essence of us rise so our spirits are our intelligences are literal offspring of heavenly parents that view again it's it's a very anthropocentric view with reasons from what we know of of existence and procreation between husband and wife and it and it kinda casts that on to the heavens and onto God, right, and then says God, is this a major because man is this in nature, so I want another question is were working through this essay the question really is what what is the truth.

That's what you know I think you and I met you both want Latter Day Saints to ask that question right. What is the truth here in the truth. What we can know of it depends on God absolutely and what God is revealed, I want to share a passage from the faith once for all Bible doctrine for today from Dr. Jack Jack Cottrell, who I studied under that Cincinnati Bible seminary. He says the reality of absolute objective truth is grounded in the fact that a transcendent creator God exists. The existence of God is thus the fundamental basis for truth, man is finite, bound by an egocentric predicament, but God is not God is infinite in every respect, including his knowledge.

He is omniscient, he knows all things, and he knows them absolutely.

His knowledge is complete and perfect absolute truth does exist, it is the contents of the mind of God.

This difference between God and man is rooted in the fact of creation. Man is in every respect a creature and thus is limited by nature God alone is the creator, the eternal one who brought man and everything else into existence out of nothing.

Ask Nilo the distinction between creator and creature is a unique kind of being he transcends all the limitations by which creatures are inherently bound. The existence of the transcendent creator God is the basis of absolutes of any kind.

The mind of God is the prototype of all reason and logic is very essence is log us word, reason, logic, and he cites John 11. There he invites us to come and reason with him, and he cites Isaiah 118. There is infinite consciousness includes all possible knowledge about all things without gaps or errors. Thus, everything he says about himself, about the nature of man about right and wrong about sin and salvation about heaven and hell is true.

Thus God and God alone is the source of absolute truth. Matthew what you think about that what Dr. Cottrell says that I don't deny much say other than yeah great that explosives so what what I want Latter Day Saints to get from that is I want them to think about the teachings that they receive from Joseph Smith and his successors, and I know Latter Day Saints believe that these teachings are revealed and that when they were revealed to Joseph Smith as we work through this this essay you will see I think the author of this essay who is anonymous in several places no what we don't really know much about XYZ and you my question better. Latter Day Saints will be do we really not know much about XYZ or or is the X wires.

The being deemphasized so in then and if it's being deemphasized but Smith you believe Smith was a prophet and receiving revealed revealed truth from God, why why are those things being deemphasized. Why is the full implication of what Smith taught explicitly being deemphasized the city so that the passage in the in the first section says Latter Day Saints see all people as children of God in a full and complete sense to consider every person divine in origin, nature and potential. Each has an eternal core and is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents so you kinda noted that they are placing human humans in the same category of deity that that God is in correct.

Why is that why is that a problem while they don't its LDS beliefs don't really make any kind of distinction between communicable and incommunicable attributes of God so communicable meaning there are ones that are can be communicated to us in OT as those in the image of God and incommunicable meeting. Those are unique completely to God that graduates solely belong to God without include things like tonality are meeting like he's never change. She's never become come into existence there died in the instant sense of his eternal divine nature and so is my nature doesn't change.

I is a Sadie� A fancy work thing God's self piece he's independent he's Dino does rely on anyone else for his existence. He's completely singular so there's only one opinion. In all existence on things like that, Caesar, Inc. parts some of that and communicable act of God that do not want creation and can't be given the creation, but in artisan thought that only make that distinction, whereas communicable attribute to be like RCN justice.

These are things that are demonstrated in God and in a perfect way and in us there analogically related imperfect way. So some of these things we can learn and we can grow in these communicable attributes but not in the incommunicable logic spent all this bodily make that distinction.

It seems like we have just as much potential to just as much God as God is. Now they would say that they would become higher than God, or that they would somehow cease to be subservient to God in any way, even if they reached but they do believe that in every single way imaginable. Basically, we can become just like God is and that's mean like he said it just destroys the creature creator dynamic. A disk blends the lines to make us in every way conceivable. God and that's a problem because it just the Bible is just filled with Psalms that show how powerful and different and superior God is to mankind and that God controls everything in the palm of his hand and that he can change the weekend or he can harden the heart of Pharaoh. He can move the heart of the king as he wishes to speak in God's in control of everything. But when you make us just like God is then I deny Catholics the whole concept of who we are and wish to God on his head and it goes back what you're saying about being focused on who we are and on man and then using that understanding systems are way up to understand who God is and that's not how we should do it.

Start with Revelation what God is revealed about himself that have some kind of grasp of God is in use at understand how we relate to God yeah yeah really good stuff there.

Matthew and you know what I was when I was first studying systematic theology and an understanding the differences that you mentioned between communicable attributes of of deity and in commutable attributes of deity unit with with with latter-day St. view this being presented here. As you noted, there are no incommunicable attributes of deity because what Latter Day Saints theology says is that at its core essence. Humanity is already divine, and it arrived when I first came out of the LDS church.

I had been spurred to read the writings of Augustine because I I once fancied myself to be wanted to be a fiction writer and site I had written several fictional short stories that were kind of based on my experiences Latter Day Saints and I did a lot of reading of Latter Day Saints.

Other Latter Day Saints authors so and Orson Scott card is a famous science-fiction writer hero Ender's Game. He's Latter Day Saints and he outside of Ender's Game is written many sci-fi and fantasy series, some of which explore aspects of of Latter Day Saints on teachings. I did a lot of reading of Levi Peterson. I'm not sure if you're familiar with his work or not. Matthew, but she wrote probably it it it probably is the most famous Mormon novel is called the backslider and I really like that novel like what he does with this characters not novel, but he also has a collection of short stories called the canyons of grace and in in there there's a story called St. Augustine and I read that story ends. You know after reading a story I wanted to read the who is the state, Augustine, Diane McKay, learn about them.

So I started reading you shortly after I left the other street.

I started reading Augustine's confessions and the city of God, and I was mentioning that one point to someone on on the Facebook discussion board, but I was was reading the city of God, and I was quoting something to them that I thought was relevant to our discussion we were having and Jasmina, why are you reading are you reading Augustine and you know even even though you've left the LDS church. Why would you read things that are part of the apostasy you know what what value did that and you meant I made the comments that that guy at the time.

You know that you know heading out of them out of the LDS church, and I don't necessarily hold to this idea of this great apostasy where the church to Christ and his apostles built cease to exist on on the earth for 1700 years. Now that I didn't have that belief. I felt like all of Christian history, all of Christian doctrine writings was mine to explore and devour them and understand them so that's that's what I was reading Augustine and so not sure a couple of quotes tonight from from Augustine and from some other church fathers think it's important to to read some of the things that they said so. I have a quote from first from Basil the great and then from Augustine related to this whole idea of ours are humans, children of God by nature. Or do we become children of God, I'm so Basil the great says this in the writing of his call concerning baptism. He says when the soul has been clothed with the son of God, it becomes worthy of the final imperfect stage and is baptized in the name of the father himself of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to the testimony of John gave the power to be made sons of God.

So Basil the great viewed the potential of humanity to be the sons are the children of God right but he didn't view them as having that by nature.

Augustine says this in his writing called on nature and grace.

He says when any person is considered to be among the children of God. Such an achievement must not be considered to have been accomplished by their ability alone.

This ability they have received through the grace of God because they did not possess it in a nature that has become corrupted and depraved so some of these I want to call out as we work through the essay I got one more from Augustine and then will move on to something else. He says and sermon 166.4.

Augustine says I mean you are not being told not to be a human in the sense that you are to be abused rather than you are to be among those to whom quote he gave the right to become the children of God." God, you see, wants to make you a God, not by nature. Of course, the one whom he begot, but by his gift and by adoption for justice. He threw being humbled came to share your mortality. So, through lifting you up, he brings you to share his immortality. So Augustine kind of is touching on some of the incommunicable attributes and communicable attributes of God. There right Matthew. He's saying you don't possess immortality by nature.

God does the sun does human stone, but because Christ became human because he humbled himself and took on flesh. He will lift humanity to immortality, something that they don't possess by nature Mecca brings a direct to a question that I have. As I as I read through this essay. Matthew and I wanted I wanted your thoughts on it so we can noted that by saying that people are children of God.

Humans are children of God inherently and by nature are divine in origin.

What what is it about this idea of preexistent intelligences that Latter Day Saints having their theology that make it a quote unquote divine nature.

What is it make how does it make it a divine nature. There free mortality is intelligences right trying to make sure understand the question: so what I would say that they believe that God was also an intelligence rate that he was once an intelligence that was like us and then he was organizing to spare body and then he progressed to God. We censored Ishmael specialist toxic out father was in every way like us that's from a default discourse on Scott Barrow quick set up says that since Joseph Smith was, it wasn't discourse for King critters don't know and seems to follow his funeral discourse. So does Mrs. hear quote I will go back to beginning before the world was to show what kind of a begot is what sort of a being was God in the beginning. Open your ears to hear all the parts from going to prove it to you by the Bible to tell you the designs of God. In Galatians human race, and why interferes with the affairs of man, God himself was once as we are now is exalted man sits enthroned in younger heavens that is the great secret, if the veil rent today and the great God of Moses from its orbit upholds all worlds and all things vice power was visible. See if you received today, you would see him like a managed form, like yourselves, and all the person image and carry forms a man for Adams. The very fashion image and likeness of God and receive instruction, and walk talk and converse with as one man toxic use with another." So I basically talks later on how he says, quote imaginative suppose a God is God all eternity, I will refute that idea and take away the veil so that I see."

So said briskly talk behind it and basically every single imaginable. God is exactly just so we are divine in the sense that it is kind of reverse. It's not that we are divine that God is in every way like a human, so there really is no distinction between the divine and human nature. Same thing like you are talking about.

According to fathers and an adequate studio station the next they did see a distinction, then the Bible says distinction between the human and divine natures, but another stop at the same thing every single ectomy just different different in group degrees different progression different in perfection, so they would see that God is the perspective state of man, whereas we are in it. An imperfect state that I think that's right.

That's how they would how they would describe it so I guess my question for Latter Day Saints is why is it necessary for you to view human nature as inherently divine versus transformed into divine by the work of Jesus Christ, which is the Orthodox Christian view. I think that would be my question Latter Day Saints. I understand that it's it's coming from the teaching of Joe Smith but you know from from the logical perspective of one asked the question why so we've introduced into the discussion kind of his concept of intelligences and this is something that in many ways Latter Day Saints view as unique to Joseph Smith and I like to point out that it's not you need to Joseph Smith.

This is something that was initially, developed within the theology of a man named origin organ adamant just listen to podcast. I went to a couple of podcasts about origin. He was born in the year 185 in Alexandria in Egypt and he was born and raised a Christian, which was unique for the time because at that time that the Christian movement was still pretty new, so there weren't a whole lot of Christian families throughout the world. So it was pretty unique for him to have been born and raised a Christian.

His father was martyred. And he also wanted to be martyred for his faith but his mother didn't allow that she had his clothes from them so that he couldn't run out into the to where his father was being martyred without having to run out naked so she saved them from from martyrdom, but he was is considered to be one of the most influential early writers in the Christian faith. The reason for that is, he was trained as a philosopher Plotinus was a fellow student of their their teeth their Greek philosophy teacher Plotinus develops Neoplatonism so is his education was top-notch as as a Greek philosopher, so the way that he thought was Greek in nature. In many ways and but he was also committed to the Hebrew Scriptures of the Old Testament. He is important because he is.

He did the first he was a first in several ways. One of those is that he created a work called the heck sampler which is really it's it's kind like the first textual criticism approach to the Old Testament.

He took six different sources for the Old Testament texts.

The Hebrew text, the Septuagint had one to remember the others he had been yet six different texts of the Old Testament and put them side-by-side in columns a massive work as you can imagine with with as much text as is in the nude in the Old Testament and his. His idea was the same as the idea of modern textual critics was to find the original extant texts right that the first text, let's let's recognize that there are differences in translations in his day the big differences that were often called out were the differences between the Greek Septuagint, which is the version of the Old Testament that the Christians tended to use and the Hebrew versions. There were some differences and so he did this whole text critical work back sampler which is largely lost to history, but it's it was very super important during his lifetime in any other way that he is a first is he's kind of the first two create a systematic theology of Christian thought and that book that work of his is called dipping could be admitted in mind that means on first things and in that work. He develops this idea that he does it.

Based on what he sees around him. So if we talk a little bit about reasoning from humanity to God being anthropocentric that's that's kind of what origin did in his reasoning about intelligences right.

He looks around them and he sees that there are varieties of people who know some of whom are more advanced spiritually than others. Some of them are fully debased and stand in debauchery. Others are are more seem to be more elevated spiritually and so she asked the question.

You know, why would why would that be the case right if God is no respecter of persons. Why in this reality of this world we live in. Would there be any kind of variation in the level of spirituality of people and where he reasons from bear is very similar to what you find in Latter Day Saints thought, which is again something that in modern Latter Day Saints thought is rejected and kind of downplayed but there's this idea that people were placed into certain circumstances in this life based on what they did or didn't do in a preexistent life as a spirit as an intelligence that that doctrine that that kind of thought played very heavily in early Latter Day Saints teachings and even up and up through the 1960s. It's not a teaching today that Latter Day Saints readily accept, but it is something that origin reasons to you as well. So if you're interested you want to see how that plays out in early Christian thought your go read those sections of of origins to print could be, but origins teachings on the preexistence of souls, and some of his other teachings were declared heresy at the second second Council of Constantinople. Some church history scholars argue that the anathemas better there in the second qubit of the records of the second Council of Constantinople for the anathemas against Oregon were origin should not be there because they were actually brought him there really wasn't the main topic of that counsel. Those anathemas were brought in from a separate synod that had been held where they been declared to be heresy, and that they were brought in politically into the second Council of Constantinople in order to give the whole perimeter of the whole church to these anathemas against origin so but just just bring. I just bring that in. Because I think it's important for Latter Day Saints to understand that that these ideas very few of the ideas that Joseph Smith presented as revelation are unique to have, but they have they have been presented at one time or another by someone else in the history of the church or some other person who was not a Christian but was a Gnostic or Marcy and I were or what have you. That was deemed a heretic. So these ideas are not unique you. You can ask the question how do Joseph Smith know about them and that's it. That's a question worth investigating, but the two. The point is that they're not unique to him. They do show up, other times in Christian history so I just talked for a long time Matthew to get your thoughts on what I said yeah thanks are sure that basically it's you.

We can't say for sure that just got this idea from origin but we can save strength that he was the first so I think it's good to show that the background yeah it's I wanted to share two from the keep all discourse really quickly just in case there are some LDS out there that say that we don't know the eldest don't believe that intelligence is there, God is not what times.WS Allstate not believe that you and I was taught it all my life say here that indicates all discourse, but quickly talks about the soul being eternal sentencing discourse. I showed earlier, he says, quote the soul mind of man. Spirit ready to come from alternate minute doctors of divinity say that God created in the beginning, but it is not so.

The very idea lessons man in my estimation, we see that God himself is a self existing man does exist upon the same principles and then later he says he talks about the Bible. It does not say in Hebrew that God created spirit of man. It says quote God made man of earth and put into him out of spirit and so became a living body, the matter the minor and intelligent man possesses his coat equal with God himself. Later, he also says is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal.

And yet, that it has a beginning, the intelligence of spirits had no beginning either will have an that is good logic that which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits for their coat equal with our father." That's the entire quote.

Spencer took different parts of all discourse. So yeah, I think it's important to note that did teach us that rental just word eternal, and that criminal existence and there's you can find that idea and origin and others.

I don't know Swedenborg had that ideawas, "Smith, I don't really know much about his theology but that's a potential source of his views on, you know like us and inspiration for his views on know the pre-mortal existence but but Diablo cycle memoir that the essay talks about where he got this first idea about remote existence. They say that the bookmark of been a source of that.

But yes a lot of interesting stuff listening to our brightness contrast from God, to walk with Jesus when he is selling this measurement is we were all born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ. Basin teaching the name of our podcast. Our brightness reflects John 19 calls Jesus, the true light which gives light to everyone you found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own.

Thus, our brightness purpose is to share our journeys of faith God has done in drawing us to his son. We have conversations about all aspects of the transition fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between. Glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around. So we covered the overview will jump in the next section of the essay. What does the Bible say about humans divine potential.

Several biblical passages intimate that humans can become like God. The likeness of humans to God is emphasized in the first chapter of Genesis, God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness. So God created man in his own image in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them. After Adam and Eve partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, God said they had quote become as one of us," suggesting that a process of approaching godliness was already underway later in the Old Testament, a passage in the book of Psalms declares quote I have said we are gods and all of you are children of the most high." New Testament passages also point to this doctrine.

When Jesus was accused of blasphemy on the grounds that quote Bell being a man make a slice of God," he responded, echoing Psalms quote is, is it not written in your law. I said you are gods" in the sermon on the Mount, Jesus commanded his disciples to become perfect, even as your father in heaven, which even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

In turn, the apostle Peter referred to the Savior's exceeding great and precious promises we might become partakers of the divine nature. The apostle Paul taught that we are the offspring of God, and emphasize that as such we are the children of God, and if children than heirs.

Heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. The book of Revelation contains a promise from Jesus Christ that to him that overcome if I will grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame and sat down with my father and his throne.

These passages can be interpreted in different ways. Yet by viewing them through the clarifying lens of revelations received by Joseph Smith Latter Day Saints see these Scriptures are straightforward expressions of humanity's divine nature and potential many other Christians read the same passages far more metaphorically because they experience the Bible through the lens of doctrinal interpretations that developed over time after the period of after the period described in the New Testament right Matthew thoughts on this section will see so yeah this is kind of what we are taught at least what I recall, this is collective, the standard presentation of how of how man is like God based on biblical passages not split or Latter Day Saints will use also in our discussion group send missionaries orchards passages Jesus can say my logic.

So we had is a lie we could talk about here.

There a lot of tabs up Associates" yet there there are some I think I was records about Paul and church history can use that same quote in a similar way, where they they they would state that these these quotes about how you are gods and taking out to me that going to become like God is doing a quote from Irenaeus.

He said that God had become what we are that we might bring us to you. What is self" and he says he added, duly cast blame on him God because we are not made God's beginning, but were at first treated merely as men and then later as God's love got is adopted discourse that it was pure benevolence that no one rechargeable discrimination or stinginess declares I have said you are gods in all of your sons and most high is necessary at first, that need to be exhibited, and after that what was mortal would be conquered and swallowed a bit more tolerant so yes there are people in church history. I think that that quote that Psalm somebody to write this as you are gods and use that to demonstrate our in the belief that God created us to become like to become gods will see there's not quote us had women of Alexandria.

He said yeah I say the word of God became a man might wear a man hot God. That's very slick quote to Athanasius recorded already said the word was made flesh, in order that we might be made.

God's so there's this concept of use using the same passages and in a sense, but there's always this fundamental different understanding of who God is made.

They didn't look at this and say all God must be exactly like us just in a better perfect form. So men will get more into that ends in the next section we talked about history. We read that first call you read was from Irenaeus read that again because he makes the point right that there's a difference.

Yeah. So see, Irenaeus said he was from 130 to 202.

He said that God had become what we are that he might bring us to beat you what he is self added quote duly cast blame on him God because we were not made God's beginning, but were at first treated merely as men and then later as God's other God has adopted discourse out of his pure benevolence that no one may charge him with discrimination or stinginess declares I have said your gods, and all of you are sons of the most high. Then later he says, for it was necessary at first, that need to be exhibited, and after that what was mortal would be conquered and swallowed up tout" so it seems like Yaqui saying that humanity is not savings as the divinity because that humanity needs to be swallowed up in this and then yeah and become what we will become that.

That really didn't notice that there's this difference right that we were made in the beginning God that that's what Matt's exactly what Latter Day Saints teaching is right is that by nature.

We are divine we are gods in embryo from the beginning by. We also were in the beginning with with God, which is what doctrine and covenants section 92, recasts John one is saying and so we could been asking and and and kind of walking around a question that I kind of like to raise more explicitly right now is does this teaching that we were we preexist as intelligences does that do damage to the teaching about the uniqueness of the log. Austin John one anything that you repeat that I need to look your best to deal this teaching that we are. We were in the beginning with God as intelligences does that do damage to the teaching of John chapter 1 about the uniqueness of the log us.

That's good, that's deep.

I think I think it in my I guess they would explain that while I was believed when I was Latter Day Saints that Jesus was unique in the sense that he was the firstborn son of God, the firstborn literal son invite because of that he had certain direct divine prerogatives, including the deed, the ability of somehow becoming God without a body as he attained unto God.

It is what I could say only be attained unto godhood in his pre-mortal state and because that he was sinless. We he was able to become state to be the Savior of man so that he was special in that sense but instant in terms of nature.

I don't think he could savings any different exactly I will link to a as I mentioned a podcast about organ origin.

That's it's difficult to know which way the say that with that with the Greek G demo but I thought it was interesting that in the podcast will start about a little bit. There's that there is a Roman Catholic priest is one of the people speaking in the podcast and then there's there's another guy he's, like post and I and he seems more like a layperson in the way that he discusses things and then ask questions of the of the priests of the priest talking out origin and will and his teachings on the preexistence of souls and the other gentlemen in the podcast now asked the question of if that's the case why would they take on bodies right and that goes directly to the heart of what you were just kind of discussing their Matthew is like. Jesus is Jehovah and latter-day St. thought as the firstborn spirit son of Elohim has this divine prerogative to become God without taking on a body and therefore is somehow still unique and I know this is the point has been argued to me a lot by other Latter Day Saints when I've leverage these concerns but the question then becomes like like the Catholic asked in that podcast. Why, why then would anyone take on bodies if it's if you're already divine. If you're already deity in nature.

Why would you take on a body. So I think Latter Day Saints would do well to think more deeply about that question. So the other things I wanted to raise from the section of the essay.

You know the quote Peter talking about the exceeding great and precious promises that we might become partakers of the divine nature him become as in future tense again that it is that that difference right between what Latter Day Saints geology is that we are already divine in nature. Even if you're going states in seed form and the teaching of the New Testament which is we become partakers of the divine nature through Christ and this is why thing is so important to raise that question about the uniqueness of the log also had a very detailed discussion with Brett Dennis who we've had on the podcast before stock to debate that the book of Abraham. We had an in-depth conversation on our Facebook post about our episode on creationist Nilo where he and I went back and forth discussing why John one the great prologue in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Why that is so important in its teaching about who Jesus Christ is talk before that night, my uncle. My uncle Carl but my dad a placard that he hung a mark on our home. It was a painting of Jesus on the morning of the resurrection and had John 11 to 3 quote on it and my dad hung out in our home where I could see it often and I read it often and something that I thought about and rolled around in my mind a lot compared with what I was being taught as a teenager as Latter Day Saints about the nature of God and the nature of humanity as discussed in this essay, and realize that there were some core problems for Latter Day Saints geology that are presented there in that first those first few verses of the Gospel of John. It's absolutely essential that Jesus be unique that Jesus did God. Humanity cannot be raised to divinity cannot be raised to mortality except God come down among us and rate them agreement with the church fathers are very explicit about this.

They understood what what John was teaching there so you know.

Brett felt ultimately landed when I asked him directly, as is his do you view log us is unique and he said no, absolutely not that that's it's to me that is a major problem for your theology because if if Jesus is not the unique son of God. There is no salvation so these these the issues that are wrapped up in this essay are are are pretty severe.

The other question I have for you. Matthew is innovate the quote from a number of passages here in the section. John 1033 to 34. Matthew 548 second Peter 14.

Acts 1729, Romans 816 to 17 and Revelation 321 we don't need to look them up and go through them in general think because they're quoted here, but they did kinda brush off Christian understanding of these passages by saying that Christians generally understand these more metaphorically son ask you do you do understand these past passages more metaphorically, as a Christian. So select the passages right conduct and record so many to exist your God's elect. Not sure if I know each one has its own context is kind of hard to really describe all of them. I go back and forth in terms of how to interpret Psalm 82, but it's but the same time. I understand instance that when God speaks out God's you know, or the sons of God in the Old Testament like sons of God. It's talking it's never refers to them as being of the same species or order or likeness as Yahweh, God of Israel bespeaks he's a completely different kind unique type of being.

So we talk about these gods of the sons of God is not referring to Dennis as if they were of the same order or likeness. They're seen as the subordinate beings. These these spiritual creations that are simply another subordinate to God's authority and stopped and so we have to understand that context instead of saying here's the word God, so that must be talking just like you know the God of all creation and on every we have to take everything in its proper context. And so you know in a way Jesus used so many to become interested in multiple ways, but no way could be understood say that Jesus was quoting on to say that okay it's saying that you, whether it's talking about all humanity or US judges in Israel you in some sense can be called God's so why is it wrong for me to take on the title son of God.

So whether it's saying that you are God's speaking of man, or just talking about judges in Israel are called gods because of statin judgment over Israel as if they were placed God and so what you not it's okay for you to become God's lies across me, so son of God.

That's kind, 111 minus been interpreted so I do not generally save it's metaphorical or analogical. It states it's more just like having an understanding of what is needed. What was or gods in that country section, you know it's it's like and I kind of ugly sometimes when you talk with like you with some other Christians. They know I can in their particular extending the passage will be like, well, just read either.

Believe it or you don't know is if like there's no interpretation requires an end. Sometimes back like a Bosnian. So a lot of times when that happens with W's. Would you believe it or not young you are God you believe your God are not well deeper than you know it's not just are you a God or not you know you have done to get terms if taking all your presuppositions is the background of how you understand the text says Anna really Gestalt answer, but it's a come get it issued, so I doubt this letter, call out that it I don't think it's right for the essay. The claim that that Christians read the same passage is far more metaphorically and I don't think Christians. Christians have a theology of glorification of believers sanctification ultimate glorification of believers through Christ, and so you know to say that that we only view these passages the passages that speak of of human potential in Christ is metaphorical. I don't think that's correct. With regards to the D&C of the incident that the Psalm 82 passage and where Jesus quotes that in John 10 to those who were critiquing him for taking on the title of son of God.

It if he is quoting that to say look your law says that your God's to so why are you upset from me for saying I'm just one of you that doesn't make any kind of sense right.

He recognizes that they recognize that he is making a claim about his uniqueness and he is going to the Old Testament to show them that it makes sense for him to claim this now why it would make sense for him to claim that a claim that about Psalm 82 is is it is a question that that you know you can get into quite a bit. There are to varying various views of scholars. Some scholars believe that they were human judges in Israel that were being condemned and Psalm 80 to other scholars believe that they were angels being condemned there and Psalm 82 angels who had been given by God. Certain responsibilities over peoples of the earth and so and then and that all under the authority of Yahweh as you are saying is as a unique, uniquely majored being compared with with angels so various ways of interpreting that but it doesn't make sense to me that Jesus would be claiming hey I'm just one of you, which is ultimately the way Latter Day Saints read it yet even even Eastern Orthodox still. I've seen I have ever read really long treatises like what I read introductions to the doctor, the Estes lot passage and and so they'll use that kind of a similar context, but Eastern Orthodox are still very Trinitarian. You know they don't believe that Jesus was saying is you're saying but hey, I just want I'm just like you and him exactly like you not like the God just like you like your God are.were all divine. Don't say that they have a very strong theology.

They and Abbott but they do believe in. The hostess will talk about that later, but yeah they don't use of the Latter Day Saints use it and that gets iffy because slices will often quote early church fathers is supporting their view of eternal progression, but really the whole. If you understand the context of all his enemies to orthodoxy than they would understand. The third kind of abusing us quotes or misuse. That's a good segue in the next section. So thank you for doing into this number seven of the outer ring is not as we love to hear from you.

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