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Becoming Like God, Pt. 3 (LDS Gospel Topics Essay Series)

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July 11, 2021 1:10 pm

Becoming Like God, Pt. 3 (LDS Gospel Topics Essay Series)

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July 11, 2021 1:10 pm

Hey Fireflies! Welcome to this bonus episode of Outer Brightness: From Mormon to Jesus. The Apostate Paul here. I’m recording a new intro for this episode, because since Matthew the Nuclear Calvinist and I recorded this episode on July 1, the state of affairs has changed. So in this intro, I’m going to provide a quick timeline.

In 2012 or 2013, the LDS Church began publishing Gospel Topics Essays designed to allow church members to learn about difficult topics in LDS Church history and doctrine directly from the Church’s official website, rather than other online sources. These essays have the imprimatur of the First Presidency of the LDS Church and acknowledge the reliance on the work of scholars in crafting the essays.

In the early 2000’s, when I was in the midst of my period of deep questioning and wrestling with my Mormon beliefs—what many call a faith crisis—there were many online apologetics resources, FAIR, SHIELDS, Ask Gramps. I remember that in the discussion boards, if someone posted an article from one of those resources in response to a question, it was often lamented that LDS Church leadership did not put their stamp of approval on those answers. Struggling members wondered if they could trust the apologetic resources. Many surmise that The Gospel Topics Essays were designed to do just that—to inoculate church members against difficult topics.

The relationship of the LDS Church to the essays, however, has been thorny. The essays are not easy to find on the website, and you won’t stumble on them unless you know what you’re looking for. Many who have left over the past 7-8 years have cited the essays as sources that caused them to question their beliefs and noted that when they spoke with local ecclesiastical leaders about the essays and the questions they caused, many local leaders were not even aware of their existence.

On June 23, Fred Anson shared with us that one of the Gospel Topics Essays—the one titled “Becoming Like God”—had disappeared from the LDS Church’s website, but was still available in the Gospel Library app available for mobile devices. Matthew and I had already discussed doing a series of episodes on the essays, so we fast tracked this one. We recorded this episode on July 1st.

At that time, the link for the “Becoming Like God” essay was still on the website: churchofjesuschrist.org, but it redirected to a different essay titled “Are Mormons Christian?” The disappearance of the “Becoming Like God” essay was widely noted in online ex-Mormon communities, and many were speculating that maybe the LDS Church was seeking to distance itself from the doctrines discussed therein—doctrines which perhaps more than any other LDS doctrines place Mormonism outside the mainstream of orthodox Christian beliefs. The fact that the link redirected to an essay aimed at answering the question “are Mormons Christian?” furthered that speculation.

On Tik-Tok, an ex-Mormon named “Exmo Lex” noted that the Frequently Asked Questions section of the Newsroom section of the LDS Church website expressly denies that Latter-day Saint scripture or doctrine teaches that exalted Mormons will get their own planets, even though LDS leaders have taught that as doctrine for almost two centuries and as recently as 2018, when current LDS prophet and president, Russell M. Nelson taught the traditional LDS doctrine on this point when he said,

"A fourth gift from our Savior is actually a promise—a promise of life everlasting. This does not mean simply living for a really, really, really long time. Everyone will live forever after death, regardless of the kingdom or glory for which they may qualify. Everyone will be resurrected and experience immortality, but eternal life is so much more than a designation of time. Eternal life is the kind and quality of life that Heavenly Father and his beloved Son live. When the Father offers us everlasting life he is saying in essence, “If you choose to follow my Son, if your desire is really to become more like him, then in time you may live as we live and preside over worlds and kingdoms as we do."

It seemed odd that the LDS Church would seemingly be distancing itself from this doctrine, but the LDS Church has repudiated core doctrine and practice before.

Over the weekend of July 3 and 4th, the essay in the mobile app began to disappear for those users whose apps had completed content refreshes. On the website no longer rerouted. It simply became circular, such that if you clicked the link for “Becoming Like God” you landed on another page with a link to “Becoming Like God.” It’s almost as if the LDS Church was trolling and the link became like the “eternity mirrors” in the sealing rooms of their temples.

Then on July 7th, the essay appeared back online. I used archive.org’s Wayback Machine to pull a version from May 18th and compared it to the July 7th version to see if edits had been made. The only change was the removal of the original publication date of February 2014.

So for now we close this odd bit of Mormon History still unsure why the essay disappeared for a couple weeks and which declaration of the LDS Church should be taken as doctrine: that made by the LDS Newsroom staff or that made by the current prophet and president of the church.

Even so, Matthew and I read each section of the essay in this episode and discuss it.

Link to “Becoming Like God” Gospel Topics Essay

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/becoming-like-god?lang=eng

Link to FAQ’s # 11 & 12

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/frequently-asked-questions

Link to Russell M. Nelson’s 2018 Christmas Devotional Address

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOIxEU2trOk

Link to referenced podcast episodes about Origen

https://wordandtable.simplecast.com/episodes/origen

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-first-centuries-part-07-origen/id435665417?i=1000382806203

https://historyofphilosophy.net/origen

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You're entering outer brightness.

Hey, Fireflies. This is the third part of a multi-part episode on the LDS Church's Gospel Topics essay titled, Becoming Like God. If you haven't listened to parts one and two, you may wish to go back and do so.

In this final part, we're bringing you the final five parts of the essay. What has been taught in the church about divine nature since Joseph Smith? Does belief in exaltation make Latter-day Saints polytheists? How do Latter-day Saints envision exaltation? How important are teachings about exaltation to Latter-day Saint beliefs overall? And the conclusion. We hope you enjoy.

Okay. Section is titled, What has been taught in the church about divine nature since Joseph Smith? Since that sermon in reference to the king, oh, sorry, it already says, I'll start over. Since that sermon, known as the King's Fall of Discourse, the doctrine that humans can progress to exaltation and godliness has been taught within the church. Lorenzo Snow, the church's fifth president, coined a well-known couplet, as man now is, God once was, as God now is, man may be.

Little has been revealed about the first half of this couplet and consequently little is taught. When asked about this topic, church president Gordon B. Hinckley told a reporter in 1987, quote, that gets into some pretty deep theology that we don't know very much about, close quote. When asked about the belief in humans' divine potential, President Hinckley responded, quote, well, as God is, man may become.

We believe in eternal progression, very strongly, close quote. Eliza R. Snow, a church leader and poet, rejoiced over the doctrine that we are, in a full and absolute sense, children of God. Quote, I had learned to call thee father through thy spirit from on high, she wrote, but until the key of knowledge was restored, I knew not why, close quote. Latter-day Saints have also been moved by the knowledge that their divine parentage includes a heavenly mother as well as a heavenly father. Expressing that truth, Eliza R. Snow asked, in the heavens, are parents single?

And answered with a resounding no. Truth eternal tells me I have a mother there. That knowledge plays an important role in Latter-day Saint Paul. As Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles wrote, our theology begins with heavenly parents.

Our highest aspiration is to be like them. Humankind's divine nature and potential for exaltation have been repeatedly taught in general conference addresses, church magazines, and other church materials. While Latter-day Saint young women recite their theme, each affirms, I am a beloved daughter of heavenly parents with a divine nature and eternal destiny. Teaching on human beings' divine parentage, nature, and potential features prominently in The Family, a proclamation to the world.

Divine nature and exaltation are essential and beloved teachings in the church. All right, so I talked a little bit earlier about the placard that my uncle Carl got from my dad and which hung in our house and had the first three verses of the great prologue on it and how I would sit and read it as a teenager and really kind of puzzle over what it was saying about the logos compared with what I was receiving as teachings about the nature of God and humanity from my studies in the Latter-day Saint faith. And I really struggled with it because I could see that John 1 was teaching that Jesus was utterly unique in his pre-existence. And yet I was being taught at church that that was not the case that, in fact, I myself and everyone else born into humanity was also in the beginning with God in the way that John 1 says that the logos was. And as you noted earlier, Matthew, Latter-day Saints, they have to kind of sidestep around the conclusion that if John 1 says that the logos was in the beginning with God and was God, then you have to ask the question, okay, if I was also in the beginning with God, why is it not also appropriate to say that I was God in the beginning? Latter-day Saints have to deal with that in their theology. But it made me uncomfortable. That placard in my home as a teenager made me uncomfortable with that teaching of Latter-day Saint theology to the point that before I was leaving on my mission, I was making a trip to Idaho, where my mom is from, with my parents. It was just the three of us in the car.

I can't remember the circumstances of why it was just the three of us in the car. But we were on I-15 north of the Brigham City exit heading out towards Tremonton. And I don't know if you've ever been up that far on I-15, Matthew, but you have the mountains over by Brigham City and the pass that goes over from Brigham City to Cache Valley to Logan and Preston, where my cousins are from. But those mountains are beautiful. And the sky out there is just big. They talk about Montana, big sky. You get that up there in northern Utah, southern Idaho.

And it's just gorgeous. And we were driving and I was soon to leave on my mission. I was reading through the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith that I picked up at Deseret Book. It was one of the books that I picked up to really try to understand my faith as I was getting ready to go out and preach Mormonism to the world. So, and I had that book with me and my dad asked me to read the King Follett sermon, which is in there, and the sermon on Sermon in the Grove, which is in there. And I remember reading through, I was reading aloud in the car to my parents, the King Follett sermon and my dad and I were having this conversation, deep conversation.

What does this all mean about the nature of humanity, the nature of God? And it was making my mom uncomfortable because she was a very, I don't want to sound derogatory towards my mother. It's not that she didn't understand and think about Mormon theology. She did. She was a temple worker. She was a genealogist who did family history for lots of people so that they could get their family names ready to take through the temple. She was somebody who deeply understood LDS theology, but she was somebody who didn't like the controversial aspects of Mormon theology. And so it was making her uncomfortable.

I was already uncomfortable with it. And I really, in the early months of my mission, when I was in the MTC, I read through the King Follett sermon multiple times because I wanted to understand what it was saying about God. I wanted to reconcile it with what I understood from John 1.

And I really struggled through that. And I got to the place in study where I said to myself, okay, I don't fully understand what Joseph Smith was teaching here. I don't fully understand how it fits with John 1. And I don't fully understand how it fits with what even the Book of Mormon says about the nature of the atonement needing to be infinite and that only an infinite being could carry out an infinite atonement.

If Jesus was once an intelligence like I was, according to Smith, and progressed and God the Father even progressed from intelligence to mortal to immortal, exalted being, then none of them, neither of them are infinite beings in the sense that I understood the Book of Mormon to be saying was necessary for the atonement. And I really wrestled with that. But I got to the point where I was willing to say, okay, I don't understand this all.

Maybe I will. I'm going to accept it as my theology, even if I don't understand it all right now and I trust that I will later. So this essay quotes from Gordon B. Hinckley telling a reporter in 1997, which is exactly when I was on my mission.

And he said, this gets into some pretty deep theology that we don't know very much about. I was on my mission. I was in the third area of my mission.

Sorry, no, I was in the fourth area of my mission in a city called Szeged in southern Hungary. And we were allowed to, there was a video cassette of this interview that President Hinckley had given. I believe it was with Mike Wallace. I believe that's the interview that's quoted here. And it was being passed around the mission for missionaries to watch because he was our president and our prophet and he was speaking to the press and it was important for us to see what he was saying. So it was our turn in Szeged where I was the district leader to watch this video.

It came down with some of the office elders and we took it over to the branch house where we had a VCR and a TV and we watched it. And I remember a sinking and sick feeling in my gut when I heard President Hinckley say that gets us into some pretty deep theology that we don't know much about because I had pored over this book to understand what Joseph Smith was teaching and what he intended by the words that he used. And I want to quote what he says here because I don't think it's consistent with what Elder or what President Hinckley says there and I don't think it's consistent with what the essay says here. Joseph Smith says as the father hath power in himself so hath the son power in himself to lay down his life and take it again so he has a body of his own. The son doeth what he hath seen the father do then the father hath some day laid down his life and taken it again so he has a body of his own.

Each one will be in his own body and yet the sectarian world believe the body of the son is identical with the father's. So he's in some sense he's making the critique of what he understood the Trinity to be here which is not correct. He's critiquing modalism I know Latter-day Saints are going to go no the modalism charge but it is what Joseph Smith was teaching there as he was critiquing modalism not the actual doctrine of the Trinity.

But he says that the father had a mortal probation and he says it not only there but he says it in the sermon in the grove and he says in the sermon in the grove that the father has a father and a grandfather and all the way back. So when when President Hinckley kind of said that this gets into some pretty deep theology that we don't really know much about it hurt me because I had really tried to force myself to imbibe and believe this theology that Smith had taught contrary to what I understood John 1 to be saying. So I bring that up because the essay kind of does this to what President Hinckley did and President Hinckley at the next general conference told people that you know they need they need not worry that he doesn't understand what Latter-day Saint doctrine is.

He understands and he kind of gave a wink and a nod and those in the in the audience kind of laughed you know as if it's as if it is appropriate to not be upfront with others you're speaking to about what your theology actually is when you're being asked about it. And it really made me that that made me it was one of the things that really made me begin begin to question my faith because if the prophet who was called to be the leader of the faith and the one who was called to receive revelation and teach true doctrine was willing to go out and speak to a reporter and not be fully truthful about what we believe. What does that say about the teaching?

Does it imply that the teaching is problematic? That the president and prophet of the church is not willing to stand boldly and proclaim it to the world? So anyway just that's that that's kind of my thoughts in a nutshell on this section what are your thoughts Matthew?

Yeah great stuff thanks for sharing that. Yeah as a lot of it is saying that I kind of wondered why President Hinckley didn't say at least something about becoming God. It's like he just pretty much just said well we you know we don't know much about that and just kind of like just brushed it off you know. It's like you can at least say something you know like well we believe that God is our father and that we can become like him. Like you could have at least said that but he basically just said nothing right. I don't think he really even wanted to talk about it. So like that's how I explained when I was a missionary you know maybe like well you know at the MTC when you have those practice lessons they say well you know the person that you're talking to would also be obvious but he would ask you like do you believe you can become God and I said well we become become like God he's our father so why not you know like at least that's something yeah President Hinckley basically said no we don't know much about that that's it yeah and I found that kind of a little bit bothersome also but I know a lot of Latter-day Saints well not a lot but several we talked to in the groups they will say things like well the King Fall discourse is not official doctrine it's not canonized so you don't have to believe it as a Latter-day Saint but it's just so fundamental to everything LDS do temple work to for themselves for the dead you know to understanding who God is and how we are literally children of God and earlier in this essay we read quotes about how we can become like God in his fullness like like entirely like God in every way imaginable you know like have all the fullness of properties of God so it's like when you tie all this together how can you then also say well God has eternally been God and didn't become God like Christians you know like it makes no sense like it the natural and like what Joseph Smith taught and the natural conclusion is that God must have been just like us you know mortal and he progressed to godhood and some will say well he was like Jesus you know Jesus was God right and he became man and that's not what he's saying or they or they say that that quote from Smith is actually talking about Christ that Christ you know became man and that you can look into heaven and see a man Christ enthroned on the throne but that's not who he was talking about I think it's pretty clear he's talking about God the father so I think it's really been decent de-emphasized in modern LDS theology just because they know it's problematic and now that you know Christians really bring up the bible and they they see a lot of the problems there and so they kind of try to de-emphasize this whole idea of God not always being God and things like that so I don't know it seems like the LDS church is shifting quite a lot going away from what made it unique and different and now it's going trying to become more Christian but but when you do that you also gut the LDS church of what makes it the LDS church and it's like okay so are they just trying to become another Christian denomination now I don't know I don't know where the church is headed yeah yeah really good thoughts I I'm with you I don't know where they're headed they do seem in some of their communications to want to just be seen as as Christians no different than than anyone else and I I want to I want to say to our Latter-day Saint listeners I I understand that sentiment from a very personal and real perspective I married into a Southern Baptist family my wife was a convert to the LDS faith and I you know left on my mission in 1997 which is the year that the the Southern Baptist Convention held their big meeting in Salt Lake and they went door to door and I I went on splits with the missionaries in Salt Lake City in preparation for my mission and I got to hear them talk about how much it offended them that the Baptists would come to Salt Lake City and think that we're not Christians I get all of that from a real identity perspective I I understand what it is to have an identity as a Latter-day Saint I had that and I understand what it is to feel frustrated when you're told by evangelical Christians that you're not Christian I know what that feels like I wrote an email to my mother-in-law on Easter the year that my wife and I married a month before we married to encourage her to see me as a Christian because I knew that the Southern Baptists did not and you know tried to argue to her that we worship the same the same Jesus so I understand all of that from a from a an emotional and an identity perspective like I said what I would encourage Latter-day Saints to do though is is really take a look at what your theology is teaching it is critical even the Book of Mormon teaches that it's critical that Jesus the Son of God be unique and be God to carry out the atonement a man can't cannot die for another man's sins God had to be on that cross and that's critical and so when a Latter-day Saint reaches as as Brett did recently the the logical implication of what their theology is about human nature and that it makes Jesus not unique not the unique Son of God that's that's really problematic I really just would wish Latter-day Saints to think that through one other kind of thought related to this last section is it brings up Heavenly Mother like that like that there's Heavenly Parents there's a Heavenly Father and there's a Heavenly Mother I know just kind of peripherally because I see it on Facebook and I run in a lot of Mormon related Facebook groups I know that they're you know and I know that like since Kate Kelly on the ordained women movement there have been others who have taken kind of up taken up that charge and and a lot of women pushing for the latter the LDS Church to recognize the existence and of a Heavenly Mother more explicitly and and especially amongst I see this among some of the younger generation really really pushing for that it's not something I really follow too closely because I'm not really interested in it very much but I do know that it's there and I know that it's there's like a vocal I don't even know if it's a minority it seems like it's growing a vocal group within the church even if it's not cohesive it's it's it's a it's a movement within the LDS Church to push for that and I it I just wrote a note on this section of the essay you know where I asked myself the question is this why this essay is being de-emphasized is this why this essay is being shuffled aside is it not so much the theology about humanity's potential but is it that that one line about about Heavenly Mother that is problematic for those who are still in the LDS Church and the LDS Church's authority over them just a thought I had I just something I wondered so thoughts there Matthew before we go on yeah no good stuff I had a thought but I lost it so it's probably not important all right all right the sections from here are shorter so we should be able to wrap up pretty quickly next section does belief in exaltation make latter-day saints polytheists for some observers the doctrine that humans should strive for godliness may evoke images of ancient pantheons with competing deities such images are incompatible with latter-day saint doctrine latter-day saints believe that God's children will always worship him our progression will never change his identity as our Father and our God indeed our exalted eternal relationship with him will be part of the fullness of joy he desires for us latter-day saints also believe strongly in the fundamental unity of the divine they believe that God the Father Jesus Christ the Son and the Holy Ghost though distinct beings are unified in purpose and doctrine it is in this light that the latter-day saints understand Jesus's prayer for his disciples through the ages that they all may be one as thou father art in me and I in thee that they also may be one in us if humans live out live out of harmony with God's goodness they cannot grow into God's glory Joseph Smith taught that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only except upon the principles of righteousness when humans abandon God's selfless purposes and standards the heavens withdraw themselves and the Spirit of the Lord is grieved pride is incompatible with self-progress disunity is impossible between exalted beings Matthew thoughts on this section not a whole lot we already brought up the idea that they don't believe that we can be higher than God they're always subject to God I would recommend for in terms of how whether God is one in essence or in being or whether he's one in purpose to go back to our episodes on the Trinity we talk a lot more about that in depth but I think it doesn't really it kind of brings up the the charge of polytheism and then kind of compares it to like ancient Greek and Roman mythology with pantheons with competing deities is what it says and says well that's all we believe I mean that's silly you know like so you can't call us polytheists but I think it doesn't really even address the the charge of polytheism it just kind of says well we're not like those crazy Romans and Greeks you know so like what's the big deal and then it says that they're basically different gods united in purpose and it's like okay well I mean that's polytheism I mean polytheism is just more than one God so I mean are you denying polytheism are you admitting to it I don't know it doesn't really give a clear answer yeah yeah good thought there I agree with that so I kind of highlighted a couple of phrases fundamental unity and disunity is impossible between exalted beings I want to ask why that would be the case because the whole kind of crux of LDS theology is and specifically LDS cosmology is free will right Jehovah stepped forward and presented the father's plan that contra Calvinism man would have free will and Lucifer stepped forward and presented the Calvinist plan which entails no free will like at least at least in that caricature version of it and you know if that if that be the case then does free will cease to be a thing in the celestial kingdom are those who are exalted do they cease to have free will if not then there is at least the potential for disunity I don't think it's possible to say that disunity is impossible among exalted beings thoughts on that Matthew yeah I've gotten different answers about whether God has free will to do X Y or Z I don't think I think they don't want to touch that with the 10-foot pole mostly and I kind of don't blame them because yeah they want they want God to be completely free but at the same time they know that's a problem if they could say that God could sin you know or that God could lie or that God could say I'm not God and contradict himself yeah I don't know about this this whole disunity among exalted beings I guess I could see it in the sense of like you know they LDSC conflict is sin any kind of conflict what does it has a Bible the Book of Mormon passage go it's like you know the spirit of contention is a spirit of the devil basically and so they probably see that as like well since God is free of sin then there's no there's no you know contention you know so therefore you know they can't have any disunity amongst them so maybe that's the kind of logical route they go down okay but yeah maybe but I mean that in their cosmology Lucifer stepped forward and rebelled right and Lucifer according to their cosmology was a son of the morning right so not the firstborn spirit son as Jehovah was but one of the first and one of the most well-regarded maybe I don't know what word to use until he fell right until he rebelled against the plan of God and so if that be the case and Lucifer could do that there because free will what would stop an exalted being what what what is it about gaining a body that would stop an exalted being from rebelling and so it's just there's a claim made here like you were saying you know they compare it with the pantheon the ancient Greek pantheons and say that that's ridiculous right and then there's a claim made that that kind of thing is impossible but there's no authoritative statement from LDS scripture cited there on that statement this is why we think it's impossible because Joseph you know God revealed XYZ to Joseph Smith about this so yeah I just wanted to that's that's my only note on that section. I just wanted to briefly state too the John 17 passage that they quote so here's a quote that they that they write it is in this light the latter-day saints understand Jesus's prayer for his disciples through the ages and then they quote John 17 that they may not be one as thou father me and I and be that they also may be one in us close quote so I don't really have a problem with the understanding that this this is Jesus praying for his people to be unified in purpose and in will just as Christ and the father are united in will you know we don't believe that Jesus was praying for them to become one in essence but the father but just as just as latter-day saints rebut the argument that God is spirit from John 4 24 you know they say well it doesn't say God is only spirit well I would say here that Jesus isn't saying that Jesus and the father aren't only united in will you know so yeah that's great a really good point there I like it all right so next section this one's yours I think I read two in a row I apologize I don't know if you did I think I read the part about family proclamation to the world I think I read that part so I think I think we're okay okay you're listening to outer brightness a podcast for post Mormons who are drawn by God to walk with Jesus rather than turn away outer brightness outer brightness outer brightness there's no weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth here except when Michael's hangry that is angry that is angry that is we were all born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints headquartered in Salt Lake City Utah more commonly referred to as the Mormon faith all of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ based on biblical teachings the name of our podcast outer brightness reflects John 1 9 which calls Jesus the true light which gives light to everyone we have found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told it would be and the light we have is not our own it comes to us from without thus outer brightness our purpose is to share our journeys of faith and what God has done in drawing us to his son we have conversations about all aspects of that transition the fears challenges joys and everything in between we're glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around how do latter-day saints envision exaltation since human conceptions of reality are necessarily limited in mortality religions struggle to adequately articulate their visions of eternal glory as the apostle Paul wrote quote I have not seen nor ear heard neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love him close quote these limitations make it easy for images of salvation to become cartoonish when represented in popular culture for example scriptural scriptural expressions of the deep peace and overwhelming joy of salvation are often reproduced in the well-known image of humans sitting on their own clouds and playing harps after death latter-day saints doctrine of exaltation is often similarly reduced in media to a cartoonish image of people receiving their own planets a cloud and harp are hardly a satisfying image for eternal joy although most Christians would agree that inspired music could be a tiny foretaste of the joy of eternal salvation likewise while few latter-day saints would identify with caricatures of having their own planet most would agree that the awe inspired by creation hints at our creative potential in the eternities latter-day saints tend to imagine exaltation through the lens of the sacred in mortal experience they see the seeds of godhood in the joy of bearing and nurturing children and the intense love they feel for those children in the impulse to reach out in compassionate service to others in the moments they are caught off guard by the beauty and order of the universe in the grounding feeling of making and keeping divine covenants church members imagine exaltation less through images of what they will get and more through the relationships that they have now and how those relationships might be purified and elevated as the scriptures teach quote that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there only it will be coupled with eternal glory which glory we do not now enjoy close quote i think that's doctrine and covenants do you know what passage that's from uh what's the site on it which number excuse me uh 51 it is dnc 130 verse 2 and that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there only it will be coupled with eternal glory which glory we do not now enjoy right so what do you think about this passage well i mean about the the section the section um so i made a couple of notes uh one is i highlighted you know the the use of the word cartoonish and caricature um and i agree i want to say the latter-day saints i agree that cartoonish caricatures of one another's theologies is never appropriate and never a good approach to dialoguing with one another but the statement that says likewise while few latter-day saints would identify with caricatures of having their own planet most would agree that the awe inspired by creation hints at our creative potential in the eternities so on the one hand they want to say we don't like the cartoonish nature of the god makers but we agree with the underlying premise so yeah i know latter-day saints don't like uh when when christians uh come at them and be like oh you believe you're going to be a god of your own planet um but but i think i think ultimately that and and i think the essay recognizes this ultimately that's that's the logical end of of joseph smith's teachings about creation or continuation of the seeds what it means what what that all means the way latter-day saint leaders have handled that uh and and and kind of um tying that with the with procreation in this life um so i know that all makes can make latter-day saints squeamish but um you know i think it is the the ultimate end of of what your theology teaches yeah good point so i wanted to say too that yeah when i when i ask lds about this this whole idea about creation and you know the eternal the eternal round as it is the book of ron kind of calls it um i don't really bring up the idea of like you're gonna you're gonna be like owning a whole planet because yeah i think the i think the article's right and the lds don't really focus so much on possessions in terms of the eternal inheritance it's more about children and relationships continuing on but so i kind of try to tap into that by asking them okay so if you believe that you'll have a similar maybe not exact similar relationship to your spirit spirit children that you have with god now do you look forward to your children billions of children bowing down and worshiping and some will avoid it uh you know some don't really give a clear answer and some will say yes you know they follow the plan of salvation just like i follow the plan of salvation but i think that should be kind of strange to be wanting worship i don't know like as humans we're kind of narcissistic by nature we want to be recognized we want to be seen as you know special or whatever but to to make the jump to where you hope to become worshipped by your children is a strange thing you know at least it is to me i don't know what do you think about that um yeah i think it's a good point especially in light of uh you know some of the criticism that i've seen latter-day saints levy uh against us as christians uh when we present uh god as creating um you know they'll often ask the question because they think latter-day saint theology has a ready answer for it and that christian theology does not so they will ask well why did god create ah gotcha right why did why did god even make you um and they you know they think that they have this ready-made answer because well there were these intelligences and as an as a you know essay quoted earlier god saw himself among these beings and said well i want to give them the the ability to progress as i have so that's that's the latter-day saint answer um and latter-day saints will ask that question and then they'll uh kind of pillory any answer we give as oh god did that all for his glory really that's a that's a cocky and and presumptuous god isn't it you know you've heard that that kind of line of rhetoric that we get right yeah for sure so how is how is that different than a god who has progressed to godhood and creates eternal progeny for his glory which is joseph smith's teaching and that his glory grows the more eternal progeny he has how is that different so a double-edged sword i think there uh you know i sometimes i just like to point out the areas where um even if you know if you're approaching theology uh like latter-day saints like to do from a perspective of oh what's better what has the better answers right we we should as i started with dr cottrell's quote approach theology from the perspective of what has god said um but a lot but often latter-day saints like to to approach it from what what is what has the better answers right um so if you're going to approach theology from the perspective of which has the better answers i like to sometimes point out those areas where i think it's a wash right we may not be able to say uh why god created except that the bible says he did it all for his glory right for her for my own glory have i done these things uh as the bible teaches um so if if you're if you're a latter-day saint you're going to critique that understand that when when christians take that position they're taking it on the word of god they're not taking it from the perspective of my theology is better um they're taking it on the word of god and what god has revealed about himself and so um you know if you if you think you got a better answer i think that's one where it's kind of a wash but we're taking it on the word of god yeah i think and i think it's also still valid to say that god does save his chill you know he does save children he does adopt you know um you know humans and to become his his adopted children and redeems them and saves them and glorifies them because he's a loving god because we do believe god is love and so he does he does allow us to partake of the divine nature as we've been talking about and and to become more like christ out of his sense of lovingness and compassion and wanting to kind of share and and you know and joy with others so it's not like christians are saying well we're going to be miserable in heaven on our hearts you know and and like you know god is only doing this for his glory and we're just gonna have to suck it up and just deal with that kind of thing you know like god does he does share his you know he does share joy and happiness with us but that's not the ultimate and highest goal you know the highest goal you know the most important goal for god is is to glorify himself to make his his his glory known to all of his creation kind of a thing so just wanted to point that out and and one final thought on kind of continuing that that line of thinking there is that um you know the christian theological position with regards to why did god create is that he didn't need to he didn't need us right um the the trinitarian god had within itself uh sociality as joseph smith would say and love for the various persons of the trinity one for the other um perfect love um and so god did not lack god the lover did not lack a beloved um in the sense that he needed to create um but on on lds theology if you if you take what this essay is saying about human potential to become like god create progeny like god all of all of that logical uh all those logical steps that this essay presents from lds theology if i am if i am taking lds theology as truth i have to become exalted to have a continuation of the continuation of the seeds i have to become exalted to become everything that god is and therefore i have to do the ordinances that you were talking about earlier including eternal marriage and in joseph smith's day that included uh polygamous marriage um not just eternal marriage to one spouse um so there in in latter-day saint theology uh juxtaposed against uh christian theology there there is actually a need uh for god to have progeny to be uh all that god is right whereas uh for god on the christian view he did not need to create there was no need uh inherent there so there there's there's a difference there um one other thought i had here i'm trying to get my mind back around to it um i might not get there uh what was it man i don't want to sound cocky but it was a good thought it's a stupor of thought the spirit's telling you not to say it yeah yeah oh no i wanted to come back around to you know the whole uh theocentric versus anthropocentric uh theology and where your starting point is are you starting with god or are you starting with human and reasoning up with human are you starting with humanity and reasoning up um and also what i said earlier with regards to origin and the other church father fathers and their historical context and how important that is to understanding uh what they were writing what they were writing against uh what they were supporting um it's important also to take into account joseph smith's historical context um when you're thinking about what his theology was especially as you think about the development of his theology towards this becoming like god and the crowning revelation that he has on that is doctrine and covenants 132 which is the revelation on plural marriage um so if you're going to take joseph smith as an actual human being who was thinking and living a real human life he was in the midst of plural marriage from at least as early as fanny al alger right which is an undocumented plural marriage of joseph smith um oliver coudrey his counselor and and scribe for most of the translation of the book of mormon called it an affair said he caught them in the barn fanny alger was a young woman who lived and was a servant in the in the smith household and we know that joseph smith married uh many other uh wives some of them uh the wives of of men who were sent on missions orson hide uh was sent on a mission and joseph smith proposed marriage to marinda hide so um when you think about that context and what joseph smith teaches in doctrine and covenants 132 understand that all of this is is support for all everything that's presented in this essay is support for ultimately his theology of uh plural marriage um and then and i know latter-day saints don't um you know i i'm not trying to get into the squeamish areas of this but i just wanted to make make the point that it's important to think about the context of what was going on with joseph smith when this theology really began to to develop in his in his teachings and in his writings thoughts on that matthew yeah i think it all i agree with you it's all intertwined it all goes together all right so that brings us to the next section uh how important are teachings about exaltation to latter-day saints latter-day saint beliefs overall the teaching that human beings have a divine nature and future shapes the way latter-day saints view fundamental doctrine perhaps most significantly belief in divine nature helps us more deeply appreciate the atonement of jesus christ while many christian theologians have expressed the magnitude of the savior's atonement by emphasizing human depravity latter-day saints understand the magnitude of the atonement of christ in terms of the vast human potential it makes possible christ's atonement not only provides forgiveness from sin and victory over death it also redeems imperfect relationships heals the spiritual wounds that stifle growth and strengthens and enables individuals to develop the attributes of christ latter-day saints believe that it is only through the atonement of jesus christ that we can have a sure hope of eternal glory and that the power of his atonement is fully accessed only by faith in jesus christ repentance baptism receiving the gift of the holy ghost and enduring to the end in following the instruction and example of christ those who thus those who become like god and enter into a fullness of his glory are described as people who have been made perfect through jesus the mediator of the new covenant who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood an awareness of humans divine potential also influences latter-day saints understanding of gospel principles such as the importance of divine commandments the role of temples and the sanctity of individual moral agency belief that human beings are actually god's children also changes latter-day saints behavior and attitudes for example even in societies where casual and premarital casual and premarital sex are considered acceptable latter-day saints retain a deep reverence for the god-given procreative and bonding powers of human sexual intimacy and remain committed to a higher standard in the use of those sacred powers studies suggest that latter-day saints place an exceptionally high priority on marriage and parenthood a consequence in part of a strong belief in heavenly parents and a commitment to strive for that divinity what are your thoughts on that section matthew a lot of what they said at least when i was lds i would have agreed with like it makes a lot of sense and since they believe that they're created in god you know they're created as literal children of god and they have the spark of divinity in them the seeds of godhood that eventually if you hope to become a god you've got to become what god is so you know god is chased god is you know god is sinless so that's what we were to strive toward but then as i was as you as you're reading it again made me think well okay but but christians also believe that we're made in the image of god not the literal physical image but we're given certain faculties intellectual moral capacities and responsibilities that no other creation has and because of that we're you know we we have analogically we represent god in the world you know just by just humans and ourselves even if we're not you know perfectly christian you know we glorify god in the sense that when someone does something good or nice to you that that's kind of like a tiny glimpse of the goodness the ultimate and infinite goodness of god and so because we're made in god's image we can say all the same things because we're in god's image we need to be chased we need to respect our bodies and the procreative powers were given because we're made in the image of god we should respect each other we should you know we place a high priority on marriage and parenthood you know so a lot of those same things apply to us but we just don't connect it to becoming like you know becoming gods we connect it to being made in god's image and wanting to love god and glorify god yeah really good point i um i i made some notes that are to that effect you said it much more much better than i would have um i i was just noting the things that they uh say you know that um christ's atonement not only provides forgiveness from sin and victory over death so right there they kind of seem to me to want to be saying here's what christians traditionally believe that christ's atonement provides forgiveness from sin and victory over death but latter-day saint understanding helps us know that it also redeems perfect relationships heals the spiritual wounds that stifle growth and strengthens and enables individuals to develop the attributes of christ that somehow their their view of exaltation and human potential and human nature as already divine makes the makes uh lds theology uh uniquely able to speak to how the atonement does these other things and i i just made the note like um that they lay it out as if only lds believe that christ's atonement redeems imperfect relationships and heals the spiritual wounds that stifle growth and strengthens and enables individuals to develop the attributes of christ that's just not true christians have believed that now for centuries uh that's that's the whole point is that uh christians do believe that through sanctification if you want to call it um uh what's the eastern orthodox term uh slip in my mind right now theosis or you want to call it theosis divinization if you want to call it uh taking on the mind of christ as paul would have put it all of these things mean to christians the same thing right that god through the holy spirit is sanctifying us and making us more and more like christ um so that ultimately we will take on uh the uh divine nature right uh latter day saint theology says you have that divine nature inherently from the beginning um so anyway um i would again argue that unless christ is unique his atonement does nothing and the the biblical teaching is that christ is utterly unique and thank god he is yeah amen as you're as you're talking also i was thinking about how uh oh man i'm losing the thought again i'm losing it uh talking about theosis divinization coming like god oh yeah so yeah we might talk about different methods or instruments through which we become like christ you know like orthodox talk about the energies and operations of god the energy yeah that's how you know and that's the uncreated energies of god and that's and that's how they can become partakers of the divine nature but they're not partaking of god's divine essence because that's uniquely you know appropriate to god they kind of describe it that way and then in the west we kind of more describe it as grace you know like we receive god's grace and that transforms us you know through the working of the holy spirit so it's like we might have slightly different understandings as how this process all works but yeah i agree with you that uh you know we're we're being changed transformed and become like christ and the atonement definitely is core to that all right i didn't have any other notes on this section so that brings us to the conclusion i know yeah three hours and 20 minutes in we're at the conclusion yeah i don't know how we thought we were going to get this done in like an hour last weekend yeah i'm glad we ended up pushing it off okay conclusion all human beings are children of loving heavenly parents and possess seeds of divinity within them in his infinite love god invites his children to cultivate their eternal potential by the grace of god through the atonement of the lord jesus christ the doctrine of humans eternal potential to become like their heavenly father is central to the gospel of jesus christ and inspires love hope and gratitude in the hearts of faithful latter-day saints all right um all human beings are children of loving loving heavenly parents and possess the seeds of divinity within them is that is that language possess the seeds of divinity within them is that language that you were familiar with as a latter-day saint or does that strike you as something maybe a newer way to try to try to cast this teaching i don't know if i heard specifically seeds of divinity but there is a talk by spencer w kimball and he might have done it several times where he talks about having the seeds of godhood so he did use that phraseology and i think that might even be in like you know the presence of the church you know the church teaching manual it might have also said it in there i vaguely have a memory of that but yeah so i did i did hear seeds of godhood within us um maybe a quick wrap uh just want to get your thoughts on uh you know because one of the one of the bible passages they'll often quote is um and if and if heirs joint heirs with christ and heirs of everything right so what is your thought on that what are your thoughts on that passage uh do you think it's teaching that latter-day saints what what latter-day saints understand that to be teaching that that they will become that we will become gods ourselves in the same way that that god is god so christ a lot of times when it talks about christ it's speaking to him in his humanity in a sense and i and so we have to understand it from that perspective so when it says that we are co-heirs with christ um so christ is the god man so he's both god and man and so uh he he is he basically is the king of king and lord of lords of all creation you know as the god man he's the exalted man so there is no man that's greater than in creation and so when it says that we will be co-heirs with him it doesn't mean that we'll become gods it means that we when we are in glory as resurrected you know glorified children of god we will also inherit all of god's creation you know we'll partake in it we'll be able to explore all of god's creation and his goodness and in our bodies we'll be able to experience it as as he desired us to experience it from the beginning and so in that sense we'll inherit it doesn't mean that we'll inherit all of who god is and his divine nature and attributes yeah very good all right um so we began the episode tonight uh talking about how uh this essay has seemingly been de-emphasized um on the lds church's own website where the link to this epi this essay is now redirecting to a different gospel topics essay uh titled our mormon's christian um we've talked a lot about the theology we've talked a lot about how matthew and i both understand uh emotionally uh theologically what it is to be a latter-day saint and have uh christians uh maybe make fun of your theology and uh make it cartoonish uh we hope we haven't done that tonight we hope we've tried to we've tried to quote from relevant sources including joseph smith but we you know we ultimately got to the place where we also talked about president hinkley de-emphasizing these doctrines and how that impacted us and i have to ask the question why are these doctrines why did why did hinkley de-emphasize it why is the the gospel topics essay now being redirected to a different uh link uh for you not to read uh this particular gospel topics essay um and i just cite uh and and refer to romans 116. the gospel is based wholly on the unique son of god jesus christ uh taking on flesh uh to die for our sins uh so that we can be forgiven and we can become like him and he has to be utterly unique joseph smith before his theology began to transform and we talked about the the context in which it did transform in the book of mormon taught that jesus had to be infinite it had to be an infinite atonement wrought by an infinite being and then later his theology uh presents a non a finite being becoming infinite so um i would just cite romans 116 for i am not ashamed of the gospel of christ for it is the power of god unto salvation to everyone that believeth to the jew first and also to the greek the gospel is not something to be ashamed of that's great amen thank you for sharing we thank you for tuning into this episode of the outer brightness podcast we'd love to hear from you please visit the outer brightness podcast page on facebook feel free to send us a message there with comments or questions by clicking send a message at the top of the page and we would appreciate it if you give the page a like we also have an outer brightness group on facebook where you can join and interact with us and others as we discuss the podcast past episodes and suggestions for future episodes etc you can also send us an email at outer brightness at gmail.com we hope to hear from you soon you can subscribe to the outer brightness podcast on apple podcasts cast box google podcasts pocketcast pod beam spotify and stitcher also you can check out our new youtube channel and if you like it be sure to lay hands on that subscribe button and confirm it if you like what you hear please give us a rating and review wherever you listen and help spread the word you can also connect with michael the ex-mormon apologist at fromwater2wine.org where he blogs and sometimes paul and matthew do as well music for the outer brightness podcast is graciously provided by the talented brianna florinoi and by adams road learn more about adams road by visiting their ministry page at adamsroadministry.com stay bright flyerflies the holy one of god the word made fresh the risen son heaven and earth will pass away but the word of the lord endures forever all this world is in decay but the word of our god through ages remains so lord you promised that we as your church would remain upon this rock and the gates of hell will not prevail against us because you have power to keep your word unspoiled in purity heaven and earth will pass away but the word of the lord endures forever all this world is in decay but the word of our god through ages remains so the word that goes out from your mouth what you lord we hear your word and believe in you heaven and earth will pass away but the word of the lord endures forever all of this world is in decay but the word of our god through ages remains the word of god remains
Whisper: medium.en / 2023-09-02 20:58:33 / 2023-09-02 21:19:28 / 21

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