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July 18, 2021 1:08 am
This week, you get to join me (The Apostate Paul) as a (fire)fly on the wall for a conversation between Michael the Ex-Mormon Apologist and his brother David, a Latter-day Saint. They talk most days during their commutes, and we think that this models how to how to have effective conversations about the gospel and doctrine with family, while maintaining those important relationships.
Your right and fireflies will conduct another brightness this week we have the extreme pleasure of flies on the wall for a conversation between Michael Flournoy, Michael BX pharmacologist and his brother David so I'm going to step out at this point and just kinda cute time and let them take away. Okay, let's go on to the next update' restoration revelation. I don't have too much to say on Revelation, what would relations the next. What would you got what y'all have against Revelation.
Is there anything that you Revelation think that if you say that there is more Revelation God is given us. You have to also be saying that what we have already a.k.a. the Bible is insufficient.
Revelation implies because if there is new revelation and it says the same thing with the Bible says that we don't really need it and if it says something new, then that means the Bible is not sufficient, but it's not telling us enough so that's my problem in a nutshell, with Revelation God would continuously call prophets like he always does, but just that it would, the fact that if you does that would circumvent the Bible make incomplete is that writer yeah because as to what happens is the earliest church as an example, but it could theoretically happen with any organization that says we received continuing Revelation from God. I mean you got the Koran, but at least I think Muslims are cutting off for Mohammed was the last prophet you got multiple profits and every time you go to Gen. conference didn't stop the doctrine and covenants every time you got a general conference that is Scripture, wouldn't you say not Scripture because it's not sleep voted on by the apostles, but it is pertinent we would want to listen to, but I think if at any point they said something that is contrary to Scripture that we have say well what's going on here. That's why I feel like we can take almost any LDS belief and find at least evidences of the Bible. So for me are unable to justify a this is okay because there it points to this point so that, but yeah, so it's not like you sort of have a similar position to me then that if they said something that was against it. Either they would have to be saying something totally new. That means that the book of Mormon doctrine covenants and program price didn't tell the whole story right or their speaking and correctly mean I'm kind of curious what your thoughts would be if they didn't teach something that was contrary to Scripture where they have said things that were in accurate Blacks and the priesthood is probably one of the prime examples and I think it goes down to. These are men.
They are not perfect just like you. You taught me, shown ran away from noon but he did not want to go to the city with the opposite direction about God was still able to use them in a positive light.
I would hope that if there were something different is the ball that they would retract a situation like they did with Waxman priesthood by the so you would say that the Scripture is more of an acre than the earliest leaders. So if they say something and it's not in line with the Scriptures, you're going to believe the Scripture over the living prophets.
I feel like you're right Scripture does not always tell the full story is not something that I believe is contradictory to Scripture. And if it's coming from profit. I will, I would accept that if it was something expounding on it like let's say doctrine and covenants. What is it 132 where they talk about this is doubly George Albert Smith suggested Philly's presence like after regular justice with they have the vision of Jesus organizing this good missionary force and spirit prison that was I believe delivered in the general conference was not. Then it was added to Scripture later. Something like our Kate. Here is a whole chapter document you just going to the spirit prison and here is a revelation expounding on that for me. Hey, this is not the silly contradict but it expounds on that if the Stanford thing happen and in general conference. I think I'd be happy with that thing with with profits and rep Revelation is Moses was a modern prophet living prophets of people of his time.
Daniel was living prophets of people. This time Jeremiah and so each time God had a people. There was a living prophet that was giving specific advice to the people of those times. Daniel telling people hey we need leave Egypt across the Red Sea has no pertinence whatsoever to his situation people in this era so I do believe that prophets do have a place in in guiding the fold. So one last question jumped into the topic that you and I are the most excited to talk about here and that is you know there's certain things though you are totally timeless. For example, the gospel okay and the nature of God. I don't think those things are going to change based on our current circumstances and I think that's the biggest problem that I have with LDS Revelation, specifically, is that it goes against what the clear plain teaching of the Bible is, in fact, the book of Mormon. Even contradicts itself.
Because you see some places in there where it seems to very strongly teach the doctrine of imputed righteousness, and you find other places where exactly ask Bennett.
I does the law of Moses, save us, and he basically says you know, no yes like you for you. Not if we do not keep the commandments, we will not be saved, so you should be some different signals in their so that's my issue with but anyways imputation get into that. That sounded good. Okay, let's do this so this is something that is been kind of a roller coaster from both of us as we both believe that imputation is true, we don't exactly view of the same way, but I cannot hear your will delete. So I came up with a couple of different kinds of righteousness and is kind of your thoughts on each one of them and then we'll talk about imputed righteousness.
Okay, so the first kind of righteousness that I came up with is enabled righteousness that basically I think most LDS believe this is my position as a latter-day St., is that grace is an enabling power infected the Bible dictionary really gets this heavy grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to take hold of eternal life and to do things that they would never be able to do if they were left to their own means so thing like a God's grace is going to make stronger so that I can keep all the commandments perfectly. And then I will receive eternal life.
What are your thoughts on that particular idea.
First off, I do believe in enabling grace.
There is a Scripture talks about, you know, come unto me all you that are heavy laden spaghetti please take my yoke upon you for my burden is easy and my something is light but the ideas that you're dunking up with the Savior, and when I was in seminary or seminary teacher told us about what happens when to go to cattle rockstar evenly yoked how much more do you think that they would be able to pull and you know all of us are like work produce more. No one was going to be twice as much, but is there to oximeter evenly yoked that they're able to do six times the amount of weight that one box would've been able to do on its own policies. It seems counterintuitive so the idea of taking the Savior's yoke upon you, does mean what one believes Luke 170 I can do all things in Christ Jesus. But it does not mean that you will be perfect and that you can obtain salvation. I think anyone who has ever tried to be a true follower of Christ and is a believer in Christ and saying hey I had taken Christ on me. I am, I have his power, his strength, they are going to become depressed very quickly when they realize that they can not keep the commandments.
They will try and fail. They will try, they will fail and sometimes they make progress and sometimes they bid know they make progress in one area, they don't and another so well enabled righteousness is true, saying, and it can help to do things that you never could do like Peter would never have been able to heal the person that was asking for always upside simple on his own that wasn't enabled righteousness type thing but no one will be able to have enabled righteousness to salvation. They will not be able to be perfect, they will fail over and over again so yeah, I agree with you that I believe in and in enabled righteousness, he would not in terms of salvation at all like for me it's more about sanctification payment God's going to will not enable righteousness for sale in enabling grace where like God's going to help me that overcomes some things in my life. But yes, salvation. There is no way no how any of us are ever going to reach perfection, or the level that is required to obtain eternal life in me. The book of Mormon is pretty clear on this, that no unclean thing can enter into the presence of God say similar things yeah so we go to God with our report card and it's a A- it's just this is not good enough to be a A- to be honest I mean God cannot look at sin with the least degree of allowance so even if you are, you know, a monk in you celibacy and you know almost never committed any you call your brother Rocca in danger of hell fire me one sin you go from 102 a zero you fail so anyways so what if your parents name your brother Rocca then wiped will help kids is important because it was King David talks about how he does look on the outside appearance, but you look at from our side.
I do feel like it's a good thing that Christ is our judge because he LDS perspective, he committed the atonement. He doesn't just know everything about missions, but he literally suffered and walked in my shoes in a way that we can't quite understand so he knows my expense.
So the because of your talk about a minute ago that it drops down to zero that come from James chapter 2 verse 10, by the way, which says whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of also basically you know you mess up in one point, you know it's it's in half your nobody's going to Judgment Day with an A- on your going there was an A+ or half so that's the second category righteousness that I came up with, which is joint righteousness hurt a lot a latter-day St. say this over the pulpit. I will do my best and Christ makes up the rest of what you think about that on this really joint righteousness has to be imputed righteousness if if you really think about it. If joint righteousness is I am trying my darndest, but I keep failing but I'm trying. If Christ is giving you any of it. He's given you all of it so joint righteousness, I'm you. We may think that were doing something, but in reality the cost of our sins is so much more than anything we could possibly do. That is, it is Christ the ox was Catholic as we just finished saying like you're going to Judgment Day with an F and so there is no such thing as a joint like righteousness here like it is all Christ is our partisan half that's what we accomplished right yes yeah okay even King Benjamin teaches that he talks about how were you know, worthless and profitable survey and send you know. Even if we do keep a commandment. We do a good thing God immediately blesses us, and we have been paid.
We are still a worthless and profitable server yeah yeah beautiful he should give all the praise things with your whole soul has power to possess. We would still be unprofitable servants. So we never can come out of that infinite debt that we owe in the third category I basically came up with is earned or infused righteousness.
I guess where as we are obedient. God gives us some of his righteousness, but I think that that sort of falls under the same categories as the other two were were never going to get to the point where we earned all the righteousness that we could in my big argument with that is always been that Christ as an infinite being, and his righteousness is infinite and if he uses any percentage of that since infinity can't be divided just to give it all. Would you agree with that. Okay so then the only option that is left is imputed righteousness, which means that that righteousness actually comes from Christ himself is a one time event where you are immediately clean as if you would done on Christ had accomplished so legal I think we agree up to that point right we do agree that only the differences that we have is when does that righteousness come to you and for me the Latter Day Saints position is that when you are baptized. That is when you take upon yourself the name of Christ.
So we are always children of God the father because were spiritually let them but we are not children of Christ. So we have been baptized into this covenant with them.
So for me taking on us the name of Christ, bringing the whole armor of God. At that moment. We have been off his righteousness is honest, we are 100% clean can save in a nutshell mean Paul is talk to me and Michael stocked me. I would say that there probably are exceptions and I like to say that your imputation doesn't happen until you have a come to Jesus moment. But really, I mean the Bible says that no if you have faith even sized mustard seed, says that even if you have a desire to believe that that's all you need start. I really think that the requirements for being a Christian and for being baptized is the starting line and that is enough for imputed righteousness for him to give you all okay so this is a really really interesting to talk to you about this and a lot of the things you're saying it sounds like exactly the same things that I say since kind of area aerobic by another. There's a lot of Latter Day Saints who would listen to this and this is a new concept for them that they're not really familiar with some are even like a lot of guys are too minor, even opposed to the idea of imputed righteousness so you think of this really is something that falls in line with LDS doctrine. There is another doctrine that LDS have and evangelicals have which are different names but there identical and this is what the primary focus is for the church and it is the path of discipleship and that is the same thing as to me is the same thing as what evangelicals call segregation.
So after you for all the SF you been baptized is to get the Holy Ghost you now have all of Christ righteousness on when you die your name.
His name is on you been washed clean the blood of the Lamb and you will go to the celestial kingdom. I think it's a great point you run an article talking about this with what what about the people that were but we do back to bed for well there baptized are they able to continue sitting on the going hot there. I first open not, they cannot commit sin after they've been baptized. They are may have amputated righteousness of Christ upon them and if they accept that they will go to the celestial kingdom. So why is it any different for us in the living world as it is for them and in the other world and I think we could prompt like I'm knocking to say that there is a 1% we will never fall away, but I do think it is very difficult to lose salvation of I know evangelicals would say that you cannot lose salvation. I would say you would have to completely deny Christ. If that's the case, did you really have salvation but I think that would for me that would be the point where it say what was going on here. You just lost two points for presenting the once saved always saved doctrine is Latter Day Saints okay go. I left it blank. But the idea of discipleship and sanctification is that it's a lifelong process of trying to become more and more like the person that we are following us were Disciples of Christ we want to be like Christ. We want to forgive light, Jesus healed the ear of the Taurean that was taking him to go get with you know I computer… We want to have these attributes that were putting into our lives, but not for salvation but to be more like the one who asked the okay so there's two questions I can have no pressure. By the way on this.
The first loving you. You talked about the imputed righteousness of Christ coming upon us at the moment of baptism, but we know that there are more ordinances beyond baptism in the LDS church… Talk about the endowment specifically with the ceiling.
At least you can say let's to be to be married and have Brandon and all that but is an endowment, something that you would say is necessary for us to have righteousness if we've already got the full righteousness of Christ. Absolutely not and I preaches from the pulpit said one of the things that we need to be saved. Multiple versus base repentance being baptized in the Holy Ghost. Enduring to the end.
Those are the only things that we need to actually do is Latter Day Saints to be saved. Screw enduring to the end replace it with discipleship. That's that's our salvation. We know those four things once we've had imputed righteousness imputed honest we are naturally going to endurance and we are naturally going to be a disciple of Christ, what the temple does has nothing to do with salvation at all and has everything to do with what we are doing in the next world endowment and I'm knocking it too much into it but the promised blessing is that we will be kings and queens that so that is a title leadership that we would then rather than just being a citizen of heaven, and then exultation you are married with your spouse. Okay so just to clarify, so somebody who is baptized, receive the Holy Ghost and then doesn't get married, for whatever reason they are worthy enough to be exalted. They just don't have spouse that what you're saying yes this is where can I get it. It's nice the actual handbook talks about people that are single in the church in a defined list, but there was this wonderful fifth hours or third hour Sunday to be home for Sunday where they answered, think straight on the church handbook and I'm not exactly sure where it's at. But it was addressing this issue and it specifically said that the church doctrine is people have not had the opportunity to be married will have the opportunity and the millennium so if you are 100% worthy and let's do you have autism or you got abusing your first marriage and you were bitter and he had a hard time finding love again for your bald or you as I there is probably what is it like 30% or more of the population of the adult membership is single so this is something that has been addressed that there will be every opportunity for that unity died without so the living don't actually need the temple at regular wasn't for baptisms for the dad exultation could still totally happen effects. Even the dead don't need the temple because except for baptism, because all that stuff can be arranged in the next life right ideally. It's in the millennium and that's what the old gospel principles mail talked about that and we talked about this before to that LDS position is that after the earth is burning Christ comes for his millennial reign.
That is not just members of the church that I can be baptized but it can be any believer in Christ, so I'll be there. Mike will be there. Ideally I will be there any anyone who believes in Christ will be there and so it says that there will be two main works going on during the millennium. The first is missionary work and the second support, and eventually there will be missionary work anymore will all be simple work. I do feel like after the millennium is completed and we had everyone's final judgment yet at that point you missed the boat but I mean there's can be plenty of opportunity. I don't think that anyone is going to have to worry about going without. Okay let me move on to make my last question about imputed righteousness. We can talk about this book because it's the main sticking point for us because obviously if Christ imputed righteousness comes to us. Faith then everything that you kind of heaven's aim of the temple would also be true about baptism. There's really no need for the LDS church at all.
At that point right if it comes up face just came up face and that's this that is the point that lead you away from the church.
If I'm not mistaken. It is because I was pretty much sitting exactly where you are. For a while I just didn't hold on as long as trying to take the position that imputed righteousness occurs at baptism okay so me and my last you know five or six months of the Latter Day Saints on the exact same pages you right now Mike, this is you, I believe that because of baptism, but that it you know there is a lot of there's a lot of verses and we can talk about them, but I came to believe that that in imputed righteousness comes at face and the problem was a micro cable that righteousness includes all the acts of good and keeping God's law that Christ did while he was alive, and Jesus was baptized.
If the LDS church is true the restoration he was gone throughout temple ordinances and so why do I need to do that. If that righteousness is already imputed to me and so yes that is the main catalyst that had me leave the church and has me staying out of the church. I don't care as much about all the other things like. To me this is the gospel of imputation that faith alone saves us his grace is imputed to us, which is infinite. I know you would say that his life is a vicarious ordinance in our behalf is exactly that you have said it exactly to me. I would say that he paid the ultimate price for everything that could possibly ever be committed in every situation on every potential world for eternity and he is paid that price already and he's given us the grace of as a Latter Day Saints. I don't say that his life is given by he's lived my life for me but he's whatever I've done is wash clean to the blood of Christ. So for us. We still have to make our own covenants and promises with God. But we are washed through the grace of blood through his grace okay so let me talk to us about a couple of verses in the current time in as you like to but you are the summer I was expecting to go just kind of popped in my head right now.
Okay I really thought about this right now but in chapter 3 the baptism of Christ, a way to get baptized by John and in John protest right. You're the one who should be baptizing me right correct okay.
Go at it the way Jesus responds that this is Matthew three verse 15 and Jesus answering said to him, suffer it to be so now, for thus it become a thighs to fulfill all righteousness that he suffered. I believe that the LDS position is that he was baptized as sort of a model so that people would know the path that they should take the connection Scripture to that is at the end of second Nephi signifies extra great one.
31 is a fun one but were not given the 30s where is my letter say that word in it, but when I'm working cold is not allowed yeah it is pretty one-sided so just going along with that where Florida I would remember that bubble up up up profit which the Lord showed me the baptized Lamb of God, we should take away this is the world and now slim about you being holy which our interpretation is perfect should have need to be baptized by water to fulfill all righteousness old in how much more needs that we need to be back because the okay here it is now. I would ask you my blood brother, and wherein the Lamb of God to fulfill all righteousness by being baptized by water. So this is direct question to that Scripture which is interesting because it wasn't written yet, but word out of the fulfill all righteousness by being baptized under a not usefully notwithstanding being fully he's chosen to the children of men, according to the flesh, he humbles himself before the father and with the assistance of the father to be obedient and keeping his commandments. Wherefore, after he was baptized as part of the Holy Ghost is sort basically the LDS position as he did it to keep okay so just looking at this here and I'm just looking at the Bible, letting it speak for itself not putting the book of Mormon with it correctly think it's a stronger, and the Bible stronger on its own without the book of Mormon delicious me but he says suffered to be so now, for thus it become with us to fulfill all righteousness.
So obviously Christ was righteous he was. He was wholly right keeping the law, but I would say that this is a sign that he is doing this as something that is going to impute to ask later he's he's doing things so that he can fulfill all righteousness. Also, there can be a training that's going to take place on the cross he takes our standard we take his righteousness was actually, double imputation on the part of double imputation before your new favorite thing. Trust me because your fluorite yeah so we believe that there was a training there go even if you comment on that. Feel free is another verse I want to go to my gut find it real quick thought about that moment of the railroad. When you're at right now, so weight so your where your okay so he's in Matthew five here Jesus is talking about the law announced correct that line is ill. If you are a real brother without a cause shall be in danger of judgment. You know, if you look after a woman to lust after her, you committed adultery in your heart, all he sees these as it I seen you except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter the kingdom of heaven is a pre-big deal to them at all. Those guys aren't even that impressive right. But in the culture at the time. That's like saying hey Miss you're more righteous than the prophet and the apostles, you're not going to enter the kingdom of heaven is kind of a big deal K try to find this particular verse.
It's kind of leading me at the moment. Oh that's right.
So Jesus says not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets. I came not to destroy but to fulfill.
Basically, I've come to fulfill the law, you know like the problem.
The law is so strict that nobody can keep it, but he's there to fulfill the law so that they can be kept perfectly so that I can be transferred to us your Scriptures listed the entirety of the law where is Latter Day Saints take this as this is filling the law of Moses the law, sacrifice that after Christ is given his likeness, but there shall be no more sacrifice there is that difference between our ideology, but I can see where you're coming from what he says on what is he say exactly their own thing out that I am come to destroy the law but to fulfill his is a state till heaven and earth pass not one jot or to shall be done away until all is fulfill. Right now he puts it. Matthew five I think it's in there somewhere towards the end looking for the main Scripture for continued baptism for Latter Day Saints is the famous one. You all know it is John chapter 3 of his conversation with Nicodemus. I am familiar that evangelicals thoughts on this is that being born of the waters.
Your first person being born of the spirit is to come to Jesus moment, but Latter Day Saints view this as being baptized by water and being baptized by spirit so as does the first three pages · those that barely rarely essentially out except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God, Nicodemus said to him, how can a man be born when he is ultimately answered the second time into his mother's womb and be born, and Jesus answered barely rarely a sense of the except a man be born of water and of the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God. I just can't think that this is talking about entering into your mother's room are being born at all because why would he bring it up a second time as a condition except he be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
I know that's up for debate with this is one of the main biblical verses for us as hey this is a requirement. Want to see it and then with both of those born water in the spirit to actually enter the kingdom of God and that along with some of the other scriptures that are found in the book of Mormon. Specifically, second Nephi 31 really lead me to believe that this is the moment that his righteousness imputed to us.
Okay so first of all and never says like the word baptism in that passage it says by the water and of the spirit. And so I guess the layout explained that is, he would say it again as a condition because Nicodemus doesn't get it the first time, like he's completely going off in the Lala land right well I can't fit back in my mother's womb usually look, you don't get it any make it simple for you to be born of water so you get to be born, and of this spirit like there's 22 Berkshire so I think that's in Wyoming think it's really that far-fetched for him to explain it is not explaining it as a condition as is condition. A place to order the water.
The reason he's even mentioning it is differentiated from the bars of the spirit.
That's why I think that he staying up there okay I can respect your opinion on the disagree on that but I expect you to Matthew five here for this assignment were 17 I finally found it. I was having some trouble think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets. I am not come to destroy but to full bill for verily I say into you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be filled in verse 19 starts talking about whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, so use is talking about the commandments of God and that is what he is come to fulfill specifically so he is there to be obedient coming the Scripture say that he became sin knew no sin for us became sin so that we could become the righteousness of God. Just talking about trade really what I want to go is you probably know exactly where I want to go on their bundle on this is everything that he says over the next couple chapters to the sermon on the Mount is specifically referring to. They said of all… Commit adultery, saying the higher log I'm telling. I sent you shall not click bundle is less dapper and so when he's talking to me what he's talking about the least of these commandments. It is everything that he is referencing in the old law, the law Moses that this is not being fulfilled. So for me is still at the differentiation of of interpretation okay yeah so we definitely do see that very differently like I remember being LDS and thinking God sound updating the law of Moses here and I don't think he's updating it at all. I think he is showing them how strict that law already is like like we think that the law of Moses like this are the law of Moses okay but he's just showing them what would God's law is and what it is been all along like this is what God standard is and if you think that you are righteous because you're keeping the law of Moses like you don't really truly understand what God standard is like they've said before that you should commit adultery but I'm telling you this is what the standard is if you look at a woman to lust after committed adultery in your heart and basically just showing them what would God standard really is. And I think the best example of this is the rich young ruler going to Christ and saying what commandment shall I keep to have eternal life is a Jesus says no you know, here's what the commandment sorry so I've been doing this my whole life, you'll basically yeah keeping the commandments and Jesus says might go and sell all that you have and follow me, and you will have treasure in heaven and that immediately the young man's convicted, he walks away sorrowing and the way I see it as he couldn't of been keeping all the commandments is what's the first commandment. Yeah, and if he couldn't get rid of this treasure to follow Jesus. Did he really love God with all his heart, so it doesn't actually say whether he ended up doing it or not. He walked away sorrowful, but it was it was a challenge, you can keep every commandment without, as you say, without having love for God Will then immediately after that the apostle and he says it is easier for a caliphate to the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven is apostle nursing woman who can be saved and he says with a man with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible so again that imputed righteousness, you know you cannot get there without me you know you need God to get there but going under Truman's for a little bit here in verse three just what's is what's at the Scripture. Abraham believed God, and it was counted on to him for righteousness.
So it's over there when when Abraham believed God, counted his righteousness, but he asked this question and he's always he's talking to a different audience than today where they believe that circumcision was vital, but the question that he asked them is was he counted righteousness before he was circumcised or after he was circumcised in this case it was before.
Yeah. So it is it is before he is obedient to God tells him he's already righteous because he believed in a says he received the sign of circumcision is in verse 11, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised. So the circumcision was a seal of the righteousness that he already had. Basically was a witness to that that righteousness and I believe that baptism works exactly the same way as that so pretty pretty clear illustration. There really towards Leander's is verse 22. Therefore, it was imputed to him for righteousness to basically say you're not the promise of God through unbelief was strong in faith, giving glory to God and being fully persuaded what he promised he was able also to perform and therefore was imputed righteousness that was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him but for us also to whom it shall be imputed if we believe on him that raised Jesus our Lord from dad just right there it is, it is tied to believing in Christ. When that imputation occurs along with that mean this is one of those things were.
I know you like to tie this into baptism. I feel like the ideology that was going on is that they were trying to bring circumcision into Christianity. Again, this was the old Wallace continue doing this and they're trying to stop circumcision Romans as I understand use of these books were in epistle to the people of Thessalonians of the church in enrollment and it's all part of one epistle okay. As you say is different, go on to chapters more of the still talking about chapter 5 talking about being justified and cries out so chapter 6 does talk a lot about baptism and becoming a new creature in Christ.
So I do feel like even though circumcision is being next that there is talk of still following Christ through baptism, specifically verse four of Romans chapter 6, but we can move on. Yeah so I wasn't saying that were runtime are just trying to figure out how much time you have laughed this over there okay so last comment to make on this if you want to say one last thing, you can find.
I think yet. He seconded two different people in the different letters but the Gospels marketing change based on who is talking to his children be completely true and unity. Righteousness is only imputed to us one time and I think you would agree with that. I do agree with that in itself is happening in faith, but he says here in Romans chapter 4 than it cannot be at baptism. Also, I think for him to follow up with baptism later and talk about it, it's gotta be the signification process which occurs afterwards. This is one of those points where we disagree. I read this real quick and then that will provide much demanding.
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into bed that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the father. Even so, we should walk in newness of life. As I think just talking about walking in the newness of life is we are 100% clean. At that point that's just my my belief that fits in with LBS theology. If I 100% agree with you, I'd be Protestant, so we can disagree. Ultimately, I think any dinner with us listening. It you know I think we both made our points, but it's us between them and God said whatever they decide, okay, sounds good to our final topic here and this is finally a topic that we haven't rehashed a million times and we started talking about one sentence of that statement for the embedded being heirs of God, so I read the passage here in Romans chapter 8 verses 16 and 17.
The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God, and if children than heirs. Heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.unless a whole lot, but it kinda caught my eye the other day I was reading this and Isaac Wilde says that if the children were heirs and the first got the jump in my head is smartly all children of God in LDS theology and verse 15 it talks about the spirit of adoption. So for me that's talking about. Why don't you go with me.
That's exactly what I was going to go to because I know that Messiah in science is that Christ spiritually begets us when we will come to so like we become children of Christ, and I'm pretty sure that any letter the same as believe that is the point where we become children of God like talking about that and argue that point because I sort of believe similarly similarly I don't believe like that.
Christ himself adopts me just say God adopts me to be assignment so yeah I am okay with that. To that point. So I guess your you mentioned earlier that we become children of Christ when we are baptized.
My position is that we are children of God. When we believe in him and so I guess it just kind along with the same really follows imputation really closely because if were heirs of God again doing temple ordinances. So here's my thought. I so Christ and the church are often considered as the bridegroom and the church is the bride I know to marry the trickster to staying inside. I really like the marriage analogy for me faith is our relationship like me and my wife.
We had a relationship. We love each other before we got married. Otherwise, why are we getting married, no, but we are not legally married and she does not take my name until we actually are married. So for me, having faith in Christ. It is the most important thing, but we have it been married to him yet and so were baptized, and I feel like that's probably the best analogy to describe imputation and adoption all all the fun stuff is just yes there is a relationship that relationship is the most important thing.
But you have to be married otherwise are living in sin, and so for my point of view is yes, we have a wonderful relationship with Christ that leads us to seal the deal. Through baptism, that's our ordinance okay but what the analogy that the Scripture uses here is adoption.
That's what it's talking about and in Romans eight right is the adoption of signs whereby we cry, father is I want to keep it to the adoption because I believe that God adopts last is not as adopting God, but John chapter 1 here. I do believe that and believe that we are children of God is right here but as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man but God's. It's God's will that is causing us to be born again to receive that adoption of sons and it occurs at Applebee's and I think that if it happens it baptism you make the choice to be baptized at something that you are doing to make that adoption happen and I think that becomes the will of man.
At that point so along the lines like I don't think I know anybody I'm sure there are experiences calls probably the perfect example of pretty much being pulled in six Christianity but for the most part I feel like we are seeking a relationship with God. We feel like there's something missing from our lives and we start trying to start the prayer we start trying to pastors and missionaries and so there. Whether it's baptism or its searching and seeking.
I feel like there is something that leads to believe you don't just suddenly one day believe for 98% of the population that I feel like there is a study there is questions there is prayer side. I don't I have a hard time feeling like yes it is God that that that brings you to it.
But I feel it.
That's more of him answering your your prayers. Otherwise, it's it goes to the hundred 44,000 from other faiths are not. I guess Artie anyways where these are the (are going to be saved but everyone else you'll you'll probably still be happy if you believe that site God dictating to save what are your thoughts on the supplicant. Romans eight likes verse 718. Back at their because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be so that a day there in the flesh cannot please God. Jesus also says elsewhere in Scripture. No man can come under me, except the Father draws him so I don't think that we are capable of choosing Christ without God making the first since the first move you it's not willing ourselves to to have that faith, I think that he is the one that cortex in a way but yes it goes here to. It basically says verse 14 for as many as are led by the spirit of God. They are the sons of God, and I think even Latter Day Saints have to agree that nobody gets baptized except the spirit is leading them right. I do agree with the heads of their being led by the spirit of God according to Romans 814, they must be sons of God and according to verse 17, if your children, then heirs, and so they must be heirs of God before they go into the waters of baptism is rereading it is okay. Take your time.
It's interesting they talked about the love the flashing enmity. That's also there is a scripture in the book of Mormon the premises the exact same thing. The natural man is an enemy of God and always will be until they become a saint through the atonement of Christ were to think of going really really similar doctrines in the Bible.
Here in the book of Mormon. I really thought much about children of God coming throughout my mission and stuff like that and always thought of this Scripture as that is a very interesting Scripture to say hey we are children of God and what if you're a puppy and you have a dog and Doc is up to puppies can grow up to be like that dog and so I thought this was an interesting way to say hey we will be able to inherit the celestial kingdom will be like our heavenly father being children of God. There is one script verse in the Scripture that does good. It it changes it a little bit a kid it does give the LBS and how it it just says, if so be that we suffer with them and I feel like we can tie that Scripture to Matthew chapter 3 where he says, suffer to be so now for this to become of us thought righteousness.
What is it mean to suffer with them. I mean obviously we are not going to get up on the cross. We are not asked to be with you were told, and I believe it's Isaiah with his stripes we are healed. I summing all a lot of these things were not supposed to do with him, but it does state that we suffer with him in I don't know what that means. I mean I know there's one time when I was on my mission and I was on my bike. Gail was right behind me. It's pouring down rain. The streets in Fresno did not have great drainage so as the cars drove by, were given tidal waves of nasty dirty water and there is a guy the street that this article yes yelling at me through it. Dr Pepper can have me and my first thought was mad I was in a misdirected drink that I second thought was Jesus has suffered worse and I had that feeling that I was suffering with him I was suffering for his name on try to mimic what you actually really glad that you mention the second part of that verse.
I do have some thoughts on that to so there's basically two statements that are made when I said this to you but I will go a little further on. He says if her children were heirs of that statement. One. Statement two.
If so be that we suffer with him, and I think that suffering is a natural result of being a child of God.
Because if it is if it is not.
If both statements are not always simultaneously true than one of them is a lie unless we both have to be true by default and what's interesting is the next verse, verse 18. He says for I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed. And honestly he's writing Romans to the believers in here in verse 18 he is assuming that they are suffering because they are believers, and especially at this time Royce you know the Romans are hunting down Christians and they are killing them for no other reason except that they are Christian right, and Jesus tells his disciples, if you were of the world, the world would love you as its own, but because I am actually gospel yet because I've chosen you out of the world. The world hates you. But yet we totally agree that the prosperity gospel is that so that's at least but yeah I do think that it is a total natural part of being a child of God means that there will be suffering that is going to come from fat. I think the statement here seems to stand by itself. If we are children of God than we are heirs and all those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God and so just save my concluding statement the last word on this is that the spirit of God is leading me. I believe in Christ. The Scripture say that no one can call Jesus the Christ by the Holy Ghost, and so by the Bible itself. I am left to believe that I am in error of God and because of that I I feel no need to return back to the LDS church for our look at it you know too seriously because it it says here that the spirit is all I need. I love my Savior as well. I don't know where I'd be without the confidence that he's got my back my front and everything. I am grateful to hear your testimony and your faith in me that it does me good. I think after hearing that you leave the church I was worried that like so many others that you were going to be just away from God. In general, so the fact that you are with God makes me happy for my latter-day's St. perspective. Whether you are a member of the church or not.
If you are a believer in Christ you will be around during the thousand year millennium of Christ. If I'm right, I have no reason to worry about you or YOU will be there and even if you're not alive during the millennium and you die and your spirit prison and also into missionaries, start preaching the plan of salvation.
I mean, then I mean I don't have any doubt in my mind that it is that I write that you will be saved. I don't think there's any issue with me saying that yes, my brothers kingdom positivity and celestial kingdom. I don't worry about you guys at all and I don't really worry about you either. But it's for different reasons. I did worry about everybody in the family a lot just to be honest I do believe that Latter Day Saints can be Christian, but they can be heirs of God and they can be born again and all of that, but I do believe that it's a false gospel and I don't believe that a false gospel can say and so the reason I don't worry is because I've just kind of come to replace one Mike, I trust God to you to work everything out, but you know I do. I do hope for people in the family world. I hope hope just Laura in the family to have a complete and utter trust in Christ not to have any distractions you know to to believe fully and to believe in the gospel and police again. I have disagreements on that but I do. I do hope for things in the future, not just me being honest is not me trying to be mean or anything like that. Very similar thing.
We trust that God to take care yet will grow. Thank you so much for coming on the podcasting and talking to me. If nothing else, I just hope that this is a blessing because I know that so many people leave the LDS church and then they have no relationship with her family. Afterwards, I hope that this is just something that shows people one that it's possible and maybe how you can talk to her family members where you don't have to ruin it. You know, I think there's definitely a place to mimic nobody in the family has disowned me. You know I saw is just as good a relationship with everybody. As I did before and is not because I'm like pretending that I don't have believe Fleming I think everybody in the family knows what I believe because a certain somebody in our family shares on my post of the wall you have any any closing thoughts on. I guess that kind of thing like if somebody leaves the church like maybe another Latter Day Saints like how to respond to that. You know leave for number of reasons.
I would say that my first thing is just not to assume anything. I mean, I don't know how many times I've I talked to somebody or heard from members that have left the church in different forms that people assume that they just wanted to send her that it was easier to be outside of the church. I mean you you don't know why somebody's lap and I think the best thing that that you can do is member of the church is just talk with them say, like what what was it that okay I feel like having it on his conversation where she can understand where you're coming from, without necessarily 10 bring back and mean. I would love it if Michael came back but I am back in the try to force him and I'm sure he's back me to several quarters today that he wanted to because dug down deep but I think just don't assume anything into this of the outer podcast we love to hear from. Please visit the out of right and feel free to send us a message than with comments or send a message at time the pain appreciated the page life. We also have an out of right and others can also send this is right to the other brightness podcast on Cass cashbox cast the modify institution. Also you can check on channel if you like it shortly right great also connect with Michael just one lungs and sometimes Poland will music for the other brightness podcast is graciously provided by the talented Breanna Flournoy and by Adams Road. Learn more about Adams Road.
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