Bye Flournicia

You're entering Outer Brightness. All right, good. So that brings us to the end of the portion of the episode where we're talking about Michael's article. And now Michael and Brianna are going to share something with us as well.

Yes. So Brianna and I are going to be leaving the Outer Brightness Podcast. And I say that with a really heavy heart, nothing against Paul and Matthew in case anyone has that concern on their mind. It's kind of funny because when I first came out of the LDS church, I were telling a group of missionaries online that witnessed to Mormons that I didn't have anything to add to the work that they were already doing because I was coming in too late to the game and I had nothing to offer after all the work that had already been done in this field. And then I started writing some articles and I just thought I had no material. I'm like, this is going to last me exactly three weeks and I'm going to run out of things to write.

And miraculously, every month, the Lord just puts a topic on my heart and I've been able to write it. And then Paul approached me with this podcast and the first thought in my head was, I can't do this. I'm no podcaster. I'm too short-winded. I can't think of things to say. I think I sound stupid every time I say something. It's just not for me.

And I just went ahead and tried it out. And it's been an amazing two years with these guys. But unfortunately life has just at this point taken me away from being able to do this with work, just taking a new job. And it's our busy season. We have a lot planned coming up that's just not allowing me the time to continue to do the podcast. I'm really grateful to everybody who's listened in and supported us. You guys are amazing and seeing your comments has strengthened me and kind of kept me from feeling like I'm wasting my time because the LDS apologists that I talk to are very eager to make me feel like I'm wasting my time a lot. So I'm amazed by all of you and you do strengthen me. I just want anybody who's listening to know that. So thank you so much for your support. I'm not as eloquent as my husband when it comes to these things, but I know I haven't been here for a very long while and I'm grateful to have been a part of it for at least a little while and been following and listening to this podcast for a while and so grateful. I know I speak for our listeners when I say that we will miss you both. Your voices, I think, are powerful and important in the work that we're doing and I've been blessed to have you, Michael, by my side in this kind of from day one as we started planning for it and discussing what it might look like. Early on, you and Brianna were very newly married and you expressed concern that you needed to hold off for a bit.

I wanted to jump right in and go 100 miles an hour. And you expressed the need to wait for six months to a year to kind of get settled in your marriage. And I respect you for that. And also where you are now, where you need to take some time and step back within any kind of ministry.

It's important to recognize when you might be trying to run too fast and when you have to take a step back. And there are important things that call for our time and family and marriage and career are some of those things. Not all of us have been called by God to be full time vocational ministers of the gospel. I very much respect those who are, but the three of us are not.

And so we do this, you know, in our spare time, which isn't very much. And so, Michael, just commend you for recognizing when it's time to take a step back. You know, the apostle Paul was a tent maker and supported himself that way. So there's a precedent for us bivocational ministers of the gospel. And just really appreciate both of you and your voices.

And of course, as we've discussed, you're always welcome to come back and pop in for an episode here and there. Can I ask you a question, Paul? Because I'm looking at your shirt and I'm like, is this a subliminal message?

No, I didn't even think about that. It says, stay golden. And it's the golden girls. I just see a big stack. That's awesome.

I'm glad I wore this shirt today. I was going to say there could be another subliminal message, like, you know, maybe Michael's on death's door. And so he's trying to keep them from, you know, passing on to the next life.

You know, he wants you to be the Betty white, not the other three. Oh, that's hilarious. How great would that be? Oh, wait, I shouldn't say that. If Michael keeled over before me, after all his jokes about me being old, that would be great. It would be ironic.

You know, I would give you guys permission to laugh. Yeah. Yeah. Ironic. That's the right word. Not great. Ironic is the right word.

Yes. And great. Greatly ironic. Paul would be giving a eulogy at his funeral. And he just turns around and looks at Michael in the coffin. He's like, I told you I'd outlive you.

I win, sucker. Yeah. And then I'd sit up and be like, it's your fault I died. My fault?

How would it be my fault? Yeah. I agree with Paul.

You know, everything you said. You guys have been very, it's been great doing episodes with you. And I really, I really enjoyed the interview that I did. She's, she stepped up to the plate to ask all those questions and kind of, kind of lead a lot of that discussion when I was really impressed by her and Michael, you've all, you've always given a similarly really great comments. And it's, it's kind of interesting that when you said that you, you felt like you couldn't speak or didn't feel like you'd have anything to say, because you've both been giving great insights and I love, I love the wittiness too, of your articles, you know, like Holy ghosted and all that. That's great. You know, you've always got these witty ideas and the kind of like a talent for, for writing and penmanship. But yeah, no, thank you both for, for joining us.

Yeah, for sure. Thank you guys too. I guess just to throw it in there, what I really appreciate about you guys, like what I've learned from working with both of you is like Paul's leadership is something that I really admire and you know, try to strive for myself and and Matthew, you you anchor me down sometimes in a good way because I tend to be really creative, but that's not always the best thing when it comes to the gospel. And I have to remember like, Hey, the scripture, you know, is there to like, to tie us down doctrinally. And I think you've been a good influence on me there to not let you know, because especially being ex Mormon, right? Like, it's really easy to just be like, oh, I'm gonna, you know, whoever makes the most eloquent statement wins.

And it's like, no, that's not the case. It has to be a hundred percent in line with scripture. And so I've definitely learned a lot talking with you and seeing things that I wouldn't have seen before, like covenant theology and Calvinism, you know, definitely seen a different view of things in a positive way. So yeah, definitely enjoyed working with with both of you.

I say working like it's like we make money as if I just really enjoyed the fellowship to it's been great. I just want you guys to know you ever feel the need to do a random phone call during any of these recordings. Feel free to bother me with any questions or anything that you want to put me on the spot for. I might, I might, but I will probably give you a quick heads up by text first so that Brianna could set up your microphone. Yeah, yeah, that's fine.

Or you can call me and put me on speaker to give my number. Now we're definitely definitely gonna miss you. We'll definitely stay in touch.

And fireflies. If you'll be praying for Michael, he has some decisions coming up with regards to career, things that are very exciting that I hope will be very good for him. And he has some just some some tough decisions to make on which direction he wants to go with his career and so be praying for him and for Brianna. They've got challenges that they face as a young couple and dealing with step parents and other parent situations aren't always easy. But we really appreciate them.

Love what they're doing with their with their marriage and their faith and just pray God's richest blessings on you both. I did want to bring up something though. In the section, the very last section, we started when Paul started reading, I'm going to quote it. I'm not going to let you go on this Michael. Let's see, is this the keeping him grounded part? Yep. Mm hmm. Let's see. It says, Okay, so the line where it says disobedience doesn't undo the covenant relationship.

Can you imagine kicking your kid out of the house because he didn't clean his room or disowning him because he told a lie? I saw you had a little smirk on your face, Michael. I don't know what you're talking about.

When Paul is reading. You smirked and you looked at Brianna and you're like, you know what, that sounds like a good idea. I think I'm going to call Child Protective Services to save Nathan from this abusive. Well, you're breaking up.

I can't hear you. I saw that and I was like, I'm not going to go. Yeah, sometimes bad thoughts come into my head.

I'm not gonna lie. The thought didn't come to my mind. Like, I actually can't imagine doing that. I wouldn't, in case anyone's wondering, I would not do such a thing. Wait, who wouldn't you kick out of the house? My kid. Okay, but the cats, the cats are not my children. They're mine. They're my children. So he can't kick them out.

We'll see. If you kick those cats out, Brianna goes with them, right? It's like a package deal. I kick him out. You would kick the cats over me.

That's okay. I would pick cake over you. He loves his sweets. He has a sweet tooth. I'd take ice cream over cake. Cake doesn't seem like something I'd throw my wife out for. You're right.

You're right. I would pick Slurpee. You're like looking here at the 7-Eleven.

You're like looking at Brianna. Like there's only room in this car for one of you. Like, I could literally hold the Slurpee for you. Nope. You got to get out of the car. You strap in the Slurpee into the seatbelt. The ultimate question for the editor is where does this episode end?

Oh, it's still going. It doesn't. So one place where I have gotten some LDS kickback is where I said that according to the iron rod vision, that God does not love those who have not made it to the tree. Then they say that I'm misrepresenting LDS doctrine. And I know that I kind of am because I know that it's their doctrine that God loves everybody. But I don't think any of us here can deny that if you look at this vision logically, if that tree represents the love of God, which the Book of Mormon says it does, and the iron rod is leading to it and the iron rod represents prophets and obedience to them, then you have to make your way to the love of God and you have to earn that love. So I'm just showing them the way that it looks logically. I mean, do you guys agree with that? Did I go off the deep end there?

No, I think I agree. There's a member of the Quorum of the Twelve that gave a famous talk in General Conference that kind of became a lightning rod where they talked about that God's love is not unconditional. Was it Richard G. Scott or was it Oakes that gave that talk? I thought it was Packer, but maybe I'm wrong. For some reason, I'm remembering Oakes.

Can we get the Jeopardy music going again? I found an article where they quoted Nelson from 2003 where he said, while divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional. Okay. Yeah. So was Nelson. Then he quoted some other talks too, like Elder Christofferson and Elder Wren said similar things, I think.

So Nelson originally said it? Yeah, I think so. Okay. Yeah. So Michael, I think you're right. At least under the current president and prophet, going back to whenever he originally gave that talk, I remember, did you say 2002?

That seems about the right timeframe that I remember it kind of being a lightning rod conference talk. Yeah. So God's love is not unconditional. Thoughts on that? Yeah. It seemed like as an LDS, I would have believed that there's two types of love that God loves us conditionally and unconditionally because he loves us unconditionally as his children, but then he only blesses those who make covenants, keep their covenants all well. So I don't know. I kind of saw it as like a dual, dual administration. If you want to say that of love, I guess. I don't know.

Yeah. I mean, it seems kind of weird though, to, to say God loves everybody, but he's sending some of the people that he loves to the terrestrial kingdom. And I didn't even have LDS people argue that God loves Satan and the demons because God loves all his children. Those are his children, according to LDS theology, which at that point, I'm just like, okay, this is kind of ridiculous.

So God loves them, but he sent them to outer darkness for eternity where there's weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth. Like if that's love, then count me out. I don't want that love.

He's only giving them what they wanted, Michael. Yeah. Okay. So in the book of Mormon, you want to put your head back on? Cause I'm ready to go. It's that time of night. Dr. Pibb is coming out. Mr. Pibb is coming out. Oh, you made the Dr. Pibb, Mr. Pibb mistake that I made before.

You're getting old like me, Buster. Oh, Oh, Oh, okay. What does the book of Mormon say will happen to liars, Paul?

Uh, they go to hell. No, no, no. What does it actually say? What does it actually say?

Yeah. Oh, what's the direct quote? Woe unto the liar.

It's not coming by osmosis. Um, You actually found an appropriate use for the book of Mormon. I'm proud of you.

Um, I just never knew that there was something that it could be used for until now. I don't know. What does the book of Mormon say about liars, Michael? It says blow unto the liar for he shall be thrust into hell. I was right.

I was right. You said he would go to hell, but I'm emphasizing the thrust. So if that's where he wants to go, why is he being thrust there?

If that's where he's most comfortable and that's where he wants to be, why is he being thrusted? Got it. I got it.

Okay. Have you ever been on a been with your child to a park and put them on a swing? You thrust to them and they go really high on the swing because they, and they love it.

That's, that's all God is doing. He's thrusting them where they want to go. Pushing them on a metaphorical swing. So why is there weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth if that's where they're the most comfortable? Have you ever pushed your kid on a swing and they decide they're going to jump off and they twist their ankle? Because they wanted to twist their ankle.

Yeah. Hey, you can't deny doctrine and covenants, right? They, they can't bear a celestial body. They can't bear a terrestrial body.

They can't bear a terrestrial body. So they're getting what they want. God's not, God's never going to give you anything you don't want. Yeah. So last question, if I'm an apostate and he's going to outer darkness, then, and so is my wife.

How does, how does she have a celestial body? That's not in here. On that note, Mr. Pibb is definitely out on that note. I think the episode's over. It's been great guys. Yeah. We're going to miss you. All right. Thanks guys. Thanks Brianna. Have a good one. Bye.