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Reformed COVENANT Theology

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The Truth Network Radio
April 30, 2021 1:42 pm

Reformed COVENANT Theology

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April 30, 2021 1:42 pm

From Mormon to Jesus!  Real, authentic conversations among former members of the Church Of Latter-Day Saints

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Your right and welcome fireflies to this episode of the brightness podcast and as though we have two very special guest with us this week we have been hiding and Darren Colwell as a person is the correct this awesome all right now that all that English and Greek study recently as a Melvin L RA so you would like to thank you guys for coming out to the podcast is a brief introduction to them there.

Both pastors were serving at covenant Grace Church and Syracuse, Utah will give more information in the details when we publish a podcast and also at the end of they'll talk more about their ministry. So it's a church that I was able to visit why visit family over the holidays. We are church here in the Albany New York actually have been praying for their church for months now we we heard updates through emails so every week in our prayer meetings. He been praying for them that that the work would go forward and that the Lord will bless their their ministry and so is really great to be able to go out to visit and to see them preach and to fellowship with them. So thank you Ben and Dan for going on the shelf.

Thanks for having and just to give a little bit more back onto I when I attended a church the first Sunday that I tended I believe is Darren you gave the sermon, and you had sprinkled in.

I really love the service because they are pastors of a confessional church and so as part of their service. They would also quote from the 1689 London Baptist confession, which is a confession that they hold to over if I understand correctly, you don't require all of your members to hold every point of that confession is a correct correct okay but but in a sense, it's it's kind of a confession as to what you will teach the membership every week and so it's off to get the hold.

Every single piece of Dr. but that's what you'll be teaching is kind yeah exactly we want people to know what they were here any given Sunday.

You will reap where we stand on the 32 chapters 32 different boards of vendor specs all right out there for anybody to see it's it's a confession that we grow into something that we all have to understand it or we would want the child knows the gospel and is saved to be just as welcome know through your old enough to be a member without having to understand you know all the parents of Dr. but you give them something that they can grow into them and learn as were all learning together so we wanted to be a really robust regression. That's one of the reasons why that's great.

And I think it's important to have a confession or your church. In that same sense. I know that the John MacArthur he's to be technically doesn't he doesn't hold a 1689 London Baptist confession, but they do have a confession for their church and it's very similar in the sense that he says this is what we teach our church after agree with every single appointment, but this is what will be teaching and so I Ira I really like that because I can now okay when you're looking for church know exactly what the be teaching every Sunday.

I think that's really great secret music keeps is consistent with historical form theology is not something that Darren and I sat down and said hey let's come up with this brand-new document. It was something we said okay let's agree with what you know reformed Baptist churches have confessed for centuries and let's agree with that. And so it's not only gives new members order visitors an understanding of what we believe. Right from the outset that were not hiding anything. This is what we believe it's something that also we can say this is something that reformed Baptist is believed for centuries exactly that's when we look at the reformers they were.

They were not trying to do something brand-new like he said they were trying to show they would know Calvin would even look back to the church fathers and compare what church follows a set over the centuries so that he would make sure my coming was nothing brand-new, or is this something we can look down through the ages and see what the Christian church so yeah that's that's great that's that's we can do a whole other episode on confessional is and why that's important and I love I love professionalism.

Yeah, that's but I bring it up because I really enjoy the fact that you incorporated into the preaching into the worship service that you know it's not just this dry document that we read to the side and the optic facet and then move on.

It's something that's part of the church as part as part of the worship and not something also really enjoyed was during during Darren sermon. He didn't make the sermon about covenant theology, but he incorporated concepts and beliefs about know from within. Covenant theology into the sermon and I found incredibly edifying venue to the same week.

We just talked about priesthood and in in our previous episode, we were just wrapping up and you had talked about how God wanting to make it a dwelling place among his people. And I really love that sermon. I just and I found that currently edifying as well. So just seeing how God is working amongst his people and so that's how I was interested to two years on the show and ask for us to talk about covenants because when missionaries are teaching when LDS missionaries are teaching one of things that they bring up covenants God makes covenants we make of this, God is so a lot of Latter Day Saints are confused about what Christians believe about covenants and so we really wanted to talk about how do we understand covenants as Latter Day Saints. And for those who are coming out of the Latter Day Saints church and Christianity. What are they wouldn't expect what you Christians believe that covenants and so that's kind of high-level what we wanted to discuss today for a topic so they can start the discussion off my wanted to pose a question specifically between me Mike on pulses where both were all or Latter Day Saints. So I called Paul what were you taught know what consistent what consisted in a covenant and LDS church. What do they require. So I'll start you. Michael so close on Mormon covenants. It would be to a promise between us and God and these were always initiated by priesthood leaders at the time of a priesthood ordinance. So for example when we were baptized we are making a covenant to God. Among other things, we would keep his commandments, and in return he would grant us eternal life, so the pressure was on us because of these covenants to be perfectly obedient and by being obedient to our and of the covenant.

We would find God, so to speak, and forced him to give us eternal life. Another are some a lot of Latter Day Saints these days who will say that you do not have to be obedient for the covenant to stay in force, but you do still have to receive the LES ordinances to get into those covenants and if you were to leave the LDS church still would still be broken thank you you I wanted to point out one of the books of Scripture that the Latter Day Saints altar is called the doctor and covenants, and in that book, chapter 130. I think this is the section.

This is what Michael is referring to. It says there is a lot you revocably to Crete in heaven before the foundations of this world upon which all blessings are predicated and we have when we obtain any blessing from God. It is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated versus 20, 21, I think that's that's what you were alluding to Michael right when you said that when we obey God, and we make these covenants that God is kind of forced to bless us. If we obey, we must let verse and I don't remember where it is now worse is I the Lord and bound when you do what I say but we do not what I say you have no promise was another one in our mission in the mission field and a member we we had this whole campaign was a Gorgon. We really don't really obedient this week and working on finding God in and forced him to help us find people you baptize and back and that now I'm just like, how can I been so arrogant to think that I could bind God, my actions, but that is what I believe is a lot of exciting now it's interesting to think back on a reasonably writer versus voltage anything that enough. Not much messy.

My job covering letter simply covenants. The only thing I would add is mentioned that you know now it is some Latter Day Saints will say that you don't have to be obedient for the covenant to apply and I would just say that you know I applaud a latter-day St. of their moving in that direction because they seem to be moving in the direction of their thinking towards grace, but it does not align with with Latter Day Saints Scriptures says Matthew pointed out, so D&C 8210 by more bound me to understand and D&C 130 so it takes away that to a promise concept of the Latter Day Saints have about covenants.

If you try to save you don't have to be a PDF report known or that if you're disobedient. The covenants not going be null and void at great thank you both all right there in band so first of all I want to say again thank you for coming on as nice to finally have some more reform guys on my side of the reform are now outnumbering the non-reformed so that means you know like we can get stuff to the house and I can pass the bills now get stuff done here is that what's happening here yeah is a hostile takeover me and Paul together count as like a reformed person or at least have one gathering there because I reform like we have lots of discussions and you know Michael listen to volleyball come sermon the other day and he really love that is like you know what this whole reform thing sounded really good right now and I'm just like you got five total points is the thinking is for coming on again so related to the first question how they describe how Latter Day Saints he covenants how would you respond from a biblical perspective where there parts of that that would be the would be in line with the Bible or how would you how would you explain what the covenant is what requires the Bible. Yeah, that's a great question. Hearing what you said I never heard like the D&C definitions and aspects of that. But when I heard about what I'd say is that is absolutely biblical in relation to the law in relation to to the law of merit or what we recall will get into the terminology publishing a little bit but the covenant of works that if you obey God is obligated to give Boston were up all top talks about this in Romans four that to the one who works pediatricians do you earn wages. The problem with it is that it doesn't recognize our standing before God. Since the fall so to back up a little bit.

We should note when we hear the word covenant. Covenants not a word that we use often in our language. I think we are changing we really hear the word covenant brought up a message like in the name of the doctrine and covenants or something like that, you might hear it on the marriage ceremony may be some legal jargon but even then probably not a public talking contracts and a contractor coming or similar covenant.

One guy done an old Palmer Robertson's name finds it is an oath bound promise, which is a good way to find it because there's a lot of different types, covenants that exist in the Bible and in humanity in the world. Some are talking about. What is accounting and biblically speaking, usually were looking at an oath bound covenant. The bound prompts between God and man at some level enters different types of oath bound promises say there's the brand promise where God says your likely Israelites on Mount Sinai. If you obey, you will receive these blessings. Your younger children won't die, you're on your have lost a chance you will have your animals die to be plentiful. Blessing will shower down upon the promise that in your get to stay here forever, but if you disobey if you break my coming then I will break my coming theater since I will fulfill the curse of the covenant toward you and you will receive my wrath on them to kick you out of the land and there's a big fan. Members can be trial version before and Kings coming against you from subject but required obedience in order to be fulfilled.

And so in that sense, the obvious definition or understanding, or covenant is correct, there is merit.if you were to obey the commands of the covenant perfectly. You will obtain God would because God is in himself, honest, truthful that he will not lie or renege on good terms the covenant that she created every covenant that that's in Scripture comes from God to man as condescension garden have to make any promises to you chose to fulfill perfectly, then we've earned what worked out with that covenant promises.

The problem is we always would tend to diminish the terms of the covenant. It's no longer have to obey perfectly. It's I have to obey from the decent heritage or most of the time or do enough good things outweighs the bad things and that will give me my covenant faithfulness and so will come up with all these other rules and regulations rather troubled Pharisees that it's it's what know the D&C is all about rated good treats all these additional rules and regulations to help you keep the rules of the covenant. Regular church attendance Tyvek logic and certain drinks are doing certain things doing other thing will help you balance the scales even what Michael said earlier, God views not in not in an timeline like we do. God just sees everything all at once. So when Michael said you know this week really can obey the things that were supposed to do work to keep our side of the covenant God is already seen the week before that we've broken the covenant and as I heard Michael talk.

I guess it really conjures up a great deal of empathy for our friends here right because when we look at the Bible it all and refers to God as a covenant keeping God with his people. If you look in the Bible. It never refers to the people as covenant keeping people because from the fall. We are not we are covenant breaking people you look at Abraham and this is one of my favorite explicit covenants that that it talks about because it is God showing that I will keep my covenant in and it's actually ship shown the cutting of the covenant retakes these animals and he puts to have Sunnyside. He walks in between symbolizing this same thing should happen to me. God if I don't keep my side of the covenant. We don't see that people making those types of covenants with God. What we see is God making covenants with man because he's the only one who can keep the covenant.

I can't think of a time where a human being in the Bible initiates a covenant with God. God is always the initiator of a relationship or a covenant with his people and so even in that yes are are there always going to be similarities in how the LDS referred to covenants in air or anything in the Bible. Yes, there will be, but it always like Darren said it it it's going to fall short because they neglect to remember life host rebellion in the Garden of Eden. Yeah, I'm really glad glad you brought up that the covenant God made with Abraham, I don't really understand the implications of that until I started listening to the linear series by RC Sproul and he talked about that and I think he even anecdote about how you know like a lot of times people go up to them and to RC Sproul or Tyler people conferences and say you know like right. Could you write me the most important passage of the Bible to you and he wrote that passage you know know it was a single verse within a passage and you just reading it would make any sense wise at some point, you know people be so puzzled by it buys us most of our passage and I thought it would be John 316 or these wonders are like that. He chose this and and he went in to explain exactly what you said that whatever God promised he will fulfill you will not go back on that and I think that's I think and I and and just to sum up, what we've been talking about working to get more into how we receive salvation from the from the LDS standpoint, I would just add that. Like you said we may covenants with God and we are asked to keep them and by our obedience, we receive the blessings of salvation when we look at the Bible. It's God makes the covenants God keeps them and he brings people into unity with Christ into the new covenant so it's is looking at come from complete different perspective and so I think will will get more in depth on that. I think as we get as we go along in the discussions of thank you so much of her for what you contribute itself. I really appreciate this conversation and so what we talked about what makes a covenant so Paul and Michael, let's talk about what covenants that Latter Day Saints actually make as members what what comest do they make and how do they make us Apollo start off at the yes so the LDS church would define covenants as being related to the ordinances so all of all of the LDS priesthood ordinances it says entail a covenant so those ordinances would be. Baptism is the sacrament of our Lord's supper the endowment ceremony in the temple while washing's anointing is in the temple endowment ceremony in the temple marriage in ceiling in the temple, and I suppose also be seconds anointing in the temple yet to go there, Paul. I'm sure there's gonna be some entities and others can get triggered Michael to have anything to add to, you know, we made so many covenants in the LDS church that I don't even remember all of the covenants that I made specifically, you know, like, what covenants I made when I got sealed in the temple. For example, I don't even really remember that while but just to go over some of them just in different ordinances, but we may covenants to mourn with those that mourn to stand as witnesses of God at all times and all places. We made a covenant to be chased to the word of wisdom you to take care of our bodies and then we in the temple made the covenant to defend the LDS church, even by sacrificing our own lives, if necessary, and I believe we made a covenant to keep the law of consecration is that correct is is remember when you how is in a document covenants where consecration was like physical property would consecrated to the church and that if they would redistribute it. But in the yard and the temples are minor is kind of a modified law consecration very willing to give your time, talents and everything to the church is Christ Latter Day Saints right that's that's right now yes a loser along the covenants of the made for males as though the covenant of the priest and that we talked about in our persistent episodes so right in and that basically involves when you receive the priesthood and in when you honor and magnify that priesthood you receive receive eternal life. Essentially, so that basically the entire planet in the entire way that a sense believe that the return to live in the presence of God is by making these covenants and keeping these covenants and that's why it's so it's on the forefront of every Latter Day Saints mind when they're thinking about religion when they're talking about Christians about Cummins as I think that's why this could be a really fruitful discussion both for Latter Day Saints who may know who are not interested in leaving the church or 30 states were questioning our Christians are talking to the Latter Day Saints friends because as therein as you said earlier, you know missions are not constantly thinking about how can I make covenant with God to be saved and on. I mean it's it's it's it's kind like a language barrier runoff is not really thinking the same is not the same mindset. So when were trying to talk to them when there is theirs is barrier that were not getting through. You know they see covenants is essential. We have to make covenants and keep them in and obey as much as we can so it's just it's it's just a weird if the translation gloss plus in translation so we can so understanding covenants better from the LDS perspective in the Christian perspective maybe can help us to witness to them better. So when I read the next question or the discussion. It sounds like you both kind of already answered it already. The question would being Christians make covenants and does differ between Christian traditions of their new kind of Artie answered that we don't really make covenants we talk about the marriage covenant right but you had anything else to that.

Yeah there are covenants that we make some churches.

For instance, particularly the entire church denomination side Presbyterians.

Some Baptists they might have a church covenant where the members of the church covenant together, but that's covenants not that we make like a marriage covenant or between one human being another work collective body.

We don't make covenants between us and God. Because we are not in a position where we can make a covenant between a subgraph, God himself is is high and exalted, and far above us in and we we can't hold God to anything we can make God obey, a promise or fulfill something no wonder the ways that I think you hear the would be like your foxhole type prayers.if you get me out of the severity church home that would be the kind of covenant that we would make God and we know on the face of it is under actually no obligation that home and so any covenant to make a covenant with God is to reverse the order of who God is and who we are because every covenant that God makes a man a guy you mentioned earlier is an act of condescension toward God and stepping down to our level.

It's not every covenant is there a covenant of grace. They're all gracious because God didn't have to reveal anything about himself world where ants were just thanking God is good and gracious God, who reveals himself to us through Plan condescension is is important because the covenants that we make. I make a covenant with my wife in marriage right. We are both finite beings we are born and we will die.

We make a covenant with Noah church covenant or early covenant together to do whatever. If you break that covenant between finite and finite. It's it's broken you coming kind of right when you break it covenant like was broken with the covenant of works starting in the garden when data is broken like Darren said of the rebellion of man. We have made. We have broken any eternal covenant and we have any eternal consequence that must be paid in so God stepping down and making covenant with man is different than man, saying he God infinite being greatest of all, I get a covenant with you it's it's it's I would say it's consistent with LDS theology that they are striving to become like God. So would make sense that they would constantly be trying to make covenants with God right there putting him themselves almost on his level as these are striving to be that way really appreciate this.

These answers dare not jump in and I'm kinda key off of something you said so you said God is under no obligation to us and when I came out of the LDS faith and just a couple years later after accepting Christian baptism and heading towards ministry started to attend seminary and study theology.

The concept of God as creator X Nyla creator was something that you know is kind of anathema to Latter Day Saints and so as I study that started on the concept and really started to understand how important that is to our understanding of who God is, in relation to us that the statement you made that God is under no obligation to us really make sense to me, for the first time I met him in the report represent our our Mormon friends and and asked because for them. They view God as a literal father, both spiritually and beyond the physical sense as well.

So what would you say to a lattice of my symbol will God is our literal father would, wouldn't he be neglectful if you didn't keep up obligations to us, how do you answer the question, monitors the aspect of UC presented in Scripture only existed between one man and God. Initially that was Adam and we also see and we can see that in Genesis qualify for our talks about that Adam is the sound being the center God and your hope with others and open up.

Maybe we'll get to the God and his obligation to creatures is he talks about them in the Sonoma Manning Matthew five what she gives is that he gives rain on the just and the objects he reduces what we call common grace is grace that nobody deserves and yet she gives it anyway and then we release it wasn't God under fatherly obligation to us what were really saying is that were entitled to something from God and what were vendors in order to get that bad relationship and entitlement we have to say if it will guard your heavenly father, John doesn't claim heavenly fatherhood over us in our sinful state. He claims creator over us, but he actually sends spiritual like the Pharisees and those who are challenging Jesus Jesus as your father, your sons of Satan. You have a different spiritual father than what you think you'd because genetics doesn't tell us what the hardest first Corinthians 15 to Paul very clearly since the physical comes before the spiritual. And so about father Henry can't look to a spiritual father because we have to look what is her relationship with God grounded on biblical wisdom, Bible study about our relationship with God and in it sounds correctly. I God, your father, but really what I think were trying to say is God's entitled to give me something in God's obligated to give me something that's obligated to relate to me in a certain way. But if all we are his creatures. Psalm eight talks about this. What is man that you are mindful and every relationship of hours to God has to begin at that level of humility because if we don't have that humility before God and understanding their creaturely and really I can understand everything God doesn't. It makes absolutely no sense why God would say you know what you bring Cyrus against you Israel to destroy you from an insect because you forsaken the covenant on your brand job longer density in a blended family can see that sensitive. If we have a copy of God's obligated to provide for us the way that we think of fatherhood now that would sound slick abuse. But if were creatures before God, who violated and internally perfect God's command that are worthy of of justice than what God is doing isn't abusive.

It's just us in every moment of pleasure every moment of joy that we have on this life is actually an act of grace from the God who should rightfully snap except Paul can I ask you question can in follow-up to that is it true that the LDS teach and believe that everyone is born a son of God.

Yes, that a child of God and so I think that's an important distinction as well.

Right. We believe that we are born in sin, the Bibles are. The Bible teaches that we are born in sin and therefore an enemy of God and anyone outside of the initiation of God and the grace of God in our lives will remain in that condition and so I think even at the beginning of what they teach. God is our literal father. They believe that that is true of every people person who is born and we would say outside of God by grace, saving some we are not born sons of God. We are born enemies of God in doing exactly what we want and that is violating and rebelling against God after son of God is such an important term in Scripture because we think Accenture is genetic procession that the Bible over and over and over use of Summit God is actually referring to a position and what we know who. Adam is called the synagogue he stood positionally as God's firstborn to receive the blessings for obedience. If you obey the curses. If you disobey Israel is called the son of God and then Jesus might be surprising to a lot of your LDS listeners to know that Jesus wasn't even declared the son of God until he rose again in Romans one it says that he was declared to be the son Time because what happened is Psalm 89 and someone turned God says I will make you my firstborn son synagogue as a position of preeminence and rightful ownership of the earth, one who is considered the son of God is the one who God has placed into the vice regent.

His king under him over the earth exist as a king is really supposed to act like a king in the land of Canaan, and then expand to the ends of the earth, and they all fail and say they lost.rightful spot before God and above man until Jesus came and he died on the cross.

Persons living a perfect life rose from the dead and then what is he saying at the end of Matthew all authority in earth is been given to me.

She became that King under undergrads a speech in his human nature is afterimages had two natures in one person distinctive indivisible is fully God and fully man and as fully man.

She ascended to the role of chain are essentially irregular.

That's what sending God actually needs phone messages we defend are so confused because we think of it in our terms setting God's terms. Thank you both for your biblical response to my question. I really want to try to try to represent our Latter Day Saints friends and how they might think about these things, and anyone mentions that I can of the LDS faith that I want seminary and you know, understanding that our relation ship positionally to God.

As creatures who is really important and I think it's key to this understanding trying to tease out the differences between the way Latter Day Saints my view, covenants and Christians might be covenants because if I understand my relationship to God as as creature knows he said there is under no obligation to buy what she does in his faithfulness and his grace is because of who she is, not because of who I am and so I think that's really important to understand that the edits keep executor to see was also mentioned. I mean, along the lines of Paul standard Latter Day Saints to view every single person who's ever been born to be a child of God and like you said Darren. The other mechanic comes with a belief that God owes them something in for that reason Latter Day Saints, don't believe that hell there was any notice some degree of heaven because why would a loving heavenly father sent his children to hell for eternity.

So it doesn't I'm going full-circle. You know when you get that one belief wrong.

It influences everything else so I'm really glad we are able to touch him.

That dives into also lighted Latter Day Saints doctrines of redemption of the dead because so often Dell Dell say what God only gives grace to some by Disney offer grace to all know the response that is will God loves everyone equally because rose children so every single person without exception will have the opportunity to either accept the gospel here or in the spirit world, after they die and then we do the baptisms and confirmations for them in the temple so that everyone gets a fair shot enough like as if it again as if it's something that's due to estimate something the God owes us and it's so hard for them to hear the Bible and it says you know I will show compassion on whom I will show compassion. I will show mercy on whom I will show mercy that is radically different from the LDS entire world. So that's, so I hope I hope I Latter Day Saints garrison and know that that we love them and that were not trying to bully them or to you know make them feel like were so much smarter than they are. What were trying to show the God of Scripture and how he has revealed himself and sometimes trees have to be hard sometimes. Sometimes we don't have all the easy answers to all these questions so we, but we just have to we have to place after trust what God has said about himself, rather than take the easy answer seems more comforting. You were so prone to secure what we do seven parent and Internet were souls who drawn your LDS church son so much more loving than the God that you just said because you talk about Ralph and Helen treat Creator and creature, a father and son and it doesn't sound as long but if you were to consider not. I just listen to macular attention analog and you have here a king whose loan of 10,000 talents which would be if you were to walk into two court and you had a debt 3060 or hundred million dollars note, we would expect the book to be file notice. If you are a bystander to that transaction, we would expect that person has no right or claim may be made to the advertisement. Justice needs to be done loosing a noun or political appointment when other side when we want justice to be you know if the election was stolen, then we need to get those traders and thieves are better if he wasn't there when you get the other traders and thieves. All that we want justice in another parable. This king who loans out hundred million dollars year. However, much of be in the inflation today. She forgives it he doesn't even ask him to work.

It actually just forgives the debt that same since the accident is old in a few months worth of wages and he goes and he throttles that certain has been Grace Truman, and Jesus times parable to show that if you have been have received grace but to change your heart to give grace. But what that shows as well for us is that the God who would give eternal life to any warm ups once impact of grace so far beyond her comprehension. If God merely gives grace to those who have done all that they can do, then God is simply acting, just that's not a gracious or trying to God the sister good judge if we've actually earned protective grounds. If we haven't kept all promises to effectively blacken them every single day, every moment of every day in the way we think, to do all and yet God makes to grant even one of us to sit beside him in heaven. That is far beyond any measure of grace we have ever seen or known in this life.

Is it so important for us to understand how to realize that what might sound nicer is really has a bitter pill on the backend sands hardship strength is full of life in grace and truth on the receipt. If one truly amen thank you and this great fight. I think at any point. It's been awesome stopping point enough like you leaving it living in a high plan of just gold gold all around great guy, so I think if so, continued consumer discussion of the biblical covenants. We Artie mentioned the Abraham a covenant. We also mentioned the covenant of works, so from a broad perspective from your from your perspective because I assume the both of you will do some kind of Reform Act is covenant theology. So what covenants does God make in the scope of the Bible so if you can you can do chronologically enough you why L from beginning to and what what kind of covenants does God make and not necessarily in-depth but just like in general, what Purpose today serve you first about window entity on the your explanation of the covenant of works that it is phenomenal.

Then we can get into that, like the specific ones and just give a brief description of each one.

Yeah yeah yeah nice yeah what we see the way God relates to his creatures to his people is by means of covenant. So the way what God did in the garden.

Is he creating a covenant with Adam where he said.

There is unity are to be fruitful and multiply, take dominion in the beer and if you obey thereunder not to eat such a positive command may be fruitful and multiply, take dominion in the negative command is. Do not eat the tree of the knowledge of good naval how you look at that me saying see the word covenant anywhere in Genesis 1 and two are what we do see is the promise of the Sabbath rest in Genesis 2. There is this delighted contented ceasing framework that God demonstrates to his creature.

This is what it looks like when everything is perfect and good as the rest of God. And we also see the tree of life that if you were to take receipt of this after the fall in Genesis 3 verse 22 God says to another Adam's fall, and if you are taking this tree she would live to what we understand. You have to have the word in Scripture to the concept to be present right so there's no word in Scripture and in Genesis 23. God made a covenant with Adam, but we see the promise of blessings for obedience and the promise of curses for disobedience.

If you muted the tree you will surely die. That's what we would call a lot. It's been called a number of different things for a covenant of creation plan that is most popular. Other term for this, it's usually called the covenant of works that talk a covenant of works because if Adam had had done what God sent. She would have earned an the right to eat from the tree of life and live forever without vendor, the only obligation God was under to get back was the obligation treat himself because he perceived himself chrome strip. Have to get I not promise but you did that if Adam had fulfilled. He would have earned that same speech that's really important because Adam is the only person ever lived on the face of the earth who actually could have earned his way to heaven and someone who broke about, and eventually a knowledge of evil.

You can go to and Jack came upon mankind physical death. Later on, but spiritual death and separation immediately.

At the time it happened, but Genesis 315 is one of most important and precious verses in all Scripture because it did not verse, God makes a promise and curses the serpent that he says the seed of the woman, the offspring of the woman will bruise your head and you shall bruise succeeding God in that moment made a promise of the Messiah to come and would set right what had happened at the fall document we call the covenant of grace of the promise of the covenant of grace and works in the covenant of grace of these two overarching covenants throughout all Scripture and then we have what we would call preservative fragments and to see that when you get to know the very next covenant in Scripture, God makes a covenant with Noah saying despite your sinfulness. Despite the fact that every thought and intention of the heart of man is wicked all the time, which is a damning statement home. Despite that, I will not judge the earth again with water and will not wipe out all human life again and under said assignment this year to see my bow in the heavens, preservative covenant, God basically sang this I made a promise to Alvin and the monitoring Messiah so I can't I'm not going to lie about human conduct under preserve humankind, despite their said July would receive a boat a rainbow flag. Pride parades of exec that really pretty.

Because God made a promise to wipe us out despite her sinful and good luck to preserve the loan of the Messiah and then we see a covenant with God made to Abraham.

This covenant has broken a physical aspect in a spiritual aspect is going to be people that come from Abraham. This people is going to be the light of the Messiah and then God's people land and prosperity recommendation give them kings to this people through the animal tumbled 12. He will bless all the families of the earth will be blessed as to have this covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is repeated throughout procedure than his people. And when you see the old covenant, but what she was especially refers to as the old Craig and that's the covenant on signer.

The Mosaic covenant word God is making a covenant with his people that he is redeemed. So this is the people that made promises to through Abraham. Now she's codifying about covenant and Sanjay my people have expectations, you will obey my moral law and the negative valve is positive on his other extra commandments.

The ceremonial laws. These civil Commandments enough energy to do that in order to obtain blossom in the old covenant that Mosaic covenant is kind of like the sound of what happened in the Garden of the receive God probably claim history a little bit here is my people you're going to be my son, is my first been better Texas for details.

Recall my son out of Egypt secures his covenant with his son, if you obey. Do this and you will live.

It says in Leviticus 19. That's the essence of the old covenant, the essence of the covenant of works do in life that I didn't do, and considers all kinds of threats to the contradicting gardeners one more covenant narrowing the focus even more sick days from now I Abraham now had David here is this covenant of the King. Who's gonna come through and David. This came is going to rain forever so he's going to be and do add another could do is to be and do what Israel never tried to he will obey and he will reign in God preserves them through June through Babylon to exile.

Finally, Jesus comes in. In Jesus that promise that was made in Genesis 315 and promise that he made to Abraham that through Abraham would be the seed would come and bring blessing upon their Galatians 3 tells us that seed that promise to Abraham, but was a gospel that was the covenant of grace and God makes this promise of the covenant of grace to his prophets in Ezekiel and Jeremiah to give you a heart of stone redneck the tablets of stone on Mount Sinai is the law you can't forget numb to give you a heart of flesh. And maybe under bring you back to you be giving her spirit merely vibe you going to make you a new person from the inside out in Jesus comes in the Galatians tells us he was born under the law to.

He was born without him. He himself was without sin he took on the lawfulness he took on the covenant of works for us and said there's only one person before he put her in heaven, but was adamant he failed, but I am going to find into merit salvation that my perfection in life than on the night before he died he began he changes to his disciples and the oxygen delivered center attributed their home. Since this is the new covenant in my blood and then when he died on the cross. She she created he them wrap into being on the new covenant.

If you took that promise of grace in Genesis 215 and you've made it happen.

He realized it in his broken body in his burial and his resurrection, and so after that there's no other covenants between God and man Jesus and self-fulfillment. You are either in Adam Brandon's five cents for you or any placed there to federally heavens to covenant, hence and Richard and Adam knew Siegler out and earned his death.

But if you are in Christ, your student, Christ that's eternal life. And so that's that's the essence of covenant theology types of covenants receive and how does holds the whole Bible together and review Jesus is so when you look at covenants throughout the Bible and you look at each one. There like Darren said that it's not always as explicit as when he was talking with Abraham versus I'm making a covenant with you or with Noah when he says in making a covenant with you.

You can see different elements of the covenant right there. The conditions of the of the covenant here the conditions then there is the sign of the covenant right with Noah. It was the rainbow there was at with Abraham. There were circumcision right and then there were the rewards of the covenant rightly. These these things again. If you do these things. This is what will happen right cc these different elements and so even if it isn't called. Here's the covenant right.

Like David, it was very explicit rate him and he says I'm making a covenant with you and your offspring is going to be on the throne forever and see.

Look for those different elements throughout throat what the Bible talks about. That's absolutely great. And then thank you so much for that.

That's pretty much the entire semester's worth of covenant theology probably get a seminary just condensed in about 10 minutes is just perfect death very much abolish anything that just that I'm about 60 pages in to the book and I feel like maybe I don't need to regress now or 80s cover is not Glover's book that's 00 Palmer Robertson (of his undertakings ever. Yeah, thank you so much yeah I agree that it's important to point out that the aspects is a lot of people especially, even Calvinistic Baptists that have an issue with this idea of the covenant of works but there's a great book. Also by by Richard Marcellos getting the garden right when I started studying covenant theology read a book and not just that blew my mind. I never anything like that before any points that out. He goes to the confession enter the Bible to show that yes exactly what menacing even if the work covenant is not use their all the parts of the covenant in with Adam in the garden. Are there with Noah with Abraham, with David there out there all their so you can you don't have to call the covenant of works and call whatever you want, but it was a covenant that God made with Adam in the garden that he broke and because of that where we are all fallen and I just use explain a beautifully thank you very much on knowing a go at gun point noted climbing to.

I would recommend trying to read huge, very really until like pain is difficult to go to the people who read a lot to distilled a very good layer temperature important and we did.

My brother Majesty were getting brilliant in the fullness of archaeology, we deny the covenant of works on the front-end. We will always bring in the back saying this is very important for us as Christians because when we talk about the company worship Adam and the covenant with Jesus. We talk about to go to big theological challenges that active righteousness of Christ and the passive righteousness of Christ. The active righteousness of Christ is where Jesus himself fully obeyed all the law perfectly and perpetually for us in the passive righteousness is what she humbly received passively the punishment that we deserved so without both of those truths and we salvation would depend on us so for 10 Corinthians 521 says of God, made Christ, who knew no sin to become sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God right so we receive God's righteousness, indigent penalty. It's this double imputation that Martin Luther talked about the great exchange when we did when we fail to acknowledge or believe that we see earned merited favor from Jesus for another way to put it is we are saved by works just not ours was saved by Jesus's words, when we fail to believe that they were always going to believe that it depend against Exxon Mobil and archiving as long as I maintain my faithfulness before God. Then I made it out and glory at the end that Jesus did on the front end regulation, controversy right there were saved by faith and perfected by works in positive no anathema made never be. We are saved by faith and perfected by the Spirit through faith alone. The whole way through. All are all we do is question is you look to the finished work of Jesus received that, in and out. If we can obeyed and followed Dan imperfectly emplaced is always perfect because he respected and so that's about covenant works when you call it is so important to Christianity and we lose it we always end up with some kind of legalism on the backend just to make up for our contrast to the Jesus Way out of this mess and William Nash is born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, commonly referred to as the Mormon faith.

All of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ base and teaching the name of our podcast out of brightness six, John 19 calls Jesus, the true light which gives light to everyone you found life beyond Mormonism brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own. Thus, out of brightness purpose is to share our journeys of faith God has done in drawing us to his son to have conversations about all aspects of the transition fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between. Glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around and ask a quick question so I could visit her the impression that these two covenants were enforced at the same time I don't know this is a question I know but soon James Everett Julio talks about Abraham, he believed God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness. So was he justified the same way that we are on it was a covenant enforced manner. How does that work in the Old Testament that is fantastic question anyone I know, talking with some of my other former LBS plans as well as a very really makes it such a foundational question. First, against time tells us that all those who were seated in the Old Testament were saved by looking to the rock, who was to come and apart from faith and apart from the working of the Spirit in the hearts of men. In Romans eight review these 11 it's impossible to please God and if a face-off is what pleases God. Right then so they didn't know who Jesus was and from that very first moment after the fall. They knew that there would be in the slot and then is not even see a developed theology with can enable related knew that sacrifice is needed to be right with God and that it wasn't the type of sacrifice, but rather the heart behind the sacrifice those important and so the covenant of grace which promised and this is where the snow gets into what type of covenant theology to be believed is Presbyterians and reformed Baptist city very similar and very different things. At this point, right right reform buddies were my own identity.

My tradition is that defendant basis promised in Genesis 315 and every single person who has ever been saved since then. Until Jesus comes again is saved through the promise of the covenant of grace that was realized and enacted by Christ. Now that are Presbyterian bankers would say that that promise was the covenant of grace. Check a covenant of grace existed in its fullness and then just under different administration, but even though we differ on our understanding of how those covenants work out were both saying the same thing about salvation. The only way that anybody was ever said was that they were looking forward to Dr. to Christ and what she would do on our behalf yet.

And a lot of times the covenants are a Colossians talks about the mystery that is revealed right, not that it's like Sherlock Holmes were trying to figure things out. It's a mystery in that it is it is slowly revealed over time.

So yes, it is something where we look back and say you know Abraham had a very short period of history to look back on right he still insured you note new Genesis 315 that the covenant of good of grace in God he sacrifice to God and in the he demonstrated faith in God. Of course, but you see that mystery is slowly revealed right you look at the Passover.

That mystery was partially revealed again in these kind of types that you can look back to and they understood them as something greater was to come.

David when he received the covenant that God made with him he didn't look and say wow this is great Solomon's can be on the throne. She looked and said the second part of the Trinity. Jesus is going to be on the throne, the son of God is going to be on the throne. I believe David knew that and David understood that not as fully as we understand today but I don't think he was so for example, only Eve had her first son after the promise rate.

Genesis 315.

Some would say. She said hey Seth is been born God's given me a son what she was saying was God's given me the offspring that is going to crush the head of Satan. She believed the Messiah had come.

While he didn't write because he died and he didn't feel the loss of the they have this forward in in in Jewish history, they would pass things down and how they would speak things and so they would.

These covenants work were talked about in this history was talked about in the grace and in Genesis 316 was passed down so they understood what was promised and then of course you know people during Jesus time had forgotten about what the covenants really pictured.

They thought the Messiah was coming in a very physical sense, right they were looking for a Savior like one of the judges are like David the king that they they revered. They wanted a physical Messiah to come and eradicate the Romans and that's why they rejected Jesus so bad and they do really to this day because the Messiah isn't killed.

Messiah conquers and so that's why they rejected him and that day and that's why they rejected him.

You know even even still today.

I know that's not LBS necessarily but does listen to one of your sermons on the on the website was upon the tale of two Kings referencing that prophecy about how the serpent would bruise his heel that he would crush his hand and I can see you on the fact that what you just said about the Messiah and dying and being that the deathblow supposed to be dealt to the serpent and South is going to get since I could see it appearing that that wasn't the fulfillment of the prophecy, but actually it definitely was the fulfillment of prophecies that can interesting how that works out. Sometimes you mentioned to like going back to the original question Michael that the reason why we can why Paul could quote Genesis 15 in the book of Romans for the doctor justification for people not day was specifically because there say the same way. In Paul's time as Abraham was saved. Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. So if we took this idea that the Jews were saved in some other way than they were in the time of Paul.

He couldn't be able to quote Abraham is the prototype for how we are saying so is the same covenant of grace since enough since Adam and Eve were were left the garden, you know, they're often a covenant of grace. Ever since then.

You know what that would like you said, Genesis 3 when that laptop proclamation is made it the same way of salvation. Sorry, policy, theaters can say something. As I mentioned on Sunday as well you know we talk about Israel and I think a lot of times people get caught up in this idea because it is a people group they call them the Jews.

They say anybody who was born a Jew. They were they were Israel right. Paul very clearly says not everybody who is of Israel is Israel wouldn't be very inconsistent of God to say, in the Old Testament listen as long as you were born and you have the proper bloodline.

Your good now you have to believe in you. Did you know this is how you do it would be very inconsistent.

So something that was very helpful for me in making this distinction as I was studying is just calling them from the beat from Genesis till now in Genesis to Revelation is calling them God's people.

We will even walk into well that the Bible talks well not specifically tomato wheat we think of the invisible church right if I walk by someone and I don't know their Christian it doesn't make them not part of the church right there is the visible church, there's the invisible church when you walk into a church as well.

There are, you know, the Bible refers to sheets and sheep in wolves right and not all of Israel is Israel. And so we look at that and say there are God's people from the beginning and they are God's people through the end of history and that in that distinction really helped me understand it because even when you think of Ruth. Think of Rahab you think of all these people that should never have made it into the Bible and have spots in the genealogy comes back to what you know the song about writing LBS talking, what makes you part of God's people from an LBS perspective and maybe I'm overstepping very restrictive ambit been seeming by making and keeping covenant, you are proving that you are God's people, but with God.

What makes you, God's people is that you have been saved by grace through faith you've been justified by heaven and consummates you, God's people, you know it's it's job for John no one. It's not by rote manner by the flashing by the will of God. And so we do something that makes us God's people. God is the one who declares over us and recently received by faith that we are. That's what makes us God's people beautiful exactly. I think that's how LOL this might push back and say well, God offers the conditions of the covenant first and then we can make that covenant with him as I think that's kind of how they would they might explain that but yet but you had God not only offers a covenant he makes a covenant right. It's not that the Jesse he puts the ball from the table and then you have to sign at the bottom. He writes it up inside to himself.

So we talked a lot about the covenants of the Bible. We've also like you because I already asked answer the question later. It sounds like I know the Darren.

We talked about how you hold to 1689 federalism rate and submenu. It also agreed that since we got we got 316 antifederalists on the board and filling.

I feel like I'm home clarify anything for people who might be listening, who don't understand that. So the idea of Adam, correct me if I'm wrong. The idea of Adam in being that federal head that past sin down to everybody in Adam by one man sin entered into the world.

We were all different here right, we have probably all have different eye color, hair color, you know, height, and we all get those those characteristics from her parents. One characteristics that one characteristic that we get from our parents that all of us will get her from our parents that we were passed were children is the sin and that's that's federalism you will is the Latin word to use and agreed with the covenant. So when we talk about a federal head or federalism bridges Latin eyes and covenantal head cover mentalism and you'll receive us in the United States. We have a federal government that was established by 50 states covenant and together saying we will have one government. I am not in the Bible. Have you know all of Adam's offspring coming together saying we have one had present a problem with drugs. The one who says there's a covenant I'm making a covenant with Adam. Adam was created perfect holy and righteous so she was the perfect representative for all mankind home as a user federal head in nonsense. He stands there covenant head if he keeps a covenant everybody gets the blessing if you fail to covenant everybody gets curses of it that we might think that's that's all about software. I however should I get what Adam got makes because if I only finally I had been there and said Adam had everything we do have a similar nature, yet he failed know we received from him because he stood in her place and were believer in Christ, we should have no problem with this at all, because we also received from somebody else who stood helpless in those salvation in Christ are and that's again.

Romans five the sink.

She for this whole understanding of federal head and federalism and you get what Adam got in Christ nuclear Christ.101 amazing promise to registered greater effusions wanted to do. No bugle blast of all the blessings in heavenly places in God, being rich in mercy longs to lavish upon us the riches of his kindness and grace. Why is Jesus earns that he earned her us just as much as an earned death threats that were in it. It's amazing race, amazing grace, that we get something here and ask the question that some of the same lessons might have and I want to make sure I'm not understanding her misunderstanding as well. So because Jesus the second Adam right and you said that if Adam had kept the covenant of works, then everyone would have benefited from that and because he disobeyed everyone received the cursing that she brought upon herself by dissolute disobedience. Were talking about Jesus.

Jesus perfectly kept the covenant right perfectly. Did and carried out that the work that the father given them to do. But not everyone receives that benefit so it almost sounds like what were saying is that Adam keeping the covenant would've been superior to Christ keeping the covenant so can you. Can you touch on that for us because I think it's like it's a question that the latter-day Saints might have injected everybody who is in good student, is Jesus keeping the actually obtained everything the corporate gangs who are in Christ Jesus accomplished these the same as what Adam was offered not obedience and merits eternal life, and so to say that Adam would have gotten it would've been better if Adam had done this dots will be at that point we fall on the secret of the mysterious wisdom of God word doc told us in Deuteronomy about what is revealed belongs to us from what is kept secret belongs to him. So oftentimes we get to this point, we wonder why why did God allow you know and one of the things that this is where you, the question of free will often gets brought up and things like that dialogue are too deep into it. God offered. He could have made Ottoman comments on absolutely no choice but to this getting back to an but she didn't because God wanted.covenant to be freely, and ultimately earned if Adam had no ability to to fail when she didn't really. There wouldn't have anything to earn because there is no possibility of failure in nonsense and so about three will so to speak, that we have a section of free will is based on contingency. We are contingent creatures and so ours. Our concept of free will is always undergirded by the ultimate solvent free will of God is the only truthfully being Adam was free with in the con.

The constraints of his creature. He could have obeyed.

You could have disobeyed God allowed him to disobey the only reason were given is because it pleased God to reveal the glory of both his justice and his mercy, and in Adam falling and center is God's justice toward sin is displayed in God's glory towards the good and his mercy is displayed towards those who are safe and that some stupid creature to be extremely unfair that sound that's why we would segment Adam really was competitive and juicy. Brenda for everybody. But that's because we don't see things from a God centered view. We don't value the glory of God the way God values the glory of God and God's revealed some of it to us and he asks us to receive that by faith and trust in the God being all wise, all going on the all-powerful has done what is right to make God of all righteousness.Abrahamson's been talking about the destruction of Sodom will you destroy the righteous with the unrighteous with the God of all righteousness. Do what is evil. You know that God would exclude no God is the God of all righteousness. He will never do what is evil. But he hasn't. Oh it to us to tell us everything about what he's done and that Chase is Canada rabbit trail little bit on her question was. Adam did have the opportunity to do more than what Jesus did and then Paul would say in Romans five emphatically actually not everything because it's it's all related to humans.

Your covenant head Adam didn't obtain the blossom and so we don't operate Dragon operate on hypotheticals. There is a view of God. Paul Bollen is in the middle knowledge of the job that guy just intercedes with the best possible way for would've been an Pixar path and the guide is not depending on what we do.

God determines often and said God Adam failed boat Jesus succeeded.

That makes Jesus infinitely greater than the beneficence in the covenant that she infinitely greater than the covenant on fail because Jesus actually did what what she was commanded to do. Consider, since none of the meandering world on a God enough that actually answer the question, but I hope it's helpful.

And then I want to cut a step back and remind our listeners that that question comes from a place of again the assumption that we deserve salvation's and so when you start talking about well known. The LDS view looks better because everyone is saved to a kingdom of glory you stepping away from the view that where God is sovereign and where we have to say. Ultimately, regardless of how many of his creatures. God chooses to save God is worthy of our worship and that's a realization that for a Latter Day Saints is tough to come to and I but is negative is a realization that is necessary for understanding who God is and who you are in relation to him so that I appreciate the answer just wanted to try to tease out some things that Latter Day Saints might be thinking. Is there listening to questions so one of the kind of talk a little bit about why there are so many different covenant theological systems. You know why Dave when you when you look at Lutheran say they kinda focus on the log gospel distinction don't really have no like a super indeed detailed robust covenant theology like that came later, the reformers is also dispensationalism has that the seven different dispensations on time. There is a reform pedal Baptist covenant theology that we had mentioned their 1689 federalism any and there is also even a different kind of subtly different reform Baptist covenant theology there. So me different ways to look at all the covenants, why why are there so many systems. Why is it so difficult to tie everything together. Why, why didn't God just saying this is the accountability system that you need to believe a lie to me. Just make it absolutely clear in a little eloquence question because Latter Day Saints will say well if God made so clear in the Bible. Why don't you all agree on the same thing right now. I wanted acid was you and I think that's a fair question. Every time we come to a biblical truth great theological point, there is always the danger of reading into the Bible. What are either preconceived ideas or our theological structures will tell us, rather than saying in its it is very hard to say well just let the Bible speak for itself right because we all come with preconceived ideas right and so there are I would see from the outset. That is the very basic reason, so we will either swing one way you know if if Lutherans you know say it's this because and then they go into their history of. Here's the reason why we focus on this and it comes from a lot of these things from our past right and what Luther taught and what what you're these teachings and then the teaching in their church. Up until that point order. We swing over the other direction say well we overemphasize these things it with the lack of other things right dispensations.

That was a note in a school of thought that came in no and started in in that person had a lot of influence rightly. They had their own seminarian.

So of course there's can be a lot of people who follow after that and that dispensational thinking. The question of why Lake there. There's also the different differences it would be great if we all just reunified like we all had the same thing right in and I and I agree with that but the important thing to remember about the distinction between Lutherans and Presbyterians in Baptist reform Baptist in this kind of Baptist. The other kind. What we do all agree on is salvation by faith alone, by grace alone in Christ alone, and if we were differing in those types of things. I think the it the modes of salvation. If someone says no you have to be saved through this that or the other and we would in the church historically has said no, you're a heretic right that is wrong. All the church agrees with that. If someone comes in and says no, Jesus isn't God that the historic church and the Bible says you're a heretic right. They've agreed on that from the very beginning right if someone denies the Trinity or someone you know denies very basic things about what the Bible teaches. They declare that he heard that those people, heretic, and they've done that resoundingly when we get to these types of things I would say again, these are gray areas, but like listen will get together it. You know Darren and I both have preached at a Presbyterian Church right they were searching for passing didn't have a pastor for a long time. We would happily preach there.

Why because they believe the gospel would we love for them to understand covenant theology and reformed theology in Lake walk lockstep with us. Yes, that would be great, but the important thing is they get the gospel right and I I'm sure there's there's deeper ways of looking at that and why there are differences in there's a lot of different reasons why you know what when I look at that's that's what I I understand. I hope it doesn't trip up our LDS friends who know say why are there so many denominations well there are those denominations, but we all agree that the Bible is the word of God is inspired.

It doesn't need to be added to, it should not be taken away from. We believe in salvation by grace and by faith alone and grace alone through Christ alone like we agree on the major things and those little things. Although it changes the name of the building. It won't change our eternal destiny.

It comes down to media ownership as the mediator between God and man mediated as the Bible tells us is placed on each believer is responsible before God for what they believe. If, however, the mediator is church, hope an institution tradition that institution person poke rubber tips to determine what everybody else believes and so liquid brought excellent #know we have. We do have unity because the Ephesians tells us, the church is built upon the foundation laid first by the prophets and apostles related and effusions forces we have one more one baptism, one faith teaching of baptism of Christ, we have a very unified set of beliefs when it comes to the essentials.

In fact, I'm going go there and got a friend is planting a church in Decatur Illinois and I've been on the accountability board with him to guide his leaderless accountability board the kitchen planters are from Dr. Stokes like ours became the pastor. He's closest stand but leaving this kind of those boards of jet will join together in a common cause because we have a common view of salvation and that we have churches in the area around us that we would disagree with that. Vocally about some some secondary issues yet broadly know they were on the singular noncompetition because the others that while these differences, there's a unity that the reason why these differences is because each individual believer is responsible before God for how they can description what they understand from Scripture.

I'm reminded of the proverb says it's the glory of God to hide knowledge base, the glory of change to seek about. There is a type of glory Viacom's daughter Susan. We immerse ourselves in Scripture and seek to know and understand more more previews and there's a growth process for us as we come to know more and more confused and like Paul put away childish things become more mature and I think in human appeals to this in Philippians that those of you who are mature. This way if any of you disagree God will show him on. So Paul even anticipates that on some of these matters of doctrine is going to be disagreement. As long as it's not over the essential mounds of dark and then after that they diversionary action are different views of covenant theology in particular dispensational theology of the law.

I just comes down to a liquid group under sciences study of hermeneutics.

The study of how do we study Scripture. How do we understand Scripture home do we allow the Old Testament to be primarily on the New Testament train trip with the DO the always different systems that we used to study and interpret Scripture which should come out of Scripture itself hope we were along Scripture to interpret Scripture, with our preconceived notions and theologies and ideas us, but we have chosen Scripture to judge those theologies judge those ideas judge them systems and see if it hold to be true. So, for instance, dispensationalism noticed, there's a ton of different kinds of dispensations and so will refer to the original late 1800s and early 1900s version of dispensationalism actually believed that Old Testament saints were saved by keeping the law. That's that's actually a denial of she Central Christian doctrine and so we recommend that is un-biblical. Even heretical system for understanding Scripture and now that system is changed so you have somebody like MacArthur he was a concerns of dispensationalism, but she doesn't believe that the adjustments interested in the law because they are saved by grace through faith and hold to this consistent unified belief in the method of salvation, but we have differences in how we understand Scripture because we come in Scripture. Nicholas and I think Darren touched on a couple things I think that's important. There are primary things in their secondary things right primary things you know Scripture being the word of God. Jesus being God.

Jesus is the only way of salvation. You know those types of things as primary issues and their secondary issues right what type of music you have in church know that II would put you know that the type of eschatology that you believe in right leg. There a lot of different things that we need to be gracious with people on it. It's very hard right when we would like everybody just to believe that the right thing because, of course, what I believe. I mean it.

It's biblical.

It's in the Bible delighted people believe it right and they would say well it's in the Bible, then why don't you believe what I believe but others prime in that's that's what I love so much on the primary things we celebrate we get together we pray you know and and and and we love it. But on the secondary things we can bicker back and forth we can poke each other we can laugh at each other and have fun with it right, don't take those two seriously. Nobody's excommunicating over those things in it and in if you do, you probably shouldn't think. Thank you for that. I really appreciate the you you both address it. The concept of there is still unity in the faith, even despite our differences, and I don't know Sen., but I've heard about. Thankfully, by the grace of God. Denominational lines done extended heaven will know it will no longer be separated by those church walls are those church signs will all be one church of Christ and and them. I also think you also for addressing the idea that it also depends on the hermeneutical method, and how we interpret Scripture, and I think everybody wants to come at the Bible and interpret it correctly and consistently, because we love God we love, truth, maybe this is so we had an episode with Jeremy Howard Hughes at Orchard Hills Bible church in Utah Valley and he submitted it, question. Maybe it be interesting to think I get your guys perspective on it on to his reposted in our Facebook or quote if the prophets of the Old Testament weren't actually giving national Israel a promise of future restoration did they know it." So when I got out as he was trying to ask about 10 of like literal fulfillment of prophecy of the restoration of Israel versus typological that's kinda what I got out of a bullet when what's your guys perspective on the house.

Yes, not I would say yes no intend of yes, in the sense of you first or second Peter talks about a second.

They knew the music they were prophesying, were not necessarily for the wind knew that there was going to be a leader fulfillment and that it was a mysterious fulfillment when it was shouting in this mystery, but I'd also say in the sense of the road near the court with the person being negative and actually gained national Israel promise of future restoration from your typically misses the investigator a secondary issue right because what unnecessary sent people greatly vary as to any significant say about we make an error when we assume that the spiritual fulfillment will be returned. Spiritual fulfillment isn't literal usually use that as our hermeneutic rent will I know I'm literal, literalist God made a promise to Abraham to give him the land and he walked to the land from North to South and God promised that he would restore Israel to combat land. There has to be a future restoration to the people of Israel and so we need to be all as it is, rather than things go along with it. Physical fulfillment is not necessarily an literal fulfillment.

God himself is spirit.

The physical is not the ultimate God himself being spirit review status of the spiritual is his preeminent elements of spiritual fulfillment is a literal fulfillment is just a fulfillment way. We didn't expect GK Peter Beale puts it in his New Testament biblical theology. He compares it to imagination the early 19th or 20th century. Early 1900s and the father promised sees a horse-drawn buggy and he tells his five-year-old son was near 20 removed on the house rudderless. I'm going to buy you a horse and buggy he promises access to the best mode of transportation that his son commuting considerable wealth. 15 years down the road. Henry Ford comes along and now you have the automobile and if she received the obliterated house and automobiles are sending a look back and say that you promised me a horse and buggy failed to come to harm you promise to give something matter has come along that fulfills what I thought it would be fading away grander method way that that could have even conceived of 50 music and I think that that's personally I think that's the right way to understand Scripture say that when the new covenant. Jeremiah 31 Ezekiel 36 says I will restore Israel. I will gather Israel back to me.

We actually see that happen next to receipt and asked to be very careful in its language that says that all Israel about Israel from all over the every corner of the room was gathered at Pentecost and the gospel God gathered national people and he also tells us in Romans 11 that is, those of faith who are injured or like I was saying earlier and so God did fulfill his promise by bringing in the Gentiles, making them true Israel and also then asked to bring in this eschatological fulfillment of all these promises in the restoration of a new people wrote the book of Matthew which I didn't get either to push through on Sunday mornings. You see, Mackey setting up Jesus is a new Israel and the 12 disciples as the new 12 try and receive this this type and antitype in Scripture as his hermeneutical method of typing antitype where the type he shot on the antitype in the performing is always greater and bigger than what the shallow pension. Some people will look at that and it's okay. But believers disagree with me on this issue.

The segment of the secondary issue that we can disagree or think when we when we make the Bible too much about those that have a one-to-one physical correspondence. I think we missed some of the glandular beauty and glory of the Lord God has given spiritual Hebrews 12 we have come to the kingdom which cannot be touched so much greater than sign the new Jerusalem in Revelation 21 is the bride of Christ church descending coming to Jesus and being united to Jesus. We think that Thursday. Future Horatio Bender again because it conveys a future literal thousand what's that's biblical orthodoxy way of working through that and I just negative. It's less than one gains promised in the church but to an area reading this agreement wanted and I enjoy a lot of unity and write lots of books about this lesson, sums it up this way and are talking about Abraham, he said, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He said these all died in faith, not receiving the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, so they were looking like they receive these promises having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth, so they knew it was more indifferent than physical land for people who spoke, and thus make it clear that they were seeking a homeland if they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would've had an opportunity to return. But as it is the desirable better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city and people might say, well, that was Abraham you know he fulfilled it will. He goes through all these people.

Jacob and Esau, Joseph, Moses, all these people in the very last two verses and in Hebrews chapter 11 he says this and all these talking about the people though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised.

Since God had provided something better like Dennis talking about for us that apart from us.

They should not be made perfect. Write soon. I think we take that first passage that was spoken. Abraham I don't think even Israel thought of like the sand. This physical portion of land.

I think they were longing for that homeland that was beyond your that was in heaven. Yet it is why Islam a 1689, Federalist ricin talk about Bob Bland of covenant theology and not Bland of covenant theology believes that the promise given to Abraham contained a spiritual and a physical promise is a physical promise of land and descendents in a nation and what's amazing to me is Joshua actually tells us about physical promise was fulfilled under Joshua 2145. It says that all of the promises God made to their forefathers. She fulfilled not one of them failed. All of them came to pass. It's a categorical statement that God makes them so when when Israel conquered the land, they were actually fulfilling the physical preservative promise that God covenant dictated but there is a spiritual promise. Underlying all about seed would come to a blessed quality or it would be a national blessing to be a global blossom.

Come through faith, the faith of Abraham had before for the promises of circumcision and covenant faithfulness to Genesis 1722 came about some guy that dual nature of the Abraham it covenant I think is is so cute. Understanding what was going on in the Old Testament there was a lot of physical things that were shadows pointing forward to ultimate reality that ultimate reality is fulfilled in Christ. And that's why covenant theology of why what really change for me growing up as a Christian Christian home. I grew up believing in a dispensational mortgage dispensational banking belief system but when I attempt Scripture.

I didn't see Christ in the Old Testament without understand what all those laws were bound disciples for them. That was one of the key things that a covenant of theology lost for me. In my experience of it.

Does it help me see it Calvin from beginning to Genesis to Revelation.

It's all about Jesus and whether to shadow or the substance the promise the fulfillment Jesus is at the center of all of it and and not really shaped and banished why I love covenant theology and what I figured so helpful to us as believers to see that structure because it really points us to Jesus and the gospel over and over and over man thank you so much and you know it's it's funny because as both of you are answering an answer. Probably freer for my questions that I submitted to you guys so not enough. You're consciously thinking about that RFID is worked out that way but one of our listeners.

Andrew Mills asked what's the one why Dwyer cometh so important to Christians.

Why is so important to understand covenants and I think you nailed it right there. Darren at least for me. Also, when I came out of Mormonism you know it's very difficult because what you keep what I throw away in all was everything. Ellen is a Mormon, wrong, or is some of that okay and I and I had to cannot reach out to deconstruct what we presume are taught what we believe and so that was part of it covenants how to settle work out and as I started studying and I was introduced to reformed theology through James White's debates. His program and I was attending simultaneously reformed Baptist church and an OPC church. I really want to give Presbyterianism a fair shake in our document. Previous episodes where the book of Mormon Courtney from Ron, Michael, your that you live Mormon master, but is there something along the lines of all those who believe that an infant has a need of baptism, remission of sins even has the thought of it is condemned to hell something on those lines. Very Michael you very close if you should die while in the thought. You will go straight to hell. So so you know when I found out that some Christians baptize infants. I was like okay I don't want to let my bias affect me in my theology I want to come to the Bible and I want to know what God teaches and also I was studying covenant theology is sitting there form Pinot Baptist covenant theology reformat discounted theology and I actually wanted to show out a few books related to current theology I don't have the English version actually this is the French version has got a nose look great aunt.

I forget what is called a particular Baptist covenant theology distinctiveness of 17th-century and particular Baptist Baptist covenant theology because it is a thesis bus that's violent about the French version because a semi mission in France. I wanted to get through it. I read it in English.

Still hidden in entirety the book in English as a candidates he is a French Virgin Mary that eventually I gave my English copy. My pastor set/of this one, but that's why I like this version is a lot smaller and basically just translates to a better covenant or more excellent covenant so that's a lot shorter to explain, but I just love the way he just tore down and and show exactly what you guys up in teaching and when I studied out the current theology as I see the merits of the reform Pinot Baptist covenant theology, but just the way he connects all the covenants together especially in the coming of the Sinai Sinai to covenant the cutting of the money given to Moses and how it's not the same substance as the covenant of grace that it's it's like you said it's a shadow of the covenant of works in an given to Adam in the garden in a do this and live is the kind of the motto of the Sinai covenant. It just made sense to manage so I think for me that's that's for the that's where covenant theology matters is there's practical implications. It's not just some kind of esoteric subject that you know that we can kind of like you know examine our navels all day and be like all that's interesting. That's cool. I think it does have practical applications like you're saying Darren. It points us to Jesus.

It shows us that beginning to end Genesis to Revelation is not just a mishmash of things happening one after the other. God had a plan and he is working it out in this progressive revelation progressive covenants that he made with Israel that that all were fulfilled in Christ, and point to Christ and suffer me that that's that's why it's important to me is is is a really helped me to understand art come to my position as enough to hold to the 16 and one Baptist confession because I believe that that that it's not infallible, but I believe that that confession. It describes biblical theology and condenses it in professional form is most consistent with what Scripture teaches and we love like we like we said we love our is between brothers and those of different views we just differ in a based on how we understand Scripture something to happen to me to get into covenant theology and back tested theology. It actually really made me appreciate my Presbyterian brothers and sisters in a way I had before. I used to think those guys baptize babies in the my bus just a holdover from Catholicism. They just didn't give up because the tradition the delegates are discreetly and that love him, but that there is a and the more I get into Bob.theology realizing that after coming to this plan.

There their genuine believe what the Bible says and I actually agree with them on a block of points which will really help me appreciate how rigorous they are and understand Scripture and how it comes to that practical application, but it also drove me to different practical application is understood the covenants with what I think is a more biblical way. Obviously they disagree with me but that's why on a Baptist is because of my understanding of the covenant that only those note that the members of the church are not people believed and the children, but only those who believe in God changes how you view how church should be structural ecclesiology on fencing that covenant theology like a senseless tight little package.

They might feel really big and it spans the whole Bible that it is kind of condenses biblical theology about how the Bible progresses in its revelation of truth in systematic theology everything the Bible says in the specific topic of truth and brings both of those disciplines together in one arena in Uganda get to see a lot of practical out workings for people.

It's okay. I want to touch on are not atlases clusters well and his question to see. He also really want to know is how does covenant relate to obedience and I think I can be a lot back to a lot of where you graduate.

LDS people come from that regard. Next covenant with us. We respond with covenants to God. We obey into covenant seems like from an LDS perspective to be a foundation for our obedience to God or faithfulness to God and so how does covenant for the Christian perspective related to our obedience and this is another key area were covenant theology has been immense practical application to life because if we are saved under the covenant of works than it is that if we do not obey regard. If you are saved under the covenant of grace than the covenant of works is no longer the law doesn't have to be obeyed anymore for salvation. All that we do. Now the same time get them salvation. We now obey Christ so all of our obedience of the Heidelberg and the Orthodox Baptist catechisms highlight that all of our obedience to God even as stated individuals is tainted with some measures because sin still the old man still cling so closely and say no active obedience as pure as we could imagine and their personal will after sufficed for the perfect command of God in Christ. It is reckons as being a righteous aunt not because we didn't because Christ fulfilled all of it shall be no longer obey for salvation, but we obeyed because respect and fact, our relationship to the law has changed so the law still exists its own abiding a commandment for us, not throw out the law of God no longer has the power to condemn and no longer that is looked at as being what is meritorious for us, or condemn them to us and it's been fulfilled and so now we are three in Christ to follow him imperfectly progressively faltering, and to seek to honor and obey because we believe in your hearts, and so hostile to mantis note this is what love your neighbor looks like looks at the been your parents not murdering, not committing adultery but still not having enough info session.

If you missed the second table of the law.

Love fulfills the law will Jesus fulfill that for us. The man who commands us to love and as we love one another we are actually obeying the commandments of God. Romans eight is drilling in the end, and amazing this capacity since were no longer condemned because you are in Christ and know what we could no longer do. By then the law because of the weakness of human flesh. God did write beautiful amazing bomb of the verse. What we can do. God did in English morphology up so that we might fulfill the law in Christ. So we no longer have to obey it to perfection. Jesus fulfilled before in Christ as we live out that love neighbor mostly God we obey the commandments because he did yet in and I think in summary, it's it's helpful as well. The think of it in the idea of identity. I think there are certain belief structures that people are striving for a certain identity right. I want people to know that I'm this way so I do these things right in order to fulfill this covenant, I need to do these things and it all boils down to the things that I do I'm striving for an identity right whereas, as Christians believing what the Bible says we live from an identity. We are children of God and because of that identity. We live differently, not in order to grab at an identity and try to be a certain thing. We are changed the right career for strength instead of 517.

We are new creations. We are new creatures. Old things are passing away behold all things at sorry old things have passed away behold all things are becoming new rates. We are that our identity has changed, and so we live from that identity that's that's great. Think of a fair responses.

Just as a quick side note, I want to be respectful of your time is okay if ask one question and then we wrap up very, very got overtime so I don't want to keep you guys up Ross so now I'm lemonade. Oh, Michael. If you're if you're starting to nod off a note door, you can log off and then you know what I want I want I will judge you, not even at the turn of your damn roses and I don't I know you get tired and I are your euros of really dismissive of messing with you not know seriously as a minimal edges and as I really love this discussion him. It's like were sitting under preaching right now and I was just as awesome. I'm really glad we got you guys on the program. Ides want to ask one more question is can a more practical thing and it came from a personal place because as latter-day St. I like like you were just finishing been my identity was wrapped up in what the LDS church. Tommy, I was a child of God. I was a priesthood holder. I was an elder and in the Latter Day Saints church. I held the Melchizedek priesthood I made covenants with God to which I would be held accountable. That's who I was, you know that's kind of my sense of identity. And so this is something that's very near and dear to many Latter Day Saints hearts. They believe that they've made covenants with God in baptism, missing the priesthood of the temple ordinances and in their marriage and so when we preach the gospel to them and we say that those covenants are not valid or you know that worst were trying to shed in the gospel to embrace it. There being asked to reject what they consider as part of their identity, resting them to basically change their lives forever asking them to reject what they feel God had given to them. So it's a very sensitive topic. I think in some it's something that you not supposed latter-day St. NL Christian is something I forget sometimes no. It's easy for me to forget that we are asking them to believe in Jesus and basically reject most of that identity that they've grown up with their whole lives. So how do you think we should approach sharing the gospel with them. With this in mind knowing that their covenants are so important to them and were basically telling them no, those really aren't important.

In a sense I would we go about doing that would like to share her spent and obviously have to be very sensitive in how you do that right mean you can drop bombs on people all day and they'll never know reject Jesus because of your approach rights and that's important how would I do it I would emphasize freedom and what I mean by that is most of the LDS that I meet.

Do not feel free they are burdened with all the things that they must continue to do to reach that whatever level of heaven write the highest level of course is the goal right there striving their burning in their know is this enough in my giving enough. You know maybe I don't see the blessings that I see in my life that I think I should see him trying to be obedient and it's driving them crazy because like where do I need to do in so they try to do more and so my focus would be on freedom right and I would talk about three things.

And if they're in my home.

It it it is.

It's an on-site. I love the Segway my my Wi-Fi names are GMF and we talk about the three things that really LDS. Don't understand what the Bible is talking about grace, mercy and forgiveness right in in in understanding those things. There is freedom in understanding that grace is not just everything that I do. And then Jesus makes God makes up the rest.

At the end that mercy is we deserve punishment and it's withheld from us that that when he says we are forgiven.

Truly it is all forgiven, and so going back to something we talked about earlier if we talk to you if you if you have friends who are seeking worshipers or you have homosexual friends or your friends that are know what whatever it anything I would never directly go after that because if they understand grace, mercy and forgiveness. The rest will take care of themselves take care of itself. And so it's probably very offensive. Right. So for example you don't want to go after Joseph Smith right away right because they're very like all men, they bristle even even people who aren't attending the award every Sunday right, who have maybe attended in years. You mentioned Joseph Smith in man there. The strongest woman you've ever met.

So I think going after the primary issues instead of secondary issues.

Talking about your final authority is the is it the Bible you know is Jesus God, why, how are we saved were saved by grace and then not that the covenants are important, but there secondary you know you can talk about that in and that's where the discipleship comes in where you are at deprogramming and then reprogramming right and so it is important that when I share the gospel with them.

I probably won't ever bring it covenant theology in by name. Talk about whole time. Of course, but not by name because that's not what's primarily important and a secondary discussion about grace and one time having a conversation with more machinery is one of the. So I still pray for this missionary because we also point out conversation were talking about glazing describing the grace that having been Jesus and then he actually asked me what is grace that ended in a review of the biblical view of grace was so different from what he understood and we are in talking about those covenants of what this is something that is so near and dear. I if I don't fulfill these if I leave the church I am is the one thing that's going to damn me Susan raking leaves, covenants that I've made note that Garrett is touches a lawyer send him more freedom if we were saved by grace.

After all that you can do. How could you ever know whether or not you've done enough and actually really honest with ourselves, not who we are to look at your covenant vows to your wife, your spouse, to husband, can you really say you've ever kept them perfectly like a fairytale who goes there was one person who did keep every bit of the biblical command perfectly and he did it for you if you believe in and got I think is is the key to gather your billing these cuttings that you made between you and God's heart is broken up already fail you've already fail to do everything perfectly, and the Bible is clear that these extra commands. If it's not in Scripture which a good command which it the Pharisees that they added these commands, and so one of the commands about slowly finding the Bible and check you've made a covenant that's additional to the command of God, then you're not breaking a covenant with because that's not the covenant God's looking your graduating attending Jesus to save. If you believe in him that it's done. It's finished.

Ashley, I asked one of the guys are church register dear brother Blake and I in preparation for this I just I asked him about that question imposed on them a initial email and how his good preaching the gospel effective days of mourning were previously Mormon and a celebrity said he called it a little bit of light to the day Blake texted to me said with with Mormonism. It's always going to be I obey.

Therefore, unexpected and not concept will always force you to be at the center, always patient. Always trying to be better, be better when he hears the gospel and receives Christ, he should now say I'm accepted. Therefore I obey with a new hard knowing that if you press finish work believing he's God's only begotten son and say it again sacred their freedom fan did the condemnation of the law, you can actually be free to share your cement with people to share earlier failed because you are free from the condemnation of that sin deserves. You have to worry about the bishop or anybody else coming down any for cheap done. In a biblical church. You should be able to share the worst things a batching life and be accepted because you accepted already in Christ. That's beautiful about the I'm thinking back to the time when I was deconstructing my faith in the LDS church, and I was trying to make my new beliefs. After I fell like I was saved at some point I trusted in Jesus to save me as trying to fit that into my Mormon religion in China Miguel work like I was I was reading James White's the forgotten Trinity on the bus ride to church enough like the Trinity is something LDS do not accept their very anti-Trinitarian. I'll try to be like a Trinitarian Mormon and like one of the last things I really Kept me from leaving the church that like is a single threaded is holding onto was I believe in the study of priesthood ordinances and like you need baptism by this priesthood to be considered righteous to get to heaven and a member reading. Also James White's the God who justifies.

And thinking about my head sermons that I'd heard basically iterating what you said and when it finally clicked like, you know, this idea that Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness through belief that perfect righteousness of Jesus is credited to us. I realized I don't have to keep the law. I don't need these ordinances. I don't need everything at the LDS church claims to offer me to be right with God are to be accepted by God exactly what you've been saying and so I just want to confirm a Blake is said and and what you both of said and I really prefer your thoughts and your time Michael or polity of anything else done so. I think Brandon and Darren for coming on really appreciate this conversation it's been good for me and the guy I hope and pray that it will be good for our listeners as well. If you LDS out there and listening. Just know that the Jesus is all you need and and grace sufficient yet really enjoyed listening to you guys anything have a lot to interject because I was just enthralled the entire time. So money is called the width of the 1689 London confession rate because I just want to know what the name of my new beliefs. For AFR farm Baptists all work on unit RA Roberts and Emery. So is that sometimes we we recommend resources in all books for people to study if they want to know more irony mentioned Pascal the nose book if you want from before baptism are not sorry Presbyterian perspective. I would recommend that book by Obama, Robertson is also there is also one by Michael Horton has a slightly different view. He's also Presbyterian and his is called introduction to covenant theology, I believe RC Sproul has a book also the God of promises or something.

Something like that from reformed Baptist perspective.

Definitely Pascal the nose book. This is also interesting Greg Nichols book just covenant theology is a reformed Baptist, but he has a slightly different view of reform at this covenant theology. Also, the fatal flaw that was a really great book. He also has slightly different views of 16 and federal federalism doesn't agree entirely with what he said specifically that like Abraham a covenant a lot of that we would agree with so 69 Feller federalism.com I think it is has a lot of great videos and resources, there if you want to know more than orbits physically but that fee of covenant theology so if you have any other resources you recommend or are you have anything else you recommend help you yeah I mystery of Christ. This annual rent rent him is a great introductory level. It covers the whole span of covenant theology and not have to be a academic or scholarly understanding. Here are two really well. Our brucellosis allergy mentioned today regarding right agreement.board their desire.org.com Norma Brooks Brandon Adams some tons of good stuff on there's another one by all.

His name will come to me after it give the title is called the whole Christ, Sinclair Ferguson, that's a really really good resource for this.

It it it's not an introduction. I will say that, but it's it's a good it's a good book to to read amazing books also get a mention to Dave. There's been a lot of great books and the passing of the starting to be reprinted. So covenant theology from Adam to Christ.

Nehemiah colony on Ellen is a great one.

There's also if you want to get super nerdy Avenue and finishes when it this is like this is based I think on salmon hands dissertation.

I think presented the substance. The federal theology of the English particular Baptists. I started reading and I was like okay this is gonna take Miller more time to digest this thing.

It's a little bit more scholarly but it's great like is that I love covenant theology because you just don't understand Scripture as a latter-day St. like that you can see like is also dispensational view were God try something they fail.try something they fail, but when you understand covenant theology.

It's like it's like a tapestry of just threads woven everywhere.

You're like oh okay. Like there was a purpose.

All this got out of reasonable plan for everything is beautiful. It just makes me love the Bible more in its and it's my guess that is why am I reformat this because of covenant theology. It's like it just it just make some sense, since so this is wrapping up. This is your time to plug anything you'd like your church meeting times of their less listeners in Utah near Syracuse would like to attend websites sermons about what would you like to share with our listeners. We wall if you're not currently part of the church you want to resent once you accuse Utah we moved to the city's dance Academy at 10:30 AM every Sunday and I were not flashy, but you get the word of the lid song were Braidwood kludge city block. We also, upon the summons are online on both on the website, covenant, grace, Utah.board, or you can get him on iTunes bona fide Google its candidate grace church student menu configuration something like that. But he said senators Utah something like that were just down buns in my mind that should come up and and now if you got any questions. Obviously having these guys to grade.

Resources and energy local you this morning for a moment in time Angel out to will note some of us but us up the garden contact information on the website thing I want to point out to you that I really love that while going 11 thing I really loved as the tenure services is a you and the Lord's supper every week. I heard that I was just like us.

Thing is that we should do it because as reform Baptists in our confession Lord supper isn't just something remember it's a means of grace and I think you said Danny said you know if Lord suffers a means of grace by Woody restricted to us once 1/4 or once a year and all I wanted every week and out and I was like Hotmail right on board array with you there rather in a God. God gives grace through baptism and the Lord suffers. I wanted every week you know so yes it is one of the those who are maybe looking for more information if you're in our area, check out on Facebook or on Instagram, covenant, grace, Utah. If you're uncomfortable like just showing up for a service reach out send this instant message, ask questions. I know it can be, you know, maybe scary to Sam to go to this place and I won't be attending my ward that morning and what are people going to think you know don't don't worry about that right away if you have questions, please feel free reach out. We would love to engage with you. Meet with you wherever you want to or just you know behind the anonymity of social media that's totally fine. A lot of people you know start.

They are just reaching out asking questions. That's totally fine either. Either way you're your you're welcome to join us at 1030 but that might be something that's more of a step in your willing to take right now but if you do have questions, please feel free reach out excellent.

Again, Ben and Dan for joining the program. Although we have a plan for next week to plan for next week to have an accurate we will see you next week five mystery so you following following this episode agreement will probably slip is in the center of the following this will be our article of faith nine episode will timeout when a continuing revelation. So Matt if you want to do a quick counter on that but I just want to say quickly zero to Ben and Darren again, thank you for coming on is really appreciated this that this is been great. Thanks for having effectiveness inky fireflies are joining us for the subset of the out apprentice podcast. So next week we will be revealing our episode on continuing revelation.

So stay tuned. Thank you for tuning into this of the outer ring is not love to hear from you. Please visit the out of phase and feel free to send us a message than with comments or send a message of the pain appreciated the page aligned.

We also have an out of write is another can also send this on and subscribe to the other brightness podcast on Cas cast box cast cast the modified stitcher. Also you can check out our new YouTube channel. If you like it certainly right here is a great also connect with Michael just one lungs and sometimes Poland method will music for the other brightness podcast is graciously provided by the talented Breanna Flournoy and by Adams Road. Learn more about Adams Road.

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