Balancing Script TRUTH Spirit WORSHIP

Uh You're entering. Outer brightness How can you look upon this end there with such love? Grace overflows my cove. All of my soul and my heart have been revived in you. I'm saddest watch.

The seventh LDS Article of Faith states. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing. Interpretation of tongues, and so forth. When I was a Mormon, this statement of LDS beliefs held an inherent contradiction, a paradox, in my mind. On the one hand, LDS truth claims are based on the concept of continuing prophecy and revelation.

The LDS Church is led by 15 men who are set apart and sustained by the membership as prophets, seers, and revelators. Joseph Smith's career as a prophet began with a claimed vision of the Father and the Son, and throughout his time leading the movement, many more visions were claimed by him and his followers. Truly, It is claimed by Latter-day Saints that theirs is a religion aligned with the spiritual gifts enumerated in the New Testament. They see this as evidence of. The truth of their movement.

I grew up in a home where visions and personal revelation were not considered to be uncommon. The challenge that this posed to my mind in my teenage years and beyond was that some of the visions/slash revelations experienced by some of my family members led to heartache and sorrow for other family members. Latter-day Saints are taught that the Father holds authority to receive revelation on behalf of his family. What recourse do other members of that family have to test the spirits? As a Mormon, I would have said that just as it is the responsibility of Latter-day Saints to confirm the words of their leaders through prayer, so it is the responsibility of family members to confirm the words of their parent through prayer.

The challenge comes when a supposed revelation contradicts scripture or isn't even touched on in scripture. What is a person to do? Severe challenges to family structures and relationships arise when a Latter-day Saint receives what they believe is personal revelation that they should take additional wives. This is not uncommon, and it leads to pain, as others, this is not uncommon, and leads to pain as can other less stark examples. In theory, the LDS canon is the rule of faith, and the prophet and apostles are to provide clarification of portions of LDS scripture that are unclear.

At least that is what one listener wrote to us after listening to our episodes 44 and 46, in which we reviewed Matthew's article, The Mormon Chameleon. but that downplays their role as seers and revelators. New revelation and new scripture has been very minimal since the days of Joseph Smith, despite claims that continuing revelation and an open canon are strengths of the LDS movement. We talked about healing in our episodes 51 to 53 about priesthood. The fact that the seventh LDS article of faith includes healing.

As a gift of the Spirit alongside others, leads one to wonder. If the LDS priesthood bestows the right to give healing blessings, Does that mean that every LDS male holding the Melchizedek priesthood has been given the gift of healing? What about the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues? Speaking in tongues? or glossolalia.

Was an important part of early Latter-day Saint practice. Mormon prophet Brigham Young stated, or I'm sorry, Brigham Young regarded speaking in tongues as a spiritually electrifying experience and an important part of his conversion. The practice continued throughout the 19th century, but was not a part of Mormon practice at all during my lifetime. Early Mormons wrote Of great spiritual outpourings taking place during the dedication of the Kirtland Temple in March of 1836. Speaking in tongues was said to be part of this great outpouring of the Spirit.

When I was growing up in the LDS Church, these manifestations of the Spirit were spoken of any time a lesson plan included discussion of the dedication of the Kirtland Temple. We heard them often. They were evidence that God was at work in the Latter-day Saint movement. But precarious teenagers in my class would often ask the natural question: why does no one speak in tongues today? The answer given was usually an allusion to the idea that missionaries who learn foreign languages certainly enjoy the gift of tongues.

But that is neither glossolalia. miraculously speaking in a language unknown to anyone. nor is a xenoglossia. Miraculously speaking in a language unknown to oneself, but known to one's hearers.

So, where then is the paradox that existed in my mind with regard to the seventh article of faith? Mormons claim that their continuationist belief in the gifts of the Spirit is proof that Mormonism is true, over against Christians, many of whom are cessationists. That is, they believe that the miraculous or sign gifts of the Spirit have ceased, that they were meant to be powerful signs in the apostolic era of the church as it was growing. But are not needed today.

So the paradox is this. Despite mourning claims that all of the gifts continue, None of the gifts are present in the modern LDS church in any meaningful way, and when pressed, Mormons often give arguments akin to their Christian cessationist counterparts. the gifts of the Spirit. That's what we're talking about today. As Latter-day Saints, we were constantly told that we needed to study the scriptures, which Latter-day Saints believe includes the Book of Mormon.

Doctrine and Covenants, the Bible, and Pearl Great Price. and the words of modern prophets, but that we must do so by the guidance of the Holy Ghost. We read Jesus's promise that, quote, by the power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth of all things, close quote, from Moroni 10, verse 5. Everything that the LDS Church taught, believed, and practiced was to be done by the Spirit. For many of us who have come to a truth of the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and of his gospel based on the Bible and not on the teachings of the Aldeanus Church.

We are left wondering. How could we have been so deceived? Were we not being led by the Spirit? And how are we led by the Spirit after we are saved? Due to the LDS Church equating feelings, emotions, thoughts, promptings, et cetera.

As being communications from the spirit. and realizing that many of these were not in line with what Scripture taught, we may have a reaction to go against anything spiritual. that all we are to believe is what is printed in the Bible, that the Spirit isn't working on our minds and hearts, etcetera. Instead of trying to rely on the Spirit, we could instead focus on our own mental capacities, our own learning and abilities, and forget that we still need God in our lives as born-again Christians.

So how do we keep this balance? How do we live by the Spirit without being led into error? And how do we learn truth while still relying on the Spirit of God? In speaking to the Samaritan woman at the well, Jesus knew that the woman had had five husbands. and that the man she was with at that time Uh was not her husband.

Shocked at his knowledge of such things that only she and God could have known, she proclaims. Sir, I perceive that you are our prophet. She then continued by asking about the proper worship of God. Samaritans at that time were a group of people that had broken off from the Israelite religion and began to incorporate other cultures, religions, and ideas into the Israelite religion. They even had their own version of the Torah.

While most of the Samaritan Torah agrees with the Jewish Torah, There were some modifications to it. One major one was that an altar was to be built at Mount Gerizim. It is this mountain to which the Samaritan woman referred when speaking with Jesus. But the Israelites believed that God should be worshipped in Jerusalem, where the temple built to give offerings and worship Yahweh was located. The Samaritan woman admitted this to Jesus by saying, Quote, Our fathers worshipped on this mountain.

Which s which is Mountain Charism? but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship. In response, Jesus told her that there would be a time where worship of God would not be centralized or limited to a specific geographic area. but would be done anywhere and everywhere in the world. They will not need to visit a physical temple located in a single city to worship God.

The Holy Spirit will dwell in the hearts of those who believe in Him. they will become the temple of God in whom God Himself dwells. Jesus said to her, Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know. We worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

But the hour is coming, and the and is now here when the true worshipers will worship the Father. in spirit and truth. For the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. The topic of our episode today is just that.

balancing our worship of God in spirit and in truth. We hope to address the questions mentioned before and more. May our discussion give encouragement to those who find themselves struggling. May we fellowship in the communion of the Holy Spirit. May it redirect our thoughts toward the Lord Jesus, and may it give praise and glory to God.

We are Matthew the nuclear Calvinist, Michael the exformer apologist, and Paul Bunyan. Let's get into it.

So let's start with the questions. Does anybody else have any comments? Remember that. First question. Start off with you, Paul.

Just as you muted yourself. When you were a Latter-day Saint, how did you compare gaining truth from study to gaining truth from the Spirit? Where did one stop and the other end? Or do they necessarily go together at all times?

So maybe we should. you know, break that down to each individual question. How did you compare gaining truth from study to gaining truth from the spirit? That's a great question. I've been thinking a lot about this because when I was LDS, it seemed like I received a lot of messaging.

About the limited nature of Man, right, in terms of knowledge and ability to understand. Truth and the mysteries of God. And so, you know, you had. Scriptures that were quoted quite often, like 2 Nephi 4:34, which is a It comes from uh From Isaiah, I believe. But cursed be the man that trusteth in man, or cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm.

Yea, cursed is. He that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm.

So that was often quoted and used in a way that Implied that you shouldn't trust in your own abilities or even in frat or in. Mortal man to teach you truth, right? You had to rely on Uh, the spirit of God to understand. And so That messaging, I think, led me to be wary. Of study.

Um And You know, Kind of put more emphasis on trying to understand truth through the through the spirit, but that itself. led to some dangerous places, I think, because Uh it In some ways, it leads you to. I'm almost Discount even scripture. I remember, and I'll just give a quick example.

So, when I was on my mission, There's a passage in Let's see. It's in Second DeFi as well. I've got the tab open. Hang on just a second.

So. There's a passage in Second Nephi chapter twenty nine, verse eleven. And it says, For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north and in the south. And in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them. For out of the books which shall be written, I will judge the world.

Every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

Now, in context within the Book of Mormon, this passage is kind of suggesting that. God has given scripture to peoples throughout the world, not just to the Jews, but to the Nephites in the Book of Mormon, and also to many, many other peoples. But when I was on my mission, there was a Missionary, who, while we were in the MTC together, we had become pretty close friends. And Uh He was serving in a different area than I was at the time. and the missionaries in the area where he was serving Had gotten into some trouble.

Um Uh Fraternized with some of the local. Uh Church member ladies. And I don't know the extent of it. I know it was a party of sorts. Um And I think there was some swimming in a pool involved.

And it was kind of the gossip throughout the mission that this had gone on, right? And I knew this missionary probably wasn't. Or I hoped this missionary that I was friends with probably wasn't uh involved in Know, maybe just went along with some of the others who might have been troublemakers. But he called me and he was, you know, he was pretty upset about. Uh his reputation and and You know, how that how things were playing out in terms of the word of the word getting out among all the missionaries in the country.

Um I remember Telling him that night that, like, oh, well, you know, like, I know you're a good guy, you know, I'll write about it in my journal and out of that book, you'll be judged, right? Kind of like making my own meaning for this passage out of 2 Nephi. That, you know, oh, that everybody will be judged out of journals that people write. And, you know, just that kind of approach to. Maybe trying to I guess trying to follow the spirit and follow your own promptings.

Rather than looking at what the scripture actually means, can be dangerous.

So, but it's kind of an approach to scripture that I think Latter-day Saints are. are given in the messaging that they receive. And so In terms of, you know, that I guess that's kind of how I would answer that question: is that I was afraid of study that would have been. that would have kept me from making such mistakes. Is what I would say.

So would you say that You were cautious when you approached Study of scriptures or words of the prophets or whatever, or did it mean that you were hesitant to study at all? in the sense of maybe finding knowledge that you shouldn't have or They'd be abusing it. I think, yeah, maybe neither of those, more like. uh unwilling to trust study. You know what I mean?

I loved to study. I studied the scriptures. I studied commentaries on the scriptures by Latter-day Saints scholars. And so I loved the The rigor of study, but um I was. Hesitant to trust it.

Because it felt like I was giving into the messaging of, you know, you're trusting in the arm of flesh. too much rather than relying on the spirit. Mm.

Okay, interesting.

So you relied more on promptings or answers to prayer, would you say then? Yeah.

Okay.

Okay, how about you, Michael? I was the exact opposite as Paul. I probably would have judged Paul severely as he did. And rightly so, and rightly so. My take is I just would see A lot of Latter-day Saints in my day that just had these wild.

Crazy ideas that were so out there. And I'm like, where did you get that? You know, and it would just be conjecture or some personal revelation that they had. And especially being with some of the missionaries. Out in the mission field, where they'd say, Oh, like.

We were, you know, the intelligences that weren't advanced enough became, you know, animals like dogs and cats and. The more advanced intelligences became human, and I'm like, where is that coming from? And even things like Like Heavenly Mother. you know the people would talk about i'm like okay i get that that logically Could make sense. But for me, I wanted to be able to find it.

In the scriptures, or else I couldn't believe it.

So I was the opposite of Paul. I was really. Uh hesitant about accepting anything that you couldn't find. In scripture, at least hinted at. I wanted to at least find a whiff of it in the scriptures before I was willing, because I thought that.

It was too easy to get blown away by the winds of You know, you're kind of your own feelings, or you can misinterpret. A revelation. And you needed something to kind of anchor you down. And for me, that was. the scriptures And And after my mission, I came across a quote from, I believe it was Harold B.

Lee. One of the prophets, where he said, you know, if somebody says something, And And it is not in the standard works, then we can assume that it is. man's opinion. And if it contradicts what is in the standard works, then it is not true. And so I was like, okay, well, there you go.

A prophet just said that it has to be in the standard works, or else it's not true. And so I adopted a prima scriptura view while I was LDS because that way. I wasn't taking sola scriptura. You know, I was still. Putting a place for the profits.

And for the spirit to teach me, but the scripture was for first and foremost. In my mind.

So those things still mattered. As long as it It wasn't contradicting the scripture, and it was flowing with scripture. Then I would accept it. But then there were times too. where I kind of was more like Trying to have it.

Uh It would just depend on the situation. And I'm going to tell a missionary story to Because that's where most of my stories come from, is beyond my mission. I remember I was sitting in. In Sunday school, and we had to go to gospel principals for two years. And I'm like, look, we're teaching this stuff every day.

So I'm sitting through like my seventh time going through the The lesson about serving your fellow man. And I'm just sitting there bored out of my mind. I'm like, I could probably recite this lesson. And so I was just kind of like praying to God: just teach me something. Today And then we were reading Mosiah 2:17, which says, If when you're in the service of your fellow beings, you are only in the service of your God.

And my eyes just honed in. Uh on that. And And then I was looking at Matthew. I guess where it talks about them being, I think it's Matthew 25, where Uh it's talking about Like judgment day, like those who are going to be found on Christ's right hand, and those who are going to be on his left. And he says, If you did it unto one of the least of these, my brethren, you did it unto me.

And It's just the word unto just seemed to jump out at me. From the page, and I'm like, why is it written? You know, to me when Mosiah. You know, 217 says you've done it. You're only in my service when you're in the service of your fellow beings, but here in Matthew, it says you've done it to me.

And then I just had this sensation, like, and I attributed it to being the spirit, and it just, you know, over. Overflowed in my body, and I just went no. Like the whole top half of my body, I just slumped over. And had this spiritual impression that what that was saying. was basically You know, Christ died for our sins, but he also felt all of our pain and.

And all of that stuff in the Garden of Gethsemane is what I would have said as a Latter-day Saint. And so, you know, I just had this hypothetical situation came to my mind where it's like, okay, if there's somebody out in the cold starving. For five hours, Christ felt five hours worth of this pain. But if I bring him in in the second hour, And I feed him and I warm him by the fire. then I've alleviated.

Christ's suffering. And so I started to, even though. You know, that's something I would normally have been suspicious of. As a letter to see. I'm like, oh my gosh, this is such a powerful experience, though, that I went ahead and let that supersede.

Study. at that point.

So I would say that normally, yes, I stuck to studying what was written in scripture. To determine what I believe, but there were times where I would slip and let something else kind of determine my doctrine for me. Yeah, thank you both for your stories. Appreciate it. Really can say something like that Yeah.

Michael, do you think that Yeah. Do you think the Latter-day Saints, at least previous to now, because I think it's changing a little bit, but do you think they did receive? Messaging that Uh that you know, personal revelation is really, really important. I mean, I feel like it's being stated more now. Um Because for us I feel like it was more that the prophet, the prophet's revelation.

Is what was important. I never really felt. Like my revelation. Was that important? Unless it was like me praying over the Book of Mormon and getting that spiritual testimony that the Book of Mormon is true.

Obviously, we were all encouraged to have. That received by the Spirit. And the other thing that we were encouraged to pray about is: is this prophet, whoever it is at the time, is he really a prophet called by God? Is Joseph Smith really God's prophet? And those were the three.

You know, revelations that were acceptable for us to receive. as members of the church. And I think if you were in a a calling like a leadership calling and you're looking for counselors It was kind of expected that they would. Kind of receive through the spirit who their counselors should be. Bishops being being told who to who to call the callings.

And I honestly believe that if I had to go in and sit down with The bishop and have an interview that he would look at me and see like right through my soul and basically. Know everything that was going on in my life, and especially on my mission. There were a couple of times they brought an apostle in to talk to us. And I remember one time, I think it was Elder Ballard came. Any kind of scam of the room.

And he said, well, there's nobody here with any major sins. And I believed that 100%. I'm like, he can look at us and he can see how much red there is, how much crimson. All of us have. because he's an apostle.

Fine. You quoted Harold B. Lee. Uh, what I find interesting about that is you know, if you think about the couplet, right. As man is, God once was, as God is, now man may become.

Um I mean, that's something that's not found explicitly. In the scriptures, even in LDS. Canon. Right. And so it's, but it's something that came to Lorenzo Snow.

And he recorded it. And it's repeated and quoted. All the time in the LDS church to support their Their doctrine, their theology of God. Um, but it's it's certainly not something that would have. Would have worked with what Harold B.

Lee placed as the Approach that should be taken, right? If it's something that's not in the standard works, then we can be sure that it's not right. Yeah, and I would have taken that a little bit differently too. Because the way I interpreted that couplet was that he was talking about Jesus specifically. As man is, God once was.

Like, yeah, Jesus came and he was born, took a mortal body. I'm like, even Christians have to acknowledge that. And so that just left the deification part of it, which I believed we did become gods as a Mormon missionary. And it wasn't until later on when I was writing a biblical defense of Mormonism that my position changed because I started studying it a little bit more closely. All right, good.

Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there. Uh I don't think I can add I mean, I had some thoughts, but I think you guys did pretty well. Like, just shortly, what I did is I was kind of more towards Michael's end where I would kind of be very cautious about Seeking secret knowledge or something like that. You know what I mean? I kind of wanted to, I kind of viewed, actually, it's kind of interesting that I think about it because.

I kind of viewed the spirit of working in us more like the reformed view of illumination. Where it's not so much like The spirit is giving you some special brand new knowledge that no one's received. It's more like helping you to understand. The revelation given in scripture, you know, or given through the modern prophets.

So while I you know, uh well, my view has changed about, you know, the The state of the prophecy and revelation given through the LDS prophets. I still think that principle is true, the sense that the spirit does give us elimination for truth. And I think we'll go into that later. That's interesting. Yeah.

I don't know what it is about maybe it's the family I grew up in or the area that I grew up in, but um. There, you know, there was a lot of A lot of speculation about receiving the second comforter and, um, You know, all of that kind of stuff. And that was, you know, this was when I was. Was a kid.

So, I mean, it was way before Denver Snuffer and all of that, that whole movement, you know what I mean? But that kind of. Subculture, Mormon subculture was pretty prevalent in my family and in the area I grew up. You know, Matthew, I had a feeling that you were going to kind of take the same position as me. As a Latter-day Saint, just because we established in another episode that you and I were doctrinal Mormons and Paul was more of a social.

Mormon. But I definitely had people in my family. That. Yo. Kind of went more towards the spiritual side of things.

I had one member of my family who claimed that God was talking to him. In the middle of sacrament meeting, and he would hear God's voice, you know, just telling him. things all the time and I think I can definitely see the appeal to to that. as well because it's just like oh yeah like uh you know it kind of shows that personal Relationship and makes it seem like, yeah, God's still speaking to us today. I'm his child.

Why wouldn't he talk to me?

So yeah, I do see the appeal. to that with with Loudery Saints to kind of take that direction. Sure. And going back to the whole second comforter thing, I thought about that too. I thought about.

Because I remember to some effect that there were some quotes, possibly from LDS leaders, maybe Brigham Young, where they said that. you know, if your righteousness exceeds Such a level, or you achieve such a communion with God, then you will receive the second comforter kind of a thing. And so I always wondered, man, am I ever going to get that to that level? Like, I feel like I'm struggling just to understand the basics sometimes, you know? And so that was something that I kind of pondered on a lot.

Uh whether that would actually happen or if that's even possible. Then I later found out, you know, reading the dialogue, a journal of Mormon thought. Um that they equated like The second anointing with that kind of experience, you know, like once you receive the second anointing. Then you would I don't know, have some kind of experience with Jesus, supposedly. I'm not sure how they, I can't remember exactly how they described that, but yeah, it was more related to the ordinances.

And then I was like, oh.

So it's just about You know. I mean, not to be Pessimistic, but impressing someone enough. To convince them to let you have this ordinance, you know what I mean? Right. Yeah.

So anyways, yeah, it's a good discussion. Um so we we kind of uh Michael already kind of talked a little bit about um study um and prayer versus You know, studying the scriptures versus learning through the apostles and prophets, and it sounds like Michael. Like you said, that you focus mostly on scripture. Over and above. the the words of modern prophets.

Would you say that's true? Absolutely. you know i i believed um That the prophets can say something and be speaking as a man. And so, if they said something that went against my scripture study. Or what the scriptures seem to be saying, I'd be like, well, they're speaking as a man.

right now but If they said something that I believed already to be true. I was just like, well, that confirms it. You know, because they're so authoritative if they're supporting what I believe, but if they're not, then oh, they must just be. you know, having a lapse of that uh communication right now or You know, or they're speaking to people who need line upon line and precept upon precept, and they're not where I am right now. I don't know.

I mean, I didn't judge the prophets too harshly or anything. I kind of thought they were here more for. the keys of the priesthood than they are to Uh have perfect doctrine for the church all the time. Yeah, that's good.

So So is that something that changed over time? Or you know what I mean? Like your Your preference of scripture over the leaders, or is that kind of just always how it's been for you? I think it's dependent a little bit on who the leader is. Because different leaders come and go, and some of them you like a lot.

Like, I really liked President Hinckley. And then I wasn't as fond of Thomas S. Monson. Uh he just Wasn't. Uh, he just didn't connect to me real well, and so I'm like, well.

And I started to really have a lower and lower view as I studied the scriptures more and got more of an understanding. kind of had a system of theology that I began to accept. I was less impressed by the By the profits. And I became more. uneasy about how people just wanted to Listen to anything that the prophet said.

And I think what would really annoy me is a general conference would happen. And then, you know, for the next five Sundays after that. all of the lessons would be centered on This talk or that talk, and I'm like, I'm not really.

so interested in in these These talks because of who is giving the talk. I'm much more of a let's talk about a a topic, like a doctrinal topic. And we can reference this talk. But I don't want to sit here and just read this whole talk. that I already listened to in general conference.

So I thought that people just gave way too much. Like fanfare? to the prophets and the apostles. And uh I mean, I remember when I was kind of on my way out of the church. I don't know if I've mentioned it on this podcast or not, but.

I'd start having these dreams, kind of these nightmares. And one of them, I was up giving a presentation to a ward. And I did a question and answer session, and somebody asked me. If the prophet superseded scripture. You know, if he was more authoritative than scripture, and I said, No, he is not.

We have to use the scriptures to determine whether what the prophet is saying is true. And in this dream, everybody in the ward stood up one after another. They pointed their fingers at me and they started calling me a heretic. And I was forced to leave the building.

So I think I had this. The subconscious feeling. That uh You know, maybe I was an apostate because I wasn't so on board with. the prophets and the apostles like I should be. Oh, that's intense.

That'd be an intense stream to go through. Oh, it was. Yeah, I'm not sure if I have any follow-up questions to that. Do you have any, Paul? I just was going to say, I would have been one of the people pointing at Michael in the dream.

Um like I you know, you mentioned uh Kind of using the test, the scriptures as a test for the prophets, what they speak. And You know Oh shit. Trying to determine when the prophets and apostles were speaking as men and when they were speaking as. as profits And those kind of thoughts never really came to me until I started to question. When I first came home from my mission, excuse me.

I was um I was buying up the collected writings of all of. Each of the the LDS profits because The way I viewed that was that, yeah, they were. They were clarifying the scriptures in what they said in conference, in what they wrote. And so I, you know, I wanted to read that because. you know the My understanding was that Having modern prophets and apostles was a major benefit for the Latter-day Saint truth claim.

Right. And so Satan. They could That the church theoretically could add more scripture from what they said. I mean, if you look at like Joseph F. Smith's dream that was added in 1978.

You know, he had that dream, I think it was in 1918 or something like that. And it wasn't added until added to the canon until 1978. And so I kind of viewed their writings as: you know, there may be scriptural truths in here that I need to mine out of these books. And yeah, I had kind of that approach. To their writings.

So I definitely had them taking priority over the scriptures to clarify.

So uh Follow-up question for you, Paul. Yeah.

I don't know if you've ever heard the anecdote about Brigham Young. By the way, before I get into this, I'm glad that you and I are on the same page these days.

Sounds like we wouldn't have necessarily gotten along back in the day. Who says we get along now? Don't make me come over there, Paul. There's a branch mask on. There's this anecdote of Brigham Young holding up the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

And saying that I love these books, they're so valuable. But if I had to choose between these or a living oracle of God, the living oracle is more important. Yeah.

So would you say that you were a fan of that line of thinking then oh absolutely yeah Absolutely.

So it sounds like you got more into really deep diving and studying when you were questioning.

Sounds like Paul. Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. Hmm. That is kind of interesting, isn't it? Like when you when you're in LDS and you're kind of in In the organization, you're in the sheepfold, you feel like you know a lot, you feel like you. understand a lot about the history and the doctrine.

And it's when you start questioning, when you really start like plowing through, you know, getting real deep, and you're like, I didn't have any idea what I believed or what our church taught. Yep, exactly.

So I get I'm always intrigued by My Latter-day Saints that really do just. Throw all of their eggs into the spirit bath. basket. You know, like, how do they? I always wonder, how do they start questioning?

Because I feel like. There is no anchor for them. There's no. you know spot where you can You can strike, and they're going to care about it because. They're just not even.

You know, I mean, they're not even on this planet in a sense.

So. I guess what was it? If you can just give a brief answer, Paul, like. What was the thing that allowed you to come down off of that and kind of come back down to earth and start? Thinking logically and questioning in the first place, because I think that's something that a lot of people are probably frustrated with talking to Latter-day Saints like that.

Yeah.

So one one, it was uh Lack of evidence for the Book of Mormon. It it did always kind of bother me that Uh there wasn't You know that we didn't have the brat or the golden plates. You couldn't go and look at them and Scholars couldn't translate them. You just had to take Joseph Smith's word for it. Um But I but I believed, you know what I mean?

I was willing to set that aside and say, okay, that, you know, God did that. He took the plates back. And so we have to believe. But if you're going to say, you know, what was kind of that one chink in the armor that. Uh made me start questioning it.

Because I was so heavily invested in The leaders of the church being Um, called of God and inspired. Um, It was seeing that they could be wrong. I talked about, I think, in our very first episode, my experience with Charlotte, the African-American security guard at the building where I worked. and trying to share the Book of Mormon with her and Just getting to know her and talking to her on a daily basis, she was a really Uh sweet. person and and I really enjoyed Chatting with her.

Every day, and seeing how hurt she was when her pastor. Pointed out for her that the LDS church had withheld its priesthood from. African Americans for so long and digging into that and realizing. You know, kind of seeing some of the racist statements by Brigham Young. Uh really kind of That's what challenged me the most because it was like, oh, these.

These these leaders who are supposed to be inspired, they're they can be wrong and they can, you know, how does that How is that? They're not any different than Um any more any other religious leader then? That's interesting. So, I think initially I had more issue with them being wrong about doctrinal things. And you probably had more issues with them being wrong about social Yeah, that that's really interesting.

Yeah, and that's probably because I was a social Mormon in many ways. Yeah, I would say so. I think that makes perfect sense. I just want to mention that I agree with you, Paul, when you were kind of saying how. There was a point where well in particular I really studied out Uh I've mentioned it before, Bruce ArmaConke, because I just feel like he was such a logical You know, like the guy, he wasn't really fluffy.

You know, as a Latter-day Saint, I didn't like it when people would get super emotional, and they'd be like, You know, like the dews of Of March and all this stuff. Like Tom, like President Monson in particular, liked to use flowery language and he quoted poets and stuff. And I'm like, let's just get something concrete, you know, like something hard. And, like, Bruce Army Conkie was like, no nonsense, like, no playing around. You'd just be like, here's the facts.

Take it or leave it, kind of a thing. And I like that. It was kind of like a scientific approach almost to Mormonism, you know? He's like, this is what has been said? This is what we believe.

That's it.

So Matthew, I'm a I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and guess, but uh I'm assuming you didn't love fast and testimony meeting It depended. I actually really liked Fast and Testimony, meaning in the. Singles word, a lot more. Because, you know, in a normal ward it was like, you know, rolling the dice. You get whatever you get.

You get the travel logs. You'd get the the the lady crying about her cousin that drank coffee once or something. But in the singles word, it seemed like they were all. And I'm not sure if it was like a. I don't know.

I don't know if it was trying to To you know, show everybody how spiritual they were or if that's really I never got that sense. I felt like they were genuine, you know, in their testimonies. But they were always focused, you know, especially since most of them were returned missionaries.

So, you know, they'd know not to go up and add a lot of fluff.

So, I really enjoyed those. Those were very focused. But, yeah, in a typical ward, yeah, sometimes it was. It's pretty rough. Yeah, in the typical ward I would zone out.

in fast and testimony meeting. I just I wasn't really interested in in people's Life stories, you know. About how they found their lost dog, and because of that, they know the church is true, or you know, whatever they were going to talk about up there, but. And there just wasn't any doctrine.

So I just wasn't as interested in it. But I think you're right. In the singles board, I did like it better. And it might have just been because they were my peers. uh people that I knew better one-on-one.

I don't know. But uh that's that's an interesting point. But but also, yeah, but too, I think it was because there was a shared experience. You know, we were all kind of going through the same problems, dating, school. Figuring out where your life is going after the mission.

So, we were all trying to figure out the same thing.

So, I felt like there was a sense of community there and kind of a sense of kinship.

So I think that, along with being more focused in the testimony, I think was what I enjoyed better. But yeah, that is a good question because yeah.

Some of those were And the family wards are pretty rough.

So you got the crying babies. It's another area where I feel like I miss out on a critical Mormon experience because I never. I never went to a singles ward. I came home from my mission and attended our family ward. For five or six months, while Angela and I got to know each other online.

Then I moved here and attended. You know, family ward with her.

So never did, never did have that singles ward experience. Have you at least seen the movie Singles Ward? Because that pretty much tells you everything you need to see. I've seen the RM, I have not seen the Singles Ward. Yeah.

I think we met in the pre-existence. Yeah, I was a little bit worried that that's what the singles order is going to be like, like super corny, and everybody's awkward, and like. You know. Like proposing at church, at church gatherings, you know, having met the person just 10 minutes before. Didn't you know that that's what the Fast and Testimony meetings in Singles Ward are?

They're all veiled proposals disguised as testimonies. Yeah.

All right. Uh so we kind of already tackled uh question two, I think.

So And Paul, you kind of wrote you kind of spoke about in the beginning in the first question. Um why the dangers of going to one extreme or the other. in spiritual worship versus balancing truth and spiritual worship. Do you want to expand on what you've already said? Do you have anything else you'd want to add to that?

I don't I don't think so. Um Again, I just think it's the danger of. Uh Not being able to tell the difference between. your own desires and what you want and what truth is. Um You know, you end up seeing things and In scripture, that you think is a is a new or or hidden meaning that Okay.

Isn't really there. And it can You know, in the In smaller ways, it can affect your life, you know, and Put you on the wrong The wrong path that can make it so you don't see the true meaning of scripture. don't understand truly what God has done. Um But it can, you know, in in more damaging ways it can affect others because you know, people who, who kind of live in that. Kind of heavily in that spiritual world.

I remember when I was, when I was a, A kid, I had my mom had a cousin. And she had never Her cousin had never married. And she would often of get Connected with some of the Fundamentalist Groups or fringe groups within LDS subculture who were living polygamy. And she never really, she never really got. Into polygamy, as far as I know.

Um but she would She would get to know people who were. Kind of swimming in those waters, and she would listen to their cassette tapes that they would pass around. And, you know, then she would get really confused, and she would come. And talk to my mom and my dad, and my dad would. Yeah.

Uh try to Set her straight in terms of following the brethren rather than these people who were going off on their own. But that was like a constant thing for her. But she was one of those people who was just a spiritual Mormon, just. whatever you know felt good or tasted good to her, she was. Willing to Yeah.

eat it up. And several times it it almost led her into You know, getting involved with groups that could be quite dangerous and harmful to women. And so, you know. Yeah, there's there's definitely ways that it can it can be dangerous. As you're saying that, it kind of really.

When we think about it. The early saints had the same problem. you know they're they're in the milieu of like the you know, the the Roman Empire. You know, Greece had all these, you know, philosophers and they had lots very much a scholarly kind of learning that was in that region. And there was a great temptation to add.

Worldly philosophies and scholarship to the scriptures. And so, I mean, that's kind of the. That's the the fertile ground from which Gnosticism came. And they were trying to appeal to everybody, you know, like take a little bit of this here and there. Oh, you believe in this?

Well, let's just add this to it. You know, we can merge all this together, this syncretistic religion. And it's it's a tempting thing, I think, for anybody, you know? We all have our hobbies. We all have things that we like.

Um you know, and sometimes there's that temptation to take out things we like and integrate into what we already have. And that can be dangerous, or it can be malign, or it can be dangerous. And What's it in your mind? Scripture says the heart is wicked. And And who can know it?

You know, I like that second part because it's like, wow. it not only is the heart wicked, but who even can understand that? Right. And we don't. Without true enlightenment from the Holy Spirit, we don't understand that.

And so, if we're focused on our emotions and what makes us feel good and what appeals to Um You know, our sensual nature, that kind of thing, you can really get into trouble. when you're when you're trying to seek truth and so It really is important to understand that We can't trust ourselves. You know, and that's not to say you can't trust yourself to study, like I was saying earlier. Um But you can't trust You can't solely put your trust in your emotions and expect that you're going to to find truth you'll you'll be led into error By your heart. Yeah, amen to that.

I think if you're a comment, Paul, what about you, Michael? Do you have anything? Regarding um why we should keep a balance of spiritual truth or spiritual worship and Truth. Not going to one extreme or the other. Yeah, I think you can see it just from this.

this conversation that the three of us have had. that when you do take an extreme, And I think there's going to be sort of an emphasis no matter what, but when you take that extreme. Um I think it's polarizing. Uh you you start to distrust people who are going to the other extreme. As being you know, crazy.

And they're not as special or as righteous or as smart as you are. And so I think it just opens up. room for there to be pride. And I think having that balance just kind of keeps you grounded. I mean, it's great to.

I mean, I think it's great to sit there and study the scriptures. But Then I can just be. I don't know, a prick to other people who don't know as much as I do and look down on them. But if I have the spirit, Then I'm going to be more likely to want to get together with other people and study with them. And, you know, iron sharpens iron.

So. We have a lot. Two. to grow from each other by and I'm missing that opportunity if I don't have the spirit. Um If I don't have the spirit, I'm not going to.

I guess, see what God wants me to see in the scriptures or be convicted of my sins when I'm reading the scriptures. It just It's just not as useful. Yeah, thank you. Um I don't have anything else. I mean to to comment about Michael's comment, Deopol?

Thank you. Uh I was gonna mention too um Just in general, like whether whether L D S or, you know, in our views now as Christians, I I've thought a lot about this this balancing spiritual worship and scriptural truth. And it's kind of a topic that I brought up with Paul just because I thought it was an an interesting and important one. Because As a lot of these scene. you know, there were those who It seemed like they were really hardcore and they knew a lot of.

passages, you know, they knew all the scripture mastery or whatever it's called doctrinal mastery nowadays. They knew quotes left and right. You know, but It was they didn't seem like very loving or very approachable, you know? And at the same time, there were other people who were just very kind and very sweet, but like. You try to have an in-depth conversation with them and like you kind of struggle.

And that's and it wasn't Those aren't to the points of being dangerous, but those are Kind of interesting. Types, you know, there's subcultures, or you know, different types of personalities within the LDS Church. And I don't think as Christians, we all need to be. Uh, scripture masters, we don't all need to know the Bible left and right, we don't all need to. you know, be incredibly wise in terms of the spirit, but But I see, just in terms of groups within the Christian community, I see some that are very focused on.

The spirit, very focused on receiving tongues or, you know, having some kind of. Supernatural confirmation of their faith, something, you know what I mean? to demonstrate that they are truly Christians. And oh and Kind of like to the detriment or you know sacrificing scriptural accuracy, scriptural adherence. And then you kind of see the other the other side, and I see this very much in the reformed community.

is is very strict adherence to scripture. you know If you if you bring up something, you've got to have a book, chapter, and verse to prove it. And you know, they'll they'll pick apart every single argument using very intense logic and and trying to demonstrate that the other person's arguments are are weak. And I and I come catch myself in that. kind of mode too.

And it's not wrong, I think, to argue from the scriptures, but But we still have to remember that we're Christians first and foremost. We're meant to be like Christ, and we can't use the Bible as a bludgeon. to beat over other people over the heads with or to prove how smart we are. Or to you know, show how much more gifted we are with our intellect. It's it's we really need that balance to understand that we need to be humble.

We need to understand that What we learn from Scripture should be used to make us more like Christ. should push us to humility. should push us to worship. And our worship should be Not Disregarding scripture or disregarding truth, but should be filled with truth. They should be completely intertwined.

And that's why In my church we sing from the Trinity Hymnal and I just love I don't think I've ever sang a hymn in there that I disliked. There may have been ones I didn't know how to sing because I'm not very good at music, but in terms of the content, I loved it always because they're always very worshipful. They're also always very. doctrinal, you know, very doctrinally deep. Uh speaking of the Trinity.

Speaking of uh humble worship and Praising the Lord. And it's it's something that we should we should not Forget one. and focus on the other. We really need do need to have this kind of balance. And um So I wanted to go on to the next question about the Pharisees because They're an often maligned group, you know, amongst Christians and also Latter-day Saints.

You know, if you wanna if you wanna. Poison the well. With anything that's bad, just tie it to the Pharisees, right? It's kind of like, well, you know. Nazis, you know, they liked chicken.

So obviously, I mean, come on, you know. Chicken. They hated bacon, obviously. Yeah, exactly.

So, I mean You hate bacon? I mean you're basically a Pharisee, right? But yeah, so um so they oft criticize Pharisees. In actuality, They were the most conservative and orthodox in their beliefs, according to Jewish scriptures. amongst all of the other Jewish groups.

But we do have to recognize that it did fall short in several several areas. Jesus once said to them, Quote, the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you n have never heard, his form you have never seen. and you do not have his word abiding in you. for you do not believe the one whom he has sent.

You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life. And it is they that bear witness about me. Yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. That's John. Chapter 5, verses 37 through 40.

So examining this passage of scripture in John chapter 5. Uh what was the error of the Pharisees that Jesus was attempting to point out here? What do you guys think? Let's start with uh You, Michael. Yeah, I mean that's a great passage of scripture.

I feel like the way you enunciated it kind of uh was a spoiler. A little bit, but uh You know, it's one of those things I used to accuse evangelicals of as a Latter-day Saint apologist all the time. Oh, they are so into the Bible. That Their eyes aren't even on Christ. You know, they think that the Bible died for them on the cross.

You know, the Bible, this, the Bible, that. You know, the Bible doesn't save you. Um And so I think it kind of comes down to that same thing. It's ironic. Because they're reading the words of God, but Jesus says, You do not have my word abiding in you.

It's an ex, it's a totally Exterior process when they are reading God's word.

So they're reading it with their eyes. But it is not something that they are being conformed to. It is not a spiritual experience at all. It is a completely. Uh a mortal.

Experience. It's a logical experience. And so, because of that, they are not coming to Christ. They are using. These things to feed their own.

Their own arrogance. Instead of humbling themselves. and coming to Christ. I think that's what the issue is here. Yeah, and one thing I've thought about just now too is We don't really see Jesus here criticizing them for.

Misunderstanding scripture. Yeah.

Or twisting it. like we find elsewhere in the New Testament New Testament. We see him saying that His word doesn't abide in them. There was an interesting Uh What's it called? What do they call them in Mormonism?

Like object lesson. That's the word. They Mormons love their object lessons. He kind of talked to it, you know, like I had a seminary teacher that talked about like the scriptures are. It's the difference between You know, applying ointment to your skin.

and actually taking medicine, you know? It's like you can take a you can take a topical ointment to your skin. It'll stick on the surface and it'll dry. But really it's only going to affect your skin. It's not going to really affect any of your internal organs.

But if you're sick and you need an antibiotic and you take that antibiotic, that's going to affect your whole body.

So, it's something that you have to internalize, it's something you have to take into you, it's something you have to apply into you. And I think I would agree with that, especially in terms of this passage. It's not that Jesus was saying. You just don't understand the scriptures at all. It's just that they didn't really know.

How to apply it. they still were hard-hearted. They didn't have new hearts and regeneration. What do you think, Paul? Do you agree or do you have any thoughts on that?

Yeah, I agree. As Michael was speaking, I thought about. Hebrews 4:12, which says, For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. You know, one of the things that that Jesus criticized The Pharisees for often was the intent of their heart in the way that they approached him. And they were constantly coming to him, trying to trip him up.

Uh and in an honor and shame culture like Like the Jewish culture of the time was. Um It was kind of like a grudge match, so to speak, an intellectual grudge match when the Pharisees would approach Jesus and as he would. open the scriptures to them and and kind of lay bare their intentions before the crowds. it it would only drive them to more anger towards him and you'd You know, so you know, when you were when you were reading that, you know, uh You know, you refuse to come to me. that you may have life from John 5.

They weren't seeing in the scriptures what the scriptures were pointing to, who the scriptures were pointing to. And he was right there with them, and still they didn't see. And um Yeah, see it's the intentions of our heart and you know, the humility that you were talking about before. Matthew, if you're approaching scripture with the intent of constantly being able to have the right argument. Um Scripture is not getting into you.

The word of God is not getting into you. It's not. It's not dividing soul and spirit. It's not dividing joints and marrows and discerning. The thoughts and intentions of your heart, which is the intent of Of scripture, right, to bring us to that place where we.

we realize we're reliant Holy on God and wholly on his His uh Rescue and salvation offered in Jesus.

So Yeah. that's kind of my thoughts and i was going to look up something else um Is slipping my mind right now, so we can go on. Yeah, it reminds me of James White was talking about on one of his programs. He's a Christian apologist, and he's done over 170 debates, written 20 books. Done a whole bunch of stuff in apologetics and uh He admitted, he said in one of his programs that apologetics is not for someone.

So doesn't know what it means to be a Christian. You know, there are many intelligent people. They get into apologetics and they crash and burn. And I think we know of people that have done that on both sides of the fence. They get really hardcore into wanting to defend the faith.

They feel like it's what God wants them to do. And if they're not. They're not anchored. In Jesus, then it can become prideful. It can be a source of.

Self-fulfillment, you know, self-aggrandizement. Because you show yourself to be this kind of authority. You have this knowledge that others don't, and you can defeat other people's arguments, kind of like a chess game. You know, you study all the moves, study all the opening moves, you study all the counters, etc. etc.

So you know how to counter this, this, and that. But then your your brain's just filled with a whole bunch of counters and and you know Counters to counters and But then it's like you need to sit back and say, well, what is the whole reason for this? Am I glorifying God in what I'm doing right now? Am I bringing people to Jesus or am I just trying to sh you know shove people down the ground? And as Latter-day Saints, you know, as missionaries, you know, we didn't want a Bible bash for that reason.

And I think sometimes leaving Mormonism and going to Christianity you can kind of lose sight of that, you know? Like sometimes it's reactionary, I think. Where Well, this is how I felt when I was in that religion.

Now that I'm not in that religion. you know, I shouldn't feel that way or I shouldn't have those thoughts or those ideas. But really, you know, we can't toss everything aside that we learned as Mormons. We have to take the good and you know, throughout the bad. Yeah, you know, you kind of brought the story to my mind, Matthew, like just something that happened on my mission.

I did end up debating a lot of Uh, evangelicals on my mission, and it was always the same kind of thing, you know, them. Having these heated arguments with us and showing us these Bible verses. And we'd walk away from that, being like, man, if. Yeah.

Christianity is true, like. I'm still not going to join that religion if that's the kind of fruit that that produces in people. And then we ended up running into this one guy. I don't even remember his name, but one evening, my companion and I ran into this Christian. We went and sat with him outside.

And he just started answering all of our questions, but he had this just the spirit about him that was so. Dignified, and we could tell that he loved the Lord, and he loved us, and he. wanted us to be saved. And it just made all of his arguments So much more compelling. to us as as non-believers.

And then it was crazy because at the end of this, he's just a really smart guy. He was able to answer all of my. Everything that I threw at them. Yeah, I even I even try to throw my Best trick questions at them, and it didn't matter. But then at the end of it.

He says, you know what, I feel really impressed. To share this verse, and I don't know why, but I'm going to share it. And it was, it was the verse in the New Testament, where it says, I will have mercy and not sacrifice. And that was a verse that just kept replaying in my head over and over and over again as a missionary. I'm like, Why did he feel impressed to say that to us?

And now I understand because the like mormonism is all about Sacrifice. It is about, I've got to. You know, sacrifice all of my sins on the altar as an offering to God so that I can have grace. And so it really made an impact that this guy was balanced with his scripture study and with the spirit as well. Yeah, thank you, Michael.

Yeah, that's great. Yeah, I think we I think we should look at examples like that and you know, take that to heart and You know, I know I know there's definitely things in my life that I need to work on, especially when I take all the stress that I have with my school and. worries about getting a job and And then I go into the discussion groups and start talking to Latter-day Saints about doctrine, and I bring that stress with me. And it's not good. It's not good.

We definitely. Each remember the the reason why we witnessed a lot of day scenes. Um So let's see, next question.

So we've kind of talked a lot about Yeah. going to one extreme or the other. in spiritual worship and scriptural truth.

So now, as born-again Christians, how does the indwelling of the Holy Spirit affect our study of truths from Scripture, whether directly from the Bible, from books and commentaries, etc.? And how should our study affect our spiritual life?

So How does the spirit affect our study and how does our study affect our spiritual life? You want to go, Michael? Yeah, I don't have a whole lot of comments on this question. But I think I think the big thing is it affects The reason that you sit down and read scripture in the first place. Like I am we're reading through judges right now.

As a family, and it's something that would have appealed to me more, I think, as a Latter-day Saint because it's got cool stories. in it. And you know, I'm a big fan of history and And okay, what happened? And uh And I'm reading it now, and I've got different eyes. reading through this because You know, I'm kind of like, okay, you know, what is What's the symbolism?

What's the foreshadowing? How is this? you know, teaching us about Christ. you know, where is Christ in the Old Testament? Because I believe that it all points to Christ.

And today we were reading about Gideon and the Midianites, which is a really cool story. And uh And it talks about before Gideon came. You know, they were eating all of Israel's crops, and it got to the point where they were starving. Before they called out to the Lord for help. And I'm like, man, that is just like.

Usually, It wasn't until I was at the point where I was spiritually starving. Before I Cried to the Lord, and He heard that, and then rescued me.

So I think I'm just able to see a lot more of the hidden messages. In the scripture and And when I read it, I'm also looking for how I can use this. To witness to somebody, to glorify Christ. And so I'm more. Eager to find those things now than I was before.

I think I would just kind of read the scriptures to check it off of my checklist. To say that, you know, I did it, I'm one step on the wrong journey. to righteousness and celestial glory. And I'm going to find stuff to pummel people over the head with.

Sometimes, sadly, I'm still a sinner. And I find myself doing that every once in a while. And then I catch myself and I'm like, what is wrong with me? Mm-hmm. You know, like, oh yeah, I'm a sinner.

That's what's wrong with me. But uh but yeah, that definitely Definitely bleeds into Into our spiritual life as well. I really like that quote. Maybe you guys know who says it, but the Bible is the only book that reads you. I've heard it, but I don't know who said it.

Yeah, I mean I think that th that's probably the biggest difference. Between my Latter-day Saint view and my view now, because I believed. that the scriptures were essentially dead books. And that's why we had, you know, profits was to kind of put life, you know, because it's the. The one true and living church on the face of the earth, according to Doctrine and Covenants, Section 1.

And that's what makes the LDS church so great. But now, as a Christian, I look at the Bible and I'm like, this is. Living. You know, the word of God is a living. Bang.

And so Because it's living, it is able to change me. I'm having an interaction with something. That is living scripture because of the spirit. And so. There's no way that that can't bleed into into my spiritual life if I am reading the scriptures.

Yeah, amen. It reminds me again of. The passage that Paul quoted. from uh hebrews four for the word of god is living and active sharper than any two-edged sword Piercing to the division of soul and spirit, joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

So that's pretty much What you were talking about there, Michael. Thank you. How about you, Paul? Yeah, so when I was all the S, I would have I would have viewed the scriptures as kind of like a springboard. And I think I came by that view, honestly, as a springboard into spiritual experience.

It seemed to be the way that Joseph Smith went about using the scriptures. Um he would read something and it would lead him to Some kind of miraculous spiritual experience. And so I kind of viewed the scriptures in that way that. You know, if I read them, I would find some, you know, something in them would. Trigger some type of experience.

And I was always seeking out those experiences. As a Christian now, um I'm not looking for that. I'm more like Michael. I'm looking for, you know, how does. How does this witness of Jesus Christ?

How does this point to him? What is this saying about him? That is important for us to understand and know. I think You know, In terms of how the indwelling Holy Spirit affects my study, I I trust that as I study, whether it's the scriptures or To commentaries and then back to the scriptures, that the promise that the Spirit will lead us into all truth is real and alive in my life. And so I trust that that is happening.

And again, I'm not searching for. And you know, miraculous spiritual experiences to come from that. It's um, It's more like the more I study, the more I understand. Jesus, and the more I realize my utter reliance and need for him. And so Um Yeah, in that way I think the indwelling Holy Spirit Uh leads to truth.

Yeah, thank you guys. Really great comments. I would just kind of mention that I agree that We should keep the scope of Scripture in mind when we're reading it: that it's all Christocentric, it's all pointing to Christ.

Now, there was a series from RC Sprill, I think, where he said. that any particular passage of scripture only has one meaning. You know, when it says that Joseph and Mary went up to Bethlehem, it means Joseph and Mary went to Bethlehem. you know? It's it's not like allegorical or, you know, Poetic or something like that.

It's something that really happened. But from that there are many applications. Of any particular passage. You can apply that in many different ways.

So the point is to understand what was the context of the passage given, who was the author that wrote it. What's the you know what's the immediate context? What's the Context surrounding that context, and what's the global context, and it should all be pointing to Christ in some way. And so it's just trying to, for me, I spend a lot of time trying to understand what God wants me to know because. when we really have a high view of scripture and see it as God's words, as if he breathed them.

Whereas Latter-day Saints, I kind of saw it as like, well, it's a book where God inspires men. But through these fallible Kind of lenses, you know, they reinterpret kind of ideas that God gives them. And so maybe the way they put it down on the page isn't exactly quite right. you know maybe they've flubbed here or there But now I view scripture as God breathed.

So, you know, the words printed on the page in the original languages, that's what God said. And I think that that's the way that Jesus saw it too.

So we really need to understand what is God saying here? And to not misinterpret or to twist it. And we're going to because we're fallible, but to try as hard as we can to understand what is God trying to tell me here. And what does God want me to know? And that's kind of what I.

Focus on now rather than kind of saying. Like you were, I think you were talking about it, Paul, where instead of using scripture as a springboard, into the spirit talking to me to tell me what I need to do in my life. I'm really trying to focus on what God actually spoke here. Um And of course, we should apply that into our lives. We should let the word examine us as we've talked about and let it shape us and form us.

Yeah, but application is the last step in exegesis. And there's a reason for that. The reason for that is that As you were saying, Matthew, you have to understand first what was said. and what was intended. Uh to be understood.

By the audience, whether it was someone hearing Jesus speak, or whether it was someone, you know, a group of believers reading Paul's letters. It's really critical to understand those things first. What was said, what was the intent for the hearers? And then you can have a solid application. But yeah, the way I went about it before, it was about me.

It was, you know, what, how can I springboard into this being about me and and What's good for me and what I should do. That kind of thing. And that's not the way to go about. understanding and reading scripture. And I've heard too of even Christian Bible study groups where that's kind of what it is well.

Or they'll open a book, read a passage, and say, they'll go around in a circle and say, okay, what does this mean to you? Rather than kind of trying to dive in and say, okay, what is Paul or, you know, what is John trying to say here? And that can, you know, that could be unfortunate too, because then you have a circle of. 20 people all thinking that it's saying completely different things. And that's not good.

So yeah, thank you for that poll. You're listening to Outer Brightness, a podcast for post-Mormons who are drawn by God to walk with Jesus rather than turn away. Outer brightness, outer brightness, outer brightness, outer brightness. There's no weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth here, except when Michael's hanger that is, anger that is, anger that is. We were all born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, more commonly referred to as the Mormon faith.

All of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ based on biblical teachings. The name of our podcast, Outer Brightness, reflects John 1.9, which calls Jesus the true light which gives light to everyone. We have found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told it would be, and the light we have is not our own. It comes to us from without, thus, Outer Brightness. Our purpose is to share our journeys of faith and what God has done in drawing us to His Son.

We have conversations about all aspects of that transition, the fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between. We're glad you found us, and we hope you'll stick around. All right, so this is one of the most famous passages of scripture. For Latter-day Saints, the famous or infamous, however you want to call it, James chapter 1.

So, this was related to Joseph Smith's conversion story, where he claimed that he felt confused about all the different denominations and the debates that went on around him in the county where he lived as a young boy. And so, he read James chapter 1, verse 5, and that kind of incited him to go and pray. To God to know which church was true.

So I'll quote that verse and following: quote. If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord. He is a double minded man, unstable in all his ways.

And I think I think I pulled that from the English Standard Version.

So if any Latter day Saints are listening and they're confused why it sounds a little bit different. It's just in a more modern translation.

So, in examining this passage now, is this saying that we can close our Bibles, pray to God, and receive knowledge? And what do you think? Do you think there's a difference between knowledge and wisdom, or is it the same thing?

So, what do you think, Paul? I think there's definitely a difference. If you're wanting to understand what biblical wisdom is, you know, the wisdom of Solomon, what you find in Proverbs and whatnot, it's the application of God's word. And that comes through lots and lots of study, as we were talking about. Application is the last step of exegesis, the last step of your scripture study.

But that's what wisdom was: it's how to apply it to your life, to your daily life. Um And how to live the way that God would have you live.

So, you know, when you read passages like James 1:5, if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God. That's not saying close your Bibles and just get some new revelation. What it's saying is Uh get wisdom, get an understanding of how it applies. And that you know, that comes again after lots and lots of study. I like Proverbs 4:7.

I'll read it in the King James first because I like the way the King James is worded. Wisdom is the principal thing. Therefore, get wisdom, and with all thy getting, get understanding. I love that with all thy getting language. But yeah, in the ESV, it reads: the beginning of wisdom is this: get wisdom, and whatever you get, get insight.

So, yeah, having wisdom is definitely important. Understanding how we should live in God's kingdom is, as Proverbs says, the principal thing. But that comes through lots and lots of study and prayer. And so, yeah, I don't think it's a surprise that James says to ask of God. But again, it's not saying, you know, shut your Bibles and get some new revelation.

And uh yeah, that would that's what I would say about that. Yes, thank you. Yeah, and I don't have a whole lot to add to what Paul said. I mean, I don't know how you even follow that, to be honest. Shouldn't even try.

Mm-hmm. But I mean, it's kind of like, okay, if if that's what that scripture means, what a lot of Latter day Saints try to say it means, then why do we even have all of the other books of the Bible? I mean, God could have just released a much smaller Pamphlet, like a couplet, if you will, that just had these two verses in it. If you want to know something ask me and I get I get so frustrated. I'm gonna vent for a second.

I get so frustrated sometimes in these debate groups talking to Latter-day Saints because I'll ask them. A question, and they'll respond, well. Pray and ask God about it. And so I've just started kind of shooting back at them.

Well, why don't you pray and ask God about it and tell me what he said? You know, or. I'll just say, okay, well, you know, I did, and he said that, you know, the church is false or something like that. It's like, You want me. It's just, it really is, just becomes a way to get you off of their backs.

It's all it is. It's just a, you know, take it up with God. I don't want to debate this sort of thing. But yeah, I think it it really just undermines the entirety of the Bible. If you take those passages the way that Latter-day Saints want to take them, it's completely worthless at that point.

You don't need it if that's true. Yeah, by asking them to pray and tell you what they find out, though, Michael, you're shirking your responsibility. Put your shoulder to the wheel, young man. Maybe have a few Mr. Pibs before, you know, it'll give you a little boost of energy.

I could go for a Mr. Pib right about now. I wish I had one. Not me. Let's keep him at bay for a while yet.

As long as you don't go for Pib Extra, we don't want Mr. Pib Extra coming out. I didn't even know there was a regular Mr. Pib. All I've ever had is Pib Extra.

You could say that Mr. Pib is being. Extra today. Yeah, I agree with Paul and Michael. Yeah, you nailed it.

I don't think I have anything to add to that. Um, let's see.

So, yeah, so kind of continuing along with that, when we're studying scripture as Christians, do we need continuing revelation to understand it? And how does the Holy Spirit enlighten and teach us as Christians rather than what we saw or what we believed is? Latter-day Saints. What do you think, Michael? Let me ask for some clarification on this question real quick.

When you say continuing revelation, are you talking about revelation from a man, like a prophet? Or are you talking about personal revelation? Oh, that's that's interesting. I originally thought in my mind, I was thinking. Like, do we need God to Give us direct communication from him to be able to understand, excuse me, to be able to understand scripture.

But I guess you could take it that way, too, whether through someone else who's con receiving continuing revelation or direct continuing revelation. Yeah, so this is a tricky question here. I mean, the New Testament does say. When the Jews read the Old Testament, there's a veil over their eyes.

So I think that the Spirit does need to be present for you to really understand the scriptures. I mean, the truth is. that all three of us read the scriptures all the time as Latter-day Saints. And we didn't understand what they said. I mean, I blew right past.

verses that were so clearly they so clearly taught the gospel And I couldn't see what they said because it was like there's this veil over my eyes. I lacked the spirit. And so I couldn't understand the clear message of the Bible. And then I came to saving faith and I approached the Bible after that, and it felt like a whole new book. Of course, I did switch the translation up, but it wasn't just because of the different translation.

You know, you read it and you're like, how did I not? See this before. It is so. Obvious.

So I don't like using the word revelation because. Of my Mormon days and overusing it back then, but I would say that the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is essential for reading the Bible and understanding what it is saying.

Okay, Paul, what do you have to add to that? Yeah, I would agree with Michael here. I don't think we need, I don't, so Revelation would be like God giving to you new thoughts. Right. Versus inspiration would be like God breathing into you an understanding of something that's before you.

So, yeah, I would agree with Michael. I don't think we need revelation as we're reading the scripture so much as we need inspiration. And You know, just kind of an analogy, if you think about the way Jesus went about his ministry. Say the two disciples that he walked with on the road to Emmaus after the resurrection, right? And they didn't recognize him, but he opened the scriptures to them.

You know, it's a passage that Latter-day Saints use a lot because. Uh you know, the two disciples after Jesus. Leaves them, they say, Oh, didn't our hearts burn within us? But what did Jesus do? He didn't give them, you know, he didn't download to them new revelation, you know what I mean?

In the way that Mormons will typically understand that from their experience. With being kind of brought up with the way Joseph Smith went about things, Jesus didn't do that. He opened to them the scriptures that were already written. And I think that's a good analogy for what the. Spirit does with us.

And how the Spirit leads us into truth as we read and study the scriptures. If I could just expound slightly on what Paul's saying, too, because I really like what he said. It's true, Jesus could have. Gone into the synagogues and said, I'm the Son of God, and here's what God told me directly and revealed to me. But instead, you see him pulling out passages from the Old Testament and reading it.

You know, today this prophecy is fulfilled. In your ears, and you see the same thing with Matthew's gospel. You know, this happened that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets, and then quoting. The scripture.

So they're not going to. New Revelation, they're going to the scriptures. To verify everything that is happening. Yeah, perfect. One reason why I really enjoy the New American Standard Bible is that in the New Testament, whenever it directly quotes a passage in the Old Testament, it's in all caps.

So I've noticed that when I'm just reading through the New American Standard, there will be passages that I didn't even know were quoting the Old Testament. But you see in those caps and it gives you, it shows you immediately, oh, that's quoting the Old Testament. And then there's a reference in the notes to point you to that. which you might miss completely if you have a Bible that doesn't have the notes attached or if I didn't have that.

So that's one reason I really enjoy it. I think it's also a solid translation for the most part. But yeah, the Reformed kind of, they distinguish between revelation and illumination. And so when the prophets and the apostles, and the other inspired writers, they wrote scripture, it was by. Inspiration, or I think even a better term would be expiration because scripture is God breathed.

It's like the breath of God being recorded into scripture. And so, what God spoke is what was written down. And so, and so when we have the Holy Spirit indwelling us and we're reading scripture and we can understand it with new eyes, like Michael was relating to, after you're saved, you see the Bible completely differently. The Spirit illuminates your mind. Helps to understand, to uncover all these passages that you read before a million times, but you didn't understand them.

And the way, the kind of the object lesson, going back to that, that I like to use is the revelation that created the scriptures is kind of like a room. If you just imagine a blank room.

So, Revelation would be putting new furniture into that room piece by piece. And so, that comes little bit by little bit. And so, that's how we got scripture. There was progressive revelation from Genesis to Revelation. There were little bits of.

Furniture being added to the room. And nowadays, that room is completely furnished. It's completely finished. But to the one who does not know Christ, to the one who's still in their natural state, their fallen state. That room is completely dark.

The lights are off. You can't see any of that furniture. You might be able to get glimpses of it from light from down the hallway, but you're not going to be able to see clearly everything inside of it. And so. The Holy Spirit is like turning on a lamp and being able to illuminate all the objects in that room so that you can now see them clearly.

And so that's kind of how the What helps me to understand as a Christian now? I'm not saying that God's putting new pieces of furniture into the room. The room is finished. It's just that the Spirit is helping me to understand and to see all the pieces of the room.

Okay, so we've talked a little bit about spirit, learning by the spirit, study, balancing the spirit and scriptural truth.

So this might be worth bringing up again. And I saw another topic earlier in one of the discussion groups. Where they say that Christians suppose they have unity, but they disagree on this doctrine.

So, and we've talked about this in other episodes, but maybe it's worth bringing up again and again in this discussion.

So, what about when Christians have disagreements on secondary issues like the Sabbath or specific gifts of the Spirit and how they operate, baptism, understanding of passages of Scripture, things like that?

So, what about these disagreements? Does that mean that the Holy Spirit is not guiding us into all truth? And how do we reconcile disagreements between Christians if we all are indwelled by the same Spirit? I'll jump in here.

So I would I would suggest that the Teaching of the New Testament presupposes that there will not be unity on everything, that that is a future reality, not a present reality. And so, you know, if you read Ephesians 4:11 to 13, another passage that's often quoted by Latter-day Saints as evidence that we've got the apostles and prophets. But if you actually read it, it says, and he gave some apostles and some prophets and some evangelists. And some pastors and teachers for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ. Until We all come to the unity of faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God unto a perfect man unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

So That we will all come to that unity, come to that fullness is a future reality, not a present one.

So, you, Matthew, and I, and Michael, we're varying places in our understanding, varying places in our In our progress towards that measure of the stature of Christ, right? And so, like I said, the New Testament presupposes that that's the reality that we will be in. And there's no way in which that can't be the reality because there's constantly new people. Coming to Christ, and you know, there's babes in Christ, there's more mature Christians. And so that's a it's a it's a progression towards that unity.

And so, you know, for Latter-day Saints to point at that and say, oh, well, that's just proof that Protestantism or Christianity, whatever they want to. Point the finger at on any given day is not true. I mean, I would say it's, you know, look at your own glass house. There's not unity of the faith. With regards to Mormonism, either, right?

So if you think that your apostles and your prophets, Give you that, they don't. There's not even unity within the quorum of the 12 apostles in the Latter-day Saint faith. You know, you can go back and read. Vigorous disagreements that have been had among the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in the Latter-day Saint faith over the years. You know, Brigham Young demoted Orson Pratt from his position within the 12 Apostles, basically backdated the time at which he was ordained an apostle so that he would never become.

In their succession, the prophet of the church. Because they disagreed so vigorously over the nature of God. And And publicly, it was played out within the pages of the the Salt Lake Tribune during that time. Know it's there's no unity there either, um, so it's not a cudgel that they can use to beat us with. Um, but I would say that it's you know, it's fully understandable and right that the New Testament teaches that it's going to be that present reality until we come to a unity of the faith.

Yeah, thank you, Paul. And I think it's our third episode, um, following the first two. two episodes where we talked about what if Mormonism isn't true. We talked about what church is true then. And we talk about having unity as Christians on the essential doctrines.

Of the faith.

So there's not an absolute, complete unity in all things right now in Christianity, but we do agree and we do have unity on the essential doctrines.

So I would refer to that episode to go more in depth on that.

So great. Thank you very much, Paul. That was fantastic. How about you, Michael? What do you have to add to that?

You know, I think it's actually amazing when you think about it that we can have so many secondary. Disagreements, and yet there is so much unity in the faith. I think if the Spirit wasn't with the Church of Christ, then we wouldn't. We wouldn't have this unity. We wouldn't be able to look at each other and say, That's still my brother.

I mean, I think that it would just, we would be torn apart. And if you look at Mormonism, by contrast, every time there was a disagreement, what happened is there was a new sect of Mormonism where they said that the other one was, you know, apostate. And so there's all these different sects of Mormonism now. But with all the sects of Christianity, as much as, you know, as a Mormon, I tried to say, well, that proves that. that they're fractured and that they, you know.

Are an apostate organization, there's a really big difference because. We do all see each other as brothers and sisters despite these secondary issues. One of the chapters that I really like in the New Testament is Romans chapter 14. And I'll read a little bit of that here, starting in verse one: except other believers who are weak in faith and don't argue with them about what they think is right or wrong. For instance, one person believes it's all right to eat anything.

I think I'm in the NLT, yeah. I usually read the ESV, but when it's bedtime, I read out of the NLT for my son.

So I'm like, oh, this reads a little bit different.

Okay, for instance, one person believes it's all right to eat anything. But another believer with a sensitive conscience will only eat vegetables. Those who feel free to eat anything must not look down on those who don't, and those who don't eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them. A little bit down in verse five, in the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable.

Those who worship the Lord on a special day do it to honor Him. Those who eat any kind of food do so to honor the Lord since they give thanks to God before eating. And those who refuse to eat certain foods also want to please the Lord and give thanks. To God.

So the way that I've seen it described, too, is within the different. Denominations, there's it's sort of a preference thing a lot of times, too, that there's different styles of worship and that that is. Totally acceptable to God. It's okay to worship different ways, to have different opinions.

So, As far as the secondary issues go, I don't think it matters at all. You know, when I have a disagreement with somebody on a secondary issue, In Christianity, I don't think any less of them. In fact, I. Like to hear what their perspective is and how they came to that conclusion. To me, it's always valuable, that perspective.

So, yeah, that's just my thoughts on it. Yeah, that's great. And it's just something I thought a lot about as a Latter-day Saint. I was like, well, if I ever did leave. Become a Christian, you know, what are the 1 million denominations?

You know, the number is always fluctuating. What are the 50,000 denominations that I join? And I always thought it was like, well, maybe it's because one person doesn't want to give up this vice.

So they want to allow coffee in their church. Or, you know, they don't want to give up this vice.

So they'll allow alcohol in their church. But it's really not about that. I think when you talk to most Christians, they want to honor the Lord. At least that's their purpose is they want to honor God. They don't want to blatantly disregard or dishonor God.

It's just that we as fallible, we're still fallen creatures. We struggle to figure out how to do that. You know, we're trying to read and understand God's word and to find what's pleasing to him and to follow him. There's a passage that I wanted to read real quick. Psalm 119.

Not the whole thing because it's like over 100 verses, but Just a couple verses. Um Verse one, it starts out by saying this is English standard version. Blessed are those whose way is blameless, who walk in the law of the Lord. Blessed are those who keep his testimonies, who seek him with their whole heart, but also do no wrong, but walk in his ways.

So, this indicates that blessed are those who are blameless, who walk in the law of the Lord. They're striving to understand and study the law, which you need to do for study. You can't know the law just by. Osmosis, right? You need to either be taught it or to study it and learn it.

So, blessed are those who know the law of the Lord and strive to follow that law. And I think that's what most Christians are trying to do, where we have differences. It's just because we're struggling to understand what the original intent was of the passage and the application, like we've talked about earlier. It's not easy. The clarity of scripture in terms of the gospel is very clear.

Christ is the God-man, He came here, He died for sinners, repenting of our sins and trusting in Him. is how we are saved, but a lot of the particulars of Scripture are very difficult to understand. One of my favorite books is both epistles from Peter. But there's just so much going on there that I struggle to understand. And I read commentaries and I still don't quite get a grasp of what he's trying to say.

And Peter even mentioned that some things that Paul wrote were difficult to understand. I forget what that is. I think that's in 2 Peter.

So we're all just struggling. We're all trying as fallen humans to understand the will of God. And it's not that God's word is completely incomprehensible. It's just that sometimes We'll read a passage and say, Well, it could mean this or it could mean that. They're very similar, but slightly different.

And so we're all just trying to honor the Lord and our worship and our lives as Christians. I hope I didn't repeat myself too much or kind of going a little bit longer. I know we've kind of planned on making this about 45 minutes, but I know that Michael's kind of struggling with his allergies too.

So I don't know how much longer you can go, bro. You know, it's funny, though, because I was just thinking that. Yeah, the LES mindset will often say Of what you were implying there, like, oh, there's so many different viewpoints that scripture must not be, the Bible must not be. Plain enough by itself to come to any sort of a conclusion. But I think it should be said directly to anybody who is thinking that when it comes to primary issues, there is no question.

The Bible is very clear. And that is one thing that you can look at all of these denominations. In Protestant Christianity, but we will agree on the essential doctrines across the board. And that is something that should give you pause. If we really are so fractured, then how can that be the case?

Right. I was also going to plug Jeremy Howard. He messaged and said that he's made an updated version of the primary doctrines, secondary doctrines, and tertiary doctrines. He's made an updated list for that.

So go check out his website if you want to see the updated version. Um So uh Last of all, does anybody have any resources like books or sermons or things like that that could help Christians who are struggling to know how to balance scriptural truth and spiritual worship? You guys have any? Anything that you that helped you in your walk? Yeah, I think one of the things that has helped me the most is to learn to study scripture systematically.

Um, that's not to say, you know, that as a as a biblical studies guy, as a biblical theology guy, that I don't think that the culture and everything that is but you know, going on behind the passages is important. It is. Obviously, that's very important to your exegesis, but you do that so you can get to the systematics and understand. What scripture says and what the promises are. I think that's really important with regards to the Holy Spirit, understanding why the Spirit was given and that that information is contained within the pages of the Bible and what the Spirit's role is in the life of each individual believer and in the life of the church.

And so I think my recommendation would be to do a systematic study of what the Bible says about the Holy Spirit and what its role is. And that'll help a new believer understand, okay, so. What has God said that the Spirit will be doing in my life, and be able to separate that from sometimes what is. Uh presented as as what the what the Spirit does in people's lives. Um, one of the books I really like is you know, again, again, I'm going to plug my theology professor.

Dr. Jack Cotrell wrote a book called Power from On High, which is basically just a systematic theology of the Holy Spirit and what the Bible says about the Holy Spirit. And it's very clearly written so you can understand it. The chapters are organized well. And I really like the way that he presents material makes it easier for you to go back and check, okay, what's he saying about this passage?

And he does a good job with exegesis so you can understand what the word of God says. Yeah, thank you for that, Paul. You know what? It just reminded me: there was a series that was actually on Amazon Prime, which surprised me. It's a ligonier series, a preaching series.

And it popped up in my recommended videos. I'm like, whoa, this is weird, but kind of cool.

So I looked it up, but I'm not sure if it's on there anymore. But it was by Robert Godfrey, I believe. He's got the. No, not Robert Godfrey. Man, what's his name?

Uh he he basically goes into Sinclair Ferguson. That's it.

Sinclair Ferguson.

So it's a series called Who is the Holy Spirit. I don't know if it's still on Prime. I tried looking for it and I didn't find it just now. But you can find it on the Lincolner website. And he just talks about.

Who the Holy Spirit is, kind of like Paul, what you were saying, who the Holy Spirit is, you know, how he works in our lives, how he worked in creation. I also think that systematic theology, studying that is important. And I think. One big thing too is reading different different commentators that Yeah. on different purposes.

I think that Charles Spurgeon and Matthew Henry, sorry, name just blanked, when I read their commentaries, they're really focused on what is this trying to speak to the believer? How can this. Help a believer in their life and their walk with Jesus. And I think that's really helpful. I mean, it's not like they're disregarding it and doing the whole, you know, interpreting it however you want.

It's like they go straight to the application and how this can help a believer. And that's really helpful for that aspect, for the practical outworkings of doctrine. But then I also really enjoy people like John Gill, who's just like very intellectual. And he really dives into the particulars of scripture doctrinally. And so I think having different commentaries from solid.

Preachers, solid theologians that have slightly different looks at scripture or slightly different expositions. I think that can be really helpful. And of course, Um sitting under solid preaching. From your pastors in a church, that's also very important. There's not a Sunday that doesn't go by at my church where the pastors aren't urging us to repent, to turn to the Lord, and those who don't know Christ to turn to Him in faith.

And so, that gospel message is so important. You're talking about any book of scripture. Michael, do you have anything to add to that? Just a little. I don't have any books that come to my mind at the moment, but.

I do want to just echo what you said, Matthew.

Solid preaching at a church is absolutely amazing. Essential, especially for a new believer or somebody that is coming out of Mormonism. You know, I think, I can't think of a single time. That I have gone to church and it has not been. Edifying for me.

And the church that we go to now, they do a lot of verse-by-verse preaching. And it takes a long time to go through the books, but it is so rich with. With biblical knowledge, like I just feel like I'm being fed and learning a lot of things that I didn't know. And it's really good for me to kind of deconstruct some of the old ideas that I had before. But ultimately, I would say, Like, kind of to echo Paul, too, the Bible itself really is the ultimate book for that because what's What's scary is that I had people contact me sometimes, and they'll say, Well, my Mormon friend seems so spiritual and And they have all these spiritual experiences.

And is that the Holy Ghost working in their lives? And it's like, Well, I mean, there's no way to differentiate. You know, but that feeling that they have, I mean, they're so convinced that that is. The Holy Spirit. And what we learn in Galatians is that the Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

And so there is. Massive deception out there. And so, what I would say, in just This is my parting words here. Any revelation, anything out there that tries to Un anchor you. From God's word, from the Bible, is taking you the wrong direction.

And that's what's going on. Like, if people knew that. Then LDS missionaries going around to people's houses trying to convert them, they wouldn't meet with any success. I think that's really the answer to being led away out of the fold: anchor yourself to the Bible, and you really can't go wrong. that point.

Yeah.

That's great. I think that's a good stopping point. Yeah.

Outro for the episode. Matthew, you want to give him a preview of what we'll be talking about next?

Okay.

So, yeah, so for our next episode, I guess I should restart and say thank you. Um, so yeah, thank you, Fireflies, for joining us for this episode where we talked about balancing scriptural truth with spiritual worship.

So, next week, we will be talking about the Gifts of the Spirit.

So I know that's a topic that a lot of Latter-day Saints are curious about.

So we're going to approach that topic. And yeah, so we hope you'll stay tuned. We thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Outer Brightness Podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Please visit the Outer Brightness podcast page on Facebook.

Feel free to send us a message there with comments or questions by clicking send a message at the top of the page, and we would appreciate it if you give the page a like. We also have an Outer Brightness group on Facebook, where you can join and interact with us and others as we discuss the podcast, past episodes, and suggestions for future episodes, etc. You can also send us an email at outerbrightness at gmail.com. We hope to hear from you soon. You can subscribe to the Outer Brightness podcast on Apple Podcasts, Cast Box, Google Podcasts, Pocket Cast, Podbean, Spotify, and Stitcher.

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Stay bright, Fireflies. Whoa. To whom shall we go? You Ha the way Words of eternal life. And we Be happy.

And I've come to know That you are. The whole Holy One of God, the worthy fresh, the risen Son. Heaven and earth will pass away, but the word of the Lord endures forever. All this world is in decay. But the word of our God through ages reveal Lord, you promised that we as your church would remain upon this rock, and the gates of hell will not prevail.

Against us, cause you have power to keep your word unsport in purity. Heaven and earth will pass away, but the word of the Lord endures forever. All of this world is indecay, but the word of our God through ages remain as the rain calls down from heaven and waters the earth and bring it high.

So the word that goes out from your mouth will not return empty, but does. What you desire, Lord. We hear your word and believe in you. Heaven and earth will pass away, but the word of the Lord endures forever. All this world is in decay.

But the word of our God through ages remain of God remains.