What About Sacraments?, Pt. 1 (Articles of Faith Series)

As all things were made through him and without him was not anything made that was made in him was life and the life light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it. We were all born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in court in Salt Lake City, Utah, commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ based on biblical teachings name of our podcast outer brightness reflects John 19 calls Jesus, the true light gives light to every we have found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own. It comes to us from without. Thus, outer brightness. Our purpose is to share our journeys of faith in what God has done in drawing us to his son. We have conversations about all aspects of the transition fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between were glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around listening. However, this contrast for post-Mormons who are drawn by God, to walk with Jesus rather than turn away out of this brightness brightness wailing and gnashing of teeth. Here, except when Michael's angry that is angry. That is why Matthew, the nuclear colonist Michael BX Mormon apologist on Paul Bunyan. The fifth article of faith states.

We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority to preach the gospel and administering the ordinances thereof as a child who grew up in Utah and in the church technically convert at the age of 10. I grew up being taught that there are certain fundamental concepts that must be believed to be a part of the true church of Jesus Christ upon the earth.

One of these concepts was to have the proper priesthood and to receive the proper ordinances or else one could not have salvation.

What made me seriously consider receiving baptism as a child was a moment in my family and I were at a waterpark. I was thinking about all the kids near my age who were speaking of their baptisms preparing for baptism, etc. and I guess with all that water around us. It was just on my mind. I asked my parents so I can't get to heaven if I'm not baptized to have to be baptized. If I want to be with God.

They told me that yes you need to be baptized to get to heaven, however, that concept having a lot of influence in my thoughts at the time I didn't really know the implications of that fully but I remember seeing movies like all dogs go to heaven where heaven is shown as this place of happiness and rest with all the puppies and it sounded like a place I wanted to be. I didn't want to miss out on so I talked my parents will be baptized and we asked the oldest missionaries to teach me because I was over the age of eight and I needed to receive the lessons over course of several weeks and months I was taught the original LDS discussions. I don't member a lot about them, other than the flipcharts pictures of the celestial kingdom, etc. after sitting through all the lessons of being interviewed by the bishop and stake president I was recommended for baptism at the age of 10 I was baptized and confirmed by my uncle the same day as my sister went turn eight.

Not too long before my family was really excited for me and I was content with the idea that I was making them proud and being able to be with God in the as I started to question my beliefs in high school and turned to. A lesser activity in the church, things weren't as important to me. I became possibly agnostic or atheist for short time, but after feeling convicted of my sins around the age of 19, I return to full activity after studying LDS theology and history. One distinctive doctrine that made me seriously consider remaining active in the church and serving a mission was the cause of the priesthood and priesthood ordinances. The importance of it was conveyed to me in a story from LDS apostle Orson F. Whitney, which was quoted in LeGrand Richards seminal book, a marvelous work and a wonder the story is as follows quote many years ago, a learned man, a member of the Roman Catholic Church, came to Utah and spoke for the Stan of Salt Lake Tabernacle. I became well acquainted with him and we conversed freely and frankly a great scholar with perhaps a dozen language is at his tongues and he seemed to know all about theology, law, literature, science and philosophy.

One day he said to me you Mormons are all ignoramuses you don't even know the strength of your own position is so strong that there's only one other tenable in the whole Christian world and that is the position of the Catholic Church issues between Catholicism and Mormonism. We are right you are wrong.

If you are right we are wrong and that's all there is to it.

The Protestants haven't a leg to stand on.

For if we are wrong they are with us since they were a part of us and went out from us, while if we are right, they are apostates and we cut off long ago.

If we have the apostolic succession from St. Peter as we claim there is no need of Joseph Smith and Mormonism.

But if we have not that succession in such amount as Joseph Smith was necessary and Mormonism's attitude is the only consistent what is either the perpetuation of the gospel from ancient times or the restoration of the gospel in latter days" after reading a story to me. It boiled down to one of two churches, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or the Roman Catholic Church. So I decided to study the great apostasy by James E. Talmage, another LDS apostle. Upon reading this book and learning of the Roman Catholic Church as practices of infant baptism. Transubstantiation, the Trinity, being a doctor and a grew out of Gnosticism, which wasn't true at all but this is what was asserted by Talmage. It was so clear to me at the time the Roman Catholic Church had fulfilled the prophecy given in Isaiah 24 five.

The earth lies defiled under its inhabitants, for they have transgressed the laws violated the statutes broken the everlasting covenant since they have broken the covenant by baptizing babies and believing they were literally eating the body and blood of Jesus and the mass that only left one option to me. The LDS church. It must be true. When I learned that Joseph Smith and Oliver Cotter restored the practice of baptism for believers only, and confirmation. The laying on of hands to allow entry to the celestial kingdom and of the sacrament of the Lord's supper for the continued remission of sins by authority that was restored to John the Baptist and the apostle Peter, James and John. I was convinced, however, over the years I've learned many of these claims just weren't true. Isaiah 24 five wasn't speaking of the Roman Catholic Church performing for baptism is speaking of God's punishment of all the world because of the sin of Adam in the garden of Eden, Adam broke the covenant with God and disobeying him and thus all men are found guilty, and Adam unless they turn to Jesus Christ in faith, and while I still deny the doctrine of transubstantiation. I don't believe a special priesthood power for the apostles as needed to bless and receive the Lord's supper, also known as the sacrament in the oldest church or for water baptism. The topic of ordinances also called sacraments by many Christians is a topic that is difficult to understand for those who are LDS or leaving LDS church. How many ordinances sacraments are there.

What purpose do they serve.

Why do you need them. If you are saved by grace alone through faith alone. These questions and more will be discussed in this episode while the topic of the ordinances or sacraments of the Church of Jesus Christ can be discussed in very great detail. Over the course of many episodes will do our best to introduce the differences between the ordinances of the LDS church and the ordinances of the Christian church. We are Matthew, the nuclear Calvinist squirrel Jedi Michael the ex-Mormon Mr. Hyde apologist and grandpa Bunyan.

Let's get into it when you were a latter-day St., what was your understanding of the ordinances or sacraments in non-LDS Christianity and was there anything confusing about them. So Michael will start with you when I was LDS and I looked at non-LDS Christians and the ordinances that they performed. I didn't really understand why they were doing them knew that they did baptism.

And I thought that that was all well and good from an obedience standpoint, but because there was no priesthood attached to it and there was no covenant attached to it to receive eternal life.

I thought the you that baptism. For instance, was completely useless and I thought that their communion was completely useless because it didn't when you said covenant so I could appreciate that they were trying to do it because they didn't have the light and knowledge of the restored gospel.

I thought that those actions were sorely lacking and that it wasn't me sufficient to bring them to the celestial kingdom like us and you. I just kinda thought it was maybe a good talking point for us to lead somebody to the gospel, but that was pretty much the only's the only purpose that they served. And so with baptism when you looked at non-LDS Christians in terms of baptism, did you, so it's a similar thing with the sacrament you see saw that it was kind of like a it didn't really do anything to grant them eternal life stateside of Saad's, something it was ineffectual or ineffective or pointless for the most part, you know, I mean, I didn't think those things were commandments and the fact that those churches were doing those things was a step in the right direction. I would judge them more if they weren't doing them. To be honest, but yet in order to grant salvation. They work they didn't qualify saving ordinances okay good thank you. So how about you Paul what you think about this question or questions growing up in Utah. My main site into what other churches doing was for my dad because he was a convert. So talk about and have my family and certainly not have family talk about some of the differences between she is growing up as a Lutheran and his faith is a letter saying talk about how he was christened and how that's different than being baptizes as someone who is a believer in choosing to do so, and a little bit confused as a child about the whole concept of accountability just as arbitrary to me that some years old, I would be able to grasp right and wrong, wondered like him but they would.

I miraculously was like a measure of wisdom that I have before to think about things in those terms beyond his by way of my Utah time, especially since changing more and more time special slips heavily LDS. And so I didn't have much interaction with anyone who very many people who were not of my faith and certainly not in insight were attendance to their initiation rites or anything like that so is all it all came to what other latter-day Saints said about what other churches doing with regards to sacraments and ordinances is usually negative comment about using line for communion rather than rather than water. No wonder wisdom stuff so the teachings of the oldest church logical sense to do so, like I understood why they were opposed to infant baptism based on age of accountability still seems still seems weird that there was this arbitrary were suddenly everything something responsible for things and women were before. I don't think I understood like missing my dad talk about is I don't think I understood why some face did sprinkling for baptism of immersion and when I got older and to see those meeting challenges, works and screens against transubstantiation and some of the other of the Roman Catholic Church, especially, 101 after the great apostasy that I think I became a little bit more strident in my views touched on that before that I was growing up I had a largely positive you face. My dad when I went on on the mission to change me for a number of years. So you're on your mission yet more exposure to other points of view, the kind of veggies see it differently or did it reinforce what you already thought about it in terms of its is in Christianity, so that there was a time when my my trying to have an appointment scheduled with an investigator and investigator wasn't home and we went from so change in plans and decided to go tracting that afternoon and was this town through on the bus and was like a central square.

Beautiful Roman Catholic Church just on one side of the square. The square was completely aligned with life style apartment buildings that you know if you walked into the front of the courtyards in the back several stories of apartments all around the courtyard and everything was just meticulously Full of flowers and everything in the square side tracked out the area.

For whatever reason, I thought that that was what we needed to go start after an incident with the tractor went down there we decided I know we got the notion that we should present the book of Mormon to the priests for that from the Catholic church and so we went tracked him down so you need to bring them back back to sleep. It is his face to hang up key is what happens. We stay up all night every night working on your papers. I finally yeah that's probably what it was. Says is not on this call center guys hiccuping my connection where schools were servants of the devil. This just proves that that's if I can get on Facebook and it's like missing a purpose for Matthew started a new podcast. Oh, Matthew's answer is I will take out of Internet problems. Like in months and then it's going to happen next. There is an outlet for my exam the same thing.

The whole I hope not.

I'll be putting it doesn't know it. Actually it's interesting because I was sent a story about my companion and I decided to take the book of Mormon priests cutting out some parts of parts to the story right. So we got on the bus to go down there to square that I was talking about start tracting and trying to track down the spring well officially on the bus to go down there and then on the bus that I I'm reading grand Richards. Marvelous work and a wonder, and for whatever reason was feeling my own son just like we should totally get the book of Mormon to the Christian church and the bus to change to a different bus that would take us there and my companion steps off the bus he doesn't twisted his ankle does nothing suddenly like over, but worst pain as an collector to walk.

I have to help them over to a bench to sit down and recycle� This is totally proving this is what we need to do because were being spiritually attacked so the next bus and go down there and try to figure out how to get in touch with the Springsteen no go to the door.

The church next is the time of the day over and looked like the one side of the big church doors. There's a map of the church and then beside building directory language is the kind of indicates that it is the rectory and the partner circled over the side is that there's a jade with a bell on it ring the bell calms noncoms so this guy is walking pass of coursework to Americans missionary garb, so his scariest guys so you assess what's going on, training in touch with the produce that preachers of this church and said all his house for the person is the person just one block over on the street address so over there bring them down there and his secretary came out, assess what we wanted and we told him you know where I told her we were.

We wanted to see the Princeton talk to him about things and she still is pretty busy, so most important steps� Seven sets down his office and comes in his younger Princeton. All books everywhere and he comes and sits down across the desk from us assess what were doing their and launching like a knocking doors in your area come over and let me know what were doing and here's the book of Mormon, another Testament of Jesus Christ is Scripture is looking at us like were from another planet. Looks interesting.

Is that what he says to spend a lot of time with them as he was busy when he says to us that back on such an such a not Roman Catholic thing to say to us, but he's basically like running the Scripture I got the Bible which is is emphasis on church tradition and doctrine of the Catholic Church and so for him to take a stand on something that's almost akin to Solis footwear was interesting to me. Spend a few minutes with the left of the book of Mormon left and continue to track and attract an area with zero success. Decided a few days later, that would follow the square, where ordinances come into play. Decide the best way to follow up with them. To go to masses right so I did that on Saturday went and listen to them to mass and sat in the church and watched all about washed interests to his parishioners and that was an opportunity for me to see what other for exterior wind realize that you know that I can a grown up with and been given by C senses that all the Catholic Church is able but it was still kind of a beautiful expanse to go and sit and listen to listen to the masses into the singing: response and see no something that has been going on for centuries. So you'd asked Matthew if you know my mission reinforce my negative views of other faiths and in some ways both like a strident but it also can appreciation if I got the scene like that firsthand. So and so when you so I'm guessing it was like enough. It was just a normal church was elected cathedral or what was it the resident was a fairly large grill so when you we would you go inside usually see the baptismal did that bother you or you know where it will usually have the infants or the baptizer did have a large font that they use know they have the baptismal door you know I don't I don't know that it bothered me and I don't notice of the too much.

I was just on the architecturally okay.

I just set up interesting just because you know missionaries are thinking about like different churches and know where the one true church and everything else is no part of the quote unquote great and abominable church and like their minds be my mission. There were there's lots of beautiful architecture and cathedrals. I love visiting cathedrals and I mentioned it before but when the cities I was in Amiens and France as one of the largest. I think it might actually be the largest Gothic style cathedral and in Europe. I can't remember.

And it's just massive file can climb up dozens of flights of stairs or how many I don't care remedy. There were go to the top and look out. He could just see just for you know dozens of miles is really awesome. But what's what's the claim to fame is that cathedrals that I think I may be wrong but I think the specific reason they that particular cathedral was because the Catholic Church had claimed to have the head of John the Baptist. So they built this cathedral to house that head and it's you can go inside and it's behind little no prison bars almost ethical justice goal and has like a golden crown with some some paintings on their of certain things and John the Baptist lifelike when he baptized Jesus and I guess like once or twice every year they they take the head out the Catholic paraded in front of the town and things like that so it's really really fascinating but yet I love the architecture. I love chanting to I love I love just like Gregorian chances know what they're called like sometimes I'll just listen to them on YouTube and the just really really awesome like I, like, I can see the appeal of that, liturgy, because it feels very ancient.

It feels like you're connected to something very old as just a different kind of experience you know you kinda see a lot of a lot of modern evangelicalism is catlike similar in terms of our worship styles to see something to so radically different and unique it is. It's interesting, but that's for me it's a really been an appeal to go to you know to move toward that liturgy for my worship but I can see why it's appealing to words that either develop an appreciation for it so thatI just told you about that with that priest was in my third area of my mission in my second. My mission close to a town where the first basin from overbought by like the steps of the Ural Mountains 10th century they had built Fort kind of to protect themselves when they moved into this little town there now, but it wasn't bad but for some you can go and visit and see climb up the hills that built up throwing up on top of and there was a really old church. There the first is that there were Christian but the country was Christianized later on this churches is not in that town right near that person for so visiting places like that. I don't know is as latter-day St. You have the whole narrative of the great apostasy all about us is apostate. You shouldn't have anything to do with this kind of attitude but serving a mission appreciation for and there's a sense in which I felt connected with schoolwork Christianity started on my mission so you know I just talking about your foreign missions and all the crazy cool stuff they did like just brings my mind like going to a she did visit the Calvary Chapel in California is like ma'am there there style here is to wear shorts and sandals and Hawaiian shirts to church like ma'am that's something I don't think I can ever get behind just like so irreverent and hearing about what you guys on your missions like that would've been a totally different perspective for me because what I saw was just really casual close, you know, loud, worship music, and only family take God seriously like them. It's just all fun and games and you know they don't even realize the depth of the atonement. You know, I can just doesn't mean anything to them. That is interesting and that's that's one reason why I came up with that idea the other week about like making a separate upset about spirit and truth. John 424 passage we use a lot to show that know God's Spirit will father's spirit, but it's also just really powerful message in saying that we need to worship God in both truth and in spirit and I think that those cows experiences where he got the rock like the hard-core rock bands like people are not really focused on you know the real you know, we speak of liturgy, the Roman Catholic liturgy but like when you're just reading the liturgy and in terms of the songs are singing while at times it can be very shallow, whereas a lot of hymns are very deep. Theologically you know you can actually learn from singing the hymns so you know it's like this balance of what you can't just be strictly taking the gospel something like you know like a philosophical endeavor but you also can't just go straight for the emotions and so they'll be interesting to talk about then you mentioned to the reason about my mission is the fact that there is a different cathedral in that and I think is Belgium Inlet and Li�ge and in there. I think it was a cathedral might just be a church. I don't know. But you go inside and and in their baptismal actually has 12 oxen underneath, like nobility, is, and we saw that is like LDS relax see let you know it's a pretty old cathedral asked several hundred years like maybe even over thousand. It's very old and severe like a is like apostasy but see like something stuck out, you know, but corset going for an infant. You can like see like you know they probably just took like you know are our temple baptismal fonts and like overtime is made smaller and smaller unit of Catholic Buffy had in mind and I took pictures of up to but it was cool to see the school. Yes, I think I think is really good session.

It is like as latter-day St.

I felt similarly to you Michael when you're when you're talking with the passage you came to my mind was section 22 of doctrine and covenants, as is and is a clinical renal revelation in response to people had Artie been baptized so they know what to just make that happen, baptized happy baptized again opponent during the church and so that section says behold I say unto you, that all old covenants have I caused to be done away this thing and this is a new and everlasting covenant. Moving on, says wherefore, although Mashpee baptized 100 times. It availed nothing for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses needed by your debt works is because of your debt works that I have causes last covenant in this church be built up unto me, even as in days of old. So according to that section in his preclear and LDS doctrine that if you're not has by their authority and you're not doing it the way that's prescribed by their authorities, then it doesn't really count. Like you said Michael I kind of summer idea of that for Christians or baptizer took communion or Lord's supper Eucharist with you.

Whatever term they use.

I felt you know it's good you move they want to try to honor God. Trying to do their best but it doesn't ultimately count for their eternal life. It doesn't it doesn't give them forgiveness of sins because they don't have the right authority so I had pretty much the same view that you did get to go along with that doctrine and covenants 132 verse seven says you know the conditions of this law are these all covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, valves, performances, connections, associations or expectations that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise of him who is anointed as well for time and for all eternity to most holy by revelation, a commandment, the meaning of mine anointed. It's rewarding to basically say so.

Dumping the priest to efficacy virtual workforce in and after the resurrection from the dead sucking about marriage ceilings. But I thought that all the things that resembled saving ordinances that other churches did you know it's not done by the priesthood.

If it's not you know, done by the proper authority in stockinette have an effect in the next life right yeah exactly. That's really good passage for me for their view and there is there is a widely LDS discussion groups. Christian was asking LDS so if the church apostatized when there is a depth of the apostles. What about all these churches that were set up everywhere. You know, because it's not like there's only 12 apostles.

They went everywhere so you still have these churches kind of working autonomously to some degree but then once the apostles died what happened to these churches immediately. Just like start going crazy and owned did they stop being the church of those really good question because many think okay how would I answer that is a latter-day St. I think I probably would've answered well those who were baptized when the apostles were around and still had the authority will they would've had access to.

You know the ordinances but eventually people will die off, you know, there would be no valid ordinations to the priesthood and then when you don't have that, then eventually all devout preschoolers with Diane then basically it fizzle out, so was like an immediate, I would've answered I was an immediate apostasy in terms of ending all in the Christian church just instantly went off the earth is Camargo fizzling out fizzling out to the counter question that I would ask them you would pay me you know if that happened today. If some global accident befell the prophet in the apostles, and they all were off the earth the same time. Could the church recover. That's a great question.

Okay, thanks. Move on. So thanks for your input was the LDS view of their saving ordinances, something that was a friend part of your testimony as latter-day St. wasn't something that was a struggle to let go or overcoming your faith journey out of the LDS church so start with you to stumble, yes to both of those questions. So yes, it was a pretty firm part of my testimony when I was latter-day St. Yes, it was something that was a bit of a struggle to overcome in my turning out the elders churches five saving ordinances, baptism, confirmation, priest of the nation for males marriage is like crumbs on the ladder right the path to B dance studio ordinances is laid out pretty clearly before your letter sent you know exactly what you must do when completed for exultation is very well-defined and so I kind of doubt as to things I need to complete some things I need to do once I've done those things then no exultation is guaranteed, but at least I've completed all of the ordinances that I'm supposed to do what one in particular talk about the path out temple marriage was particularly difficult to unravel as as I had my fifth transition and I'll talk about on the lips of the planned output just generally share select marriages and final saving ordinances.

Ordinance of the church. If one excludes the second anointing, but in a sense once one Washington baptized the temple. And completed all of the ordinances and just after six Commandments and exalted so when you leave the idea of what does that mean now I was marriage me now that was a tough one to work through for Angela and Ida, walk through on that as I started to go through my faith crisis. I kind of came to view the temple ordinances as additions to the normal historic Christian sacraments of baptism and ends confirmation so things I noticed that the temple ordinances are not in the book of Mormon) on the New Testament. So what are they a restoration of kind of became the question I really wrestled through an example like Washington anointing.

This is sort of like confirmation of the Roman Catholic Church or Christianization in the Eastern Orthodox Church has has a different stated purpose right just like in the Roman Catholic Church, confirmation, doctors, Christian nations, is the seal of the Holy Spirit upon the believer and the other stress test on your confirmation following baptism. So the separate Washington anointing ritual is a completely different stated purpose and its historic precedent within Christianity and so those questions are things like, wrestled as I was working my way out is the temple ordinances are creations that I was left with the question okay so which and how many ordinances are actually biblical that's interesting he thought about those connections between temple ordinances and historical Christianity. The way I kind of thought was when I saw the washing anointing. II thought of when Erin prepared his sons to be priests in the temple, so I thought it went all the way back to the Old Testament times and then I figured, well, the Roman Catholic Church probably took that Encanto did it for their own thing so it's interesting that you were comparing a not to Old Testament temple, but to no historic churches took no following the New Testament just okay have a Michael. I would also say yes to both of those questions. My testimony was absolutely grounded in the saving ordinances. I really believe that needed to be performed. Like Paul, I saw the Mike rungs of the ladder things that needed to be done and then after they were done, I could.

I can get by by enduring to the end and being diligent about my repentance and things like that, I did go through quite a transition when it came to the ordinances, especially when forensic righteousness came into the picture because I started to kind of realize you know if if it's Christ's righteousness that that brings me to the celestial kingdom that she Artie underwent all of these ordinances and so I don't actually need any of them. And so, in effect, Christ became my saving ordinance if that makes any sense.

And so the problem with that presented for me was, you know, if Christ is my sacrament, so to speak than there was no need for restoration because you don't need the restoration to have Christ there's millions of people on the planet have a relationship with Christ and someone say kindly that we realized that the ordinances weren't valid in the church notes gets close.

His work and had to realize the church wasn't necessary before I could come to grips with the fact that they weren't essential in my life anymore see as finds leaving the church was one thing that I struggled with a little bit because Eli came into going to a Christian church and I did get baptized but there was so little liturgy around that. It just felt like it wasn't really cemented in like in Mormonism there so many layers of liturgy you get baptized and have hands laid on you for the gift of the Holy Ghost and then we receive the ironic priesthood and many receive the okay is a priest to get your Washington anointing's in the temple endowment and then the ceiling and is buried underneath all these layers of things that you think are doing something and so it just felt empty for a while after my faith.

Transition Selectman Ali had already done is get baptized and that's it was definitely a struggle for me so to follow up on that. Do you feel like like you said is it is pretty simple and most Christian churches. It's very simple terms of baptism, so at the time did you kind of crave something that was more involved or not. More steps to it at the time and did that change you know compared then to now, is it something that you come to accept. I think that you are somewhere down deep inside I still crave that a little bit after 32 years. I guess it just doesn't go away that that easily, but I want repentance to be this long drawn out process where I write all the wrongs that I committed and you know they take lashings for the things that I did wrong and you know you just doesn't make it feel a lot more legitimate. In some ways I think of ways to it's just my just my pride talking because this decision in me just wants to take some kind of credit you will see that I did something in reality it's it's all Christ and Christ did the work for me vicariously on the cross and when I came to believe that was imputed to me and that's just the simple truth and I am I'm happy to accept that. So I mean there are times I think when I crave it. But for the most parts I am completely content with things now okay excellent. Second, Artie talked a little bit pretty much in the intro how I felt. It was the priesthood and the ordinances were very important to me in my testimony, and they were probably the last chains to break before I fully know, gave myself to leaving her committed to leaving the LDS church and attending a Christian churches were the last things are holding me on because I thought well you know it doesn't matter really in the end, when it comes to your own salvation. You can teach all kinds of false things you know like I was out for a while I was reading the forgotten Trinity by Dr. White whilst taking the bus to my LDS Ward you know to and I was still teaching primary and didn't really perked my conscience because you know I was teaching things like keep the commandments and follow Jesus out things like that where I didn't feel like a conflict of interest, but then I thought, well, just the idea being there in the LDS church and pretending like you. Everything is fine even though I hadn't no major differences with church doctrine and teachings that I thought just being there made it seem like I supported it so but after understanding solar feeding the where were justified or declared righteous by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone like Reno just understanding that specially for Romans that's does count the linchpin like once those chains broke.

I was like okay well you know to trust the Bible because is what God is clearly teaching so if I stand before him and I'm going to be judged well if I'm wrong in the Bible is wrong with me. That's kind of the attitude that I had was by God's grace and understood that as a born-again Christian. Do you have the same view of the ordinances of the church of Jesus Christ as he did as a latter-day St., how do you think they've changed so Michael's go with you. The biggest changes that I no longer believe that ordinances make a difference when it comes to our justification that was kinda confusing about the ordinances. As you know, some of them were for eternal life like baptism and the missing missing of the Holy Ghost. But then what was making my transition is still hanging onto Mormonism but my fingernails in science a will the temple ordinances are for exaltation and that's totally separate from salvation so that we can kinda get away with saying I'm saved by faith alone or it's just baptism and that's all that I need but at this point, you know, I think. I think that Christ's grace is enough to give us whatever we need. I'm not opposed to, you know, the ordinances being useful. Still, not for eternal life. But, but for sanctification.

Okay great people. I will soon know is not the same. So Michael touched on this church that the ordinances are efficacious unless they are performed by some proper priesthood authority is only found this church touched on some quotes that New York Times fact, look back on that one specifically was was from Orson F. Whitney from marvelous work and a wonder right where he talks about the Roman Catholic who comes to Utah on basically presents the idea or stuff outside of the Catholic Church of Latter Day Saints church that is correct because you really claiming right it's either broken succession of a principal or its restoration.

Principal was lost in question reality of that conversation taking place, but some research on this on the Roman Catholic church is curious about where the second 531 refers to baptism because I was reading was listening to actually a lesson on the Roman Catholic catechism and referred to baptism for this is that I did originate right to work Catholic catechism, this is referencing the book of Mormon so it's got some ideas that produce both so start looking into that lesson. The first reference I found was the Council of Florence which is 20 17th medical Council 14 or something like that and was it was interesting because it refers to baptism those fastening that counsel later counsel knows it was talking about. How can baptize Sargon's should be produced, but it doesn't have to be a priest and layperson can baptize or perhaps even a second baptize thought was really interesting is totally was that the person who performs the baptism is what makes about efficacious which is very much in Latter Day Saints. So also I just also the Roman Catholic counsel was kind of making the statement that� Really doesn't matter that's worked out in the Catholic Church no later on in Christian history was done. I think it's a summer weather. Sacraments are efficacious or not injected the faith that exactly so.

I just know the Donatists were those those persecution have renounced their faith is not to protect themselves from authorities and fair baptisms are rather sacraments that they had performed no value church that wasn't the case wasn't of the sacrament is not based upon the person performed it so that's worked out long before Stritch comes on the same about anything like that when this is based on, I'm not. I'm not a baptismal regeneration, so I don't believe that you can just dump them in water strangling generation happens because to water or anything like that. There's nothing magical in the water not fully use this though that baptism is symbolic that God works in baptism of Christ is present spiritually so is sacramental but still thinking this you think you when you're talking about the various views of baptism and the Lord's supper over the centuries.

Yeah it's something really fascinating to for me to read into to all historical views and maybe maybe I should wait off to talk more about this until later but yet just to see all the different views of the Lord supper baptism and yeah when I when I was investigating the church and on outcome agnostic and can traffic out stiff my life yeah sod is what got me to the LDS church of the Roman Catholic Church just made sense to me that way. So I was little, think that way so similar to both of you.

I don't think you need a special's sacerdotal priesthood to perform the ordinances.

First of all, and I don't think that there an absolute necessity for eternal life. So but at same time. I also don't believe that they accomplish nothing whatsoever, because this is Artie been talked about. I think actually do accomplish something and I think most Christians do.

It's just that we disagree, perhaps lightly and exactly why we do baptism and what it what actually is accomplished in baptism I'm interested in hearing and maybe this is a question down the line somehow a bit on what you guys do you think that the sacraments accomplish. Yeah, let's see, let's let's do that and maybe I can ask something specifically like what do you think the sacraments accomplish little set up okay.

Why do we use different terms and then wiser disagreement is that a bad thing. And then we can say okay, now we've established that the most talk about our views when considering historical Christianity in the ordinances or sacraments. Why do you do you think that there is this difference in terminology among different groups and do you prefer one term over the other and why. So my understanding of the difference terminology is that it reflects the difference in beliefs about the nature of facts so sacraments or as a means of grace from God. Ordinances and is demonstrating a person's faith and are done in Jesus is that how you understand the differences to terminology yeah basically you need to write so-so questions do I prefer one term. Why person for sacraments, because the ordinances sacrament is having a real effect on the believer that God works so� Terminology makes more sense to me. Okay since you Michael well I disagree with Paul on this one but I still love them. I agree with his description of ordinances versus sacraments do have to say that I think part of the reason I don't like the word sacraments just coming out of the LDS church to where you know I just get triggered you know thinking like the sacrament set is the ordinance that repairs my broken covenant with God that I broke by sinning this week so I admit that's probably a bias in there somewhere to prefer ordinances and that's just because I think I believe that all the grace that we need is been given to us by Christ to be justified, so anything else that we do after that is going to be an act just symbolizing a change that is already happened in our lives not to say that I think an ordinance cannot do something to the believer. For instance, when I took I took the sacrament the first time limited communion for the first time in a Protestant church.

I literally wept because of the symbolism compared to what I was dealing with in the Mormon churches and monism site. Okay like this is said to repair my broken covenant with God and I done something wrong if I done something really serious. I can even take it. But in Christianity it represented God's unwavering love for me and in the offer of grace, regardless of why was it was that Christ died for me while I was still centering so definitely still had an impact on me was a big spiritual impact, so I don't think calling it an ordinance means that it's just the right thing that that doesn't do anything but on the other hand, I would say that it it's giving out grace in any way to bring us to justification that makes sense since it is interesting just because it's hard to really say well ordinance means this thing to every Christian uses that term or sacrament means this thing to every Christian. You also use that term because just with just every topic.

There's always good be a spectrum of of who understands us determine why they use it for that reason. And you know there's nuances that you kinda miss between tradition so yeah in general recently talked about how ordinances are basically there more symbolic and remembering of what God has done in the past versus sacraments watch our conveying grace to those who receive it and more signs of what God is done in the past, but what he also continues to do to the believer. That's, that's, compares and I think I found one website. When I was reading about the Lutheran view and is like A pretty good comparison. You know, and I'm not a strange duck because so the church I attended, and what identify myself as as either particular Baptist or reformed Baptist. There are many reform to say that I'm not reformed that's fine particular Baptist work just fine, but so I hold to the 1677 1689 London Baptist confession of faith and it's kind of like the grandson of the Westminster confession of faith have 1646, which is Presbyterian confession and I what's interesting is you can actually look up online. Just Google Westminster confession versus London Baptist confession and their nearly identical in an almost over 90% of the confessions are nearly identical, but there certain things that change in this website. They tabulated all the changes so like if the words are common to each one are black if they added on renal for something unique and one confession of the arts in blue and if there's something slightly rephrase or change that.

It's in red so it's really it's really cool to compare but I'm looking in chapter 28 of the Westminster confession which is related to chapter 29 of baptism in the London Baptist confession, so there kind of you know that there is slight different enumerations with their chapters. But there but there similar to both talking baptism so paragraph one of the Westminster confession says that baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament ordained by Jesus Christ not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible church, but also to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace of his in grafting into Christ of regeneration, a remission of sins and of his giving up unto God through Jesus Christ, to walk in newness of life, which sacrament is, by Christ's own appointment. To be continued in his church until the end of the world and the Baptist confession. It's slightly shorter and soreness of the West Windsor confession says baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament and in the London Baptist confession says baptism is an ordinance of the New Testament ordained by Jesus Christ to be unto the party baptized a sign of his fellowship with him in his death and resurrection. So they took that part out where it says also to be solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible church that took apart out.

But what's interesting is that when you really study a particular Baptist theology. We do believe that baptism is an initiate an initiatory right to enter the church so you can't really take every you know parts.

He took out you can't really say oh that means they don't believe this because it's not necessarily the case. It may be emphasized elsewhere. Anyways I'm getting into like a big deal here but basically they called an ordinance in our confession, but when you think of the word ordinance means something is commanded or ordered by higher magistrate right it comes from the word or to ordain so it's it's ordained meaning is commanded by Christ for his church. So in that sense, yes I I'm totally fine with the word ordinance, but the same time I don't. Similar to both you where it's not simply just a symbolic act.

It's not something that's that's another way to witness your faith in Christ or to be symbolic of something only, and I do believe that it's a sacrament in the sense that God does convey grace to those who receive it, and in the reformed tradition with your Baptist or otherwise.

They always see these these rights. These ordinances are sacraments, they see them as they see them it only as efficacious through faith. So while Presbyterians baptizer infants.

They do not believe that it is ex opera X (upper auto meeting in the in the work working I remember correctly, recently just means when you do it, it necessarily conveys what it represents and Presbyterians don't believe that Baptist on either we see that we see, is contingent upon faith. If that make sense when they baptizer infants. They do believe that it does baptized them into the visible church, but it doesn't convey to them what it represents. Meaning being engrafted into Christ's salvation.

Forgiveness of sins, etc. and same thing at Baptist, we see that as it's It's efficacious only if you have faith and ideally for a particular Baptist. You should only get baptism and the Lord's supper to those who have a valid profession of faith and that you know they show signs of of fruits of repentance and in faith because we it's based on our review of the covenants we have a Baptist have several variations of covenant theology, but we see that it's preserved for those who are in the new covenant and we see that the new covenant. According to Hebrews 8 is reserved only for those who show signs that they are regenerate that they are part of part of God's people part of God's elect. So I have no problem so to wrap it all up. I really don't have a problem with either one. I know that some some baptism. A church prefer to call it an ordinance, not a sacrament, and sometimes I wonder. I don't know for certain, but I think there might be a historical thing behind that because like I said, the theology of the particular Baptists they had no problem with this concept of God conveying the benefits of redemption through baptism for those who have faith in terms of sanctification growing in faith and overcoming of sins, remission of sins. He things like that so but at the same time. Maybe they wanted to separate themselves a little bit from the Roman Catholic Church. Maybe there is that reason they are not sure why they chose to use the word ordinance not sacrament because I took all references to sacrament out of the London out of the London Baptist confession where it existed in the Westminster confession so I set out historically when they did up but I don't think is really a problem with either one. And in most other groups like with Lutherans, Anglicans. They call them sacraments also. I think this is mostly Baptists, Anabaptists, Quakers like us Quakers only do it anymore, but I think they're the ones with the call ordinances. I think most of the people call sacraments, but there might be other groups: Mrs. ordinances must be the Baptist in me then is saved by Paul sci-fi came off sounding aggressive.

That was unintended.

No worries. As you crack your knuckles lead him into submission will you still with Christian Michael. You just don't know how to express several times that the mind. My intent is to have my conform to the word of God. So if I'm wrong on something in the school change ditto from HMA next step only the direction that I'm trying to go beyond stills Yost trying to guess that defined what I am exactly there's things that I don't I don't grasp fully yet so I know in a year.

I could meet somewhere totally different than what I am right now I think it's always good to always be reforming always conforming to the word of God, we thank you for tuning into this episode of the outer brightness podcast. We'd love to hear from you.

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